About These Campaigns To Yank Women Into Science
A quote from Judith Kleinfeld on Psychology Today on claims of sexism in science and the campaigns to yank women into jobs they don't seem all that interested in being in:
We should not be sending [gifted] women the messages that they are less worthy human beings, less valuable to our civilization, lazy or low in status, if they choose to be teachers rather than mathematicians, journalists rather than physicists, lawyers rather than engineers.
Where's the campaign to bring more men into kindergarten teaching?
Kindergarten teaching is low status and entering it in large numbers would not elevate men.
But when I was in Ed school, men were totally affirmative actioned in
NicoleK at July 2, 2015 11:49 PM
Margaret Mead pointed out that whatever tasks women are doing are considered low status. If basket weaving is done by women in tribe A, it is low status, but if it done by men in tribe B, it is high status.
So moving women around does nothing... the first few women who enter a male dominated field will get accolades, "Wow, look at that woman! How impressive!" but when enough women enter the field it loses its status, as with secretaries for example.
You're right, either the moving around happens both ways or it does nothing and we should focus on honoring people where they are.
NicoleK at July 2, 2015 11:54 PM
What we really need is smart women (and men!) in education. Right now, teachers are in the bottom 20 percent of university students. How can we expect the bottom 20 percent to educate our smartest children?
Suzanne Lucas--Evil HR Lady at July 3, 2015 12:15 AM
We should not be sending [gifted] women the messages that they are less worthy human beings, less valuable to our civilization, lazy or low in status, if they choose to be . . . lawyers rather than engineers.
Far as I'm concerned, they're less valuable to our civilization if they choose to be lawyers rather than trash collectors. And that goes for men too.
Rex Little at July 3, 2015 12:24 AM
Rex, The only problem is that like plumbers when you need a lawyer you really NEED a lawyer.
Bob in Texas at July 3, 2015 3:11 AM
Kindergarten teaching is low status and entering it in large numbers would not elevate men.
But when I was in Ed school, men were totally affirmative actioned in
Sorry, that's not in any way represented in the number of kindergarten teachers.
And who cares whether men want to be kindergarten teachers. We must have equal numbers or...sexism!
Oh, and never mind how men are often assumed to be sex predators simply because they're men. Guys, if your life is ruined by some baseless accusation, well, that's just too bad!
Amy Alkon at July 3, 2015 5:47 AM
I was very happy when I learned my kid's elementary school had hired its only male teacher a few years back. Finally - a male influence!
He's a good teacher, and fits in well at the school.
But I think it's not a coincidence that he's gay. I think Amy's right - a straight man has too much exposure to being finger-pointed at, by a girl or a mother, as a creeper. He could lose his livelihood in an instant.
A gay may has a similar exposure, of course. Any man could be guilty, right? But my feeling is that a boy won't lie about a gay man abusing him, to "get back at him", the way a girl would. Part of it is homophobia of course. But, also... girls somehow learn the power of accusation very early. Boys just punch you.
flbeachmom at July 3, 2015 6:30 AM
Oh they were still a minority. And they became educational consultants, not kindergarten teachers.
NicoleK at July 3, 2015 7:55 AM
Point taken, Bob, but the plumbers you don't need are not, for the most part, stirring up trouble. Lawyers, however. . .
Rex Little at July 3, 2015 8:06 AM
Nicole: So moving women around does nothing... the first few women who enter a male dominated field will get accolades, "Wow, look at that woman! How impressive!" but when enough women enter the field it loses its status, as with secretaries for example.
If it came to pass that most doctors or lawyers in our society were women, do you believe those professions would then be considered low-status?
JD at July 3, 2015 10:57 AM
They would drop in status and in pay significantly, I am certain of it.
NicoleK at July 3, 2015 12:55 PM
It may already be happening. More women go into pediatrics and the relative pay has fallen as have the salaries of attorneys. Our son is in law school and researched starting salaries in Colorado. He said they are $30,000 per year which would be poverty level when you take student loans into account.
Jen at July 3, 2015 1:14 PM
There is a growing shortage of primary care doctors, mostly because women are taking slots in medical school, and then dropping out of the profession when kids come along -- often permanently.
Jay R at July 4, 2015 10:59 AM
Source Jay R? Sounds like bullshit.
My understand is there is a shortage of primary doctors because it doesn't pay well, insurance has made it a nightmare, liability is through the roof, and the hours are too long for a specialty that isn't respected and people feel is a barrier to docs they actually need.
Ppen at July 4, 2015 1:00 PM
The pay of attorneys has fallen because there are too many attorneys. As of now it's a useless profession unless you are using that degree to do something else. The only people I know that make a lot of money off of it where either at the top of their class in a good school and/or had connections.
Why anyone would get a law degree nowadays is beyond me. Same with English, History, or Psychology. ...
Ppen at July 4, 2015 1:09 PM
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