Indiana Pizzeria: Gays Okay; Gay Weddings Not Okay; And Why This Gay-Rights-Promoting Atheist Says That Should Fly
I'm a gay rights- (including gay marriage)-supporting atheist libertarian -- not exactly a fundamentalist Christian. In fact, I find the evidence-free belief in god and all the trimmings silly and childish. I also find it, uh, interesting, how people go all pick and choosie with their scriptures, like in how nobody Christian is stoning the neighbors for adultery or because they're wearing a mix of fabrics.
However, I'm also for freedom of religion and for the freedom of people with non-essential businesses (not hospitals, for example) to serve whomever they want and to refuse to served whomever they want. (This decision should be their right, and my thinking on this goes far beyond religion -- like if you don't like redheads who are writers or if you find this redheaded writer deplorable or just bothersome for some reason.)
James Queally writes in the LA Times of the story about Indiana pizzeria owners who refused to cater a gay wedding:
Kevin O'Connor, who owns Memories Pizzeria in Walkerton, Ind., with his two children, spoke with the Los Angeles Times on Wednesday, shortly after his daughter's comments to a local television reporter went viral and made his restaurant the latest battleground in the national dispute over Indiana's Religious Freedom Restoration Act.Critics have blasted the legislation, calling it an invitation for business owners in the conservative state to discriminate against gays and lesbians.
Although he supports the legislation, O'Connor told The Times he did not make a public decree that he would not serve same-sex couples, nor did anyone ask him that question.
But in the television interview, which led thousands to attack his business on Facebook and on Yelp, his daughter Crystal said she would flat-out refuse service to a gay couple who asked to have their wedding catered.
"We service anyone. I don't care who it is. I don't care if they're covered with tattoos, I don't care if they got rings in their ears. I don't care if they're gay. The only thing I said was I cannot condone gay marriage," O'Connor, 61, told The Times. He said he believes his decision not to cater same-sex weddings is simply an expression of his religious beliefs.
"If they want to come in the store, that's their privilege, they can do that. But I can't condone gay marriage, that's against my belief," he added.
I sure wouldn't patronize his pizzeria but, again, I believe it's absolutely his right to decide who he will and will not serve based on his religious beliefs or any other beliefs.
BHouston884 writes in the LA Times comments:
The problem is catering a wedding becomes a highly personal affair, they become part of it, and they should not, under any circumstances be required to do it. period.
And PS, the owner's a nitwit. Alyssa Marino writes at local Indiana station ABC57:
That lifestyle is something they choose. I choose to be heterosexual. They choose to be homosexual. Why should I be beat over the head to go along with something they choose?" says Kevin O'Connor.
I didn't choose to be hetero any more than he did. And it's exceptionally idiotic and backward to believe people "choose" to be gay. Until very recently, many, many people who have been gay have lived lives of misery or been slaughtered for it. And in Islamic countries, they still are slaughtered for it. (Yeah, woohoo, whoopie, let's be gay and get hanged or beheaded!)
Idiocy.
But again, idiocy he is entitled to.
And the reality is, as I heard about Arkansas's Republican governor, whose son signed a petition against a similar bill in his state, younger Republicans are not opposed to gay marriage to the degree their parents are and have been. Not anywhere close to that.
More here about the Religious Freedom Restoration Act -- the one signed by Bill Clinton and the ones that followed, passed by states.
Nope, you were not for real. You believe in gay marriage or you don't.
You don't.
There's nothing special about a doctor or and landlord as compared to a photographer or a baker... There's no reason the doctor should have his choices limited more than those other people. There's nothing about his talents and hard work which should put him at the mercy of your petty impulses and personal judgments.
"Essential" is bullshit. (And it's a weird impulse to insist that the brightest people carry burdens that more playful functionaries can disregard.)
Amy, you're just not into gay marriage. I don't know why you had to argue about it all those years....
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at April 1, 2015 9:45 PM
Thanks so much for telling me what I believe. Here, I'll help you:
I BELIEVE IN GAY MARRIAGE.
And to explain why, I'll borrow from you above, "There's no reason the gay person should have his rights limited more than those other people."
And no, I don't think a doctor "should" have his or her rights limited but I also don't think we should start turning away, oh, people named Crid (or anybody) at the hospital doors. It's unfortunate, but it's a little different from a pizzeria.
Amy Alkon at April 1, 2015 9:52 PM
> And no, I don't think a doctor
> "should" have his or her rights
> limited but
Well now, you mean it or you don't.
You don't. And the wording is awfully darn inclusive:
> I also don't think we…
When people nowadays say "we," they mean government power.
I can neither cook a pizza fit for a wedding nor stitch a wound, so I guess my freedom is thusly protected... But only for the moment.
Who knows how the "essential" whims will fall on the morrow?
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at April 1, 2015 10:30 PM
So crid, say you own a store and the guy who tortured your family to death walks in. Should you have the right to refuse him service?
Government, companies operating under government protected monopolies like utilities, and things like pharmacies and hospitals shouldnt be allowed to withhold services.
Everyone else should be free to be as discriminatory as they want.
lujlp at April 1, 2015 10:47 PM
Freedom of association in action. Memories Pizza decided they didn't want to cater to gay weddings. (Who the heck orders pizza for a wedding reception?) And people who didn't like their views decided they didn't want to associate with Memories Pizza.
All is working as intended. Situation normal.
Patrick at April 2, 2015 12:21 AM
I get what you're saying.
Let's say it's about klansmen, not gays, and a klansmen comes into Nicole's Vegan Bakery to
1) buy a lovely cupcake on his way to work
2) buy a dozen cupcakes for the local klan rally
3) buy a custom birthday cake that says "happy birthday dave"
4) buy a custom rally cake that says "(insert ethnic slur) Move Out of Town"
5)buy a custom cake that says "Be a Vegetarian Like Our Glorious Fuhrer"
Do you see a difference in these scenarios?
In #1 and #3, he's just buying an innocuous cake
in #2, he's buying it for a xause I don't like but it is a basic product my imaginary bakery sells.
In #4 and #5, if I make the cake,I'm writing messages I find offensive. It's speech I dont believe in. In fact, #5 actively hurts me because it associates me with something I and society find repugnant.
I don't think people should be forced to write messages they find repugnant. I think they should be within their rights to say "You can have a cake but I won't write xyz on it or draw a picture of m, n or o".
NicoleK at April 2, 2015 12:24 AM
I have read both Jonathan Turley and Eugene Volokh on gay wedding cakes and gay wedding photographers.
http://jonathanturley.org/2015/04/01/cake-wars-is-the-indiana-rfra-coverage-skirting-the-difficult-questions-of-conflict-between-anti-discrimination-law-and-free-exercise/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/01/23/no-bakeries-dont-have-to-take-orders-for-cakes-that-say-god-hates-gays/
But what I haven't found is a gay couple that actually wants a wedding catered with pizza. I'm not sure the gay wedding pizza boycott is an actual problem, but if they are serving thin crust, well don't bother inviting me.
jerry at April 2, 2015 12:41 AM
> Do you see a difference
> in these scenarios?
Arriveste! Pretender! Thief!
*I* am the author of the original Five Cake Quiz™.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at April 2, 2015 2:15 AM
Let's try that again...
*I* am the author of the original Five Cake Quiz™.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at April 2, 2015 2:21 AM
...the guy who tortured your family to death walks in.
Wait, is he an atheist?? Because Phil Robertson says that would be okay, because.
And lost in all this banter is the GoFundMe started to "relieve the financial loss endured by the proprietors’ stand for faith." Which is up to $50000+ now, btw.
Stupid people should give me money too, for my stands on faith, or whatever. Just give me money. I'm oppressed. Seriously! Or discriminated against, something. Please help.
DrCos at April 2, 2015 3:48 AM
Oh, and Crid...
Are these delicious chocolate cakes, with chocolate icing? These little details are important, y'know.
drcos at April 2, 2015 3:49 AM
Well, that was quick. It seems that Memories Pizza is naught but a memory now. It closed its doors in less than a day.
Patrick at April 2, 2015 5:10 AM
"you mean it or you don't"
Crid, the world is not black and white.
It is perfectly possible to fully support two great ideas, right up until they bump into each other. When they do, you get one of those real-world situations where you have to compromise your ideals, because there is no simple answer.
In this case, on the one side we have freedom of association. The government should not force you to keep company that you, personally, abhor. It doesn't matter who you are or why you abhor someone, it should be your choice who you keep company with.
An on the other side, we want an inclusive, non-discriminatory society. You should not be arbitrarily put at a disadvantage due to your gender, skin color.
Those two ideals are destined to conflict. And when they do, there are no simple answers. One group of people support freedom of association (but would be seriously put out if they were the ones discriminated against). Another group, the SJWs, supports inclusiveness (but want nothing to do with the first group).
Each side seems hypocritical to the other, but only because they are drawing the line between competing ideals in different places.
a_random_guy at April 2, 2015 5:13 AM
If I were planning a wedding, at the top of my list of qualities I'd like in a vendor I'd put "Is resentful for being legally forced to participate." It just ensures the highest quality service, don't you think?
Dwatney at April 2, 2015 5:25 AM
On a side note, I'm with Ben Sheffner:
@bensheffner
@amyalkon I wanna know when it became OK to serve pizza at gay weddings.
Amy Alkon at April 2, 2015 5:34 AM
a_random_guy: Crid, the world is not black and white.
Crid has yet to attain the emotional maturity to understand that fact.
In his world, if you support gay marriage, you have to support antidiscrimination laws to protect gays.
And babies need one mother and one father. No other parenting combination is acceptable. You could point out that children of gay or lesbian couples do just as well, are just as happy and successful as their counterparts raised in heterosexual unions. He'll counter indignantly that the children are not being judged, and how dare you subject innocent children to your judgmental glare. Which might sound like a legitimate complaint, until you realize that we're discussing parents. Children are the only yardstick available to judge the effectiveness of parenting.
I've been posting with Crid since the inception of this blog. Crid shows no sign of maturing but we all remain cheerfully optimistic.
Patrick at April 2, 2015 5:41 AM
The laws being discussed only set up the conditions under which a disagreement between two parties can proceed in a court of law. Right?
So, I guess the real issue is that LGBT's do not want a court system to
ponder/consider/debate/discuss
someone disagreeing with their cupcake buying decisions.
WOW! I thought Western Civilization as we know it was about to end.
Bob in Texas at April 2, 2015 5:48 AM
In his world, if you support gay marriage, you have to support antidiscrimination laws to protect gays.
I support discrimination against ME, if that is what a pizzeria chooses to do. It should be your right to "discriminate" -- to decide who you serve -- if you are not serving emergency medical services, etc.
I will not patronize your business if you discriminate like this. And I will likely be one of thousands on Yelp giving you one star for your discrimination. That's the right way for this to work -- and it has worked that way. The state should not be forcing you to do business with someone you do not wish to do business with -- FOR ANY REASON: because they have red hair, because they don't believe in god, because they drive a stupid car, because they are gay or Jewish or black or Chinese.
Let me just emphasize: I find that sort of discrimination disgusting. But I am a civil libertarian and support freedom, including the freedom of association and the freedom to choose who your business serves if people will not die or, say, run out of gas on the side of the road because you refuse to serve them.
Does that suck for bigoted gas station owners? Sure. Sorry.
Amy Alkon at April 2, 2015 5:49 AM
Legally, this is a good analogy to the whole same sex marriage debate.
There is no way to separate the rights of two people to form a same sex marriage from the rights of three or more to form a plural marriage, with, of course, plural marriage having the more established historical and social precedent.
Legally there is no difference between forcing a Christian owned cake shop to cater a gay wedding, and forcing a Black owned business to cater a KKK rally.
I would like the return to the days where your civil rights required a government actor, and maybe the courts will be willing to walk some of this back.
The real life fallout from these kinds of mandates will be that no one will ever deny you a booking to cater your special event. They will just find a socially acceptable excuse to back out, often at the last minute, when the cake delivery truck breaks down unexpectedly.
This will encourage a social double speak where you get a non denial denial when someone does not want to do business with you, further weakening the social fabric we live under
Isab at April 2, 2015 5:52 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2015/04/02/indiana_pizzeri.html#comment-5941469">comment from Amy AlkonLaw prof Turley:
http://jonathanturley.org/2015/04/01/cake-wars-is-the-indiana-rfra-coverage-skirting-the-difficult-questions-of-conflict-between-anti-discrimination-law-and-free-exercise/#more-89300
Amy Alkon at April 2, 2015 5:53 AM
Amy, I'm going to differ on one particular.
The Yelp "reviews". People who have never patronized the pizza place, will never be NEAR the pizza place, etc, have decided to attack it in Yelp Reviews.
This is "astroturfing" of the worst sort. So now, the parlor has closed, at least temporarily, and likely for good.
And while it was family-owned, I'm sure it had non-family employees. Who now have at least temporarily become unemployed due to thousands of people around the world indulging their self-righteousness to the point where the owner felt threatened enough to close the shop for now. . . .
Keith Glass at April 2, 2015 5:56 AM
Go Fund Me has raised a bit of money to support Memories Pizza.
Patrick at April 2, 2015 6:03 AM
Memories Pizza in Walkerton, IN closing its doors probably had less to do with want of business, than due to death threats.
Sigh. Ladies and gentlemen, that is sooooo not how to do things. That's not the market in action. It's a mob.
Patrick at April 2, 2015 6:10 AM
One would do well to look up Publc Law 103-141 at the Library of Congress.
I suspect claiming that Bill Clinton signed something just doesn't mean much.
Radwaste at April 2, 2015 7:15 AM
I've got half a mind to become a Muslim and begin affirmatively pushing for Sharia. At least I know the progressives won't f*** around with me then.
I R A Darth Aggie at April 2, 2015 7:17 AM
Yelp is pretty much worthless. If your business patronizes them, they'll make sure your not-so-stellar reviews drift downward in the search results.
If not, they drift upward.
And as you note, it is also subject to external forces that can manipulate results (either pro or con) in a illegitimate manner.
I R A Darth Aggie at April 2, 2015 7:20 AM
Maybe some social justice worrier might want to try these bigots on for size?
I R A Darth Aggie at April 2, 2015 7:24 AM
A majority of the pro-gay marriage group, with the best of intentions and with their hearts in the right place, have become bullies.
Nick at April 2, 2015 7:25 AM
"Maybe some social justice worrier might want to try these bigots on for size?"
Ah, that's good. We need to get some gay couple to demand service there. Then sit back with popcorn and watch SJW heads explode.
a_random_guy at April 2, 2015 7:50 AM
I have this fantasy where I call in and order 15 pizzas for midnight delivery from Memories Pizza at a gay wedding reception (pizza places in the midwest do BIG business on impromptu late-night deliveries to wedding receptions). Then the delivery person arrives and has to decide if they're going to give us the pizzas and take our money (and generous tip), or let the company eat the costs of preparing and delivering 15 pizzas.
sofar at April 2, 2015 7:56 AM
OMG
I mustve read that post way back when and it obviously convinced me... Crid is taking over my brrrraaaaaaaaaaainnnnnn
But the point is there's a difference between selling a regular cake to someone you disagree with, and custom making one celebrating a message you hate.
If it were up to me, I'd make the law that you have to serve everyone, but you dont have to write or print things you dont want to.
So the problem could be solved by the gay people buying a cake and writing "Congratulations Sue and Suzie" on it themselves.
NicoleK at April 2, 2015 8:10 AM
"I have this fantasy where I call in and order 15 pizzas for midnight delivery from Memories Pizza at a gay wedding reception (pizza places in the midwest do BIG business on impromptu late-night deliveries to wedding receptions). Then the delivery person arrives and has to decide if they're going to give us the pizzas and take our money (and generous tip), or let the company eat the costs of preparing and delivering 15 pizzas."
And others want to make their fantasies into law, caring, as you do, not a whit about those damned business owners, who are not entitled to anything the State doesn't sanction.
There you go.
Radwaste at April 2, 2015 8:32 AM
Isab: Legally there is no difference between forcing a Christian owned cake shop to cater a gay wedding, and forcing a Black owned business to cater a KKK rally.
At least not according to Federal Law. In some states, gays are a protected class, like blacks. Klansman are not a protected class, and I don't see that changing in the near future.
A plural marriage is antithetical to the idea of a democracy, as the Supreme Court reasoned when it upheld the ban on plural marriages in Reynolds v. United States.
Patrick at April 2, 2015 8:35 AM
"Legally there is no difference between forcing a Christian owned cake shop to cater a gay wedding, and forcing a Black owned business to cater a KKK rally. "
Of course, that consequence was unintended... In order to remedy a situation where some people had more rights than others, we set up a system where some people have more rights than others. No one should be surprised that this hasn't worked out very well.
And, as Isab said, the way this works out is: "Oh, you are having a gay wedding? That's great? We totally support gay rights. Unfortunately, we are already booked solid that day. We'll let you know if there's an opening, 'kay, bye."
Cousin Dave at April 2, 2015 8:36 AM
The legally required double speak is already a big part of business. The few times I've been asked for a reference and responded 'I can't comment' the person did not get the job. And even a nominally positive reference can be quite negative.
Ben at April 2, 2015 9:17 AM
And others want to make their fantasies into law, caring, as you do, not a whit about those damned business owners, who are not entitled to anything the State doesn't sanction.
Either I'm reading your post wrong, or you read mine wrong. When you write "As you do," are you insinuating I "care not a wit" about the business owners?
All I'm doing is ordering some delicious pizza for my hungry guests. The business can decide whether it wants my money, or stand by its principals. They may turn me down, but nothing stops me from ordering pizza from them.
sofar at April 2, 2015 10:23 AM
Animals have threatened the lives and family of a tiny pizzeria that never denied services to anyone, ending their livelihood. Patrick, the nine-year-old, is delighted; he's a feral savage.
> Are these delicious chocolate
> cakes, with chocolate icing?
Yes… Yes they are. And they're magnificent, all five of them. Choc/choc. And delicious, yes. They're fabulous. Good question.
> Crid is taking over my
> brrrraaaaaaaaaaainnnnnn
This is a thing that happens. The moment of transition can be a confusing time for some people... They find themselves experiencing unusual feelings, with responses from their own bodies that are new and overwhelming... They notice that others are watching them more carefully, sometimes staring, even in mundane moments... And that can be intimidating.
For now, the important thing is just to keep living your life through the usual patterns. Don't let this new, deeper condition of awareness engender emotions of shame or regret. Just orient yourself to your environment with your new insights as best you can, and wait patiently for instructions.
We'll be in touch.
> the world is not black
> and white.
Yes… Yes it is. I'd say the world is black and white. I'd say the beating heart of modern decency is the insight that no man is above the law. Places where people deny this are in darkness. And places where people understand it, whatever their temptations, thrive in the daylight of trust and progress.
But I think it would be really cute if you went around to typical American men who you saw on the street and at social events and started explaining to them, in front of their wives, that there were contexts where you regarded their union as unreal, and their various vows & responsibilities to each other as inapplicable.
And if they got angry with you, you could explain to them that the world is not black and white. I think that would be really cute.
And then you could explain it to their kids.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at April 2, 2015 10:32 AM
... regarding my previous post in response to Radwaste:
I meant to write *whit
and *principles
The coffee weaning process is painful.
sofar at April 2, 2015 10:37 AM
Once again, Amy is 100% right on Target. She's one gay-supporting atheist that self-described Christian would be happy to make pizza for.
And even though I've tangled with lujlp and Patrick here in the past, gotta say, their comments above in this thread are right on target. Good work, guys. :-)
qdpsteve at April 2, 2015 10:42 AM
(Oops, wish I could go back and edit a bit. Apparently "right on target" is qdpsteve's 'phrase that pays' today...)
;-)
qdpsteve at April 2, 2015 10:43 AM
We wish you could "go back and edit a bit," too.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at April 2, 2015 10:46 AM
Aaaarrrgh. Let me start over. (Amy, you can delete my 10:42 and 10:43 if you want.)
Once again, Amy is 100% CORRECT. She's one gay-supporting atheist that THIS self-described Christian would be happy to make pizza for.
And even though I've tangled with lujlp and Patrick here in the past, I've gotta say their comments above on this thread are... yeah, you guessed it... right on target. :-) Good work, guys.
qdpsteve at April 2, 2015 10:46 AM
Wouldn't you hate to HAVE to cater an afternoon endeavor with deese guys:
westboro baptist church
http://www.godhatesfags.com/?COLLCC=1584995349&
Maybe an exception could be written in?
Bob in Texas at April 2, 2015 11:05 AM
I want pizza.
NicoleK at April 2, 2015 11:19 AM
Hmm, after reading down the comments, a thought struck me (and it hurt like hell):
If a potential customer chooses one pizzeria over another, based on the lifestyles of the owners, is the customer guilty of discrimination too?
I wonder if anybody's ever made that argument. Probably.
Old RPM Daddy (OldRPMDaddy at GMail dot com) at April 2, 2015 11:48 AM
Crid: Animals have threatened the lives and family of a tiny pizzeria that never denied services to anyone, ending their livelihood. Patrick, the nine-year-old, is delighted; he's a feral savage.
Actually, Crid, I've already commented on this and said that threatening the family who owns the business is "not the way to do this" and called them a "mob."
So, bite me.
Patrick at April 2, 2015 12:07 PM
The pizzeria was never actually asked to cater a wedding:
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2015/04/01/indiana-pizza-shop-gets-set-up-by-local-reporter-instantaneous-national-moonbattery-ensues/
Snoopy at April 2, 2015 2:19 PM
Patrick,
Have you actually looked at Reynolds v. United States? Under that logic same sex marriage is antithetical to the idea of a democracy.
Ben at April 2, 2015 2:34 PM
I tucked a picture of Jesus under my arm and tried to get it matted at a Muslim frame shop. They forced their religion down my throat by refusing to do it! Said he was one of their prophets and no pix allowed!
Then I went to a kosher deli and ordered a beef and cheese sandwich. Again I was refused service! They had beef, they had cheese, but it was against their religion to eat them together, or to profit off of me eating them together!
I'm suing.
Kathleen at April 2, 2015 3:21 PM
The Goddess writes: I support discrimination against ME, if that is what a pizzeria chooses to do. It should be your right to "discriminate" -- to decide who you serve -- if you are not serving emergency medical services, etc.
Lost in all this discussion is the fact that businesses in Indiana already have that right. Gays are not protected class in Indiana.
Patrick at April 2, 2015 4:05 PM
> Actually,…
Nope, offhand descriptions of reality are not what a nine-year-old's life is about.
> I've already commented
Nor are your defensive whinings the oracular thunderbolts of clarity you imagine them to be. We don't catalog them or await updates, no more for this than for reviews of comic books and Sunday-morning cartoons.
> "not the way to do this"
You presume there's a this to do, and that your guidance will be helpful.
Nope, little feller. No. The totality of your commentary —merely on this topic, and certainly on everything over the years— has left no doubt where you stand. You ARE the mob, and no smirking ass-coverage after bad events is exculpatory.
But don't worry: Most Obama-era voters carry themselves as defenseless children as well, so there'll be plenty of playmates. In Hell.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at April 2, 2015 4:46 PM
(Kathleen, fwiw, it's my experience you won't find an actual kosher deli that carries both milk and meat at the same time. Those are pretty rare birds.)
jerry at April 2, 2015 5:33 PM
There is a "this" to be done, Cridzilla. If you don't like a particular business's policy, you simply boycott that business and encourage those like-minded individuals to do the same.
But you don't force them to close their doors with death threats.
Patrick at April 2, 2015 7:14 PM
"If they want to come in the store, that's their privilege, they can do that. But I can't condone gay marriage, that's against my belief," he added.
If "they" were a same-sex couple who were married, I wonder if he'd accept them in his pizzeria? If he did, if he accepted them being married, wouldn't this be another way of condoning same-sex marriage?
Also, even if they weren't married, if they appear to be a couple, then they're probably having sex so O'Connor should refuse them service on that basis. After all, the Old Testament in his holy book decrees "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death." If the God that O'Connor believes in says that guys fucking each other (God is, apparently, cool with women fucking each other; he probably has a big ol' stash of lesbian porn) should be put to death then surely he would not condone them sharing slices in a pizzeria owned by a good Christian.
JD at April 2, 2015 7:43 PM
"There is a "this" to be done, Cridzilla. If you don't like a particular business's policy, you simply boycott that business and encourage those like-minded individuals to do the same."
OR you could just go find a business that doesn't offend your precious sensibilities and leave the others be. Not real hard to do in 2015. But of course, Patrick, you are a tool like all those other tools so fuck with the Mom and Pop pizza shop.
causticf at April 2, 2015 7:43 PM
...luj - way to nail it.
Now to read Reynolds v United States:
"... In the face of all this evidence, it is impossible to believe that the constitutional guaranty of religious freedom was intended to prohibit legislation in respect to this most important feature of social life. Marriage, while from its very nature a sacred obligation, is nevertheless, in most civilized nations, a civil contract, and usually regulated by law. Upon it society may be said to be built, and out of its fruits spring social relations and social obligations and duties, with which government is necessarily required to deal. In fact, according as monogamous or polygamous marriages are allowed, do we find the principles on which the government of [98 U.S. 145, 166] the people, to a greater or less extent, rests. Professor, Lieber says, polygamy leads to the patriarchal principle, and which, when applied to large communities, fetters the people in stationary despotism, while that principle cannot long exist in connection with monogamy. Chancellor Kent observes that this remark is equally striking and profound. 2 Kent, Com. 81, note (e). An exceptional colony of polygamists under an exceptional leadership may sometimes exist for a time without appearing to disturb the social condition of the people who surround it; but there cannot be a doubt that, unless restricted by some form of constitution, it is within the legitimate scope of the power of every civil government to determine whether polygamy or monogamy shall be the law of social life under its dominion."
Thanks guys!
Michelle at April 2, 2015 8:31 PM
I also find it, uh, interesting, how people go all pick and choosie with their scriptures, like in how nobody Christian is stoning the neighbors for adultery or because they're wearing a mix of fabrics.
That's the curious thing, isn't it? You don't see Christian conservatives arguing that adulterers or convicted murderers or thieves shouldn't be allowed to get married yet the God these Christians worship had commandments against adultery, murder and theft but same-sex humping didn't merit a commandment.
JD at April 2, 2015 8:52 PM
were a same-sex couple who were married, I wonder if he'd accept them in his pizzeria? If he did, if he accepted them being married, wouldn't this be another way of condoning same-sex marriage?
JD, just a quick question? How old are you?
If I owned a restaurant, I am sure i would be happy to serve pizza to any number of paying customers, some of which could easily be, pedophiles, serial killers, embezzlers, forgers, burglars, armed robbers, or terrorists.
This is entirely different in both scope and level of involvement from being asked (or being forced) to cater the next meeting of NAMBLA or ISIS.
Isab at April 2, 2015 9:05 PM
> a same-sex couple who were married,
> I wonder if he'd accept them in
> his pizzeria
Yeah. Being compelled to participate in someone else's religious ceremony is a level of intrusion unfathomable to many, including those who imagine themselves most attuned to human hearts.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at April 3, 2015 12:07 AM
Isab: were a same-sex couple who were married, I wonder if he'd accept them in his pizzeria? If he did, if he accepted them being married, wouldn't this be another way of condoning same-sex marriage?
Isab, I believe he said that he would serve anyone, including gay people, in his shop. Catering to a same-sex wedding is where he would draw the line.
From Amy's original post:
If he's consistent with that, then I guess he would serve a gay married couple in his shop.
Patrick at April 3, 2015 1:50 AM
causticf: OR you could just go find a business that doesn't offend your precious sensibilities and leave the others be. Not real hard to do in 2015. But of course, Patrick, you are a tool like all those other tools so fuck with the Mom and Pop pizza shop.
Not that this could happen, but suppose they refused to serve blacks or Asians? Would you be willing to just leave them be and not fuck with the Mom and Pop pizza shop?
We all pick our causes, dickface. I'm not bound to please you with my choices.
Patrick at April 3, 2015 2:56 AM
...cater the next meeting of NAMBLA
What do you have against the National Association of Marlon Brando Look-Alikes?
...nobody started me a GoFundMe? (Amy, I would have kicked some back your way!)
DrCos at April 3, 2015 3:21 AM
"isab: were a same-sex couple who were married, I wonder if he'd accept them in his pizzeria? If he did, if he accepted them being married, wouldn't this be another way of condoning same-sex marriage?"
These were not my words. This was a sophomoric quote from JD that I failed to get the quotation marks around.
I know this restaurant owner says he serves everyone, as he should.
It was JD that turned it into a 6th grade rant about serving people you disagree with in a commercial establishment being exactly the same as catering their wedding (and endorsing their lifestyle)
I have more respect everyday for the restaurant owner who had the balls to throw OJ Simpson and party out on their asses because he didn't want to do business with an unconvicted murderer .
Isab at April 3, 2015 6:01 AM
Serving someone a pizza in your restaurant and catering their wedding require two different levels of involvement.
Same with selling someone flowers at your shop and providing flowers (is there a verb for that?) for their religious rite. Or providing photographer services.
One does not involve you in their worldview or religion. The other does. One does not involve your tacit acceptance of a lifestyle or practice that you find objectionable. The other does.
The Memories Pizza owner drew that distinction.
Can a Methodist be forced to cater a Catholic wedding full of, gasp, papists?
Can a devout Muslim photographer be forced to enter a Catholic Church (with its crucifixion iconography) and photograph a Catholic wedding, acknowledging by default that it's a religious ceremony?
Can a deeply religious baker be forced to acknowledge that a civil marriage is equal to a religious rite - even if in the civil ceremony the couple is not to be married "in the eyes of God" and would technically be living in sin?
Silly questions? Yes. But real enough to the people who hold those beliefs.
Would the caterer, baker, and photographer in the above examples be limiting their business opportunities? Yes. Word gets around. Happy customers breed more business. Unhappy rejected customers don't.
However, in their zeal to make every single person in America accept gay marriage, these activists are going too far.
Sometimes you just gotta deal with the fact that not everyone likes you and accepts you. As long as they're not threatening your life, livelihood, and free exercise of your rights, leave it be.
Conan the Grammarian at April 3, 2015 10:01 AM
"We all pick our causes, dickface. I'm not bound to please you with my choices."
Yep. Nine.
Radwaste at April 3, 2015 12:08 PM
The owner didn't specifically say that he'd serve married gays & lesbian in his pizzeria. What he said was "If they want to come in the store, that's their privilege, they can do that."
He said "they." "They" could mean all gays and lesbians or it could mean only gays and lesbians who aren't married.
If he, in fact, would serve married gays and lesbians then he can accept them being married. He just can't accept them getting married.
JD at April 3, 2015 12:26 PM
Oh well, at least this Indiana pizzeria is better than Ahmed's Pizza Mecca in Tehran where gays and lesbians get a complimentary stoning with every order of two large pies.
JD at April 3, 2015 12:31 PM
You can pick your cause and advocate for them all you want. You have that freedom in this country.
But if you want implement laws and regulations that requiring that everyone in the country sacrifice their rights to your cause, you're gonna face some resistance.
And, no matter the nobility of your cause, some of that resistance will be justified because your cause conflicts with other causes that are equally noble and held just as dear by their proponents.
Conan the Grammarian at April 3, 2015 1:20 PM
The owner didn't specifically say that he'd serve married gays & lesbian in his pizzeria. What he said was "If they want to come in the store, that's their privilege, they can do that."
He said "they." "They" could mean all gays and lesbians or it could mean only gays and lesbians who aren't married.
If he, in fact, would serve married gays and lesbians then he can accept them being married. He just can't accept them getting married.
Posted by: JD at April 3, 2015 12:26 PM
He is neither accepting, or endorsing *anything* by serving everyone who comes into his store with money, whatever their personal sexual proclivities might be,
Some people have principles JD, that include not doing business or associating with people who do not share their values.
When I was a kid, there were a number of families that would not let their children play with kids outside of their own church.
This is one of the fundamental freedoms in the US, no forced associations outside of public services.
On the high school debate team sweetie? Because this sophomoric analysis misses the point, again, by a mile.
Isab at April 3, 2015 1:51 PM
Conan:
I don't want to implement laws. What I think should be done, as I said in my reply to causticf, is to simply boycott those businesses who hold values that I despise, and encourage like-minded people to do the same. Let the free market do the rest, for good or ill.
There's no shortage of pizzarias that will serve gay clients, who the hell ever heard of pizza served at a wedding reception?
Patrick at April 3, 2015 3:31 PM
DrCos: What do you have against the National Association of Marlon Brando Look-Alikes?
That is one old episode of South Park.
Patrick at April 3, 2015 3:33 PM
Sorry about the misattributed quote to you, Isab.
One of the points that gets lost in your discussion with JD, is how do you tell if someone is a gay married couple when they come into the store, anyway? Two guys come in with wedding rings and sit together. Are they a gay married couple or two guys who went out for some pizza and left their wives at home?
Unless someone's overly flamboyant (and even then, they might not be gay), there's no way of knowing for sure, unless you ask.
Patrick at April 3, 2015 3:38 PM
Sorry about the misattributed quote to you, Isab.
One of the points that gets lost in your discussion with JD, is how do you tell if someone is a gay married couple when they come into the store, anyway? Two guys come in with wedding rings and sit together. Are they a gay married couple or two guys who went out for some pizza and left their wives at home?
Unless someone's overly flamboyant (and even then, they might not be gay), there's no way of knowing for sure, unless you ask.
Posted by: Patrick at April 3, 2015 3:38 PM
The point is, as a store owner, you don't care.
The reason that gay people are not included as a protected or suspect class under Federal law, is because you can't tell by looking at them.
Therefore, there is no need to protect them from bias.
Unless you are violating accepted norms of behavior, no one generally knows or cares whether Bill is your roommate or your lover, your spouse or your SO.
The Pizza guy doesn't want to cater same sex weddings, and on the same grounds, I am betting he probably doesn't want to cater the Indiana State democratic convention because of the abortion rights platform.
Isab at April 3, 2015 5:05 PM
Isab: The reason that gay people are not included as a protected or suspect class under Federal law, is because you can't tell by looking at them. Therefore, there is no need to protect them from bias.
Unless you are violating accepted norms of behavior, no one generally knows or cares whether Bill is your roommate or your lover, your spouse or your SO.
The Pizza guy doesn't want to cater same sex weddings, and on the same grounds, I am betting he probably doesn't want to cater the Indiana State democratic convention because of the abortion rights platform.
And no one should force him to. I agree with the reasoning that gays should not be a protected class.
Even if you could tell who's gay, there are enough sympathetic businesses to provide the services you need. I could see suing someone if there was no other place to do business within a reasonable distance.
Whereas in the deep south, in post-Civil War America, black people might well have found themselves without a single place that would serve them, say, to buy food. Therefore, under those circumstances, I could see forced compliance in that situation. But not with gays, not today. 50 years ago, maybe.
Patrick at April 3, 2015 6:29 PM
Whereas in the deep south, in post-Civil War America, black people might well have found themselves without a single place that would serve them, say, to buy food. Therefore, under those circumstances, I could see forced compliance in that situation. But not with gays, not today. 50 years ago, maybe.
Posted by: Patrick at April 3, 2015 6:29 PM
Ironically enough, as I understand it, the federal anti discrimination laws were necessary, not to force businesses into accommodating blacks, which most were perfectly happy to do all along, they were necessary to keep the white customers from boycotting or worse, torching those white owned businesses who violated the social order by serving blacks.
Isab at April 3, 2015 7:44 PM
"And no one should force him to. I agree with the reasoning that gays should not be a protected class.
Even if you could tell who's gay, there are enough sympathetic businesses to provide the services you need."
Exactly my point, Patrick, you fucking tool. You are such a hypocritical piece of garbage.
causticf at April 3, 2015 9:36 PM
So, causticf, how long have you been a homophobe?
Patrick at April 4, 2015 1:24 AM
Isab: The reason that gay people are not included as a protected or suspect class under Federal law, is because you can't tell by looking at them. Therefore, there is no need to protect them from bias.
Religion is a protected class under Federal law (Civil Rights Act of 1964.) National origin is a protected class under Federal law (same.)
Business owners can tell who is religious by looking at them?
Business owners can tell the national origin of a person by looking at them?
(Isab, I know you can do those things because you're omnipotent but I'm talking about average people, the kind who don't have your special gift.)
JD at April 4, 2015 2:43 PM
For as long as I have beat my wife, you fucking tool.
causticf at April 4, 2015 2:44 PM
Me: If he, in fact, would serve married gays and lesbians then he can accept them being married. He just can't accept them getting married.
Isab: He is neither accepting, or endorsing *anything* by serving everyone who comes into his store with money, whatever their personal sexual proclivities might be,
If the owner would, in fact, serve married gays and lesbians in his pizzeria (we still don't know that he would, based on his "they") then, yes, he is not endorsing their marriage (endorse: to publicly or officially say that you support or approve of someone or something), but he is accepting their marriage (one of the definitions of accept: to endure without protest or reaction) so he would be accepting them being married. It's the getting married part that he's rejecting.
JD: 1 Isab: 0
Some people have principles JD, that include not doing business or associating with people who do not share their values.
While, again, we still don't know for a fact that he would serve married gays & lesbians, assuming he would do that, then his principles are flexible: he's willing to do business with married gays and lesbians and associating with them as customers in his pizzeria. The only thing he's not willing to do is play any part in them getting married.
JD: 2 Isab: 0
JD at April 4, 2015 2:50 PM
Patrick: how do you tell if someone is a gay married couple when they come into the store, anyway? Two guys come in with wedding rings and sit together. Are they a gay married couple or two guys who went out for some pizza and left their wives at home?
If they kiss that's a pretty good indication that they might be married. (Of course they could be two married bi guys, or two straight married guys cheating on their wives.) Also, maybe they mention to their waitress "We're so happy, we just got married to each other and wanted to celebrate by having your pizza."
So the waitress goes into the kitchen and tells the owner "Um, Mr. O'Connor, I just thought I should let you know that there are two married homosexual men out there who want to eat pizza in our dining room." and Mr. O'Connor either says:
"Julie, we accept them in our restaurant. I accept their marriage. This doesn't mean that I endorse it, but it does mean that I accept it. I will endure without protest or reaction. So go take their order."
or
"Julie, while I can accept gays and lesbians in our restaurant who are single -- which is what I meant by "they" -- because I can pretend that they have not had icky homosexual sex, I cannot accept homosexuals who are married because they almost surely have had sex and this totally squicks me out. And also this is an affront to the God that I love, fear and worship. God made Adam and Eve, Julie, he didn't make Adam and Steve."
"Adam and Steve...haha, that's so clever, Mr. O'Connor. I've never heard that before. You are not only a fine Christian man, Mr. O'Connor, but you are very witty too."
"Why thank you, Julie. Now go out there and tell those two homosexuals that we can't have their God-affronting ickiness in our God-fearing pizzeria."
JD at April 4, 2015 3:17 PM
JD: If they kiss that's a pretty good indication that they might be married. (Of course they could be two married bi guys, or two straight married guys cheating on their wives.) Also, maybe they mention to their waitress "We're so happy, we just got married to each other and wanted to celebrate by having your pizza."
Or they could belong to a culture in which men do kiss, such as Russian.
But I'm saying if they just come into the pizza shop, how can tell if they're gay or not.
You did raise a good point about religion and national origin. Those are also characteristics that generally can't be discerned by looking at someone (unless they happen to be wearing turbans or the like).
Patrick at April 4, 2015 6:00 PM
Lately, we've been wondering.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at April 4, 2015 8:24 PM
Wrong thread.
But I've enjoyed being right in all of them.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at April 4, 2015 8:27 PM
The thing about the Jim Crow laws that Civil Rights activism helped overturn is that Jim Crow laws institutionalized racism. They mandated discrimination in both public and private arenas; and by mandating discrimination, they imposed upon African-Americans permanent social, political, and economic disadvantages - exactly the sort of thing the Constitution was established to guard against.
Wikipedia provides a nice summary description:
This decision institutionalized a number of economic, educational and social disadvantages. De jure segregation mainly applied to the Southern United States, while Northern segregation was generally de facto — patterns of segregation in housing enforced by covenants, bank lending practices, and job discrimination, including discriminatory union practices....
Jim Crow laws mandated the segregation of public schools, public places and public transportation, and the segregation of restrooms, restaurants and drinking fountains for whites and blacks. The US military was also segregated, as were federal workplaces, initiated in 1913 under President Woodrow Wilson....
Conan the Grammarian at April 5, 2015 1:42 PM
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