How Sexy Is "Affirmative Consent"?
Conor Friedersdorf, at The Atlantic, blogged an email from a guy who "began college determined to ask women for explicit verbal consent during sexual encounters, but abandoned that approach over time." The guy writes:
I was raised by a left-leaning, feminist family who (at least I thought at the time) were relatively open about sex. But while I arrived at college with a healthy respect for women, I was totally unprepared for the complex realities of female sexuality."Oh," sighed one platonic female friend after we had just watched Harrison Ford grab Alison Doody and kiss her is Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, "Why don't guys do that kind of thing anymore? Now days they are all too scared."
On our second night together, one of my first partners threw up her hands in disgust. "How am I supposed to get turned on when you keep asking for permission for everything like a little boy?" She said. "Just take me and fuck me already."
She didn't stay with me for long.
This would be a recurring theme. More than once I saw disappointment in the eyes of women when I didn't fulfill the leadership role they wanted me to perform in the bedroom. I realized that women don't just desire men, they desire men's desire―and often they don't want to have to ask for it. I also realized that I was in many ways ashamed of my own sexual desire as a man, and that this was not healthy.
...One night I ended up back in a girl's room after a first date (those do happen in college). She had invited me in and was clearly attracted to me. We were kissing on her bed, outer layers of clothing removed, but when my hands wandered downward she said, "No, wait." I waited. She began kissing me again, passionately, so again I moved to remove her underwear. "Stop," she said, "this is too fast." I stopped.
"That's fine," I said. I kissed her again and left soon after, looking forward to seeing her again.
But my text messages received only cold, vaguely angry replies, and then silence. I was rather confused. Only many weeks later did I find out the truth from one of her close friends: "She really wanted you, but you didn't make it happen. She was pretty upset that you didn't really want her."
"Why didn't she just say so then, why did she say we were moving too fast?"
"Of course she said that, you dumbass. She didn't want you to think she was a slut."
Talk about confusing. Apparently in this case even no didn't mean no. It wasn't the last time I've come across "token resistance" that is intended to be overcome either. But that's a line that I am still uncomfortable with testing, for obvious reasons.
But I have learned not to ask when it clearly isn't necessary, or desired.
There's a name for a guy like this -- at least on college campuses: "rapist."
via @KateC
This is what cracks me up about all of Lenona's comments on this issue.
She honestly thinks affirmative consent, and female sexuality is as simple as yes--no.
In her world people say exactly what they mean, and never change their mind.
Nothing could be further from the truth of the matter.
Isab at October 23, 2014 10:01 PM
Isab,
I am glad that you can find this subject so amusing when there are serious consequences on the line for many young people.
Young college men for example are already having their futures stripped from them because people in places of authority confidently assert that people mean what they say and are capable of being unambiguously clear when it comes to sex.
Whether or not this is factually correct has no baring upon how a smart young college man should comport himself at the present time if he wants to secure his own future.
To ensure his own well being he must act as if college women do say exactly what they mean at all times and that female sexuality is as simple as yes/no... to behave otherwise would be foolish.
The unfortunate part about all of this is that so many people fail to have an open and honest discussion about the fact that human sexuality by its very nature has some inconspicuous/ambiguous components to it.
For example, unlike baboons, human beings do not have "honest advertising" of fertility. We have evolved inconspicuous/ambiguous fertility for a variety of reasons.
It would be foolish to believe that we also haven't developed equally ambiguous behaviors when it comes to mating strategies to go along with our inconspicuous fertility display... and yet so many people want to act as if human female desire is in some sense as obvious as a swollen red rump.
Artemis at October 24, 2014 1:20 AM
Artemis, have you ever had a "sexual encounter"?
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 24, 2014 1:35 AM
I was raised by a left-leaning, feminist family...
This guy is screwed (!).
doombuggy at October 24, 2014 2:18 AM
Crid,
All of your questions lack sincerity. You aren't a genuine person.
I'm still waiting for you to answer what degrees you hold and what you do for a living.
For someone who is so curious about the details of everyone's life you do not ever share anything about yourself.
This is what makes you insincere.
Artemis at October 24, 2014 2:28 AM
Artemis,
His email address has been on here for years, and he's in IMDB.
Points should stand on their own. Don't care what you do if your info is right. Crid jumps the shark now and then, but I'm happier he can vote than I am a bunch of others.
Radwaste at October 24, 2014 3:38 AM
"I'm still waiting for you to answer what degrees you hold and what you do for a living."
We know you are a *credentialist* Artemis.
If you can't identify a well educated person by the quality of their writing and the clarity of their arguments, you may be the one who needs some additional education.
And if you are looking for reassurance, about someone's *authenticity* the internet isn't the place to seek it.
There isn't a single credential that can't either be forged or lied about.
But, let me guess,you were an Obama voter, right?
Slick packaging really appeals to your sensibilities. Nice neat little bundles of pc opinions, packed into a well tailored suit.
Isab at October 24, 2014 4:12 AM
Is everyone else being asked to login to AOL when the click 'The Atlantic' link?
lujlp at October 24, 2014 5:51 AM
I think this is the link:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/10/why-a-college-student-abandoned-affirmative-consent/381650/
Old RPM Daddy (OldRPMDaddy at GMail dot com) at October 24, 2014 6:02 AM
Thanks, Old RPM. Fixing that. Been a little snowed lately, and I was tired when I blogged this.
Amy Alkon at October 24, 2014 6:08 AM
I'm still waiting for you to answer what degrees you hold and what you do for a living.
That has what to do with what, precisely? arguments should fall or stand on their own, not because of who is making them.
Otherwise you fall into the trap of credentialism, and run the risk of ignoring very intelligent people just because they don't have the credentials you want. That's bad, because they come at the problem from a different angle, and dare I say it? think outside the box.
I R A Darth Aggie at October 24, 2014 6:37 AM
Lets be honest Radwaste. Crid is riding a shark that is jumping over another shark and has been for years. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
Ben at October 24, 2014 7:24 AM
My takeaway: Underwear-girl (if she actually exists beyond being an exaggerated stand-in to prove a point) is clearly insane, and this young man dodged a bullet of crazy.
Although sadly, I don't find it that hard to believe she exists. A friend of mine just got turned down three times in a row when he asked a girl on a date only to find out that she was insulted he didn't "pursue" her after he backed off. But she's probably insane too and a bullet well dodged.
Apparently in this case even no didn't mean no. It wasn't the last time I've come across "token resistance" that is intended to be overcome either. But that's a line that I am still uncomfortable with testing, for obvious reasons.
Good. Don't test that line. Any woman who draws it is crazy.
sofar at October 24, 2014 7:44 AM
I wonder whether this is a thing young women are more likely to do, what with many of their expectations about sexuality and dating formed by the movies.
They are also more likely to have overblown ideas about romance. Women in my age group (mid-30s) don't seem to have the patience for that game.
MonicaP at October 24, 2014 7:51 AM
"I'm still waiting for you to answer what degrees you hold and what you do for a living."
Because the world answers to angry internet posters?
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at October 24, 2014 8:26 AM
Funny, we're still waiting for you to answer that same question ... or a host of questions that have been asked as to why we should take anything you say seriously.
All you've ever said is your family is highly educated. Nothing about yourself. You won't even tell us if you're a man or a woman.
Over time, folks like Crid have revealed a great deal about themselves. Over time, folks like Isab will reveal something about themselves. You've revealed nothing ... except a very brittle psyche and a worldview that indicates a lack of experience outside a highly structured and sheltered environment (academia, institutionalization, etc.).
While you shouldn't rely solely on credentials (plenty of "educated" idiots out there), knowing a little about why someone should be taken seriously on a subject helps to reinforce their argument. That's why we take MDs and RNs more seriously than Jenny McCarthy on vaccinations - years of study and experience in the medical field vs. posing nude for a magazine.
Actually, we take Shih Tzus more seriously than Jenny McCarthy, but that's another argument altogether. Once you hear her speak and discover her now-dropped assertion that her child was a crystal child and she was an indigo mom, you can't take her seriously on anything. Finding out al that and then finding out the person against whom she's arguing is a medical doctor pretty much destroys her credibility on the subject without even having to hear the arguments of either side.
And while it's unfair (at times) to dismiss someone's argument solely on credentials, you don't go to a plumber if you're having a heart attack.
Smart people with opinions on a variety of subjects can be taken seriously by dint of evidence in their statements that their arguments (and counterarguments) are grounded in reality and show they have given some thought to the matter and have some experience in the gray area we euphemistically call the real world.
You, Artemis/Orion, are capable of one coherent, well-stated thought per thread. While I agree with your opening statement that too many people on the political left act as if female sexuality is as straightforward as male sexuality (and baboon sexuality), if you follow your usual pattern, your counterarguments and further assertions on this matter will devolve into a "you suck" commentary about everyone who disagrees with you and doesn't immediately acknowledge you as a genius on every subject without ever asking why they should.
Conan the Grammarian at October 24, 2014 9:14 AM
Radwaste Says:
"Points should stand on their own. Don't care what you do if your info is right. Crid jumps the shark now and then, but I'm happier he can vote than I am a bunch of others."
Don't be obtuse Radwaste.
I agree exactly with what you are saying... I have been telling this to Crid for months.
The only reason I respond to his stupidity with these questions is because this is the kind of stupidity he always asks me and then complains that I am unwilling to share.
My point is that he cannot have things both ways.
Artemis at October 24, 2014 9:21 AM
From the article: "If his attitude persists among a significant number of [male] college students, it will be a huge obstacle to spreading affirmative-consent culture."
The obstacle to spreading "affirmative-consent culture" is its enthusiastic adoption by college women. If they insist upon it and live by it, it will spread. If they don't, it won't.
Trying to spread it by attacking men isn't going to do it, as this guy's experience shows.
Conan the Grammarian at October 24, 2014 9:21 AM
Conan the Grammarian Says:
"Funny, we're still waiting for you to answer that same question ... or a host of questions that have been asked as to why we should take anything you say seriously."
This is precisely why I ask.
Because you and Crid CONSTANTLY divert actual conversations away from the subject and instead turn it into an interrogation.
I am pointing out the stupidity of your approach.
Apparently you are too thick to get it.
Artemis at October 24, 2014 9:23 AM
Isab Says:
"We know you are a *credentialist* Artemis."
Actually I am not which is why you will find I have never asked what your credentials are.
I honestly do not care.
I bring this up with Crid and Crid only because he is the one who harps about the details of someones life over the actual arguments they make.
He does this over and over and over to the point of absurdity.
As a result I preempt him to make my point.
I note how quickly you, Radwaste, and Conan all instantly noticed the stupidity of such a question when I ask it... yet you are all conspicuously silent when I am besieged by such inane questions despite the fact that I have expressed no interest in sharing personal information.
Artemis at October 24, 2014 9:26 AM
Conan the Grammarian Says:
"While you shouldn't rely solely on credentials (plenty of "educated" idiots out there), knowing a little about why someone should be taken seriously on a subject helps to reinforce their argument."
This is precisely the philosophy that I am arguing is stupid.
People like you cannot have it both ways.
You demand credentials from those you happen to disagree with on a topic, but then have people ranting and raving that credentials are unimportant when asked of them.
This is something people here need to bottom out on.
Are credentials important or not?
Because if they are important for some then they are important for all.
We cannot be selective about who we are vetting here on the basis of who we agree with and who we do not.
I happen to agree with Radwaste here as I have told you countless times before.
The only thing that matters is the argument being made... not who makes it.
Deal with the points and leave the person out of it.
Since you don't seem to agree then I feel quite comfortable asking you detailed questions about your background... yet you and Crid are very silent about your own qualifications on every subject as you derail each and every conversation into a discussion about the details of my life.
Artemis at October 24, 2014 9:32 AM
No, Artemis/Orion, I'm not noting the "stupidity" of the question, when you or anyone asks it. It's not a stupid question.
If you make a specific assertion on a subject requiring expertise (i.e., medical issues), it's not stupid for someone to ask about your credentials or experience.
If you make general assertions or back up specific assertions with cites and/or personal relevance, credentials are less necessary to support your assertions.
People asking for your credentials are wondering what your background is and what knowledge and experience you bring to the table. So far, you are unwilling to tell anyone why they should take you seriously, so most don't.
And yes, credentialism can be a deadly pitfall. Anti-credentialism can be, too. There are plenty of smart-sounding con men who will insist that they don't need credentials to know what they're talking about as they delude you with pseudo-science, homeopathic remedies, populist economic theories, etc.
Conan the Grammarian at October 24, 2014 9:45 AM
Not so. I've revealed a great deal about myself over time on this blog - including that I drive to work in a car and not a pirate.
And who's derailing this conversation over meaningless points? That would be you, Artemis/Orion.
Conan the Grammarian at October 24, 2014 9:50 AM
Ok, I am probably over the hill. But when I was a teenager, it was well know that there were two words that a girl was likely to say either "no" or *no*. Which was which became obvious from context. Only later, once we all grew up into our twenties did girls no longer think they had to pretend to not want sex.
I don't suppose it's really any different today. Any sort of decent guy isn't going to force a girl. That's not the question. What has happened today is simply that (a) government bureaucrats want to be in bed with you, and (b) girls who later regret that they said "no" instead of *no* can now ruin the guy's life.
Stupid radical feminists - ruining everything that the real feminists campaigned so hard for: equality, sexual freedom, etc..
a_random_guy at October 24, 2014 11:27 AM
Anyone could see that Affirmative Consent would be a tricky thing to negotiate, but the Friedersdorf article is showing what a minefield it can really be. Here are a couple things to think about:
First of all, as ARG points out, there's "No," and then there's "Hell no!" The trouble is, the same word might be used for both, and as Friedersdorf's hero relates, discerning which "no" you're hearing isn't all that easy, especially if you've been invited upstairs.
Also: I understand the idea behind Affirmative Consent, but I wonder if its proponents have thought through the burden it places not only on the guy, but on the girl. Affirmatively consenting to sex does require the woman to be crystal clear in her meaning, and requires her to own her decision, one way or the other. While the onus seems to be on the guys right now to understand that "yes and only yes means yes," women will begin to realize that Affirmative Consent leaves little room for ambiguity, and none at all for seduction.
Clumsy as he was, Friedersdorf's hero knew what was at stake, and he wasn't taking any chances. It's enough to make me wonder if celibate light courting will become the latest college craze.
Old RPM Daddy (OldRPMDaddy at GMail dot com) at October 24, 2014 1:28 PM
This has already happened Old RPM Daddy. For a large part that is why you see hookup culture. Men can't pickup women for fear of being kicked out of college, so women have to initiate. Other trends are people dating locals instead of fellow students. If the guy doesn't go to the school they can't kick him out and schools still don't listen to local women's complaints by and large. And you also end up with the dating scum bags effect too. Where all the decent men with something to lose and a hint of intelligence bow out of the dating game. This leaves only the scummiest and most out of touch men in the dating pool.
Ben at October 24, 2014 2:22 PM
Interesting point. And one that definitely may have a long-term effect on society's long-term courting and mating rituals.
Women will become, by legal necessity, the aggressors. Men will become more submissive. This runs counter to the psychological evolution of both sexes.
Conan the Grammarian at October 24, 2014 5:21 PM
Artemis: Ever get laid?
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 24, 2014 6:08 PM
There's a big difference between the examples the emailer gives. Asking for affirmative consent when someone is helping you unbutton your shirt because you're not doing it quickly enough is stupid, infantile, and a mood killer. Pressing on when she says clearly "Stop, this is going too fast" is even more stupid. I don't care whether she was upset afterwards or not, or whether he was meant to "make it happen" to protect her reputation. If it's true (and I generally take these things with a grain of salt), he dodged a bullet there.
But that's a line that I am still uncomfortable with testing
Uncomfortable? No, just don't even think about it. Not right, and just not worth it.
Also, hi Crid! Pissing all over someone else today are we?
Ltw at October 24, 2014 7:55 PM
There are so many targets, always.
But I have perfect perspective, tremendous range, precise targeting, and the will to succeed.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 24, 2014 8:58 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2014/10/24/how_sexy_is_aff.html#comment-5326965">comment from LtwWhen I said "wait," I meant, "Please don't think I'm as slutty as I actually am."
Amy Alkon at October 24, 2014 9:34 PM
Exactly Amy.
Ltw at October 24, 2014 9:53 PM
Amusingly to me, anyway, is very similar things happened to me as the boya mentioned in the article... but 25 years ago. I just chalked it up to inexperienced awkwardness that I had a hard time reading the cues, where to stop, and where NOT to stop.
I suppose the expectation is that if you are good at seduction, the lights will all turn green at the appropriate time... but what percentage of schmoes are good at seduction?
At this point I think we've reached the tipping camel phase of relationships... where every extra issue you pile on the camels back, risks tipping the whole thing over.
Looking good, being a good breadwinner, going at the right speed, saying the right things ... always written and unwritten rules... but you might com out the other end with a mate you were mostly compatible with and a relationship that would work.
The bigger change now is timing, IMHO.
Because now, those permissions can be retroactively revoked. Regardless if she decides in 3 months that she didn't actually consent to the wild monkeysex for a whole weekend, and she was forced...
Or after a while in wedded togetherness, is no longer the bliss she was expecting, and so she nukes the marriage-
The expectation is that a do-over shouldn't be a problem.
Once upon a time, when a jerk guy traded in for next year's model, there were consequences for that. One of which was society ostracized you generally. Unless you were a king or something.
The consequences now for the goose are much more difficult to suss out, because they are subtle.
If guys likely opt out at some level, you have more femme chasing fewer acceptable mates. Are they going to marry down, and then make that guy's life miserable?
Hard to see it when you convince yourself that you are going to be the exception.
Do you just go ahead and have a kid solo, because you are told that you can go it alone, and again be the exception... because while it can be and has been done, nobody mentions how much it will change your direction. Was it where you intended to go?
Do you get bored and nuke the marriage because you'll get your half plus, and then you can do what you want?
Ignoring that you made your lover into an implacable enemy, that you nonetheless cannot escape if you have kids... and so generally you make yourself, and everyone close, miserable for years?
Having unlimited do-overs will have a cost larger than expected. I'll be curious to see if the crash of civilization is one...
If men opt out of our reasons to fight FOR civilization, we are more likely to walk away, or fight against it. There's an entire world of men out there, that don't really care if you say no. The civilization they serve sees women as property.
At what point does that camel tip over? When do men who protect now, throw up their hands and say not my damn problem.
Remember that only men register for the draft, and until that changes, the costs are unequally shared.
I woulda carried my wife on my back forever, all she had to do was pat me on the head like a good doggie, once in a while. But she couldn't be troubled to do even that much. Couple to the incessant verbal ugliness... eventually the nuke sunburn seems preferable to the misery.
She seemed a bit shocked that she didn't get another do-over.
SwissArmyD at October 24, 2014 10:15 PM
Insisting on credentials does mean that you do not have to take anyone seriously if they do not prove themselves to you in some credentialed fashion.
For instance, they may use the opportunity to claim a dollar is not worth a certain amount of time doing work...
As if only a professional jockey can tell if a horse is winning the race.
Radwaste at October 24, 2014 10:58 PM
Artemis has had sex, I'm just not sure in what form. Plus he has a partner--which he's admited to.
I never went to college. I had to work and was too busy paying for all my psychiatric visits and all my meds. In fact I just had to see a psychiatrist to get evaluated for something. Ah huh! I have forgotten what most psychiatrists are like. They are Asperger-like. Artemis is this way too. Stuck in academia as observers of human nature. But they don't live in it--experience it because they naturally can't. It's not in their brains to be attuned to it as anything other than anthropologists.
The only ones bogged down by all this confusing sex bullshit is college educated Americans. More reason to learn a trade people.
And why the hell do we--as a society--- allow women to demand all these qualities from men? Girls gotta be taught realistic shit ya know?
Ppen at October 25, 2014 1:03 AM
Sidebar! (Note textual inset!)
> Stuck in academia as observers of human
> nature. But they don't live in it--
> experience it because they naturally
> can't. It's not in their brains to be
> attuned to it as anything other than
> anthropologists.
Exactly. ☑ Exactly.
> The only ones bogged down by all
> this confusing sex bullshit is college
> educated Americans. More reason to
> learn a trade people.
Fly high, elegant songbird! …For you whistle the sweetest melodies! Fill the valley with your soaring sonata!
(Etc.! Poetic-al stuff!)
> Girls gotta be taught realistic
> shit ya know?
It's always seemed to me that the luckiest get their warnings about reality from a loving and verbal father.
> All of your questions lack sincerity.
Guess again, fear-bot.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 25, 2014 1:45 AM
If you only do ballads, they did it again…
…on the other side of the record.Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 25, 2014 1:49 AM
"I just celebrated my 5 year anniversary with the most amazing person I have ever met... and that relationship wasn't established using the kind of rote short-term mating strategy that you and Amy promote as being the best way to go."
http://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2014/02/cower-rangers.html
I think he's a dude with Aspergers. He's too protective of males--insisting women should ask men out because college educated men are a scarce valuable resource.
Ppen at October 25, 2014 4:32 AM
In all these media debates, there's an inconvenient truth that never gets mentioned.
Many like to sneer that "what is sex really about, if not losing control?"
Well, contrary to what movies and novels usually suggest, "losing control" is a great way to catch/spread a disease. Or to start an unwanted pregnancy. So I don't really understand what they're saying.
There is nothing very spontaneous about using condoms, even if you brought them in advance. Besides, I'd guess that most(?) college women who use IUDs or the pill are already in long-term relationships, since those don't protect against disease - and, again, unfortunately, many young women STILL see using those methods as "sluttish" if they don't have boyfriends.
Luckily for me, I have always refused to bend to peer pressure - it made me angry - so I really don't empathize with the attitudes of modern young college women. That is, I never did, even when I was that age. For starters, I would never have called any woman a "slut" just because other women did. (And the girls I knew didn't use that word either. We had what called "gentility" back then.)
lenona at October 25, 2014 1:25 PM
> my 5 year anniversary with the
> most amazing person I have
> ever met...
Nope. Does not cohere to the body of the postings. Note also that the "person" is genderless— as is, I affirm, our correspondent.
> too protective of males--
I've never sensed a sheltering vibe of any kind. Defensive & detached, but never protective... Never ceding inclusion with any team or sub-population. This social removal exceeds the Aspergerian.
No friends, no family, no genitalia, no education, no temporal cohort, no work, no geography… There probably is an explanation for this phenomena, but it's almost certainly mundane and unflattering. My money's still on long-term institutionalization, either from earliest youth or presently.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 25, 2014 2:58 PM
"It's always seemed to me that the luckiest get their warnings about reality from a loving and verbal father."
Maternal grandmother, 1970s. "Men are after one thing and one thing only."
Oh Grandma, we thought then, you're so behind the times.
Grandma pretty much nailed it.
Lizzie at October 25, 2014 3:18 PM
"I think he's a dude with Aspergers."
Artemis?? I resent this. My son has Asperger's and he is interesting, he is funny, he is entertaining. Artemis is so dry that reading him is like having sand thrown in my eyes.
Lizzie at October 25, 2014 3:24 PM
People with Aspergers can be unlikeable dried up cunts too, just like neurotipicals.
Ppen at October 25, 2014 4:14 PM
Since I have an autistic sibling as well, I've been around many neuro atypicals in my life. They don't know when they're being boorish. I think Artemis knows, and does it deliberately.
Lizzie at October 25, 2014 4:23 PM
Artemis/Orion is someone who desperately wants to be taken seriously, but feels (or knows) that once you know some background, you won't take him (generic pronoun) seriously.
Hence the near-manic insistence that only the argument matters and nothing in the arguer's experience or knowledge base is at all relevant - as if the opinions of any two people on any subject should be considered equal with no consideration of either's training, experience, body of knowledge, or field of study; that anyone subsequently questioning the underlying basis of his initial argument is guilty of credentialism.
He wants us to ignore the lack of real-world exposure and simplistic worldview that his arguments demonstrate - along with his subsequent inability to defend the those arguments.
I think Lizzie might be onto something. He might be doing it deliberately; enjoying the commotion he has stirred up, as if that commotion validates him.
Conan the Grammarian at October 25, 2014 4:45 PM
I think Lizzie might be onto something. He might be doing it deliberately; enjoying the commotion he has stirred up, as if that commotion validates him.
Posted by: Conan the Grammarian at October 25, 2014 4:45 PM
I am not sure this is the case. Artemis is incapable of deceit. Doesn't seem to occur to him that someone else might fake their credentials, and claim greater authority on a subject than they actually have.
He takes the internet and all of us, very personally.
Charlatan detection is an advanced social skill, that few people can reliably do across a broad range of technical subject areas.
Artemis also doesn't detect sarcasm in other people's remarks, which is a sign of an autism spectral disorder.
My best friend, with an IQ in the stratosphere, is like this, and I often have to tell him when I am teasing him.
Artemis was set off by this, in this thread:
"This is what cracks me up about all of Lenona's comments on this issue.
She honestly thinks affirmative consent, and female sexuality is as simple as yes--no."
How many of the rest of you took my statement of finding humor in Lenona's perspective literally?
Isab at October 25, 2014 5:42 PM
"How many of the rest of you took my statement of finding humor in Lenona's perspective literally?"
I interpreted his reaction differently. I guessed (admittedly, guessed) that this subject hits him where he lives. He seems quite capable of deceit to me. If he's on the spectrum, he's certainly the most cagey example I've ever encountered.
Lizzie at October 25, 2014 6:10 PM
> doesn't detect sarcasm in other
> people's remarks, which is a sign
> of an autism spectral disorder.
To wit:
> All of your questions lack
> sincerity.
That's not true, by the way... I sincerely want answers to point-blank questions, but they aren't forthcoming.
Sincerity is a brutal constraint. No sarcasm means no irony. No irony means no adulthood.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 25, 2014 6:38 PM
Jeez, now I'm actually feeling bad, because of another person's feelings.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 25, 2014 7:06 PM
I interpreted his reaction differently. I guessed (admittedly, guessed) that this subject hits him where he lives. He seems quite capable of deceit to me. If he's on the spectrum, he's certainly the most cagey example I've ever encountered.
Posted by: Lizzie at October 25, 2014 6:10 PM
Lizzie, I have no idea how long you have been following Artemis/Orion's posts on Amy's blog, but there is a long history here.
Artemis over analyzes everything, in excruciating detail, and misses the point, in his arguments more often then not.
I don't think this level of naïveté can be consistently faked.
I think PPen and Crid are both very close to the truth, but Artemis/Orion comes across as a bookworm, who thinks the answers to all of life's questions can be found, either by consulting the correct text or the proper authority.
He will latch on to an idea, like: *a raise in the minimum wage, doesn't cause inflation* and then beat it to death.
Artemis tried to use the bell curve to prove how much smarter he/she was than the rest of us, because the numbers *say so* damn it, ----he was in a G&T program in school and is part of the elite......
without taking into account that a blog that debates libertarian ideas might attract more than it's fair share of not only the upper one percent, but also a number of people with advanced degrees, who are experts in their various fields.
About four years ago, I got the best medical opinion I have ever gotten from an M.D. I met here on the forum. This gentleman literally saved my mother's life, in his free time.
Isab at October 25, 2014 8:37 PM
"I don't think this level of naïveté can be consistently faked."
Me neither. Especially every time I make analogies he doesn't get. He tried sarcasm here with Radwaste and failed miserably.
I remember once I said something like "in all of human history women have never asked men out directly" and he took that to mean I literally believed that. That sealed it for me.
I've asked him and he says he's not on the autism spectrum but he reminds me so much of the psychiatrists I see from time to time. Very Asperger-like.
He's admitted he cant talk to "regular" people because they don't speak his language. He doesn't understand college life outside academics. I think he's my age too- admitted as much.
He's been sheltered by his family who is also in academia
Ppen at October 25, 2014 9:13 PM
OK, I'm over it now.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 25, 2014 10:09 PM
Naw. Academia has its nuances and ironies... He/she wouldn't last forty seconds in a tense faculty meeting, or twenty in an beery undergrad mixer.
Neither has the erudition ever been deeper than something you'd see on Wiki. And too many of our bitchslappings have included things like 'You are a person who say things that are not nice' or 'You are not sincere', in just those wordings... Always with the convincing tone of amazement from a new kindergartener who'd expected to collect easy adoration from the entire playground.
Still can't explain the time zone thing, either.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 25, 2014 10:22 PM
Also, the way Lizzie says "on the spectrum" makes it sound kind of outré and alluring.
…Are you MAN enough to live ON THE SPECTRUM???
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 25, 2014 10:28 PM
If he's on the spectrum, he's certainly the most cagey example I've ever encountered.
Posted by: Lizzie at October 25, 2014 6:10 PM
Lizzie, Art isn't cagey - the arc of his discourse is too patterned and predictable to be cagey.
As Conan notes:
"...if you follow your usual pattern, your counterarguments and further assertions on this matter will devolve into a "you suck" commentary about everyone who disagrees with you and doesn't immediately acknowledge you as a genius on every subject without ever asking why they should."
Posted by: Conan the Grammarian at October 24, 2014 9:14 AM
Art argues that facts to the point are what makes an argument credible, however Isab and Ppen have highlighted that he often misses the underlying point of the communication (the more abstract/ not literal concepts) to which he's responding. The facts are not germane to the conversation, and he does not provide a context of personal experience that a reader could use to bridge the gap.
And before Art jumps in to point out that Crid is predictably spastic, I will say that it is only part of his range, and one cannot predict exactly when or where he will take this approach ("how" usually involves use of bold, italics, and all caps, and can include tropes such as "mother love").
Whereas with Art, there is a full pattern, and it is the norm.
Michelle at October 25, 2014 10:34 PM
> tropes
How dare you. They're principles. How dare you.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 25, 2014 11:24 PM
Also, after the Saturday night glass of wine-- I'm trying spell it out for a street audience, using bold and caps and italics and
and all the rest... But it's a Black's-loving attorney who's offended by the playfulness.(E.g., I almost italicized "attorney.")
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 26, 2014 1:26 AM
"Lizzie, I have no idea how long you have been following Artemis/Orion's posts on Amy's blog, but there is a long history here."
I have no memory of Orion and have limited exposure to Artemis. I remember him primarily from the thread about Amy's hat. And yesterday I clicked on the thread Ppen linked to a post about whether women should pursue men, in which Artemis left several comments.
As mentioned, I have an autistic sibling and an autistic child, both high-functioning. Where the line between autism and Asperger's lies is a difficult distinction, so I usually just use autistic. I am going by my experience of my family members and my experience of the autistic people I've met through my brother, through meeting parents of other autistic children, through events that bring autistic people together. Artemis simply doesn't "smell" autistic to me. What I sense beneath his obfuscation is nastiness, and sometimes a wish to wound. Perhaps because he himself has been wounded.
HOWEVER (big however), the reason autism is nowadays classified as a spectrum is because it's been broadened to include many people who would not have been diagnosed as autistic in past decades. Autism looks and sounds a certain way TO ME, and it's not Artemis' way. But as Dr. Mark Crislip noted, "The three most dangerous words in medicine: in my experience."
I said he's cagey because of his clearly stated refusal to give out information about himself. He is consciously controlling what readers here see of him and know about him. That signals to me a desire to shape how he appears, not a trait I associate with the autistic.
I am giving only my impression, based on limited information gleaned through the distorted lens of the internet, so of course there is a very wide margin for error on my part.
Lizzie at October 26, 2014 2:41 AM
"Also, the way Lizzie says "on the spectrum" makes it sound kind of outré and alluring."
It was not my intention to convey that.
Lizzie at October 26, 2014 3:05 AM
> What I sense beneath his obfuscation
> is nastiness, and sometimes a wish to
> wound. Perhaps because he himself has
> been wounded.
The weird part is, she's talking about Artemis, not me.
…Which is fucking incredible.
So!
It's apparent that I now have the power to warp the perception of distant adults through rhetoric alone. I can twist the flow of their understanding as I see fit, whether for purposes sinister or benign… That choice is mine.
What will I do with these freshly-certified superpowers? As the foundations for my enterprise of global conquest stiffen under new loads of achievement, which will be more important to tame next: commerce or government?
Gosh... It's hard to say! To be honest, I hadn't expected to get this far in just 55 short years... So there's going to be some improvisation in the times ahead. Not to worry! The lives of great men have always warned us that dynamic environments require flexible response… I'm prepared to live in the moment.
…Because as noted in a nearby thread, I *am* Mister Class and Quality.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 26, 2014 3:25 AM
> It was not my intention to
> convey that.
Don't take it back. Musical language is fun for everyone, even when misunderstood.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 26, 2014 3:27 AM
Watch the clock: Note glorious passage at 29:52.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 26, 2014 3:34 AM
I can't take back what I never offered. "No irony means no adulthood" means my son will never grow up, even as he is now approaching the legal standard for adulthood. He will not be spared adult-sized problems, especially after his father and I are gone. If anything in this universe can deprive me of my sense of humor, it's that.
Lizzie at October 26, 2014 3:35 AM
Genuine sympathies.
Listen, I think life is a crapshoot. We're all a few genes, or a few butterfly wing-flaps, away from roaring success or crippling failure. It's fun (especially for successful people) to pretend that individuals are the authors of their own good fortune. I'll never believe it.
Autism is unusual, but not THAT unusual. (If you told me that the entire spectrum [so to speak] was as statistically prevalent in the entire population as is rigid homosexuality, I'd believe it.)
God, and Darwin, do not fuck around. Most every human characteristic is with us for a very good reason.
If you're in the mood for a book, I highly recommend this one. One or two dozen people were able to thrive in a time of nearly incalculable loss. The full rainbow of human nature is represented, and described, in their stories, especially that of one of the most appealing characters.
Wink wink. Nudge nudge. Lizzie, read the book.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 26, 2014 3:54 AM
Thank you.
"Listen, I think life is a crapshoot. We're all a few genes, or a few butterfly wing-flaps, away from roaring success or crippling failure. It's fun (especially for successful people) to pretend that individuals are the authors of their own good fortune. I'll never believe it."
My thoughts exactly. So I will read the book.
Lizzie at October 26, 2014 4:00 AM
If you absolutely refuse to read a whole book, here's the short version. (You're missing hundreds of wonderful pages. Buy the book... It's $5± on Amazon.)
Here're some more perspectives on improvisation.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 26, 2014 4:03 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2014/10/24/how_sexy_is_aff.html#comment-5337859">comment from Crid [CridComment at Gmail]Here's the book at Amazon: The Big Short: Inside the Doomsday Machine.
Amy Alkon at October 26, 2014 5:07 AM
"Naw. Academia has its nuances and ironies... He/she wouldn't last forty seconds in a tense faculty meeting, or twenty in an beery undergrad mixer."
I'll give you the faculty meeting but there are a lot of these people on the student side. Especially in the science areas. I've met a fair number of people who got multiple graduate and undergraduate degrees because they were afraid of leaving school. They've done school all their life. They are good at it. They know how this system works. So leaving to find a job is an extremely traumatic event.
Artemis feels like a physics, math, or psychology student. A logical field that doesn't actually deal with reality except in very small doses.
Ben at October 26, 2014 8:17 AM
I git that Art seems enamored of analysis without practical experience, and is only offering an abstracted, textual understanding of the world.
But in order to be an academic, you actually have to have done a bunch of reading and learned some things. That's not in evidence here… There's no shadow from a larger body of thought in the postings. It's surprising that so many of you are inferring that background.
There are a lot of troubled kids in the inner city who're violent and pugilistic. That doesn't mean they're gifted boxers, or that they aspire to become UFC contenders. Too similarly, fighting is what's left for them because encounters based on better approaches aren't possible.
Doesn't mean they're into it, exactly....
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 26, 2014 8:37 AM
Besides— You and I may (and should) know better, but academics are by definition prouder of themselves than they deserve to be. Most of the rest of our culture lets them get away with it.
Orion/Art no more boasts of academic credentials than of experience with drunkards, or with airplanes, or with any of the other topics about which the air has blown hot and hard. But edjumicated people will never pass up a chance to preen.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 26, 2014 8:54 AM
... But it's a Black's-loving attorney who's offended by the playfulness.
Posted by: Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 26, 2014 1:26 AM
And what's not to love about a dictionary! As exciting as they are though, my warm fuzzy feelings are for Strunk & White - old school, simple, useful, fits in the back pocket. I don't always agree with it, but it can be good to know where you stand.
I'm all for playfulness - it's when you throw around the trifecta of italics, bold, and all-caps within the same sentence, upending discourse like a warthog through a truffle forest, I've learned to step back and enjoy the spectacle.
Also, I aspire to your text formatting abilities.
---
Lizzie, I think shows like the Big Bang Theory are raising awareness about people on the spectrum, and from what I've seen circulating on the Internet and heard in conversations in Pittsburgh (CMU = lots of exposure to people on the spectrum) more "neurotypical" people now have a way of understanding and a willingness to be considerate while interacting with people on the spectrum.
There are also socializing groups for people in the spectrum, to discuss, practice, and get coaching about social interactions. This can include discussions about feeling isolated, lonely, misunderstood - and how those feelings are experienced by neurotypical people too. Wanted to mention that on the slim chance it wasn't already on your radar.
Michelle at October 26, 2014 9:01 AM
As an addendum and not necessarily directly related to Artemis:
I've been running into a peculiar phenomenon more and more often at work. When somebody behaves like a self-important, obtuse, and rude jackass several people are wont to opine, "He probably has Asperger's" or "He's probably on the spectrum."
Maybe he doesn't have Asperger's. Maybe he's a merely a self-important, obtuse, rude jerk.
Lizzie at October 26, 2014 9:08 AM
"There are also socializing groups for people in the spectrum, to discuss, practice, and get coaching about social interactions. This can include discussions about feeling isolated, lonely, misunderstood - and how those feelings are experienced by neurotypical people too."
I appreciate your suggestion. I have been coming to believe lately that the answer for him lies not as much in what is termed "mainstreaming" as it does in more interaction with people similar to himself.
Lizzie at October 26, 2014 9:15 AM
Except, he/she is so secretive about revealing any credentials. Most professional students want you to know how educated and expert they are. That's their validation.
Artemis/Orion is obsessively secretive about revealing any details - as if the reveal will give you reasons to dismiss his/her viewpoints (as if there weren't enough reasons to dismiss already contained within his/her postings). This is not a person whose background would give him/her a "Ha! See, I am smarter than you." reveal.
And the Greek mythology-based Orion-to-Artemis arc of his/her name indicates a person that lives mostly inside his/her own head.
Conan the Grammarian at October 26, 2014 9:21 AM
> And what's not to love about
> a dictionary!
Lawyers get upset when they realize that other professions don't make clerking interns stay up late knocking out cites with such fussy formatting, thassall....
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 26, 2014 1:04 PM
The U.S. legal citation formatting frenzy is busywork assigned by people with no faith in humanity. Judge Posner called it: http://abovethelaw.com/2011/01/quote-of-the-day-judge-posner-benchslaps-the-bluebook/
Unfortunately the fetish does not in effect compel clerks to read and think about the cases to which they site.
The Blue Book is the perfect gift for any bonfire party.
Michelle at October 26, 2014 1:15 PM
All of life's a circle, Michelle... When sharing the Nozick link (above) on earlier occasions, I've almost always placed it next to this. That pair well describes my resentment of America's self-regarding apple polishers.
There are more important things in life than being smart.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 26, 2014 1:47 PM
I think Art is a teacher. Possibly on an American military base in the Pacific since there is no indication of any experience with the real world, outside of school. (And the time zone thing)
But could be with another English speaking school since DoD can be hard to get into, unless they are desperately short of science teachers.
Definitely science or Psych since Art displays the characteristics of someone with a smattering of knowledge that you would expect from someone who is not an expert in any particular field but was exposed to all of them in the superficial way you get with an Ed degree.
Clearly young, as PPen believes.
Very defensive about pedagogy, and tenure, as many of my teacher relatives are. (I think this spilled over into the minimum wage argument,)
Many other indicators, but as you all know, it is very tedious to go back through all the dreck Art posted to pull up the clues.
Isab at October 26, 2014 3:34 PM
Crid - uncanny. Thank you.
Ppen - I hold you in high regard for doing something so challenging, so well.
Lizzie - no shortage of self important, obtuse jerks :). But if the Spectrum is a consideration that gives people pause from returning the serve in a game not worth winning - there's an opportunity.
Michelle at October 26, 2014 6:19 PM
Isab——
> I think Art is a teacher. Possibly
> on an American military base
MMmmm... Just not getting that scholarly vibe. Even teachers need to be able to soften a room for a job interview or a parent-teacher conference or an individual lesson with a pupil, and I just can't imagine that from this person.
> defensive about pedagogy, and tenure
Ah, yeah... It's funny. That first impression (airline drunkards) was so pungent that subsequent chats recorded no mark on my memory. It never mattered what was being discussed, because it was that same ol' commenter, with the same ol' weaknesses. We've had maybe half a dozen 10-messages exchanges: I recall only the first and the last, and the memory of this one is fad ing a s I t y p
Michelle——
> uncanny
Posner seems to be one of our most fascinating legal minds in general contexts, but (to a layman) he's impenetrably dull in longform. (Note that I linked to book review.) (Sorry for the ital.)
OK, I've had my fun. I mean it this time.Ben——
Take a look at the Posner review. It contains one of my favorite descriptions of academic life. Having been raised on a campus but being no bookworm myself, reading the passage in midlife was a cleansing experience:
(emphasis: Cridmo)Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 26, 2014 7:50 PM
> I think Art is a teacher. Possibly
> on an American military base
MMmmm... Just not getting that scholarly vibe. Even teachers need to be able to soften a room for a job interview or a parent-teacher conference or an individual lesson with a pupil, and I just can't imagine that from this person.
I have seen a lot of applications, and resumes, as well as personally experiencing some of the most damaged and dysfunctional individuals to ever stand In front of a classroom.
High school and Jr. high teaching has been so dumbed down, (well all of it really) and the teachers ed curriculum so mechanistic and trite, that you would be amazed at the number of anti social, unsuitable individuals who have gotten through it.
This is particularly true in science and math where there are shortages.
What you need to get hired as a teacher, is academic connections, (i.e. a close friend or relative who is connected to the NEA) or already works in the district. Art has admitted to having those connections.
A rigorous defense of tenure by Art, and no claims to any advanced degrees, has been enough for me to place my bets in that direction.
I would guess that Art knows (whatever his I.Q) that a truthful claim to having a B.S in secondary education, with certification in science or math, would be rightly derided by the engineers, scientists, and doctors who post here.
Probably even by some of the lawyers, who know how worthless those Ed degrees really are.
Isab at October 26, 2014 8:27 PM
Methinks Artemis is one of those artificial intelligence thingies nerds are working on.
Dave B at October 26, 2014 9:12 PM
The Deeb.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 26, 2014 10:00 PM
That is a rather dense link Crid. I'll assume Dutton presents Posner accurately. After all, I can't see any real reason to bend things. And certainly not for that many pages.
I largely agree with Posner's positions. And definitely with your specific quote. Though for the hard sciences postadolecent is not the right word. ET or alien would apply better. And I really don't have enough experience to talk about the super fluffy science types.
I've known a fair number of brilliant people in the hard sciences and there is often a significant failure to communicate. There are things that are so obvious to them they just don't know how to describe it. And the flip side is there as well. There are things that are so obvious to most people no one mentions them that these people don't see. I've seen some become quite cruel and verge on violence because they are so frustrated with their failure to communicate. Kind of like how Alzheimer patients act.
But Posner is correct in context. The people who go on TV and present their views as 'from science' are typically postadolecent. They also typically aren't that skilled. I get a real Paris Hilton of nuclear physics vibe from some of them.
---
I could see Artemis as an Ed degree.
Ben at October 26, 2014 10:18 PM
Again, see the Nozick as well....
> The people who go on TV and present
> their views as 'from science' are
> typically postadolecent.
I so strongly agree with this.
I so strongly agree with this.
The last thing, the LAST thing that science needs is cheerleaders.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 27, 2014 12:27 AM
Science doesn't care about your enthusiasm. Does NOT.
People who think it's about good cheer rather than difficult investigation annoy.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 27, 2014 12:29 AM
> I could see Artemis as an Ed degree.
Even then, not with a job for it.
Man, I wish there was a way for us to bet five dollars on this & find out the truth: Winner gets half, Gregg buys Amy dinner with the other half.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 27, 2014 12:33 AM
> I could see Artemis as an Ed degree.
Even then, not with a job for it.
Man, I wish there was a way for us to bet five dollars on this & find out the truth: Winner gets half, Gregg buys Amy dinner with the other half.
Posted by: Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 27, 2014 12:33 AM
Yes. I would bet more money on the Ed degree, than the employed part too.
But he/she is either west of Hawaii or working graveyard, at some slacker job with access to the internet.
But I suppose there is always the night owl still living in Mom and Dad's basement.
Isab at October 27, 2014 12:55 AM
You've been out of school for too long Crid. You don't realize how weird and anti-social some teachers are today.
I have a relative who graduated from high school a few years ago. Her calculus teacher was some sort of long haired hippy thing. At the start of the semester his hair would be short. He wouldn't cut it till the last days of class. He then gifted the best student with a bag of his cut hair.
She and her classmates were intentionally answering questions wrong or not doing homework so they could be second best. They wanted an A. But no one wanted a creepy bag of greasy hair!
This is not a new teacher. He has been doing this for years. While not in the majority this type of behavior is not that odd for public school.
Ben at October 27, 2014 6:57 AM
It can never, ever be the case that I've been away from school for too long. That is not possible.
Maybe the guy works for NOAA.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 27, 2014 9:54 AM
Maybe no one read my October 25, 1:25 PM post, but anyway...
If anyone didn't get it, my point was that even if you're a heterosexual male, there IS no such thing as truly spontaneous, carefree sex in this century. Some would say that began in the mid-1990s, when child support laws grew a few real teeth. Others would say it began in the 1970s, when genital warts and herpes became known - that is, diseases that can't be prevented that easily with condoms alone. Not to mention hepatitis. (And even if you already have a disease, chances are you'll get sued if you infect someone else - especially if it's a disease that's incurable.)
So maybe we should stop complaining about the death of "romance"?
BTW, Miss Manners once goofed on this subject, IMO. That is, she (predictably) had no patience with young women who wanted to know the "polite" way to ask young men they hardly know if the latter have STDs, but MM also admitted that saving sex for marriage doesn't always work, since even in Victorian times, there were virgin brides who got infected on their wedding nights by their non-virgin, parent-approved bridegrooms. So it would seem that such an unromantic, "uncivilized" conversation WOULD be in order at some point - but MM didn't say how the conversation might go! What gives? After all, a demure, ignorant Victorian bride could hardly be expected to raise the subject herself!
lenona at October 27, 2014 10:10 AM
A Victorian bridegroom was unlikely to know he had a social disease - until it was too late and stuff started falling off or insanity set in.
The cure, if one did understand one had picked up something, was often pretty gruesome.
Conan the Grammarian at October 27, 2014 10:46 AM
Lenona, is there a polite (worthwhile) way to have sex?
It's appropriate to point out to young ladies and other people that one's willingness to begin and thoroughly complete this uncomfortable conversation is an indication of whether one is up for having the myriad uncomfortable conversations that can become necessary during and after sex. There can be a lot of awkwardness present on the way to comfortable, and you can't surrender control without owning that you have it.
.
Michelle at October 27, 2014 12:10 PM
☑ Michelle at October 27, 2014 12:10 PM
Because I'm all like, 'Victorian huh? WGAF?' The century is not the problem.
The reason we all admire Judith Martin is that she is NOT a priss. Less-appealing parts of our nature are to be dealt with, not wished away.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at October 27, 2014 12:40 PM
A Victorian bridegroom was unlikely to know he had a social disease - until it was too late and stuff started falling off or insanity set in.
___________________________________
Maybe, but he certainly wasn't unlikely to know about the existence of STDs, per se, what with all the scary literature out there - often promoted by the churches, I assume. (Not to mention the knowledge that the most common way, at least, to get them is through intercourse. Hepatitis was and is a glaring exception.) So if he wasn't a virgin, the least he could do was try to find out how long it takes for certain symptoms to show up before getting married and infecting some innocent girl. It would only be fair.
Here's the MM column, if you like (from 1982):
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1346&dat=19821212&id=gqpOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=jPsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6432,4399379
For some reason, when it was reprinted in the "Courtship and Romance: Methods of Meeting" section in her book "Miss Manners' Guide for the Turn-of-the-Millennium," the last two paragraphs were left out.
lenona at October 27, 2014 3:22 PM
The Pettybones will not be receiving a card from me this year. Three lines just to include their titles is more writing than I care to do.
Conan the Grammarian at October 27, 2014 3:34 PM
Lenona, is there a polite (worthwhile) way to have sex?
_________________________________
Depends on your definition of "worthwhile."
For a lot of men, straight or gay, the only "worthwhile" type is with strangers and/or hookers. I.e., people whose names you aren't expected to remember. Condoms would go without saying, but according to the famous hooker Dolores French, at least, even with women like her, men tend to have their own set of formalities when approaching her - if only to avoid assuming a woman is a hooker when she isn't. (It's described in her book, "Working.")
Besides, while it may be safe to say that the vast majority of women over 40 do not want casual sex (as opposed to premarital sex), that doesn't necessarily mean that younger women like casual sex either. That is, a lot of women - of all ages - like to be wooed over a period of weeks if not months. (If trashy romance novels get even one thing right - maybe - it's that only a woman who's firmly restricted her list of sex partners is likely to find long-term happiness with one man. Even DATING lots of men without sleeping with any of them can lead to a very scarred heart.)
Call me dense, but I'm afraid you'll have to spell out what you mean in your second paragraph. Examples, please?
lenona at October 27, 2014 3:45 PM
"So if he wasn't a virgin, the least he could do was try to find out how long it takes for certain symptoms to show up before getting married and infecting some innocent girl. It would only be fair."
Dude. Come on.
Ppen at October 27, 2014 4:44 PM
Lenona - A woman who is considering having sex with someone she hardly knows is beyond the pale of polite social discourse, or intercourse, regardless of the rules of etiquette.
There is no polite way for a lady to ask a man she hardly knows, whether he has an STI - unless she's a medical professional.
If she's uncomfortable with that and unwilling to navigate her discomfort - that conundrum is hers to deal with. Go big (girl) or go home (safe and solo).
And thank you Crid for the link to Ms. Martin's distinctions.
Michelle at October 27, 2014 10:13 PM
I never said I disagreed with Miss Manners about STDs and sex with near-strangers, per se. I just don't see why MM couldn't be bothered to acknowledge that yes, it IS very difficult and awkward to raise the subject, even with someone you've known for years and hope to marry - and more importantly, there SHOULD be an officially polite way to ask the questions of the person you're engaged to - or almost engaged to.
But there isn't. All too often, if you don't like the idea of just using condoms and trusting those to do the job when they might not, the other person is going to be insulted on one level or another. The same goes, I suspect, when a woman who's saving sex for marriage suspects HE isn't a virgin and either says so or asks him to get thoroughly checked by the doctor before the wedding, instead of just trusting him to do so.
lenona at October 28, 2014 1:47 PM
Lenona, that's a very different scenario than a woman asking a man she barely knows about his STI status for the purpose of having sex with him - a practice that in the U.S. is per se not part of polite society - or at least was not until recently.
Depending on when that Ms. Manners column was written, there might not have been a cultural context for grasping the idea of "polite" recreational (not professional/ paid) sex between a woman and a man who is a near stranger. Frank comments could have been read as sex advice and therefor inappropriate for a manners column. Between a woman and her fiance or husband, the advice could be read as more appropriate to marriage communication counseling.
I read Ms. Manners' column in high school, well over 20 years ago, and I don't recall it well enough but from how I remember it, I think that kind of conversation would have been outside the scope of expectations for her column (maybe a better fit for the more wide-ranging Dear Abby).
Where manners leave off, it helps to be clear about what you want to accomplish, your values/ priorities, your BATNA, and to be considerate of the other person.
Amy's work and writing has shed a lot of light for me on what to consider, how to be considerate, and how to be effective in light of our design. I brought her book Good Manners for Nice People with me during a 2 month stay in a new city at a time when my stress level was at an all-time high and there were high stakes and no right path. The research and situations Amy covered were incredibly helpful insights to have when interacting with so many different people and in situations where I don't have prior experience, a role model, a safety net, or a clue. Especially helpful for improvising in those WTF moments.
Twenty one years ago, there was no advice to be had on safer sex practices between women (at least, not that my doctor knew of, and there was no truly World Wide Web to turn to). With my first love, I wasn't worried about begin polite - young, in love, and excluded from polite society by virtue of embracing something with the consequence of being socially aberrant. I was happy about not having to worry about pregnancy, and too naive to foresee how else things could go wrong. It ended badly and I was so green I didn't know that was almost unavoidable.
With the second love I had a better idea of my basic requirements and a suck-it-up approach to my own discomfort that came from knowing the vulnerability and possible exposure and rejection were preferable to proceeding under the false pretenses of ambiguous expectations. So I said, "we need to talk about safer sex practices." Only after I put my cards on the table did I realize how presumptuous I was being and followed up with, "that is, if you want a second date." We just celebrated our 20 anniversary. I can't say that I knew what I was doing for the first 8-10 years.
There's something to be said for caring so much about something that you are willing to do it badly while giving your best - and I think the conversations about STIs fall into that category.
Michelle at October 28, 2014 3:54 PM
So I said, "we need to talk about safer sex practices."
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That's all very well, provided that, if you really don't want to risk "safer sex," you're willing to say so. That is, for many a woman, gay or straight, using two or more forms of protection isn't good enough for her peace of mind - she wants to know her partner is clean, or no sex. End of story.
lenona at October 28, 2014 4:51 PM
Lenona that knowledge takes time and good instincts. Few people get a complete STI panel after their last partner and have that clean bill of health under their belt before having casual sex. For some things there are no shortcuts. Having sex with someone you barely know is risky behavior, and STIs are only one of the risks.
Speaking of risky behavior, I am apologizing to you now for the inevitable occasion on which I respond to you before my morning coffee has kicked in and don't catch how auto correct turns "lenona" into "lemons" or "lemonade." No offense intended.
Michelle at October 28, 2014 7:25 PM
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