Empty Shelly
I accidentally posted this on my blog instead of in "Columns," but I'll leave it up here. (Deadline day! Tired!)
My girlfriend of a year is really pretty and sweet, and we love all the same outdoor activities. However, I feel there's a ceiling on our connection because she lacks a strong personality of her own. Whenever we discuss something to do, she defers to me. Also, I care deeply about politics and ideas, but she doesn't read newspapers or books or develop her own opinions. Two days ago, I asked about something we'd just heard on the news, and she basically parroted my opinion back to me. I pressed her, saying, "But what do YOU think?" She couldn't answer. This led to my suggesting that maybe she needs to see a therapist to learn to open up more. She was pretty offended, and we haven't talked much since.
--Politically Concerned
When you say to your girlfriend "So, what are your thoughts on the Middle East?" you'd rather she didn't respond, "Like, you mean, Philadelphia?"
It is nice that you both enjoy the same outdoor activities. Having shared interests can sometimes be essential. For example, a guy who lives to sail would find it a downer to date me. As I wrote in "Good Manners for Nice People Who Sometimes Say F*ck," I have motion sickness issues, "which is to say I get carsick on any street with more than five turns in it -- for example, the winding mountain roads of Washington, DC."
But barring an obsessive attachment by one partner to a sport that, say, makes the other hurl her insides into the ocean for days, people put too much emphasis on having a lot of interests in common. You just need to have enough in common. And in addition to physical chemistry, you need to have what I call a crush on your partner as a human being. This means having respect and admiration for them and a sense of excitement about who they are and how they go about life. Respect is the opposite of contempt -- the sneering disgust for a partner that marriage researcher John Gottman finds is the biggest predictor a couple will divorce. And unfortunately, respect is also the antithesis of what you, as a guy who cares about politics, have for a woman whose favorite Supreme Court justice is probably Judge Judy.
The reality is, your girlfriend isn't going to lean back on some therapist's couch and find her opinion between the pillows -- at least not any time soon. Chances are, she has little innate curiosity and has maybe spent much of her life under the mistaken impression that you can keep a man by keeping mum and nodding yes. In the future, when you meet a woman, instead of just taking stock of all the reasons you'd work as a couple, look for reasons you wouldn't -- like if her peers as political thinkers appear to be your hamster and the paperweight that fell behind your desk. A woman who's right for you will take your thoughts, political and otherwise, and run with them and sometimes bring back something better -- making you better for being with her instead of making you suspect her skull contains only a goldfish swimming around a little castle and a couple of plastic plants.
In order to appeal to an interesting person, you generally must be interesting.
I've know some women with high IQ's on paper, who made sure they never read another thing intellectually weightier than Vogue after high school ,
She also could just have a really low IQ. In order to know what to do, picture yourself with her at 60, when her looks are gone, and the only thing left is the intellect of a potted plant.
Isab at August 26, 2014 4:10 PM
So, because she doesn't have strong opinions on your topics of choice, LW, you actually suggested she needs a therapist?
Well, maybe one of you does, if this is to suggest that people who aren't passionate about the same things you are obviously have something wrong with them. I don't blame her one bit for being offended. Your suggestion smacks of arrogance, whether you intended that or not.
Had she written Amy instead of you, I'd be encouraging her to dump you and find someone a little less full of himself.
Patrick at August 26, 2014 5:19 PM
That's very thoughtful of you, Patrick, but he did mention that "she doesn't read newspapers or books" and always defers to him regarding activities, so that sounds like a pretty passive character in general, not just with regard to certain topics. A lot of men - most? - WOULD find that tiresome very soon.
lenona at August 26, 2014 5:38 PM
" . . . maybe she needs to see a therapist . . ."
umm, yea, I could see that as being kinda harsh.
Clearly, this couple isn't really compatible and need to take a break and see others.
Charles at August 26, 2014 5:45 PM
I think this was meant to be posted under 'Columns'.
A *therapist*!? WTF. I kind of understand a liiittle where this guy's coming from, but that's looney, he's not going to keep girlfriends long if he thinks that way. Not everyone cares a lot or thinks about things enough to develop strong opinions about it - MOST people don't. Deal. It doesn't make them 'crazy', it just makes them 'average people'. If you want intellectual conversation, that's what your nerdy internet friends etc. are there for. Very generally speaking, in most cases, women are there for all the other qualities we value them for. I mean, it's nice if you can find a deeply intellectual woman, but if you're genuinely smart, you'll do the math on your odds of finding someone that smart and that has all the other right qualities. Is your gf sweet and loving and fun to be around, does she love you a lot (sounds like she really does)? Then appreciate what you have and don't squander it with arrogance, because making people feel stupid is not an aphrodisiac and people tire of it quickly, no matter how much they love you. I used to want a high-IQ woman but age and reality have tempered my expectations, now if she's sweet and loving and good-natured I'll take two.
Lobster at August 26, 2014 6:04 PM
And, what Amy said: "You just need to have enough in common"
Lobster at August 26, 2014 6:07 PM
What I think about the Middle East isn't for polite company, so let's talk about that Harvard Diploma. Maybe she's got an opinion, and you won't like it. Not one little bit.
MarkD at August 26, 2014 6:20 PM
My second thought is, holy shit, after a year of dating, he has no idea what her values are?
Obviously all those outdoor activities kept them from ever having any kind of conversation, about their families, or what they want out of life.
I have extremely casual friends, who I go on long car trips with, and I know more about them, than this guy knows about a girl he has been dating for a year.
Isab at August 26, 2014 7:09 PM
This guy sounds like me. I broke up with a sweet considerate and fun guy because I didn't respect his intellect. I needed intelligent conversation and a man that would challenge me. I got him.
We have very few of those stimulating conversations nowadays. A much greater portion of a successful married life involves working with someone and showing respect and consideration. Yes, he challenges my thinking although it feels more like an argument.
I found that I took many things for granted. I assumed that it would be easy to see eye to eye and compromise with any thinking person, but I was wrong. Although he is very bright, it's almost impossible to see things in other ways or compromise.for instance, "What the hell is a focal point? You must have made that up." And "That's ridiculous. Why can't I put orange and black with pastels? Any color goes with any other color."
If I'm cooking and I need to move the 12 inches from the stove to the sink I have to walk 12 feet around the island because he has to get between the two and won't take a small step forward or back to make room. What I would give for someone that I could work beside happily. I would like my home to be a haven. Unfortunately we argue about food, decor, entertainment ad infinitum. I should have just picked someone I could work with. If I do it again, my first date is going to be remodeling a bathroom. I think I would learn a little more.
Jen at August 26, 2014 8:08 PM
"My second thought is, holy shit, after a year of dating, he has no idea what her values are?
Obviously all those outdoor activities kept them from ever having any kind of conversation [...]"
Posted by: Isab at August 26, 2014 7:09 PM
I assumed it was the indoor activities.
Who can last a year being the only one in the conversation?
...Jen, that sounds incredibly lonely.
Michelle at August 26, 2014 9:34 PM
This was meant to be posted under columns. I screwed up. Tired today!
Amy Alkon at August 27, 2014 12:11 AM
Seems to me Amy is a bit hard on the girlfriend, and too nice to the guy. He sounds like some people I knew back in my early 20s: the world is simple, they know the way to fix all the political problems, and they insist on talking about it.
For people like this, no answer is right. If you agree with them, you're not standing up and showing your own opinions. If you disagree with them, they stomp all over you, because they know the one, true answer.
She may well just be tired of this game, and doing her best to dodge it, figuring that he's otherwise a good enough guy.
a_random_guy at August 27, 2014 12:17 AM
She's not interested in politics. Can you live with that? If so, stay together. If not, move on.
NicoleK at August 27, 2014 12:20 AM
Actually, in a way I can relate to LW's girlfriend. When it comes to planning mutual activities, I don't usually have my heart set on doing any particular thing. Whatever my date wants to do, I'll get into it.
And there are an awful lot of topics that people are passionate about on this blog, and not something I see as worth getting upset about.
As Lobster points out, there's absolutely no reason, when he's in the mood to discuss politics, that it has to be with her.
Patrick at August 27, 2014 5:25 AM
Therapy can't make a person become interested in subjects, it's about redirecting innate personality self harming traits that are problematic for the individual (not their partners).
It's like asking if a therapist can make your wife interested in golf.
Therapy barely works on people with actual personality disorders anyways.
Ppen at August 27, 2014 5:27 AM
Therapy barely works on people with actual personality disorders anyways.
Posted by: Ppen at August 27, 2014 5:27 AM
Yep. This belief of his that therapy can fix everything tells me that he is most likely an impractical dreamer. And possibly a political blowhard.
She should dump him quickly.
Isab at August 27, 2014 6:33 AM
I think people are fixating too much on this politics example. What if he was asking her about the Michael Brown tragedy and she deferred to his opinion? Maybe when he asks her about the restaurant for date night, she has no opinion whatsoever? Of course I am speculating but the point is that there may be more to this woman's passivity that is driving him up the wall than a mere disinterest in politics.
Kate at August 27, 2014 7:18 AM
I say go with the passivity, suggest S&M and see how she reacts
lujlp at August 27, 2014 7:39 AM
I think it goes to mutual respect.
LW doesn't seem to have respect for his current GF - although he says she's nice enough. And Jen's SO doesn't have respect for her. (My ex would do the "What the hell is a focal point?" thing, too, and I could never be sure if he was just poking at me or really didn't know. But regardless it was used to pick or stoke a fight, in almost exactly the same way.)
Respect will get you through the low points like nothing else will, because it fosters kindness and dignity.
Aretha was absolutely right.
flbeachmom at August 27, 2014 8:02 AM
It seems to me that he simply finds her boring. That hardly means she needs to see a therapist, however.
My boyfriend and I both follow current events and discuss ideas - a lot. Someday we will be old and wrinkly, so if we don't have a strong mental connection, what would be left?
I dated a guy in college who was cute but didn't pay much attention to what was going on in the world and really didn't have much of an opinion about anything. He could tell you the name of every member of every heavy metal band that had ever existed, though. I thought he was boring and moved on.
Pirate Jo at August 27, 2014 9:04 AM
Pirate Jo prompted a thought (damn that hurt).
Is casual sex promoting a disincentive to "moving on" when a relationship is not hitting all the right buttons?
From a guy's POV, if I'm not living with/not putting up with/ her 'faults' BUT am getting sex, then what's "wrong" w/the relationship.
Of course if I'm looking for a mate then like a job interview time does matter and I need to be realistic and call it quits at some point.
Bob in Texas at August 27, 2014 9:58 AM
And another advice columnist in America is receiving a letter from a woman asking what to do about a tiresome boyfriend who won't shut up about politics.
David Crawford at August 27, 2014 10:23 AM
I come from a fairly political family. We talk politics and disagreements are typically cordial. My wife has no interest whatsoever. When asked she does like LW's girl and agrees with what happened last. She doesn't care about Furguson. She isn't interested in tax rates. She is more interested in Obama's golf game than his solution to Ukraine. She does like walking/hiking, listening to music, playing with the kids, among other things. Like many others have said, you don't have to share everything. My wife is not stupid but we are intellectually engaged in completely different areas.
I'm with Jen in that it is better to have someone you can work with than someone interesting to talk to.
And if LW is suggesting therapy for a disinterest in politics LW's girl should run.
Ben at August 27, 2014 1:56 PM
+1 @ Jen's comments.
lobster at August 27, 2014 2:12 PM
Just popped into my news feed...
http://time.com/3174575/these-4-things-kill-relationships/
The short list?
Criticism, contempt, defensiveness, stonewalling.
Which boils down to a lack of respect: respect for the other person (times two), respect for oneself, and respect for the relationship.
flbeachmom at August 27, 2014 2:39 PM
@Jen
This is the second or third (maybe more) of posts you have made over petty things about your husband that annoy you.
Let me tell you something Dear. You seem quite young.
And just like that mythical perfect libertarian president who is going to sweep right in, and be Mr. Right all the time, every man out there does things that will annoy any woman who has to live with them.
You should be taking a really hard look at these petty disagreements you seem to have and ask yourself, if you would rather 1. Be alone or 2. Deprive your child(ren) of their dad.
There are solutions to being constantly annoyed by another person.
The first is to realize that annoyance is something that originates inside of you, and work on not setting up situations where you become annoyed.
Like. Cook alone in the kitchen. Either you do it, or he does it, but you don't do it together.
When you start thinking, this man in my head, Prince Charming, let's call him for now, would never annoy me, by doing. _________. Or comparing your current husband to your former boyfriend, you are out the door mentally and emotionally already.
So, is the paperwork all but a formality, or do you just blow off steam here, in place of actually working on the relationship?
Isab at August 27, 2014 2:47 PM
@"I have to walk 12 feet around the island because he has to get between the two and won't take a small step forward or back to make room"
Have you actually tried just saying something like, "sorry, you're blocking my way"? He might just not have really consciously noticed he's in your way, but mentioning it might make him aware. Or does he refuse?
Lobster at August 27, 2014 4:06 PM
I can see Isab's point. Though Jen's comment struck a bit of a chord with me as I think I sometimes can be 'that guy' too - and I don't like it - I'd rather also work to improve. Sometimes I won't notice I'm in someone's way not because I don't care, but because I sometimes tend to 'live in my head', but I'll gladly move if someone points it out. (In my defense also, I understand there's such a thing as objective aesthetic color theory, though that's beside the point.)
Lobster at August 27, 2014 4:09 PM
Politics - I have this to say about politics: Every time I read a news article online and am curious about the comments, I nearly choke bile when the Reds and Blues start having at each other. Obama sucks! Well, Dubya sucked worse! Here are all the bad things the Democrats have done! No, no, the fault is all the Republicans - here are all the crappy things THEY have done! Then these rubes spit at each other like mad cats, arguing over whether this or that shitty policy was the fault of the Reds or Blues. I can't stand it! If THAT is what you mean by politics, I hate it, too. It seems to bring out the dumbest in people.
Now, on the other hand, if you're talking about this or that trend in society, what you like, what you don't like, what happened in the news this week and what you thought of it, well that is another thing entirely. I find these discussions are more enlightening and thought-provoking when you leave politics OUT of the equation. If you're too stupid to think beyond Team Red or Team Blue, and how I need to be recruited to one side or the other, well I'd just as soon thunk my forehead against a telephone pole until the sound of your voice stops.
As to Jen, how do you know she has children?
And in other news, I never call people "Dear" if I actually want them to listen to what I have to say.
Pirate Jo at August 27, 2014 4:40 PM
As to Jen, how do you know she has children?
And in other news, I never call people "Dear" if I actually want them to listen to what I have to say.
Posted by: Pirate Jo at August 27, 2014 4:40 PM
I believe she has mentioned it several times, but I could have her confused with another poster.
I called her dear, because I was being condescending. Couldn't you tell?
Isab at August 27, 2014 4:48 PM
Of course I could tell, Dr. Laura!
But as long as you feel better.
("Honey" works, too.)
And I agree with your comments about therapy.
Pirate Jo at August 27, 2014 5:06 PM
So Isab, tell us exactly what happens when your husband corrects your opinion on a matter, one in which he was not solicited in the first place. How do you handle that?
gooseegg at August 27, 2014 8:36 PM
If I were to try and find a reason why someone wouldn't work out, I am quite sure I could find some reason for every single person.
I think there has to be something more there than just shared activities. I have seen a number of marriages falter once the kids get to an age where the parents can no longer do their activities...and especially once they are done raising the kids.
The Former Banker at August 27, 2014 11:14 PM
So Isab, tell us exactly what happens when your husband corrects your opinion on a matter, one in which he was not solicited in the first place. How do you handle that?
Posted by: gooseegg at August 27, 2014 8:36 PM
What makes you think my wonderful husband would be rude and pushy enough to try to correct anyone's opinion?
An opinion can't be corrected. Erroneous facts that your opinion is based on can be.
It can make for an interesting conversation with lots of googling.
He has his areas of expertise, and I have mine. And we never discuss petty subjects like interior decorating, sheesh. We aren't 16 year old girls. Who the fuck cares?
Isab at August 28, 2014 6:26 AM
Isab, if you don't discus interior decorating then how do you know which colors to paint the walls? You may be at the point where all the walls are painted, but some of our walls need repainting. :-)
I actually had a lot of trouble with 'incorrect opinions' in school. I had multiple teachers ask for my opinion and then say, 'no, you are wrong'. I have to say I lost all respect for a teacher when they didn't even know enough English to understand what an opinion was.
Ben at August 28, 2014 6:36 AM
I get it - Isab is the rude and pushy, and the wonderful husband wouldn't dare offer up an opposing opinion. That's why she's leaping down on the heads of anyone who has the viewpoint that a spouse can be less than perfect, less than ideal as a mate for yourself, on second thought. Because hers is wonderful. Congratulations.
gooseegg at August 28, 2014 6:48 AM
Isab, if you don't discus interior decorating then how do you know which colors to paint the walls? You may be at the point where all the walls are painted, but some of our walls need repainting. :-)
Is this a big concern of yours? Seriously, what color the walls are painted, matters to you?
My answer, the same color they are already will save a lot of money and grief.
My walls are all the same color. Like I said, we don't do decorator stuff.
My husband has no interest in what color the walls are painted. He has bigger fish to fry than standing around comparing paint chips, and also I believe he is slightly color blind.
He cares as much about paint, as he does which brand of toilet paper, we buy (which is zero)
He went to a college that had uniforms, and he doesn't care about clothes either. He likes them clean,simple, and comfortable.
Isab at August 28, 2014 7:20 AM
I get it - Isab is the rude and pushy, and the wonderful husband wouldn't dare offer up an opposing opinion. That's why she's leaping down on the heads of anyone who has the viewpoint that a spouse can be less than perfect, less than ideal as a mate for yourself, on second thought. Because hers is wonderful. Congratulations.
Posted by: gooseegg at August 28, 2014 6:48 AM
Thank you.
My husband is a wonderful person. I am extremely lucky to have him, and somewhat surprised that I did so well.
What is really tacky is criticizing your spouse, either in front of other people, behind his or her back to your friends, or anonymously on a board like this.
I have had friendships end with women who did this, because I wont play that Junior High game.
I don't do it. It is both rude, immature, and extremely low class.
Do you?
Isab at August 28, 2014 8:13 AM
Well if there's a problem, I don't bottle it up anymore and just act like it doesn't exist. I don't spout ad nauseum about my personal struggles, either. What I don't do is bash in someone who has a different experience from my own - because you do not know what another's life is like. Your experience is so vastly and inexplicably different from Jen's that you don't comprehend another's difficult marriage. You just want them to shut up about it and stop bashing the man. Cause if you, Isab, have a good one, then Jen must too, just change your song. That's not real life. It's just your life. Have a little empathy, that's all I'm saying.
gooseegg at August 28, 2014 8:34 AM
*popcorn*
Lobster at August 28, 2014 9:02 AM
I completely get where Isab is coming from here, and I think her approach is more mature and more conducive to better relationships.
But (though I can't speak for their situation) I *think* I also get where Jen is coming from. It sounds like he may be sometimes almost steamrolling his views over her, and like he doesn't really value her views.
@"An opinion can't be corrected. Erroneous facts that your opinion is based on can be."
Yup.
@gooseegg "So Isab, tell us exactly what happens when your husband corrects your opinion on a matter, one in which he was not solicited in the first place."
I don't know if this just sounded bad, but it kind of sounds like you're saying you think your husband should never offer his views unless they're asked for.
Lobster at August 28, 2014 9:13 AM
There's a certain class of 'above-average intelligence' (but not 'well above average' - I think they are most commonly, say, in the top decile but below the top percentile) people who develop what's sometimes called 'smartest person in the room syndrome' and it sounds like Jen's husband has a bit of a case of this:
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=32044.0
"Smartest Guy in the Room syndrome is related to Dunning/Kruger Effect, and affects men and women equally.
The Smartest Guy in the Room is smart enough to know that he's smarter than most people, but not smart enough to recognize when other people are smarter. He defaults to the belief that because he is smarter than the majority of the population, he must be smarter than the people he's talking to, and tends to look no further or deeper than whatever initial assumption he has made or conclusion he has come to.
The Smartest Guy in the Room is recognizable for his tendency to dismiss other people's views without critically examining why, for glancing at a discussion, assuming other people are being foolish, and correcting them based on that assumption without actually checking the source material himself to understand what they are discussing, and for either digging in his heels and screeching, or for "refusing to argue because it's pointless" whenever anyone else presents difficult-to-refute information that contradicts his conclusion.
He actually can't learn, because he thinks he already knows, and that the rest of us simply aren't smart enough to see his enlightenment. The Smartest Guy in the Room has usually been through at least one, sometimes two jailbreaks, but then something critical happened; he stopped. Convinced that he had broken out of his cell, he latched onto whatever form of enlightenment helped him get there, failing to realize that enlightenment is a verb, not a noun. Clinging to the implements of his enlightenment, he also failed to notice that he is once again squatting in a cell almost identical to the one he believed he had left behind.
There is nothing that can be done with a Smartest Guy in the Room, as any attempt to convince him that he is missing out on a huge aspect of bipedal development will simply lead to him thinking that you don't understand his unique and highly sophisticated perspective. In that sense, the Smartest Guy in the Room is stuck in a state of arrested development, at approximately age fourteen."
The genuinely most intelligent people always retain a modicum of humility - they're aware that there are vast amounts of things they don't know, they know what they do and what they don't know, that sometimes they can learn from others, and that really very smart people are a dime a dozen out there in the real world, and you can always learn something from them.
Lobster at August 28, 2014 9:25 AM
Note "Smartest Guy in the Room" doesn't mean they ARE the smartest - just that they always THINK they are.
Where Jen's comment struck a chord with me was, though I'm not closed-minded to new views, I'm habitually very analytical, it's difficult to say anything around me without my mind launching into an in-depth rational analysis of whether it's correct and the underlying concepts .. and it clicked to me as I read her comment why, I think, my wife and I often seem to be talking past one another - I think she probably sometimes just wants a 'normal' person to talk about 'normal' stuff in a 'normal' way.
Lobster at August 28, 2014 9:32 AM
"Well if there's a problem, I don't bottle it up anymore and just act like it doesn't exist. "
You don't have to. Just make sure it is a real problem like "how are we going to pay for college" and not, "he prefers a slightly different shade of white for the wall color in the bathroom"
And then solve it between the two of you.
Don't solicit support for the rightness of your opinions over his from fifteen different family members, and six of your girlfriends, all the time explaining how wrong he is for having different tastes or opinions than you do.
Or people on the internet. If you need that kind of reassurance, you are not a mature adult.
Also, it was not this one topic that set me off about Jen's criticism of her husband. If I recall, it was three or four other posts before it.
Apparently they don't work well together, in the kitchen, in bed, or on home remodeling projects.
I could find those, and repost, but I suspect that would be embarrassing and redundant for everyone.
Most of the issues were really really petty. I despise petty people.
Isab at August 28, 2014 9:36 AM
- @gooseegg "So Isab, tell us exactly what happens when your husband corrects your opinion on a matter, one in which he was not solicited in the first place."
-I don't know if this just sounded bad, but it kind of sounds like you're saying you think your husband should never offer his views unless they're asked for.
So I'll elaborate a little on what I think is Isab's situation versus Jen's. Isab is the alpha female in her relationship. She is the "smartest girl in the room." She has the co-dependent spouse who does not in any way contradict Isab's point of view. He has his opinions, he does not contradict hers. She is looking at marriages that other women are in as similar to her own, but she fails to see that most women still are in the dependent role, not the alpha role. Most men still see themselves in the alpha role, whether they belong there or not. Isab's lack of empathy to others in a marriage situation that in no way mirrors her own is my issue.
gooseegg at August 28, 2014 9:40 AM
"He actually can't learn, because he thinks he already knows, and that the rest of us simply aren't smart enough to see his enlightenment. The Smartest Guy in the Room has usually been through at least one, sometimes two jailbreaks, but then something critical happened; he stopped. Convinced that he had broken out of his cell, he latched onto whatever form of enlightenment helped him get there, failing to realize that enlightenment is a verb, not a noun. Clinging to the implements of his enlightenment, he also failed to notice that he is once again squatting in a cell almost identical to the one he believed he had left behind."
I'm sorry Lobster. I guess I didn't realize that we were discussing Barack Obama. :-)
It is ok to be analytical. There have been times when I was younger that I pushed it over into rudeness. Lots of people make the assumption that everyone, especially their spouse is operating on the same wave length that they are.
I am sorry for that now.
I have learned a lot from some of my really smart and well educated friends, who seem to handle disagreement with more grace than I could manage when I was younger.
I am so damn old now, that I don't go around tilting at windmills much. I have better things to do, like petting the cats, and cleaning my guns.
The gun cleaning is kind of boring, but if you are gonna shoot, ya gotta clean, :-) and it is more fun than running the vacuum.
Isab at August 28, 2014 10:01 AM
@"Isab's lack of empathy to others in a marriage situation that in no way mirrors her own is my issue"
Hm.
I think some people, usually people who have been through some 'real' hardships or really had to work hard in life, develop a certain kind of 'clarity' whereby they realize that everything in life can be mentally categorized as either, "things that matter", and "things that don't". I think Isab is rightfully trying to get this point across ... I can't agree more that the color of your walls goes under "thing's that don't".
What Isab may be missing is that it is maybe not really about the colors, but something underlying, like that they don't seem to respect one another. Arguing over colors may just be one symptom.
Lobster at August 28, 2014 10:04 AM
So I'll elaborate a little on what I think is Isab's situation versus Jen's. Isab is the alpha female in her relationship. She is the "smartest girl in the room." She has the co-dependent spouse who does not in any way contradict Isab's point of view. He has his opinions, he does not contradict hers. She is looking at marriages that other women are in as similar to her own, but she fails to see that most women still are in the dependent role, not the alpha role. Most men still see themselves in the alpha role, whether they belong there or not. Isab's lack of empathy to others in a marriage situation that in no way mirrors her own is my issue.
Posted by: gooseegg at August 28, 2014 9:40 AM
My lack of empathy is not for beta dependent women or others in a bad marriage. It is for people who have the bad manners to air their dirty laundry in public, and talk crap about their spouse (or their parents, or their children)
Actually I am not the "smartest girl in the room" I am smart enough to know that my friends with IQs above 150, and razor sharp educations are smarter, and better informed on many topics than I am.
My husband and I no longer discuss petty things that we are in disagreement about.
We had those arguments in the first three years of marriage. There is no point repeating them.
If we are co dependent, it is in the sense that we both want the best for each other and out children.
You can try and smear us with a psychological barb like "co dependent" or "alpha female" but I question your motives.
Why do you have to pigeon hole a loving relationship into a pattern that you can make sense of?
Do you need to classify my marriage so you can dismiss it?
If a woman wants be to a doormat, she can make herself one, and she will select a mate who treats her that way.
There was a post made above to a link that probably needs a quotation:
From these 4 things kill relationships:
"What surprised me the most? Gottman’s research reveals that major differences of opinion don’t destroy marriages, it’s how a couple deals with them.
69% of a couple’s problems are perpetual. These problems don’t go away yet many couples keep arguing about them year after year:
Most marital arguments cannot be resolved. Couples spend year after year trying to change each other’s mind – but it can’t be done. This is because most of their disagreements are rooted in fundamental differences of lifestyle, personality, or values. By fighting over these differences, all they succeed in doing is wasting their time and harming their marriage.
How do good marriages deal with issues that can’t be resolved? They accept one another as-is:
These couples intuitively understand that problems are inevitably part of a relationship, much the way chronic physical ailments are inevitable as you get older. They are like a trick knee, a bad back, an irritable bowel, or tennis elbow. We may not love these problems, but we are able to cope with them, to avoid situations that worsen them, and to develop strategies and routines that help us deal with them. Psychologist Dan Wile said it best in his bookAfter the Honeymoon: “When choosing a long-term partner… you will inevitably be choosing a particular set of unsolvable problems that you’ll be grappling with for the next ten, twenty or fifty years."
Isab at August 28, 2014 10:33 AM
Obama - lol!
@" she fails to see that most women still are in the dependent role, not the alpha role. Most men still see themselves in the alpha role"
I prefer to think of relationships as partnerships, not in terms of who is "above" or "below" the other (though to me 'partership' doesn't mean 'working together on everything' either). Everyone (man or woman) needs to feel they're in control of *some* things in life. So I think role division is a useful way of allowing people to have autonomy over different areas. E.g. if I was with Jen and we were constantly clashing over wall colors I'd just say something like, OK, interior decorating is your department, you take charge, I trust you, or whatever. The flip side is that I also need to have other roles/areas in which I have general autonomy and don't want someone 'controlling' me the whole time or clashing. That isn't to say neither can give inputs on the other, or whatever, it's just about respecting one another's space/autonomy in different 'departments'.
I see parallels to running my business. E.g. if my wife 'takes charge' in interior decorating it doesn't mean she's now "alpha" any more than if I delegate managing a project to an employee that it means that employee is now 'the boss'.
It's not a competition, we're just adults working together to achieve some common goals. Role division, delegation, autonomy etc.
Lobster at August 28, 2014 10:44 AM
What you said to her and the way you said it was rude. She is not airing her dirty laundry, as no one on this board knows her name or her spouse. This is not facebook. You made it a point to call her out, so I return the favor. You have a great relationship, and kudos to you for it. But you are not Jen, her husband is not yours, and you are doing a pitiable job at seeing that. Dear.
gooseegg at August 28, 2014 10:45 AM
@"I see parallels to running my business"
And, important - in a business, there's a reason you don't generally try put 'two managers on the same project'.
If you hire a *professional* interior decorator, your professional team won't include two managers both having creative control, but who constantly argue and bicker over the natural differences that would arise between any two human beings.
Lobster at August 28, 2014 10:49 AM
One person needs to have 'creative control'. Whether it's food, decor, interior decorating, etc.
If everyone has creative control you either get 'design by committee', or an ugly patchwork instead of a unified vision.
Lobster at August 28, 2014 10:52 AM
It is good to hear you clean your gun Isab. Far too few people don't maintain their tools leading to either costly repair or sometimes tragedy.
And to clarify a point Lobster, neither person in a marriage has to have total creative control. But you do need to have your own domains and tasks to control. The feminist idea that everyone does 50% of all the work just doesn't work. Invariably one of you is 'doing it wrong'. And what is really just a difference in opinions blows up into a major fight. Something as simple as vacuuming the floors can lead to a breakup. Pick your tasks, take charge of them, and don't bitch about how the other person does their's. Because if you bitch that just became your task.
Also, if something is important to you, take care of it! Don't leave an important task to someone else. They probably won't do it how you want it done. Someone told a tale about a husband who never picked the right lube. She had special needs and he always assured her he had got 'the good stuff'. But invariably it was the wrong stuff. For something that important she needed to take care of it herself. Her beau wasn't picking the wrong product on purpose. In fact he was probably buying the most expensive thing he could find. But since he didn't know exactly what was needed he did it wrong. So just like the birth control story below this one, if something is important to you take care of it yourself.
Ben at August 28, 2014 11:15 AM
@"And to clarify a point Lobster, neither person in a marriage has to have total creative control. But you do need to have your own domains and tasks to control."
Yup, to be clear, that is what I was trying to get at.
Lobster at August 28, 2014 11:51 AM
(I scattered my point over several posts so maybe it was unclear)
Lobster at August 28, 2014 11:52 AM
Ha ha - I remember that lube comment. Totally agree.
Lobster at August 28, 2014 11:56 AM
"Hubby says that I am too picky and complain that he is too much so he has given up trying.
I don't understand why he can't give me a decent backrub without jamming my spine. I tell him to avoid that area.
One time I told him to stroke my leg 5 times. To my surprise, it worked. He did it and it actually activated my libido. Perhaps I need to be Very specific. Of course, then I seem like a traffic cop. I never fake an orgasm.
I have to ask him if he has washed his hands recently because if they are salty they burn me. He keeps getting lubes and condoms that I'm allergic to. Then he's upset when I bitch or quiz him. He tells me that he was careful and "got the good stuff." Passive aggressive perhaps? Perhaps it's just me being "picky."
Posted by: Jen at July 22, 2014 3:01 PM
@Ben
It was Jen, as you see. One of those previous posts I was referencing about her passive aggressive airing of the dirty laundry.(as opposed to buying the lube herself)
And Gooseegg?
It was meant to be rude. But you are not the one I would be apologizing to, if indeed I had any remorse (which I don't)
I can assure you, that if you were to visit me In Japan, or here in the states, I would treat you with the utmost courtesy, and kindness.
But I absolutely meant to be harsh with Jen. I have her pegged as a passive whiner, who believes that somehow her husband has control over her happiness, and also he should read her mind, and magically anticipate her desires.
Men aren't like that, and they can't tell the difference between ecru, and eggshell white, on those little paint chip thingies.
Additional note to Ben. That is gun(s) plural. I need four for the competitions that I shoot. Then of course, there are the backups. :-) I don't hunt. Can't stand to see animals hurt or killed, but I go through lots of paper targets, and lots of lead on an annual basis.
Isab at August 28, 2014 12:17 PM
Arguing over colors may just be one symptom.
And sometimes it is just so petty and banal that it is nothing more than arguing about colors.
lujlp at August 28, 2014 12:30 PM
Hm, I'd forgotten who made the lube comment, but I do see a pattern. The poor guy is just trying his hardest to please her, trying to give her backrubs 'just the right way', trying to buy 'just the right lube', but nothing is ever good enough ... because .. I'd guess probably the problem isn't really so much *what* he's doing, as just the fact that it's 'him' that is 'wrong' ... sounds like Jen might have a case of 'deep down I'm not really happy with who I am with so I'm going to sublimate that sense into projected dissatisfaction over small things they do that aren't really wrong'. It's common (both that, and waking up one day to find you aren't really happy with who you married). Well, shit happens ... sometimes the guy you're with might not be the Mr Perfect you dreamed of, but this guy is there, trying hard, giving backrubs, trying his best to buy 'the right lube' .. I think sometimes you need to just decide whether, either you appreciate what you have and start working with him, or move on.
I postulate that derisive comments about focal points may even be that unconsciously he senses that he has lost respect and appreciation from her, and so he may overcompensate by attempting to re-assert his sense of 'utility' with mutterings of 'knowing better'.
Lobster at August 28, 2014 12:48 PM
I really miss shooting .. for various reasons, it's been a while.
Lobster at August 28, 2014 12:49 PM
"Well, shit happens ... sometimes the guy you're with might not be the Mr Perfect you dreamed of, but this guy is there, trying hard, giving backrubs, trying his best to buy 'the right lube' .. I think sometimes you need to just decide whether, either you appreciate what you have and start working with him, or move on."
Bingo. And that brings us full circle back around to my original post, where I had the temerity to ask Jen if she was already "out the door" mentally if not physically.
Sorry about your shooting Lobster. It really keeps me sane, and enabled me to build a life, after the kids were grown.
I do it because I love it, but also to honor my father, a World War II vet who really knew how to shoot, how to teach shooting, and how to be a dad.
Isab at August 28, 2014 2:38 PM
Isab, just want to say, I've really enjoyed all your comments on this thread.
I always wanted to shoot in competitions, but am not really good enough - I do enjoy it though, and even just being around when people are shooting.
My grandfather was a fighter pilot in WWII. Flew some dogfights in which just he and one other pilot (of 20) in the sortie returned - landing with his plane shredded with bullet-holes. It seems to me sometimes that that generation was cut from a different cloth. (I don't think my grandparents complained about things like not getting perfect backrubs.)
Lobster at August 28, 2014 5:55 PM
Your dad sounds like a great guy.
Lobster at August 28, 2014 5:57 PM
I can see why some people would view me negatively.
I do think that my husband has "smartest man in the room syndrome."
I'm not expressing myself clearly about the things that are hard to work with.
We have a great time when we go out or are on vacation, but living together peacefully is difficult.
I have suggested getting a decorator and stepping back. My husband could work exclusively with the decorator. I don't think I'm picky. I could go with Tuscan earthy tones, modern apple green and black, turquoise and coral, an assortment of blues and greens with browns or just about any other combination. I like modern, eclectic, or country French, but a hodge podge makes me nervous. He rather thinks paying attention to aesthetics is rather snooty even if it doesn't cost a penny. We just see things differently. When I have just taken what we have an re-arranged it, he gets upset and moves them. My parents flipped homes and I was usually the one the arranged the pictures and vignets, but those are always rearranged. My mom says that he is just marking his territory and doesn't like me to leave my scent.
Yes, I've said,"excuse me" several times. I've either been ignored or been received negatively. I've never asked him to help in the kitchen but we have been there the same time while I'm cooking or putting away the dishes and he comes in to get a Tupperware container full of ice cream.
I would adore him if we lived apart and just traveled. I do enjoy the conversation. I even worked for him and really enjoyed it. It's just trying to operate as equals day to day that is difficult.
Jen at August 28, 2014 9:57 PM
Jen,
I feel for you bc I was in a similar situation when I was young. The guy I was with had all the same controlling tendencies. The difference is I didn't marry him. I realized that I couldn't live that way one night when he told me that after we were married my floral plates would have to go bc white is the best color for plates. In that moment, my whole past with him and our future flashed before my eyes and I tossed him out on the spot. (Ironically, I now own a set of all white plates.)
Where we are different is that you married yours. I can't feel too sorry for you bc you had to know what you were getting when you married him. A guy like that can't hide that part of himself easily. I am an advocate for marriage and working things out, but it sounds like you now realize that he will never change and are quite resentful of that. If you have no children, do yourself a favor and get out now and be smarter next time. Don't waste your youth on guy who will never appreciate what you bring to the marriage.band who drives you crazy.
If you have kids, you are pretty much screwed and my advice to you would be to let it all go and not engage him on hot button topics. Realize that this is your life for now and wait until the kids head to college and then get out. I know that seems like a long time, but believe me it will pass faster than you think. If you choose to not let him bother you, you might even get some satisfaction from your life. Good luck to you!
Sheep Mom at August 29, 2014 6:42 AM
@"Yes, I've said,"excuse me" several times. I've either been ignored or been received negatively."
I suspect it's probably received negatively because he probably subconsciously perceives that you aren't 'just' asking him to move out the way, but also (not on purpose, and without consciously being aware of it) expressing in very subtle ways in your body language and tone your entire dissatisfaction with him as your partner and your general sense of fatigue from continually finding him annoying. Most people do take that negatively.
@"When I have just taken what we have an re-arranged it, he gets upset and moves them."
Two people are always going to have different ideas about 'what goes where' in some piece of space, even if they're the most super-compatible couple in history and as specifically designed by a deity for one another. It's also his space, not just yours ... he's probably reacting to your sense that is it "right" when you move things but "wrong" when he does it.
Early in our marriage my wife and I bumped heads a few times because 'she kept moving my stuff'. My solution was simple, I just decided in most the house she decides what goes where (logical, as she does most the cleaning work, as I am the one working), but certain spaces are 'mine' and I decide what goes where - I asked her not to touch or move anything, and I don't rearrange things in 'her' areas. And of course I don't always agree with her decor style or arrangements (we have quite different taste), but it's important to me that *she* likes it, as she has to live in it. Have you tried discussing such an arrangement? E.g. let him have some "spaces" where he decides what goes where and you *don't touch anything* (no matter how ugly you think is is or how much more "correct" you think it is), and vice versa.
There are "things that matter" in life, and "things that don't", and I can't imagine anything that matters less to me than worrying about the fact that my wife put that picture frame or piece of furniture *there* while I prefer it over *there* , I don't want to waste one second of my life even thinking about something so trifling. I worry about things like that our daughter is happy and healthy, about bringing in new business to pay for things, about keeping the family safe, about whether we're going to have money to pay for a good education for her. I am far from perfect, I don't claim to be. My wife and I argue like anyone else. But some problems seem easier to me to solve than others.
Everyone needs some 'space' to control. It has nothing to do with "marking territory" - it's just human. Look even at a poor homeless person sleeping in a car, and you'll see they take care in how they arrange the very few things they have in the tiny space they have. It's a natural psychological need to help feel in control.
Lobster at August 29, 2014 7:16 AM
Jen, I'm not trying to criticize or bash. I really just hope you at least try read some of these comments with an open mind, and maybe gain *something* out of them.
Lobster at August 29, 2014 7:18 AM
@"certain spaces are 'mine' and I decide what goes where - I asked her not to touch or move anything, and I don't rearrange things in 'her' areas"
Incidentally this worked very well. We instantly went from 'regularly bumping heads over it', to basically never doing so, like overnight.
Lobster at August 29, 2014 7:20 AM
He has two rooms. I don't touch anything. We do have other areas that are shared. We have been married 30 years and for the first time, I got to put some of my things out in the living room. He had always moved anything that I tried to put out. I got a wild hair and went out and bought a bunch of things and accessorized our living room. I had it done by the time he got home from a day trip. He was awestruck by how good it looked. He said that he didn't know that I could do that he should have let me do it sooner. It scared him whenever I tried to change anything. He couldn't see the whole picture. It wasn't perfect. I did some speed shopping. I was ready for the impending divorce, but it was high time. I now have two pictures in the living room and he has two pictures there. In his room, he has 127 pictures - I was curious so I just counted them. He has another room filled with memorabilia and more pictures and another bunch of stuff in our bedroom. I am happy that I have some part of the house that I have a bit of a say in. Like you said, everyone needs an area where they can feel comfortable. I feel comfortable where it is more pared down.
Yes these things seem petty, but it's important to feel comfortable in your environment - and that is not just decor.
Jen at August 29, 2014 9:42 PM
Your dad sounds like a great guy.
Posted by: Lobster at August 28, 2014 5:57 PM
He was a hero.
Lobster, if you want to learn how to shoot competitively, send me an email. I can teach anyone who wants to learn. I do precision pistol,which is easier for older people to become competitive at. If you don't live near me, I can hook you up with someone nearby.
Isab at August 31, 2014 4:41 PM
My husband cannot, for the life of him, do the kitchen dance. At all. He is always in the way and utterly oblivious about it.
I tell him "Let me know when you're finished." Then I find something else to do outside of the kitchen. This saves me untold aggravation.
I just say I have a hard time working when I am crowded. Which has the benefit of being a completely true statement.
We've been married almost 24 years. We get each other's foibles.
LauraGr at September 2, 2014 3:14 PM
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