I agree there's nothing wrong with "dirty" jobs, my concern as a parent is more about which jobs are going to be most likely to be made redundant with technological automation.

His mother keeps $100,000 which she would have spent on college. He strengthens his real life of independent choices. In the next four years of reading, he can have the education he wants and will remember.

People teach themselves. There is nothing special about classes.

I would disagree with Andrew. There is something very special about classes. It's not the learning that takes place, but the degree. It's the validation that you "learned" something. Before my degree, I was dismissed. I didn't learn much in college, but I did get the key that opens doors.

Ironically, just about the only things that I learned in school were to send a thank you note when interviewing for a job and to use the most expensive paper for my resume. Before college, I would have thought of it as an unnecessary luxury, but after spending all that money on an education, $3 for a sheet of paper didn't sound extravagant at all.

He may be happier as an Ironworker now, and that is fine. But passing up college and a degree? lemme know how he is doing after that job-ending injury in ten years, a wife and three kids and he cannot support himself on his high school education.

He makes a very good living and has a job he enjoys, which puts him in a very small minority of people. He can take college classes any time he wants. There's nothing carved in stone saying you have to do it immediately after high school. He's not "passing up college and a degree" just because he isn't doing it at 22. If he gets tired of what he is doing, he can pursue another career later. He may find an employer who will help pay for his education, too. IF that's what he wants.

And who says he will end up with a wife and three kids, anyway? He might be smarter than that.

The description of "ironworker" is pretty broad. Is he pouring iron in a factory or is he learning how to be a machinist, welder etc.

There is some money to be made in those jobs and there aren't enough of them. Look at the want ads, There are many that have those ads almost permanently in help wanted section of the paper.

I wonder how much of the degree vs. non-degree salary divide is caused by large numbers of unskilled labor. What would the degreed vs. master craftsman (plumber, welder, electrician, carpenter, etc.) divide look like?

He can take college classes any time he wants. There's nothing carved in stone saying you have to do it immediately after high school. He's not "passing up college and a degree" just because he isn't doing it at 22.

Chances are he'll be a better student taking them later. I was a much better student taking Master's degree classes than I ever was taking my Bachelor's degree classes. I was more motivated and I had some real-world experience to draw upon.

Conan: "Chances are he'll be a better student taking them later."

It is better than just chances - numerous studies show that "returning" students have higher GPAs that "traditional" students.

Further, these same studies show that not only do the returning students have higher GPAs; but, other students in classes that have returning students have higher GPAs as well.

While I haven't seen any studies that conclusively state why this is; I'm sure that your experiences are among the reasons why - better motivation, more focused, and more life experiences to help with the learning - along with a better understanding of yourself and what you want in life.

I've also always wondered if it wouldn't be a good idea to let some students drop out of high school, work for a couple of years, and then return to high school to finish instead of making them stay in school or get a GED years later. They might, just like their college counterparts, have an good influence on their high school classmates when they return.

This seems to work for college students; why wouldn't it also help junior and seniors in high school?

Agreed, Charles. I took some IT classes at a local college when I was in my mid 30s. Quite a few of the students were in my age group and had similar work experience. A lot of the value in the classes came from comparing notes with other professionals.

It was a lot different when I got my bachelors degree right out of high school. The classes were huge and everyone was just there to get a brain dump and a piece of paper. There weren't any interesting discussions in class - those took place in the dorm rooms.

Jen pretty much sums it up, although perhaps not in the way she intended. She admits it wasn't the learning, but the credentialing that was a benefit. I'm not sure whether she is overlooking the fact that once you get to a point where it's pure credentialing, it's no longer worth doing, and the problem is a system that requires too many rubber stamps. 20 years ago you were kind of stuck with it, but I think it's obvious to everyone by now that the system has failed, and it is changing into something different. Abandoning the rubber stamps in favor of useful skills is only a good thing for everyone.

Lobster, I've been thinking about this, that you said: "My concern as a parent is more about which jobs are going to be most likely to be made redundant with technological automation."

It kind of slides in with Conan said about "skilled vs unskilled" labor, and what makes a master craftsman.

If "carol's" son is smart and motivated, the innovating technology in his field will only benefit him. He'll be one of the people creating the standards for the machines, making sure they aren't slacking on the job, learning to fix them, and coming up with new ways to make use of them. If he already enjoys his job, it doesn't sound like they are making use of his talents by making him stand and press a button all day.

My neighbor is a master machinist. Works as a security guard now.

Turns out there's skilled labor in China and India, along with our tax base, now that I think of it.

"My concern as a parent is more about which jobs are going to be most likely to be made redundant with technological automation."

Automation would first replace jobs which are: repeatable, in a controlled environment, and profitable to replace.

This is why manufacturing were some of the first ones to be replaced. The main thing saving many service jobs is they aren't currently profitable to replace. People do it cheaper than replacing with machines.

As for what will not be replaced easily. Non-repeatable. Every task is similar but not the same, while auto making is very automated, repairs are not, each repair is different.
Not in a controlled environment. outdoors and off road, so much of final construction is safe. It may be more and more prefab but final construction, or unique construction, should be safe in foreseeable future.

It's good that the mother saw the benefits of her son's occupation.

This was a wedge that split my parents apart, as my mom looked down on my dad for not having a college education. Even though he worked construction and eventually started a successful business, she felt humiliated when comparing him to the doctors and lawyers and the cultured set.

When she did decide to leave for a guy w/ a college degree, things didn't turn out all that great.

Conan,

About the skilled vs. unskilled divide, it is huge. The same applies to college education. The difference between engineering and science and liberal arts is huge. Once you remove the engineers from the equation a college degree is not cost effective.

And I don't say STEM for a reason. A degree in computer science is quickly becoming non-cost effective. While it is a useful skill, it can easily be learned without a degree and job applicants have to provide a portfolio of past work. Just a degree is almost useless.

And for those worrying he will injure himself and be unable to support his wife and three kids, why isn't she supporting him? Equality and all that. Also, I suspect you know little about modern metal working. The mills with poor illiterates pouring steel are gone from America. You will find some in China and Russia, but people and regulations are too costly to do that here.

I like to say: "It's OK if you don't want to go to college. What's not OK is using that as an excuse not to read, especially newspapers, OR as an excuse not to be multi-skilled, OR as an excuse to bum off your family indefinitely."

Even college graduates need to work on being multi-skilled - even if it means spending most of their spare time on useful hobbies rather than useless ones, such as watching sports on TV. After all, you never know when you're going to lose your job and need skills that you have but you never used before. (Speaking of losing jobs, I just saw something on CBS Sunday Morning about how a lot of malls are being torn down because so many people shop online):

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/a-dying-breed-the-american-shopping-mall/

Quote: "No new enclosed mall has been built since 2006, and Lewis predicts fully half of all our malls will close in the next 10 years."

I think every parent of a lazy teen should say: "If you don't want to go to college OR trade school after high school, you will have to move out immediately, get a job, and never ask me for money again. See? No matter what you choose in life, you'll have to get great grades to convince SOMEONE you're a real worker. So, get going."

"My neighbor is a master machinist. Works as a security guard now."

Yeah? My neighbor has a master's degree and he has no job at all. Lost it in the recent troubles so to speak. He is quite bitter about it. Has a Masters in Psychology from my understanding. He has let me know that it is completely unfair that I have a job and he is unemployed. He is highly educated while I do not even have a degree.

He's right, I don't have a degree. I have one semester of college which was interupted by my leaving to work on an overseas project. My training was provided by Uncle Sam by way of the Navy Nuclear Power Program which I used to get a job in the measurement of flow mostly hydrocarbons. I make a low (very low) six figure salary but have made this type of salary for almost 30 years. I could lose my job tomorrow, but because of savings, would survive for a good while. I also have a pretty good chance of finding another job in my industry. Would I take a pay cut? Maybe but I could afford to do so because I have savings and retirement options already in place.College is not necessary but skills are. They are out there for those willing to take advantage of the opportunity.

I ♥ Posted by: causticf at June 29, 2014 3:07 PM

My understanding of the word "ironworker" is someone who works in the steel-erecting construction trade. I have usually heard "steelworker" to refer to someone who works in a mill. There are steelworkers in my family background. These days jobs in steelworking are very hard to get, and although there have been a lot of improvements, it's still a dirty and dangerous working environment.

"Jen pretty much sums it up, although perhaps not in the way she intended. She admits it wasn't the learning, but the credentialing that was a benefit. I'm not sure whether she is overlooking the fact that once you get to a point where it's pure credentialing, it's no longer worth doing, and the problem is a system that requires too many rubber stamps. "

I think that was Jen's point; it's credentialism. And at least for right now, it is what it is. Barring changes in employment law, I don't see that changing anytime soon. What may happen is that there may be a reshuffling in which schools are regarded as most credible by employers, but I don't see many of them being willing to look at alternatives to a college degree -- if anything, it's going the other way.

"No new enclosed mall has been built since 2006, and Lewis predicts fully half of all our malls will close in the next 10 years."

Agree that enclosed malls are dying. But open courtyard and strip malls seem to be booming, at least around here. (I still can't figure that... why would you want to be running between stores in the cold and the rain when you could be indoors? But I seem to be in the minority there.)

My neighbor is a master machinist. Works as a security guard now. ~ Posted by: Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at June 28, 2014 2:40 PM

Yeah? My neighbor has a master's degree and he has no job at all. ~ Posted by: causticf at June 29, 2014 3:07 PM

Whether you get a degree or go the skilled labor route, it is incumbent upon you (and only you) to make sure your skills are relevant to the existing job market and that your skills stay relevant.

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I knew a woman who worked on a legacy system for a major bank. She was offered a few chances to take classes on the newer systems to which the bank was converting, but turned them all down. Shortly after her last opportunity to upgrade her skills, the bank completed the switch to a newer system and laid her off.

She was very despondent about that, having worked most of her career for that bank, starting at one of the smaller banks consumed by a bank later consumed by that one.

She blamed corporate greed for her predicament - leaving out the multiple offers she had to learn the new systems; leaving out the fact that this bank had been one of the few entities still using the antiquated system so she knew ahead of time that her skill set had an expiration date.

With a skill set not applicable to the job market, she was having great difficulty finding a new job in systems when I lost touch with her.

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I worked with a guy whose son went to college and got a liberal arts degree. Then he got a job making custom furniture. Later, he started his own custom furniture company and was doing quite well, last I heard.

For him, his education was just that - an education.

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I used to live down the street from a certified Porsche mechanic. He owned several Porsches, a big house, and made a good living.

While had no college degree, I'd wager the amount of study required to reach his level of certification would rival many a STEM program.