You're right, Amy. Of course you're right! You're offering a perspective based on mutual needs, a clear understanding of the difference in male and female nature, one perhaps peppered with a little Talmudic sensitivity... (Prager has said much the same thing, and he sure isn't the type to have figured it out on his own.)

You're right.

But Dood published a spreadsheet.

Is this a guy thinking warmly, or even clearly, about how to get laid?

He emailed a spreadsheet. She published it.

I have no idea what the backstory is, but I suspect there's a very good chance he had tried to talk about this with his wife earlier.

And look at her response, it's one of disbelief, " According to his 'document', we've only had sex 3 times in the last 7 weeks, out of 27 "attempts" on his part." She doesn't really deny the spreadsheet is accurate, but darned if she is going to concede the point that it is accurate. Sometimes without a spreadsheet, or similar, well people can be in denial a very long time.

I read the Reddit post as soon as it went up. I'm kinda suprised it blew up like this, as that sub isn't frequented much.

People attacked the shit out of that woman. You have to keep in mind Reddit is a young demograpgic & male dominated.

The guy e-mailed it to her work email and then never responded to any of her calls/texts. She was away on biz.

Sorry that's not how you address this.

The comments on reddit are surprisingly rational. There is the issue of sex - too infrequent, the wife is oblivious, but she needs to wake up and deal with it.

Then there is the issue of how he got her attention on this issue: sending a spreadsheet to her work email. If (if) this is the first mention he's made of the problem, then his communication style sucks, and that's a problem. However, there is a good chance that he has tried to talk about the sex, and his concerns were ignored. In that case, this spreadsheet is perfect, because he finally got her attention in a way she couldn't just blow off.

Either way, some of the stories on /r/deadbedrooms make for depressing reading...

> He emailed a spreadsheet. She published it.

Oh.

Well.

Still...

Dick move.

> You have to keep in mind Reddit is a
> young demograpgic & male dominated.

☑

I guess my question is, why does this lady feel gross and tired all the time? Is something weird going on with her crotch that makes her feel gross... swamp vagina, incontinence, diarrhea, etc?

She mentions working out a lot, is she working out -too- much?

In any case, she sounds really tired and like she's not doing well, and maybe that needs to be looked into.

Charting your partners sexual performance = get your affairs in order the end is near.

@NicoleK: Swamp whaaaat? Do I want to know what that is?

And yeah, a spreadsheet? Seriously? That is kind of a weenie thing to do. And he did it badly, too. If he really wanted to make an impression, he could have formatted it better.

We're missing the back story.

He got a month's worth of data, sprung it on her, and she reacted.

The analytic thing to do is for her to make her own spreadsheet, of all the things she's asked him to do and how often he's "put out". Honey, could you pick up your dead socks? Honey, could you run out and get the groceries from the trunk? Honey, want to come to the gym with me tonight?

Kinda unfair warfare. He should have given her a choice of weapons before the duel.

7 weeks ago he started keeping notes.

This argument is obviously far longer than 7 weeks. (As most of Reddit noted.)

From her excuses he lists - none of which she disagrees with/claims are inaccurate - it's obvious there's a problem here. (Have to watch the end of a "Friends" Episode? Lemme guess, it's the one where Rachel doesn't sleep with Ross.)

I applaud him, even if people are missing why he's not answering her back (Which would be meaningless. She's calling to yell at him, not apologize.) He's busy packing her stuff in boxes.

It's "guy thinking" - I'll PROVE my point - and he did. Her reaction was to run to the Internet for justification. It didn't go her way. Which of course re-justified her outrage and she deleted her post (from a throwaway account.)

And her self-serving descriptions made it even plainer that she's swimming down a river in Egypt. From 3-5 times/week to 3 times in 2 months? "Oh, it's just temporary until I don't feel so fat, (hey, pizza buffett!) and work quite so much (hey, trip abroad!)."

It was a dick move, but a smart one from the guy's perspective. It'll be interesting to see if we ever hear from them again.

She's looking for validation, and he's proving a point. Guy/girl thinking, Mars/Venus.

I think what she's missing is he's not trying to fix it anymore. He's just proving - concretely - why he's quit.

The internet. Always so respectful of people's pain.

http://i.imgur.com/4lMqKGk.png?1

Oh, and Crid?

But Dood published a spreadsheet.

No. Dudette PUBLISHED it. He just compiled it and kept it between them.

She's the one who published/publicized it.

Oops.

There was an article in a British newspaper on this story which drew over 1,500 comments. A couple of interesting things about the comments:

1. It appears every person who reads British newspapers is innumerate. This couple coupled 3x in 44 days and nearly everyone remarking on it rendered it "3x a month"; he requested her attention 28x in 44 days and this was rendered by females commenting as 'pestering her every day'.

2. They are a childless couple in their middle 20s and she accedes to him once-every-two-weeks; I'll wager that that is about 25% of par for people in their domestic situation and more characteristic of people twice their age. Every couple is different so one should not be prescriptive about this, but clearly he is dissatisfied.

3. Some of the female posters were critical of the wife but the bulk offered one of the following rejoinders:

a. Tough. You get what she wants to give you.
b. He must be a lazy slob around the house.
c. He should ... [insert behavior you would expect were the couple newly dating].
d. He's a pest and that turns her off.
e. He's 'immature'. [N.B., usually a nonsense statement and here as well].

4. In an implicit rejoinder to point 3e, it was noted by many posters that the party who published the spreadsheet was the wife.

5. Male and female posters made declarative statements that she has a paramour. (Uncharitable, but unlike the shizz about his household chores, actually derived from the information at hand).

If the editors of that particular newspaper wished to persuade me that they draw their female readership heavily from the ranks of self-centered and disagreeable women that do not merit any man's investment, they've succeeded.

Is this a guy thinking warmly, or even clearly, about how to get laid?

No, it's the shot across the bow.

It may not have been his best idea, but it got her attention.

The analytic thing to do is for her to make her own spreadsheet, of all the things she's asked him to do and how often he's "put out".

I suspect the "yeses" will be more frequent. But not as frequent as her "noes".

Reminder: if your man isn't getting it at home, there will come a point were he'll find it with someone else. Maybe a hooker, maybe one of your girlfriends who does appreciate him, maybe the guy next door. And when you find out, and you want to scream at someone for the betrayal, go to the bathroom and look at the mirror.

Yell all you want.

Reminder: if your man isn't getting it at home, there will come a point were he'll find it with someone else.

Not necessarily, but it is a structural defect in their domestic life that will have some sort of expression. There are people very adept at eating the costs of all that can go wrong in daily life (my grandmother was one), but the man is telling her that that sort of patience is not something at which he is practiced.

Publishing the spreadsheet is 21st Century foolishness.

I could have been that guy and it lead to divorce. In the divorce she complained we did not have sex enough. At that time I could have used a spreadsheet, but I no longer cared.

Marriage. One of those things I'm glad I never did.

No, she doesn't put out enough, and he is a jerk with his anal little spreadsheet.

It's funny this came up, though. A friend of mine has been reading Dr. Laura's 'Care and Feeding of Husbands,' and we both agreed with a lot of it - and we are both female. Dr. Laura is too religious for me, and seems contemptuous of women who don't crave marriage and children. But if you DO want to get married, her advice is spot on.

For the record, my sweety and I don't live together and only see each other on weekends. But I never tell him no.

There is a big difference between triggerable and triggered. I am triggerable, but rarely triggered. My husband shows me his penis and says, "Do me." I usually do as a gesture of love, but rarely get into it myself. He touches me about 1/10 times. Since women usually need more foreplay, not less, it doesn't always work out so well. Lubes cause a reaction and so does dryness. Therefore, I need recovery time. I just had a hysterectomy and the pathology report showed blisters and chronic inflammation, but I've never had any VD.

I've asked for back rubs and touching, even non-sexual touching. I don't get it. My husband doesn't like to touch or be touched. Even a little less criticism helps. He has been working very hard on that point.

I don't know this couple's situation, but I can tell you that relationships are two way streets. You can't tell much about relationships from a single spreadsheet.

Jen, call your gynecologist's office and ask for referrals to better lubes than what you are sampling. Let them know you are having allergic reactions and try something else. But you have a husband problem (less criticizing - oh lawd!), and omg his lack of initiative in the bedroom is disturbing. You need a man, not a teenager, and that's all that he is. He sounds just from your short description, like a self-centered ass who thinks he's the shit and you're blessed to be with him. I'm sure others here will have some advice, but my suggestion is to let him know you can't keep on this one-sided street and get to a sex therapist together. You won't regret it, if he'll go, but I doubt he will. I firmly believe that most women who don't have regular sex with their husbands are not also climaxing themselves, and shame on the man for acting like you should be able to get yours in a minute or less like they do on TV. Put it this way, if I KNOW I'm gonna end up with a smile on my face from sex, then that gives me much more incentive to say yes. Best of luck, dear.

and he is a jerk with his anal little spreadsheet.

Why? If they had more conventional discussions of this in the past and she gave him the brush off, is he still a 'jerk'?

Art Deco,

Does the spreadsheet strike you as a particularly effective way to get laid?

"If I KNOW I'm gonna end up with a smile on my face from sex, then that gives me much more incentive to say yes."
Gooseegg

Yes!

The discussions that people are suggesting don't work. They just give a partner, usually the woman, one more thing for her to-do list. Leaving them with a smile is much more effective.

"Does the spreadsheet strike you as a particularly effective way to get laid?"

Sounds to me like the husband in question is beyond that point. Whatever has gone on between the two of them, they've both escalated so massively that it looks to me like divorce is inevitable. (FWIW, to me his worst transgression was not necessarily that he made the spreadsheet, but that he passively-aggressively emailed it to her while she was on travel and not in a position to respond. And he sent it to her work email... oy.) Lesson: not everything in life comes with an undo button. It is in fact possible to piss someone off so massively that they never want to speak to you again, and all the apologies in the world won't make any difference.

"He touches me about 1/10 times."

Yikes. Not good. Any guy should be able to give a half-decent massage, if only to get things started. People need touching.

I assume you're people, of course.

I'm with you Jen. Hubs and I are older (mid 50s). I inititate sex and never say no, but in 10 years, he has initiated 3x. He "accomodated me" every other day in the beginning, but I'm lucky for once a week now. Most of the time it goes, slap me on the ass, grabe the lube and 3 minutes later he is done. No kissing, damn little touching. He doesn't like to be touched, say it hurts or tickles, will hug me briefly, kiss me (quickly, closed lips) and scratch my back. I'm easily orgasmic for a woman, but damn, 3 minutes just isn't long enough.

Now I have met a man online 6 months ago, in the same boat but reversed. Wifey ONLY wants non sexual touching, tells him that his daily need for sex is abnormal and that its perverted, that his wanting oral sex is disgusting at his age. She accomodates him sexually once a week to "keep him satisfied so he won't cheat". Egads, the guy is just 62! And her therapist says she doesn't have to do anything sexually she doesn't want to and he needs to be satisfied with that.

Nothing more than good friends talking ATM, but the emotional connection is growing, and I'm starting to think that he and I are both married to the wrong people. He has mentioned it, too. We both keep trying to talk to our spouses. He started couples therapy with his, I initiated several discussions with mine about this deficient area. He promised that he would try harder to meet my needs, but every time he stops, saying that no one man could keep me satisfied.

So now both guy friend and I are are seeing therapists individually. We both have decisions to make: stay in our sexually unfulfilling marriages and stay unhappy, find someone local to cheat with, (neither of us wants to cheat, and we live 800 miles apart, or dissolve our marriages and see if we are compatible. Makes it even harder that we both love our spouses and they are great partners in all other ways.

*sigh*

Does the spreadsheet strike you as a particularly effective way to get laid?

I'm not a pick-up artist and, in this circumstance, neither is he. He is her husband sending a missive in one episode of what one might wager is a multi-episode argument.

Sounds to me like the husband in question is beyond that point. Whatever has gone on between the two of them, they've both escalated so massively that it looks to me like divorce is inevitable.

If one, the other, or both are fools (which may be the case).

Keep in mind that she published the spreadsheet, not her name or his. Her reaction was less than introspective, which does not bode well for working things out.

(FWIW, to me his worst transgression was not necessarily that he made the spreadsheet, but that he passively-aggressively emailed it to her while she was on travel and not in a position to respond. And he sent it to her work email... oy.)

Means nothing.

Nothing more than good friends talking ATM, but the emotional connection is growing, and I'm starting to think that he and I are both married to the wrong people.

You need to put an end to this correspondence. Now.

"Is this a guy thinking warmly, or even clearly, about how to get laid?"

What makes you think that this is the beginning of the situation? I don't think that the few weeks covered by the spreadsheet was the beginning of this issue.

>You need to put an end to this correspondence. Now.

Smh, but I agree with Art Deco on this one. You don't need to have anyone else in your head when you're deciding whether to end a marriage. Everything else is great, but you're so deeply dissatisfied with the sex that you would throw away a long life built together. Work on the sex. With your husband. He's demonstrated he would at least try, right? You're imagining that everything that does work great with him would also be that way with another man, plus the bonus of great sex, but life just ain't that way.

>>Is this a guy thinking warmly, or even clearly, about how to get laid?

No, he is thinking about divorce. He already knows he isn't going to get laid.

Sorry, I left that part out. When we each agreed to seek individual therapy we closed contact. I cannot make an intelligent decision if my hormones are over-riding my common sense, and neither can he.

As for "You're imagining that everything that does work great with him would also be that way with another man, plus the bonus of great sex" ...LOL. He's 62, I'm 56. No rose colored glasses here! We are both set in our ways. That's why I said "see if we are compatable". There is an even chance we would have great sex but not tolerate living together.

Do I want to throw away the last 8 years I have built with hubs? Not particularly. Is my need for sex important enough to end the marriage? Makes me feel guilty to even contemplate it. But as Amy said:

"Sexperts will tell you "a sexual mismatch needn't mean the end of a relationship" -- which sounds good but tends to play out like being hungry for three meals a day and being expected to make do with a handful of pretzels. Expressway to Resentsville, anyone?"

The resentment and unhappiness are already there and growing each time he turns down an offer of sex, or cuddling or a blowjob, or gets himself off but not me, every time he moves away when I try to kiss or caress him and get him interested. Every time he says he will do better, and then refuses to try more than once to improve, until we have another 2 hour conversation about my need for intimate connection, I should just let it go, shrug and say "Well, he is trying"? He tries once and then says my need is un-natural, not his. He won't see a doctor to rule out a physical problem.

In all other ways, he is a great partner. He cooks me breakfast before work, he does the laundry, mows the lawn and waters the garden and weeds, pays the bills, makes sure my car is running properly, suprises me with thoughtful little gifts. He has been with me through deaths in the family and surgeries.

He tells me he loves me several times a day. He verbalizes that he finds me sexy, and desireable. He doesn't look at porn, says he is not interested in men. But 4/5 times I try to initiate, he pushes me away. Same excuses on the spreadsheet above: I'm tired, I haven't showered, I'm not feeling 100%, I'm ratching the races, I'm watching TV, a neighbor might drop by.

I'm trying to fix it, but if I can't, should I just let it continue and stay in the marriage?

You don't need to have anyone else in your head when you're deciding whether to end a marriage.

No, that's not the reason you should stop corresponding.

--

He's 62, I'm 56.

Makes it even harder that we both love our spouses and they are great partners in all other ways.

[no comment]

No, he is thinking about divorce. He already knows he isn't going to get laid.

Assumes too much (though that may explain the refusal to speak on the phone).

I think you've painted a better picture of the climate (didn't realize there was no contact with the other guy), and it is really sad. There is a lot of incompatibility here, and either he has a medical issue or he truly needs to seek therapy solo and then with you to fully understand what is non-functioning with him. Because I don't think he falls in the range of normal, at all. Seriously talking with a urologist who has SEEN IT ALL would be first line. Dear gosh, I really think the man needs some testosterone but everyone thinks that, and honestly, that can just make you a crazy angry man if he has an underlying issue with sexual intimacy with no release for the testosterone. I can only suggest that maybe you have a discussion about what exactly this means to you and what steps you are considering if this does not change. Maybe it will inspire him to seek out some help. Only you can answer if it will be worth it to stay in the marriage or leave if all else fails, but I do think it is easier when you leave to look back and know you did all you could. By the way, there is always the option of an open marriage if he would be willing to look the other way. If all else fails, that is.

I sometimes lurk /r/deadbedrooms as a sort of educational tool, as sort of a cautionary tale of what not to do. When you've been married and/or living with the same person for years and years, there will be dry spells, and there will be medical and emotional and communication issues that cause things to taper off; it may not be intentional, or really be anyone's "fault," but it can breed resentment like crazy, which can lead to passive aggressive bullshit like this spreadsheet business. He wasn't looking for a discussion or a solution, he was looking for a fight.

The poster may have been surprised by the information; she may be in denial, they may have talked about it or not, I don't know. But Spreadsheet Guy pulled a very specific trigger when he sent that email, and as some of you have pointed out, I doubt it'll actually solve any of their problems. Maybe he knows that, and this is just his first step out the door.

No real winner in this one.

which can lead to passive aggressive bullshit like this spreadsheet business. He wasn't looking for a discussion or a solution, he was looking for a fight.

The term 'passive-aggressive' does not mean what you think it means. The wife's conduct over seven weeks(if correctly reported) might qualify.

It's passive aggressive in the sense that he sent it and then shut off all communication instead of sitting down with her in person like he had some balls and discussing it as an adult should. The spreadsheet itself was not passive aggressive, but his presentation of it was.

"Is this a guy thinking warmly, or even clearly, about how to get laid?"

That seems like the problem. Monogamy for most men is not a natural urge. Men give up being with (or attempting to be with)multiple women in order to get stability and a regular sexual outlet without "trying to get laid".

If he constantly has to think about "how to get laid" it goes into the category of too much work.
Why bother staying with her? If he has to stay in woo mode 24-7, why bother wooing her? Woo other women and enjoy a variety of sexual partners.

A friend related to me advice her grandmother gave her when she got married. She said that men have a choice every day to come home. If you don't give them a reason to come home to you, they will find a place they want too come home to.

The spreadsheet itself was not passive aggressive, but his presentation of it was.

No, it was pretty straight up aggressive.

"Here are my facts. To your work email. (Which you read.) Bye."

The not answering might be considered PA, but I don't think even then that's really PA. What would he say? She's gone for 10 days. What's there to even talk about until she's back? (assuming he's still there.)

We can read between the lines with her description and her answers to some answers, and see that she's in denial, and it's highly unlikely this was the first time he brought it up.

And when the reddit group didn't wholesale condemn him, but rather started asking pointed questions and saying "He's got a point", she ran.

I doubt she ran to think about it, or if he'll stick around - but maybe she'll be lucky and will.

You don't need to have anyone else in your head when you're deciding whether to end a marriage.

No, that's not the reason you should stop corresponding.

-----

What reason then? Now I'm really curious.

See, David H, Jen's dilemma when "My husband shows me his penis and says, 'Do me.'"

Somewhere in between flowers and "do me" is a nice middle ground of flirtation that makes girls feel desirable. It's a big area. Not hard to find if you're willing to.

So you're basically saying men opt for monogamy to have regular sex, but are too lazy to flirt or act like it's, I dunno, still a relationship, and would so then return to random sex in the hopes of finding someone else to come home to who will let him poke her without foreplay. Brilliance doth overfloweth.

(her comments:

http://www.reddit.com/user/throwwwwaway29

)

Yes David, a woman needs to give a man a reason to want to come home and a man needs to give a woman a reason to be happy to see him. TWO way street.

Hey, I'm not defending her, and I'm almost positive that this isn't the first complaint she's heard. But I'm inclined to agree with those who think that he sent the email as more of a "goodbye and go to hell" statement than a "we need to work on this" statement. Not a very bold and brave move to send an email on the first day of a long time apart and then cut contact as a way to make your case. Her comments don't indicate that they argued before she left the house, and if that's true, it sounds like he just seethed to himself until she was in the cab and then hit send. That's a pussy move, no matter how you look at it.

Hey, I'm not defending her, and I'm almost positive that this isn't the first complaint she's heard....it sounds like he just seethed to himself until she was in the cab and then hit send. That's a pussy move, no matter how you look at it.

Another time and another place you may just be able to get from one end of the paragraph to the other without contradicting yourself.

It's passive aggressive in the sense that he sent it and then shut off all communication instead of sitting down with her in person like he had some balls and discussing it as an adult should.

You have an overly prescriptive sense of how he should speak to his wife. Keep in mind they've had 28 enumerated exchanges on this question over 44 days.

That's a contradiction, how? When I was referring to the time immediately before she left (see: "before she left the house"), and not their entire relationship? Because it doesn't seem he complained that day, before she left; you take that as me saying he never complained one single time in their relationship? Are you being deliberately obtuse, or are you just being a dick?

You have an overly prescriptive sense of how he should speak to his wife. Keep in mind they've had 28 enumerated exchanges on this question over 44 days.

Which is why I said I think he's not trying to solve anything here, that she's likely in denial as to her own actions, and and that this whole thing won't end well. Not sure why you're arguing.

Why bother staying with her? If he has to stay in woo mode 24-7, why bother wooing her? Woo other women and enjoy a variety of sexual partners.

I think your conception of the nature of men is overly mechanistic. Still this adds clarity. The disposition on the part of this woman's advocates to suggest he behave (and is obligated to behave) like an aspirant boyfriend is striking.

My mother's contemporaries conceived of their husbands as an architectural feature of their households and as having certain prerogatives. I'm not speaking of the sexual sphere, but of the other aspects of domestic life that children see. Jonathan Franzen in one of his novels had a scene which captured it ("that's between Chip and your father..."). In contrast to that is an understanding of the male as a pet or an employee or an ATM machine whose position in the household is contingent and probationary. That paints it too starkly, but there are elements of that conception in some of the commentary you see on that British newspaper site.

That's a contradiction, how?

First you acknowledge that they must have spoken before. Then you refer to his communication as a 'pussy' move. If he's already taken the subject on, how is he a 'pussy' here? He's just using a different conduit.

What reason then? Now I'm really curious.

It's an occasion of sin, Kady.

How is it not a pussy move? Sending an email like that, one he knows is going to start at least an argument, as she's on her way out of town, then refusing to answer his phone or acknowledge her in any way? Is that how a mature adult communicates? It's like breaking up with someone with a text. If she saw him before she left the house that day and he acted like everything was fine, then sends that email while she's on her way out, it's cowardly, at best.

I can only hope that wasn't his first broaching of the topic, and that he actually had brought it up face to face. I fully expect it had come up in the past, but can't know for sure of course, and neither can you.

[i]It's an occasion of sin, Kady. [/i]

Am I to infer that, in your opinion, my corresponding with a man who is not my husband is a sin? Or is it the developing of an emotional attachment and sexual attraction to man that is not my husband that is inherently sinful?

Since I am an atheist and reject the notion of sin entirely, I had not even considered this point.

[i]It's an occasion of sin, Kady. [/i]

Am I to infer that, in your opinion, my corresponding with a man who is not my husband is a sin? Or is it the developing of an emotional attachment and sexual attraction to man that is not my husband that is inherently sinful?

Since I am an atheist and reject the notion of sin entirely, I had not even considered this point.

Posted by: Kady at July 22, 2014 11:59 AM

Looking at it from an atheist's point of view. The concept of sin is Judeo-Christian shorthand for "bad things to do that destroy social bonds, martial relationships and hurt other people."

The mere fact that you are looking to another man to meet your emotional needs says something about your loyalty to your husband. Regardless of if it ever becomes physical.

This guy online is pushing your buttons in a way that colors your satisfaction with your marriage.

You also mention that you are fifty something and have been married to this particular man for eight years.

Highly unlikely that your current marriage was your first and only relationship.

The better possibility is that you have had other previous relationships fail, and now are looking to escape from yet another less than perfect union.

You should be asking yourself, why, with too little sex being the only problem, you have so little loyalty to, and affection for, the man you are married to.?

It has a lot to do with values. A concept that a number of atheists don't seem to have a problem with.

Hmmm

---
You should be asking yourself, why, with too little sex being the only problem, you have so little loyalty to, and affection for, the man you are married to.?
---

I have loyalty and affection for my husband, and stopped all contact with the other man when I realized my emotions were becoming dangerous. Until I figure out if we can come to terms between my husband's needs, and mine. There will be no more contact.

No, this isn't my first marriage. My first husband was "failed" by standard definition and ended in divorce. He was physically abusive, and I got out, taking the kids with me. My second husband had ALS and died when I was 44. I don't consider being a widow to be a "failed relationship". This is my third husband.

I would agree that your definition of sin being shorthand for a longer term is correct, but how you are applying it is not.

---
The mere fact that you are looking to another man to meet your emotional needs says something about your loyalty to your husband. Regardless of if it ever becomes physical.
---

So one should not have any emotional needs that are not met by ones spouse, else it is a "sin"?
(Lit. One's spouse should be able to meet each and every emotional need in your life, no matter which need it is.)

Or could you mean that a married woman is allowed to have emotional needs that can be met by a woman, but never by a man? (Lit. One can have female friends, but never male ones.)

Both of those open up an entirely different can of worms, (1) whether or not men and women can be platonic friends and (2)can any one person really be your everything? That you need no one, at any time, for any reason: no parents, siblings, friends, children.

And when is the sin in the thought and not the deed? Is thinking about stealing a sin? *Thinking* about murder, adultery, bearing false withness, not honoring ones parents, etc., is sin?

Makes all sexual fantasies sins, doesn't it? Someone not your spouse is meeting an emotional need in you.

Let's put it this way...it started, my guy friend and I realized that it is not honorable or fair. We stopped. I am trying to improve my marriage, I assume he is trying to improve his. After an amount of time determined by my therapist and I, I will make a decision. My guy friend may be available, and he may not be, and I have no way of knowing, so my decision is not contingent upon him or his.

The whole reason I shared my story in the first place was not to have stones cast at me for being a mental adultress, but to let people know that it is not only men who do not get their needs met. There are women in the same boat.

I'm surprised how many of you are calling this passive aggressive or weak willed. I'm equally surprised at those who think this is an attempt to fix things.

His actions make perfect sense to me as part of an ending. He sent this and took the phone off the hook. When she gets home the divorce papers are probably on her desk. His things are out of the house and the bank account is empty and closed. If she is lucky he didn't shut off any utilities in his name.

There was nothing passive about this, it was plain old aggressive. And this was not a 'pussy' move. Her reaction was obviously not desired. That is why he cut off communications.

I had not even considered this point.

So I gather.

Sending an email like that, one he knows is going to start at least an argument, as she's on her way out of town, then refusing to answer his phone or acknowledge her in any way? Is that how a mature adult communicates?

You evaluating him according to quite idiosyncratic criteria. The trouble is, your standards are bad standards.

They're 26 years old. They've got time if they want to take it.

I actually shut the phone off and forget it routinely, and it also shuts itself off on unpredictable intervals. That having been said, I see nothing objectionable about letting her stew for a few days. Depending on the individuals involved, it will not necessarily do any good to hear her shrill voice over the phone. We do not know how she processes anything. At this point, given her online postings, it might be best if they did not speak directly.

He may not care what she thinks at this point (which is wretched as they've only been married for two years).

Perhaps he stinks in bed? And they don't love each other anymore?

I have been in no mood, and either got into it or did half-way through. Because he knows what he's doing.

He may not care what she thinks at this point (which is wretched as they've only been married for two years).

We can agree on this, at least.

"The whole reason I shared my story in the first place was not to have stones cast at me for being a mental adultress, but to let people know that it is not only men who do not get their needs met. There are women in the same boat.

Posted by: Kady at July 22, 2014 1:07 PM"

Glad you realized that it was counter productive.

Men and women having fantasies about other people is not the same thing.

The thing to be feared from these emotional connections with other people is that they get you thinking grass is greener thoughts, which is apparently what you were doing.

He was probably looking for some nookie on the side, as a lot of men are. That would appeal to most men more than divorce.

If I don't miss my guess, you were not the only woman your internet boyfriend was corresponding with. He was fishing my dear, and you were just one of many fish in the sea.

I get overtly or subtly hit on, three or four times a year, but I am not in the market for developing an emotional attachment to someone other than my husband, so I enjoy it, then ignore it. And yes, women DO development emotional attachments through sex more readily than men do.

I am beyond the point when I really need to have my ego stroked about still being attractive to the opposite sex.

They say "with age comes wisdom" and I suspect that means that you are better off when you get old enough to not let sex be the driving force behind how you run your life.

> Posted by: Old RPM Daddy

☑


> It was a dick move, but a smart one from
> the guy's perspective

Not everything that's masculine is manly.


> It may not have been his best idea,
> but it got her attention.

"Attention" can be had for the twitch of an eyebrow, but affection has a price.


> he is a jerk with his anal little
> spreadsheet.

Excel? Anal should just be one column. (Boy, should it ever!)

Har! (Heh.)

Sorry.


> It's a big area. Not hard to find if
> you're willing to.

Yeah... Right. (snicker)


> Since I am an atheist and reject the notion
> of sin entirely, I had not even considered
> this point.

Aw c'mon, you still can identify evil, right? And malfeasance?


Ppen nailed this one down in early going:

> You have to keep in mind Reddit is a
> young demograpgic & male dominated.

These are folks, callow more than foolish, who either [A] haven't figured out how to share lives of adult kindness or [B] haven't figured out how to leave strangers out of their drama when they've both chosen to live without tenderness.


They're quibbling like kids in the back seat of a minivan on a long drive to Grammaw's. It's not how loving grownups negotiate this most central comfort.

"Both of those open up an entirely different can of worms, (1) whether or not men and women can be platonic friends and (2)can any one person really be your everything? That you need no one, at any time, for any reason: no parents, siblings, friends, children."

You know, all of this philosophical bullshit, is clearly clouding the issue for you. In short,you have outsmarted yourself.

Did you and your husband agree to an open marriage? If so,then go for it.

If, not, then either ask, renegotiate the contract, or shut up, and avoid temptation.

When you do the honorable thing,you can leave or stay with a clear conscience.

"He was probably looking for some nookie on the side, as a lot of men are. That would appeal to most men more than divorce."

When I used to hang out with the party scene of homos in West L.A. I was a little taken aback how many married men canvassed the place for young guys.

They'd buy them jewelry, coats and shoes. Take 'em to fancy vacays, and eatin' establishments. But as soon as they were gonna be found out they'd dump their little boyfriends and renew their vows with the wife..

Pussy or ass on the side will always have takers.

Sorry that's not how you address this.

It is if nothing else has worked.

The guy e-mailed it to her work email and then never responded to any of her calls/texts.
(though that may explain the refusal to speak on the phone).

Maybe he was planing on responding to the last three of twenty seven attempts

Does the spreadsheet strike you as a particularly effective way to get laid?

No. But let me explain it in a way you might understand it better being a woman.

As he isnt getting laid anyway he may as well have the emotional justification of being right.

Perhaps he stinks in bed?

If a man stinks in bed there are two possibilities. One he doenst care, two (and more likely) the women in his life didnt want to hurt his feelings and he had no reason to get better.

Guy may not be prone to reading instruction manuals, but to use a video game analogy, we dont mid cheat codes. So please ladies own your sexuality, stop faking orgasms and tell your men how to get better. You are only depriving yourselfs, plus if the guy refuses to learn you know you have a douchebag and can dump him that much faster

My husband doesn't like to touch or be touched.

I get that, I dont like anyone touching me ever for any reason with the exception of intimacy with my partner. Even then is makes my skin crawl if they touch me before I realize its them.

Makes it even harder that we both love our spouses and they are great partners in all other ways.

If they dont care about having sex with you, why would they care if you have sex with other people?

If your husband doesnt want to do you find a guy looking for NSA sex. Just tell him first.

Hubby says that I am too picky and complain that he is too much so he has given up trying.

I don't understand why he can't give me a decent backrub without jamming my spine. I tell him to avoid that area.

One time I told him to stroke my leg 5 times. To my surprise, it worked. He did it and it actually activated my libido. Perhaps I need to be Very specific. Of course, then I seem like a traffic cop. I never fake an orgasm.

I have to ask him if he has washed his hands recently because if they are salty they burn me. He keeps getting lubes and condoms that I'm allergic to. Then he's upset when I bitch or quiz him. He tells me that he was careful and "got the good stuff." Passive aggressive perhaps? Perhaps it's just me being "picky."

He told me it was teh lube you deserved, not the lube you needed.

I was responding to the original letter writer. The letter writer did not have any complaints about the husband other than he was pestering her for sex. She DID NOT complain about a lack of foreplay. She was pissed that he sent her a spreadsheet that showed his dissatisfaction with her lack of interest in regular sex. She was angry that he had the nerve to complain in a way she didn’t like.

Of course a successful marriage functions a 2 way street. If they guy just shows his penis and says “do me” with no foreplay than DUMP HIM if won’t change!

“See, David H, Jen's dilemma when "My husband shows me his penis and says, 'Do me.'"
Somewhere in between flowers and "do me" is a nice middle ground of flirtation that makes girls feel desirable. It's a big area. Not hard to find if you're willing to.
So you're basically saying men opt for monogamy to have regular sex, but are too lazy to flirt or act like it's, I dunno, still a relationship, and would so then return to random sex in the hopes of finding someone else to come home to who will let him poke her without foreplay. Brilliance doth overfloweth. “
“Yes David, a woman needs to give a man a reason to want to come home and a man needs to give a woman a reason to be happy to see him. TWO way street.”

Actually, speaking as a man, I blame the husband.

Why do you ask? Because he made the mistake of getting married in 21st Century Amerika. That's the biggest, life changing mistake right there. For the men, want sex? Companionship? Friendship? Then stay single and don't have kids. So when the classic attitude pops up and your needs are not being met, all you have to do is say "goodbye".

Then he's upset when I bitch or quiz him. He tells me that he was careful and "got the good stuff." Passive aggressive perhaps? Perhaps it's just me being "picky."

Posted by: Jen at July 22, 2014 3:01 PM

Take a shower together before sex. Lots of fun, and if you have allergies and condoms are your preferred method of birth control, why don't you just buy them, and skip the nagging?

I mean, why do you care, what the 60 year old lady checking you out at Walmart thinks?

Because he made the mistake of getting married in 21st Century Amerika.

Shuffling through the comments at that British newspaper was depressing. A marriage is an element in the social architecture and the solidity of one element secures others. Those women commenting - if their expressed attitudes are manifest in their mundane behavior - are unsuitable for a marriage as it would have been understood in 1949. Their attitudes are congruent with those attending a service contract, not marriage.

"Those women commenting - if their expressed attitudes are manifest in their mundane behavior - are unsuitable for a marriage as it would have been understood in 1949."

I haven't read the British news comments, but most women in America are not marriageable. I speak for the under 40 crowd. So I don't know how it was in the past or in 1949. But in my experience the vast majority of women my age are plain not marriageable.

A marriage is a partnership. It requires give and take from both sides. But the legal system is so skewed in favor of women that most see no reason to compromise after marriage (or in many cases even before). So you get attitudes like SM777. Which are completely reasonable if somewhat sad.

Once upon a time men had many more rights than women. So men had to court the woman as a way of showing they would not abuse their power. The tables have turned. But many women don't understand they now need to court their man and show they won't abuse their power.

I would not say 'not marriagiable', but rather incapable of crafting a maintaining a marriage which can survive a certain amount of sturm and drang, in part because they regard men as disposable.

Some other husband would have sucked-it-up, some other couple might have very little coupling by habit, but here you see this disjunction, and looked at objectively their situation is anomalous given their age and domestic situation. The reaction of the women commenters was to deny there was any problem in the marriage other than (1) his attitude or (2) his execution of an imaginary task list or (3) his not playing to some caprice of hers (also imagined by these women commenters). Customer is always right, eh?

These women may be married by law, but if their expressed preferences manifest the atmosphere in their house, they do not have anyone in their house who can fulfill the social role of 'husband' in their house and do not recognize such a role (which, if they did, would require from time to time self-examination on their part, which these broads don't do).

Given that the marriage rate has been declining since the 1970s I'm obviously not the only person who think 'not marriageable' is the right term. Would you marry someone you thought 'rather incapable of crafting and maintaining a marriage ...'

There have been numerous research papers, books, as well as news paper articles written about the 'marriage crisis'. Most of these focus on the effects this has on women. Even for the researchers and reporters the men are not significant.

Note, I didn't apply this to the spreadsheet poster. With such a small slice of information I can't tell what is really going on in her life. But like I said above, I think the home was empty and the divorce papers were on her desk when she got home.

Given that the marriage rate has been declining since the 1970s I'm obviously not the only person who think 'not marriageable' is the right term.

The marriage rate has been declining mostly for poor, poorly educated people. If we're going to cite stats, let's do it right.

I'll just toss this out there. It is hard to pass up really amazing sex. Pretty easy to decline when the sex is boring, painful, awkward or unsatisfying.

No MonicaP, if you wanted to cite stats right you would have cited a stat. Instead you have more of a platitude than anything.

War broke out, the poor hardest hit.
Global warming is coming, the poor will be hardest hit.
Earthquake strikes, the poor suffer most.
Marriage declining, the poor hardest hit.

You are right that the rate of marriage declined most for the poor and uneducated from 1970 to today. But that trend seems to have halted. After all, a rock can only fall so far and then it hits the ground. Marriage rates have declined for all income and education brackets over that time period. It just fell most for the lowest quintile.

What is of some interest is current trends moving forward. With college attendees as well as graduates currently breaking ~66% female and the common desire for women to 'marry up', where will these women find men with more education/income? With the current divorce/child support laws what incentive is there for men to generate income?

I understand SM777's argument even if I don't like it or follow it. And I think it had disastrous implications for society in general.

With college attendees as well as graduates currently breaking ~66% female

Where, at Evergreen State?

==

I'll just toss this out there. It is hard to pass up really amazing sex.

A man's vocation is to support his family economically, keep his kids under some kind of control and attempt to see they learn a trade, and remind his wife from time to time that she is appreciated (see Mike Royko on this last point). It's no one's vocation to be 'really amazing'.

Art deco, I never said it was. I had no genders in my previous statement.

Art,

Since 1970 the college gender ratio has trended towards women. This wasn't that big of a deal when women were a severe minority on campus. Around 2000 we hit the 50/50 mark for the US average. In 2008 we were at 56/44 female/male with strong regional trending. Public schools in South Carolina, Arkansas, Alaska, Mississippi, and Rhode Island had surpassed 60% female with most private schools trending over 65% female. I couldn't pull up ratios for 2014, but if I recall right the US has continued to move more female.

A quick google search should turn up quite a few articles about this if you are interested. It is a major concern for college administrators because once you pass the two girls for every guy mark you often see a sharp drop off in applicants.

No MonicaP, if you wanted to cite stats right you would have cited a stat. Instead you have more of a platitude than anything.

Hey, I have no interest in citing stats. I don't care much about that today. I was pointing out that simply saying things like "marriage rates are dropping" means nothing at all unless you break down the demographics. The same goes for divorce ratea.

Carry on.

A quick google search should turn up quite a few articles about this if you are interested. It is a major concern for college administrators because once you pass the two girls for every guy mark you often see a sharp drop off in applicants.

The ratio of women to men in baccalaureate granting institutions is not 2:1 in private or state institutions. Someone gave you some bad numbers. The correct figure for total enrollment in post-secondary institutions is 43.2% male, not 33%; the figure for the baccalaureate granting subset is almost identical at 43.5%. For private baccalaureate granting institutions, the figure is 41.1%

My figures are from the National Center for Education Statistics. See Digest of Education Statistics table 303.60.

Art deco, I never said it was.

Let go of my leg, sister.

Interesting. It appears the US average gender ratio has settled since 2008. Thank you for the right term to pull up graphs on this.

My first comment was certainly in error. But the later number are correct. There is a strong regional effect. And Mississippi public schools are averaging over 60% female.

I also find it interesting that some of the higher ranked schools trend more male than the US average.
UT - 47/53
A&M - 49/51
Rice - 53/47
Berkeley - 46/54
UCLA - 41/59

I agree with SM777 but would take it to its logical conclusion:

All sex and sexual relationships -- including in old-fashioned lifetime marriages -- are primarily economic transactions. In effect marriage is a form of employment (albeit one that can and often does go in both directions, so that each partner is "boss" of some things).

The spreadsheet, then, is no different from my boss telling me that I should sell more than one or two cars a month if I want to keep my job.

We will all be better off when the law accepts this fact and expressly legalizes sex work. But even now, we can profit from knowing that all sex is transactional by not expecting any relationship to continue to deliver satisfaction just because it has in the past, or just because we've put enough work or assets into it in the past to deserve that satisfaction.

If my boss were to sign over to me today a lifetime right to get paid, I would have no incentive to even pretend to go on doing my job. We're both better off knowing we each have to go on performing in order to go on receiving, and being honest and up-front in our bargaining. Of course there are people out there who've gotten "better" deals by Machiavellian negotiating tactics, but they should, and often do, eventually regret it through reputation.

All this is true in sex relationships too, and those who don't see it are deluding themselves.

Happily divorced. No, honestly. Almost for more of my life than not. But…

> All sex and sexual relationships -- including
> in old-fashioned lifetime marriages -- are
> primarily economic transactions.

…that's just a weird thing to say.

Why get outta bed in the morning? Why look other people in the eye if you do?

I actually read the comments from the original poster after she uploaded to reddit because she couldn't get a response from her husband. What struck me was the lady was having some severe self esteem issues. All the "I'm sweaty, don't feel good" excuses were from exercising and feeling crappy about her body. But that is a long time to be putting your hubby through a sex drought because of your own issues. Most women go through this, at some point (after kids, after Christmas, whatever). You equate sex with feeling sexy, and if you don't feel sexy, what's the point? You see, women have to get the message by way of their mom, girlfriends, books, etc., that sex is not a bargaining chip, not a spigot you turn on and off in a marriage. You "come together often" as the Bible says, if you want a strong marriage. I think we're getting mixed messages about sex in general. It's the glue that holds us to each other. Great sex is a huge bonus.

…that's just a weird thing to say.

Grotesquely reductionist. Look at his handle.

Grotesquely reductionist

Doesnt make it less true

Doesnt make it less true

Oh yes it does.

@Crid: Why get outta bed in the morning? Why look other people in the eye if you do?

That's a weird comment.

Why would my potential for enjoying life be any less merely because I no longer engage in self-delusions such as the endless quest for "love"? I've had it; I grew out of it. Drug addiction is probably very similar.

If sex in marriage inst transactional why is lack of it grounds for divorce?

Why is it withheld for lack of labor?

"It's no one's vocation to be 'really amazing'."

I could go pro