It's "Wrong" To Call Women "Honey" And "Sweetie"?
Kurt Bayer writes for the NZ Herald of an earthquake recovery boss, Roger Sutton, resigning and speaking with great shame about calling women in his workplace "honey" and "sweetie."
This seems like a parody but it's for real:
"Hugs, jokes ... I do do those things, and I've hurt somebody with that behaviour and I'm very, very sorry about that," Mr Sutton said."But I am who I am. I have called women 'honey' and 'sweetie', and that is wrong. That's a sexist thing to do, and I'm really sorry."
...Ms Malcolm was shocked by the chain of events that led to his resignation.
"It's been hideous. He's a really good man," she said.
"Why have his hugs and jokes been misinterpreted? I have no idea. But he's a touchy-feely person. In Christchurch, we hug everybody and I can't understand it.
"He's a really good man - he's far nicer than I am. He's far more compassionate than I am, but he's also really silly. And that's kind of what I love about him.
"I think he kind of forgot that he was the leader of the public service and he's too informal, he's too relaxed ... but that's who he is. That's what makes him amazing, and why his staff, the Cera staff, love him."
...The employee who raised the complaint is still with Cera.
Mr Rennie met her today to apologise for the "hurt and distress" she experienced.
I'm not real fond of being called "idiot" or "bitch," but "honey" or "sweetie"?
If you feel that in some way hurts or demeans you, here's how you respond if you actually are an equal to men and belong in an adult workplace:
If you, as an adult, don't like what someone's calling you, tell them.
If they persist, tell them again.
Chances are, they'll stop.
If they are saying it as some form of sneering harassment, and if this is somehow preventing you from doing your job, you go to HR.
Like a grownup.
I dunno... How "grownup" is going to HR to ask Corporate LoveDaddy for help with the meen man?
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at November 23, 2014 10:49 PM
It isn't Crid but I know I'll get reprimanded/fired if I don't.
Ppen at November 23, 2014 10:51 PM
Just tonight, not more than two hours ago, a waitress called me sweetie. I believe the exact statement was "Hey Sweetie, do you want another?"
This reminded me of a woman I worked with a very long time ago and only for about 1 month - ironically I have forgotten her name. She insisted for small groups that names need to be listed. Otherwise credit was being hidden. so for example: The XYZ Software team (Cindy Brown, Bill Johnson, Tara Smith, Ranji Singh, Jo-queisha Washington, Carlos Villalobos) completed the Delta Beta project on time and under budget. It was OK for larger groups to not do that such as "The IT Division completed the upgrade with minimal impact to the rest of the team - Thanks to all 57 of you."
The Former Banker at November 23, 2014 11:59 PM
I traveled through Missouri twice a couple of years ago. Every single woman waitress, hostess, or desk clerk called both me and my husband *honey* or *Hon* .
I think it is Missourian for *you guys*.
I found it quite charming. And totally inoffensive.
Isab at November 24, 2014 1:14 AM
> I'll get reprimanded/fired if I don't
Right, yes, but… We know that the corporate versions of correct company citizenship and the kinds which get our needs met rarely have anything to do with each other, whether its dealing with sexual pettiness or other belittling behaviors, or getting attention enough for a raise.
Second time I've recycled this old comment:
Several years ago, there was a lady General in the United States Army who complained about sexual harassment. Imagine what it would be like to be a soldier under her command, a young person (man or woman) carrying deadly force in the line of fire... A grunt in theater whose life depended on her steel judgment and warmaking impulse. Then imagine learning that your proud commander had fled to authority because a neighbor boy made 'bad touch.'
Are we ever, ever permitted to demand that people simply be strong in the face of adversity?
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at November 24, 2014 1:20 AM
> I think it is Missourian for *you guys*.
☑
Also Hoosier.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at November 24, 2014 1:21 AM
I think people who are wrong about this are probably thinking that there's something that institutions can do to make there participants feel 100% comfortable with need of courage, confrontation or sacrifice.
And I don't think that can always be the case for anyone, ever. It doesn't matter what setting we're talking about. Women in the workplace will have to deal with bad stuff from others because it's the workplace. It's no more likely to be personally offensive for women than for men. Men have always been tyrants towards each other in the workplace.
And I think foolishness about this will scale up in terms of one's appreciation of the world's hazards.
In this clip, a few of my favorite blowhards blow real hard about the incompetence of the Obama administration in international affairs. Obama's entire team is composed of people who think those naughty Russians just need to grow up and carry themselves like proper gentlemen. They've all made built their careers in prissy little offices, and never actually earned a dollar or faced a conflict with anyone over something worldly.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at November 24, 2014 1:38 AM
I didn't see anything in the story about how long this had been going on, whether there had been numerous complaints or just one, and so forth.
But again, look at what kind of behavior is getting rewarded. What did it take to destroy Roger Sutton? Just a complaint. Just a denunciation. Where have we heard about that kind of thing before?
Old RPM Daddy (OldRPMDaddy at GMail dot com) at November 24, 2014 4:09 AM
You know, I come from a long line of waitresses and every single one of us called everyone "sweetie" or "honey" or "hon" or something similar at one time or another. Usually because we didn't know your name. Even when I worked in construction, if I couldn't remember someone's name right away, it was "hey hon, where'd you put the ballasts?" or something. I say it to kids, adults, teens, blacks, whites, idiots, savants, I don't care. If you get your shorts in a twist about it, tell me and I'll stop. I've only ever had 2 people ask me not to call them "hon" and I said, "well then can you please remind me what your name is, because I forgot"! I've never gotten into trouble with HR about it because most of the people I've dealt with have just told me they didn't want to be called that, and I stopped. When I remembered to. Sometimes I'm just absent-minded that way. I don't mean it as an insult in any way, shape or form, but if someone takes it that way, I'll apologize. I just don't understand how everybody's skin got so thin. Doesn't anyone know how to stand up for themselves anymore??
Flynne at November 24, 2014 4:52 AM
@Flynne: I just don't understand how everybody's skin got so thin.
Because being thin-skinned pays off. Standing up for oneself doesn't.
Old RPM Daddy (OldRPMDaddy at GMail dot com) at November 24, 2014 5:23 AM
I was at work once, and a male coworker (whom I consider a close friend) addressed a female coworker, "Can you read to me what that says, honey?"
Then, quickly realizing that such language is not appropriate for the workplace, he said, "I call everyone I like 'honey.'"
So, I said, "You never call me 'honey!'"
Without missing a beat, he replied, "I never said I liked you."
Patrick at November 24, 2014 5:42 AM
Crid, the HR thing wouldn't be my approach unless I were going through some serious daily shit from a co-worker, and I think I generally come off as the wrong person to bully (not that I work in a "workplace").
Ppen makes the point here -- it's workplace procedure.
I still am horrified over the witch hunt that brought down blogs editor Bora Zivkovic from Sci Am. The guy talked about sex once during lunch and it was "Off with his head." An adult woman should be able to say, "Hey, let's change the subject." And if somebody doesn't want to hire you because you say that, it's probably because you're not all that great at what you do. Back when I worked at a big company, I saw that they would hire you if you had the chops -- even if you had some accompanying really bad qualities. And this was true of employees and TV commercial directors.
Amy Alkon at November 24, 2014 6:41 AM
I'm not an HR person but they tie my hands behind my back sometimes. I have been reprimanded and warned for not reporting verbal abuse that I found inoffensive.
Ppen at November 24, 2014 7:17 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2014/11/24/its_wrong_to_ca.html#comment-5550211">comment from PpenI have been reprimanded and warned for not reporting verbal abuse that I found inoffensive.
Yes, this is the insanity that now goes on in the workplace.
Amy Alkon at November 24, 2014 8:16 AM
I'm missing an earthquake. Held lots of sentimental value to. Now I doubt I'll ever get it back.
jerry at November 24, 2014 8:32 AM
Zivkovic of course is just one among many with shirtstorm, I mean Sutton being the latest. (And including teachers who post pictures of themselves on Facebook holding a glass of wine.)
The internet makes this crap go viral, brings loads of demands down, and makes it harder for employers to treat things better.
The American Astronomical Society was somehow "compelled" to release a statement on shirtstorm condemning the shirt, even though the AAS is not Taylor's employer, is an American organization and not a European one, and is a research/membership/conference group and not a space agency. Poor AAS, I hope they get help for their compulsions.
jerry at November 24, 2014 8:38 AM
Early in my career, I was the only guy in a department run by a woman who had been promoted well beyond her competence. I probably could have filed a harassment complaint, but in those days harassment and creating a hostile workplace environment were still new legal concepts.
In managing me, she was a micro-manager where she was hands-off with my female coworkers. The company had a PA paging system and she constantly used it to page me while I was in other departments tracking down reconciliation items as part of my job. She almost never paged any of my female coworkers when they left their desks. Two of the four women in that department told me many times that she was a (rhymes with) witch to me.
She constantly asked me about my roommate, who also worked for the company. She had a (let's say) romantic interest in him despite being married and my roommate having told her he had no romantic interest in her. She even moved into our apartment complex.
A woman in another department asked me how I put up with her. I didn't. I applied for and got a better job in another department. Bonus: in that new job, I outranked her in the company hierarchy.
Conan the Grammarian at November 24, 2014 8:39 AM
I find that when someone gets particularly galling I just switch to military mode and answer them with ‘yes ma’am’ and ‘no ma’am’ (or ‘yes/no sir’ if a man). Not said with any infection, attitude or tone, just in a matter-of-fact, closed-loop way you do in the military. Unless they are from the Deep South (or were raised in a military household) the men tend to become annoyed and uncomfortable. Women will visibly cringe when you call them ma’am, especially if they are not of the age they would consider themselves a ‘ma’am’. Maybe this is a way to easily shut down those who feel demeaned by someone calling them ‘honey’ or ‘dear’.
Doc Jensen at November 24, 2014 10:05 AM
I find that when someone gets particularly galling I just switch to military mode and answer them with ‘yes ma’am’ and ‘no ma’am’ (or ‘yes/no sir’ if a man). Not said with any infection, attitude or tone, just in a matter-of-fact, closed-loop way you do in the military. Unless they are from the Deep South (or were raised in a military household) the men tend to become annoyed and uncomfortable. Women will visibly cringe when you call them ma’am, especially if they are not of the age they would consider themselves a ‘ma’am’. Maybe this is a way to easily shut down those who feel demeaned by someone calling them ‘honey’ or ‘dear’.
Posted by: Doc Jensen at November 24, 2014 10:05 AM
Extremely good tactic.
Southern men are raised to have excellent manners. I asked one of my friends from North Carolina why their manners were so good.
His answer: "Our mothers and grandmothers would have slapped the *shit* out of us, if they weren't "
Isab at November 24, 2014 10:35 AM
Of course, it was a late night typo. It should have read withOUT need of… etc.
You always have to be brave, because it's life. You'll always have conflicts, because it's life in the workplace. Women eager to presume they're being disproportionately targeted are risking very qualities that make progress possible.
I was working in the Ozarks once and a tech got a little too flirtatious with a moderately brassy secretary. She promptly humiliated the shit out of him, right there in the lobby, and it wasn't a problem any more. I can barely remember her words, but her body language will be with me always... As will his dumbstruck mug.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at November 24, 2014 10:59 AM
Good manners during an armed robbery.
gooseegg at November 24, 2014 12:30 PM
here you go gooseegg
http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/robbers/2823758
lujlp at November 24, 2014 6:02 PM
I didn't see anything in the story about how long this had been going on, whether there had been numerous complaints or just one
Good point. An eight week investigation for a single incident would be ridiculous, but who knows, I wouldn't be surprised if it was only a once or twice thing. "Honey" doesn't seem sexist, anyway.
Several years ago, there was a lady General in the United States Army who complained about sexual harassment
I hadn't heard of this before now so there might be more to it, but from the link it seems like she made a good call on her colleague. The guy was up for Inspector General. He's an idiot for making a move like that.
This Air Force Sexual Assualt Prevention Chief got his ass kicked by the woman he made "bad touch" with -- and he lost his job. Hilarious.
Seems like there's a lot of it going on lately.
Jason S. at November 24, 2014 6:35 PM
> she made a good call on her colleague.
So, when you say "good call," do you mean you think a properly-running society can and should step forward to offer, through administrative services, perfectly-tuned relief for individuals who are inappropriately —or merely unpleasantly— challenged by others?
Because I don't think so.
And if I'm putting words in your mouth, it would be great if you could flesh out what constitutes a "good call," because that's the part that's indistinct. We need to see that you've thought it through.
ARMY GENERAL. Collar-stars. Warfare, etc.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at November 24, 2014 8:48 PM
"Several years ago, there was a lady General in the United States Army who complained about sexual harassment
"I hadn't heard of this before now so there might be more to it, but from the link it seems like she made a good call on her colleague. The guy was up for Inspector General. He's an idiot for making a move like that."
He was an idiot, but so was she.
It is impossible for a junior officer to harass a superior. The power was all hers.
Back in the 80's I was touched many times while I was in the Army, occasionally inappropriately, but nothing rose to the level of a sexual assault. Just interested men testing the waters.
And we have all been slobbered on by drunks a time or two haven't we?
That *good touch, bad touch* bullshit is for grilling four year olds in a psychiatrists office, and not a basis for one general officer filing a complaint against another. Sheesh.
Isab at November 24, 2014 8:58 PM
She was a General. For a junior officer to disrespect a General like that is absurd. Decorum, honor and all that.
Yes, the power was all hers and she had the guy canned as it should be. It would've been better if she put his ass in a sling before he was canned, like what happened to the Air Force dipshit.
Jason S. at November 24, 2014 9:50 PM
"She was a General. For a junior officer to disrespect a General like that is absurd. Decorum, honor and all that."
In truth, you don't know what happened. We only have her side of the story.
She was a two star at the time, and he was a one star. Not enough rank difference for there to be a question of automatic impropriety.
"Yes, the power was all hers and she had the guy canned as it should be."
He wasn't canned. She made the complaint three years after the alleged incident. Long after she should have either dealt with it or forgotten about it.
She only stopped him from becoming I.G.
Isab at November 24, 2014 10:14 PM
> Yes,
No, please don't pretend that's what you were asked, when--
> the power was all hers and she had
> the guy canned
--when you're being avoidant. Specifically, if 'the power' were her own, she'd have "canned" the guy herself, rather than 'having' it done on her behalf.
Because you decline to speak in an affirmative, your answer to the question has to be presumed through logic: Yeah, you believe administrative policies show make workplaces safe and socially unthreatening.
Okay! Good to know.
You coulda just said so. Can't imagine why you don't want to.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at November 24, 2014 10:27 PM
Whoops, SHOULD make workplaces... etc.
Sorry listening to St Louis scanners as I type.
(Interesting deets from Isab.)
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at November 24, 2014 10:32 PM
She only stopped him from becoming I.G.
True. That's what I meant by "canned", but it's not the correct word use.
Good point about the timeline of the accusations.
Jason S. at November 24, 2014 10:48 PM
I'm getting tired of these years-later complaints of impropriety. Long after evidence and eyewitness testimony can be collected and analyzed. Long after anything can be proven (or disproven).
They amount to little more than smear campaigns intended to ruin a career or reputation. Or, more likely, to prevent someone the complainant was once a superior to from getting ahead in rank, prestige, or authority.
And that's what she wanted to do. She wasn't trying to stop his behavior, make him change his ways, or save anyone else from his harassment - just to prevent him from getting ahead of her.
Conan the Grammarian at November 25, 2014 8:20 AM
And that's what she wanted to do. She wasn't trying to stop his behavior, make him change his ways, or save anyone else from his harassment - just to prevent him from getting ahead of her.
Posted by: Conan the Grammarian at November 25, 2014 8:20 AM
Yep. Dirty, underhanded, sneaky, passive aggressive.
Isab at November 25, 2014 8:23 AM
Having grown up on LI, I don't mind the guy or gal at store, the pizza shop or diner calling me hon or sweetheart or dear. The intention is to be warm and friendly to the customer. I missed it when I moved away for a while. Almost always the stores who treat their customers like that will be the ones to go the extra mile like having someone help you load your car, or lend an umbrella because it started raining during dinner.
Makes me sad that is going away.
Catherine at November 25, 2014 8:57 AM
The word "wrong" implies a moral or ethical failing. There is nothing immoral, or unethical in using such terms of endearment. If a woman finds such pet names aesthetically undesirable, or it irks her for whatever reason, she can simply say so. Most men will respect her and refrain from repetition, esp. if she was of reasonable demeanor when doing so. However, I do regard using such terms as unprofessional. As such, I believe they should be avoided in the workplace, and in reference to those one works with. But, again, that's not a question of morality. Its just a belief that professional and personal relationships have differing proprieties.
David at November 25, 2014 1:48 PM
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