Hey, Dumb University Leaders: Free Speech Is Not The Same Thing As Sexual Assault
First of all, let me be totally clear that I find a couple of these messages, spray-painted on sheets and hung from an off-campus house, very funny -- "Freshmen daughter drop off" and "Go ahead and drop off mom too":
WRIC.com has the story -- about Old Dominion University and signs hanging "from a private residence."
Yet, here's a school spokestalinist, Ellen Nuefeldt, Vice President of Student Engagement and Enrollment Services:
"Messages like the ones displayed [Friday] by a few students on the balcony of their private residence are not and will not tolerated. The moment University staff became aware of these banners, they worked to have them removed. At ODU, we foster a community of respect and dignity and these messages sickened us. They are not representative of our 3,000 faculty and staff, 25,000 students and our 130,000 alumni..."
Well, why the hell should they be expected to be? You, Ellen, didn't put them out as part of your job. Others put them out as part of their right to free speech.
Also -- thank you -- they amused me.
The President of ODU, John R. Broderick, sent WAVY.com this (dull) statement Saturday night -- one which was sent to all faculty, staff and students. I'll just pull an excerpt:
A young lady I talked to earlier today courageously described the true meaning of the hurt this caused. She thought seriously about going back home.
Women were not allowed in certain colleges -- or certain graduate programs -- for quite some time. And all it takes for this girlie to contemplate packing it in is a couple of signs on sheets hanging from a building?
This fragile flower doesn't seem ready for college -- let alone adult society.
via @CHSommers (who, because she's a little classier than I am, called the signs "a bit loutish")
Luckily there are lots of schools out there to choose from, and if you don't want to drop your money at ODU you can go somewhere else.
But the reason the statement was issued was because the administration knows this, and wants to retain your money.
Frankly, if I saw those signs, yeah, I'd assume the place was not a very serious place.
NicoleK at August 25, 2015 1:53 AM
"Frankly, if I saw those signs, yeah, I'd assume the place was not a very serious place."
So true. A really top notch place like Yale wouldn't have anything like say a "Sex Week."
Oh, wait. . .
Wfjag at August 25, 2015 2:59 AM
It's a frat house. Frat houses are not serious places, they're just a club kids join, and a place to live while at college. There's no reason to take them seriously, or to get all upset at bedsheets hanging off of their railings.
a_random_guy at August 25, 2015 3:24 AM
"a community of respect..."
How about respect for constitutional principles?
Amy Alkon at August 25, 2015 5:18 AM
The good 'ole days (1971 for me).
Watching the girls weekly put on less and less clothing for their college school day.
Finally! Week 3! NO BRA! UNBUTTONED SHIRT!
Yikes! What happened? Did they discover BOYS?
Yup!
Meanwhile, instead of hurrying them along the path to sexual bliss, I was helping a classmate put a kit car body in an above garage apartment 'cause it would make a GREAT bed frame. (We became local heroes for a day.)
Sigh. Boys will be boys.
Bob in Texas at August 25, 2015 5:20 AM
"Luckily there are lots of schools out there to choose from, and if you don't want to drop your money at ODU you can go somewhere else."
Many colleges are squashing free speech and many remove due process from men.
Amy Alkon at August 25, 2015 5:40 AM
I call BS!
Not on you Amy; but, on that college president. I sincerely doubt that he spoke with a "young lady who thought seriously about going home."
More likely he thought to himself "now, what excuse can I make up for demanding them to take down those signs?" So, he thought up this excuse - we might lose students! Thereby costing us money!
And, furthermore, it is private property, off campus - none of his or the college's damn business! He needs to mind his own business which is trying to keep college costs down; not stir up controversy.
charles at August 25, 2015 6:33 AM
These radical-meek girls seem determined to prove that the chauvinists were right all along.
And yeah, "a bit loutish" is a fair assessment. But hey, college boys. For the one on the right, I will give them credit for comedic timing and for being up on current trends. It's not like the girls come to college in a perfect state of maturity either.
Cousin Dave at August 25, 2015 6:49 AM
But Cousin Dave, girls drinking to excess, wearing little or no clothes, walking down alleys as a shortcut are perfectly acceptable 'cause (??) they are WOMEN!
Guys on private property, being crass, gross, and funny are UNACCEPTABLE.
It's so simple.
Bob in Texas at August 25, 2015 6:59 AM
"a community of respect..."
How about respect for constitutional principles?
It is a community of respect my authoratah!
Ben at August 25, 2015 7:03 AM
a bit loutish? Not even... this is an amusing prank kinda like putting up signs in your window that say "Go Nads!"
$5 says that the shrinking flower girls will nonetheless go to a club and grind against some guy this weekend, in a public display of simulated sex... essentially foreplay even if they are actually wearing knickers.
Back in the day, mid 80's, even back then there were plenty o' girls that would give you a little flash of somethin' somethin' if they thought you were cute.
I was thinkin' about all the other old stuff, that amused and tantalized, and was fine at the time.
Y'know Sean Connery just turned 85... and most of his movies would no longer be made.
How about my beloved Holiday Inn? Not only sexist but racist, and would score a thousand problematics.
Or "The Quiet Man" OMG, I CAN'T EVEN!
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Poster_-_Quiet_Man,_The_01.jpg
This is all death of a thousand papercuts, and I can't imagine what it will be like an several generations...
I don't think people will even know how to form relationships.
Since there will be no real rules, rather some kind of nebulous rules that can be used against you on a whim... for that reason, guys will opt out, and girls will boo-hoo 'cuz there are no interesting men left.
SwissArmyD at August 25, 2015 8:40 AM
Just dropped off my daughter this weekend. Where I come from, those idiots wouldn't have had those signs up 10 minutes before someone's dad came up there and cleaned house. And I really, really mean that.
gooseegg at August 25, 2015 9:07 AM
*knickers. Snort. Oh SwAD. I concur with your thoughts. My kid thought it would be hilarious to go pranking her friends by decorating their mailboxes with paper penises. Was funny until obviously some parent thought it wasn't. Sigh.
gooseegg at August 25, 2015 9:19 AM
Maybe it's just a rumor, but colleges with frats/sororities have reportedly become less and less popular over the last 30 years or so - and so more frats are closing down. At any rate, I would never have gone to a college that had them.
And yes, I very much dislike vulgarity of any kind, whether coming from men or women - it would just makes me very depressed and lonely.
lenona at August 25, 2015 9:49 AM
>>"A young lady I talked to earlier today courageously described the true meaning of the hurt this caused. She thought seriously about going back home."
When the "young lady" is not given a name, I automatically disbelieve the statement.
lsomber at August 25, 2015 10:01 AM
"How about my beloved Holiday Inn? Not only sexist but racist, and would score a thousand problematics."
Mel Brooks has recently opined that he would not be able to make The Producers or Blazing Saddles today.
Cousin Dave at August 25, 2015 10:31 AM
It's ok, we can all rest easy now because the university has suspended the fraternity. Hallelujah, those poor girls won't have to suffer any further indignities related to [frat] boys being [frat] boys.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/old-dominion-universitys-sigma-nu-frat-suspended-during-probe-sexually-n415056
sara at August 25, 2015 10:51 AM
Just how DO you "courageously describe the hurt this caused"?
I see some geneticists have asserted that stress can change the genetic makeup of one's descendants. I suppose it won't be too long before failing to salute a sneeze with the appropriate wellness message will be seen as aggression of some sort.
The only thing that calms me about this is the surety that such whiners won't acheive anything, like the invention of some new disease or a doomsday weapon. Those ideas would cause paralysis.
Meanwhile, half the first block on CNN's Web page is fearmongering. People buy their own fear at the first opportunity.
Radwaste at August 25, 2015 10:56 AM
"Where I come from, those idiots wouldn't have had those signs up 10 minutes before someone's dad came up there and cleaned house. And I really, really mean that. "
And this is why I support open carry, to stop self-righteous, violent nonsense like that.
Fathers of daughters are the very worst about this. They have this notion that their little girls are pure and innocent. That notion is pathetic and a little touching, but it needs to die. It is so far out of reality, it just needs to die.
Jim at August 25, 2015 11:13 AM
"... At any rate, I would never have gone to a college that had them."-lenona
Do you EVER leave your house? Do you realize that, just because a university HAS greek organizations, does not mean you have to join one?
Do you realize that most colleges that you've actually heard of have fraternities and sororities?
ahw at August 25, 2015 11:49 AM
Jim: "Fathers of daughters are the very worst about this."
Amen! I had a housemate in college whose girlfriend used to sleep over - no big deal really as we each had our own rooms in the house. And, she was really sweet to boot!
Well, one Saturday afternoon I answered the phone. It was her mother looking for her. I called upstairs and my housemate yelled back "we're kind busy right now, tell whoever it is we will call back."
So, I relayed the message; although I think it was possible that her mother heard him yell. A few minutes later her father called - and boy was he pissed. And he was taking his anger out on me!
Sorry, pops. But, it really shouldn't be a surprise that your 22-year old daughter is having sex with her boyfriend on a Saturday afternoon. And you want to get all up and nasty to someone not involved about it?! WTF!?
Yea, if he had stopped by, instead of calling, I can only imagine what the jerk would have done.
P.S. I did say that she was really sweet. She was very apologetic to me; and rather embarrassed by her father's behavior. She then said that I had her specific permission to simply hang up if it ever happened again; she would deal with him being a jerk later. It seems she was more of an adult than her father.
charles at August 25, 2015 11:56 AM
essentially foreplay even if they are actually wearing knickers
SwissArmyD, I have 100 quatloos that says one or more of those girls...excuse me, special snowflakes goes commando.
I R A Darth Aggie at August 25, 2015 12:54 PM
Charles,
Isn't that where you set the phone to the side, get a book, and every once in a while say 'Go on', 'I see', or 'Please continue' just to see how long he can go.
Ben at August 25, 2015 1:00 PM
The notion of "free speech" applies to criticism of the government. Outside of that meaning, free speech has consequences. And these frat boys may have learned that lesson. Or not.
Amy at August 25, 2015 1:46 PM
The notion of "free speech" applies to criticism of the government. Outside of that meaning, free speech has consequences.
Yes, the consequence being the speech of other private citizens, not the heavy handed punishment of a government funded orginzation
lujlp at August 25, 2015 3:18 PM
To ahw:
Some reliable stats, please? There are about 1,700 private American 4-year colleges.
lenona at August 25, 2015 3:40 PM
What, you can't look that up yourself?
"I'm easy," says Teh Internets, "you can search me!"
Radwaste at August 25, 2015 5:33 PM
Wait, wasn't that a pic from the movie "neighbors"??
Guys, certain ones at least, tend to be awful in groups. I never set foot on frat row at UT, nor dated or hooked up with a frat guy (to my knowledge...) even though I was no shrinking violet and got around plenty in those years. It was my sense of self-preservation, plus just not liking typical frat type behavior.
Big universities are great for finding your niche. I think the real problem is probably in smaller colleges. There's just no insulation between you and people you don't like.
momof4 at August 25, 2015 5:41 PM
It's amazing that, while you correctly recognize that "free speech is not the same thing as sexual assault", you fail to recognize that sexual assault is not the same thing as crass messages written on bed sheets and hung over balconies.
Go take a swim, cool off. There's nothing going on here that warrants your outrage.
Tanner Campbell at August 25, 2015 5:47 PM
and I JUST realized that the title of this post isn't the words of someone else, it's your title of the post and it means exactly what I just said. My bad.
Tanner Campbell at August 25, 2015 5:51 PM
Am I the only woman on this board who finds the sheet signs amusing?
If your special snowflake is so frail, that it is a toss up between college, and a convent, go with the convent, probably less ideologically restrictive, and less anti man.
I guess one of the benefits of having a dad who was a World War II combat survivor, is that my parents knew the difference between life and death, and small potatoes.
Sophomoric humor is the smallest of small potatoes.
Don't know whether most boomers, and gen X ers have that kind of perspective.
Isab at August 25, 2015 7:06 PM
Isab, I also thought it was humorous. Even my 24 year old daughter wasn't offended by it. She thought the boys were pretty lame, but she laughed about it. Unfortunately, we both groaned at the outrage and hand twisting that's happening over this.
Sara at August 25, 2015 9:42 PM
I thought they were funny, are people stupid enough to think that rapists are going to advertise?
crella at August 26, 2015 3:18 AM
ODU is a public university and, as a matter of law, may not infringe on the civil rights of its students.
DrPinWV at August 26, 2015 5:24 AM
momof4 hit the right 'button' (heh heh).
ODU (graduated 1975) is in a Navy town/city. The college was/is(?) tame compared to the city when 'da ships come in.
Norfolk and ODU is big enough to offer whatever entertainment you want and bad enough that in '75 no single cop car would answer a complaint. Usually took 2 w/a canine unit on the way.
It was eye-opening to a white boy from a basically rural area.
Luckily some black guys and some 'Nam tunnel rats took me under their wing and I listened to their brief few words ("Bob, WE don't even drive through that area.")
Bob in Texas at August 26, 2015 6:18 AM
Therapists advertise all the time Crella. And thoserapists just have punctuation problems.
I don't even see anything rapey about the sign. Lame yes, rape no.
Ben at August 26, 2015 6:37 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2015/08/25/hey_dumb_univer.html#comment-6164698">comment from Isab"Am I the only woman on this board who finds the sheet signs amusing? "
See my post. I think they're funny. The two on the right, that is.
Amy Alkon at August 26, 2015 6:57 AM
"The notion of 'free speech' applies to criticism of the government."
That isn't what the First Amendment says.
Cousin Dave at August 26, 2015 7:06 AM
OK, so according to Fraternity Info (from 2011):
"These 397,039 fraternity members belong to 5626 different chapters on some 800 college campuses."
So that's less than half the number of colleges out there.
Maybe I should have just said that when I went to college, it wasn't that hard - even in the 1980s - to find a reasonably well-known one that didn't have frats or sororities. So maybe more and more colleges are deciding (leaving aside the rape problem) that drunkenness, disorderly behavior, racism, and social snobbery in general are simply not worth having such organizations in the first place.
lenona at August 26, 2015 8:53 AM
Lenona: "So maybe more and more colleges are deciding (leaving aside the rape problem) that drunkenness, disorderly behavior, racism, and social snobbery in general are simply not worth having such organizations in the first place."
And what does that statement have to do with frats??
charles at August 26, 2015 10:43 AM
"These 397,039 fraternity members belong to 5626 different chapters on some 800 college campuses."
I suspect that it's very much not a uniform distribution. I just checked, and to take an example, the University of Alabama has 42 active fraternaties for a total enrollment of about 35,000. The University of Alabama-Huntsville, with a total enrollment of about 5700, has two. Obviously there's a big difference in the number per 1000 students. I wonder if the pattern is the same for most states: large state schools have a huge number, while smaller schools have one or two or none. What does this mean? I'm not sure. But it does appear that if one wants to go to a school without Greek life, there are plenty of opportunities.
Cousin Dave at August 26, 2015 11:02 AM
Right next door. Maybe Patrick can provide more depth.
"Bill 59 will permit Muslims to make complaints to the Quebec Human Rights Commission (QHRC) against anyone critiquing Islam or Islamism, triggering lawsuits for hate speech.
' ... Article 6 of Bill 59 would "give the QHRC the power to initiate legal proceedings before the Quebec Human Rights Tribunal without having to wait for complaints from the public."
http://www.meforum.org/5453/canada-bill-59
Bob in Texas at August 26, 2015 11:10 AM
To Charles: You're joking, right? I heard about sororities refusing to admit black members 30 years ago - and those colleges didn't seem to care much.
lenona at August 26, 2015 1:28 PM
"The notion of "free speech" applies to criticism of the government. Outside of that meaning, free speech has consequences. And these frat boys may have learned that lesson. Or not"
ODU is a public school - run by the government of Virginia. so what was that you were saying?
Jim at August 26, 2015 2:43 PM
To Charles: You're joking, right? I heard about sororities refusing to admit black members 30 years ago - and those colleges didn't seem to care much.
Posted by: lenona at August 26, 2015 1:28 PM
Yes, and black Fraternities and Sororities don't admit white members either, but since discrimination only goes one way, I guess that is ok.
Membership is voted on by the existing members, They refuse to admit a lot of people, and their reasons remain private.
A college has no control over whether their students form social organizations or not.
The only control a college has is the funding thing, and whether those social organizations will be sanctioned by the Univeristy or allowed to have their house on the actual Campus.
Took my son to one of those schools with no Greek system for a visit. The primary attraction to us, was that they had no football team.
Lovely little place but my son was turned off by all Kerry signs in the dorm windows....
Isab at August 26, 2015 6:05 PM
Yes, and black Fraternities and Sororities don't admit white members either, but since discrimination only goes one way, I guess that is ok.
_________________________________
I never said any such thing; I was only reporting on what I'd heard way back when, and since there was no mention of black frats or sororities from that particular source, I couldn't very well comment on what was happening in such organizations back then. Not to mention that it's probably safe to say that many a college campus simply doesn't have enough black students to form such organizations in the first place - but the few who ARE there can easily find themselves shunned.
lenona at August 27, 2015 10:41 AM
Incidentally, it's nice to encounter someone else who thinks sports teams have way too much power on college campuses these days; I'm pretty sure my highly academic mother wouldn't have been at all happy had I or my brother become obsessed with playing sports - even in middle school. (She would DEFINITELY have been depressed had I wanted to be a cheerleader - but I have no memory of ever going to a school that had them - and we moved around a lot.)
lenona at August 27, 2015 10:48 AM
I don't know what happened way back when Lenona. But today many black fraternities won't admit non-black members. A white fraternity is racist but a black one is not? Or should we try and parse words to justify bigotry by calling it prejudice instead of racism.
Ben at August 27, 2015 3:11 PM
"I don't even see anything rapey about the sign. Lame yes, rape no"
Me neither, but what else is getting all those folks in a tizzy but the threat those boys supposedly pose to their girls? That seems to be the first place silly peoples' minds go. We had one 'courageous' young lady about to go home after seeing them.
The university said "Broderick said there is no tolerance on campus for sexual assault and harassment. He described the new student government association campaign aimed at preventing sexual assault on campus, with video, online and in-person training throughout the year, including sessions for freshmen this past weekend."
crella at August 27, 2015 3:41 PM
but the few who ARE there can easily find themselves shunned.
Posted by: lenona at August 27, 2015 10:41 AM
Shunning is not the same thing, as not being invited to join a private organization.
If you want to join a black Fraternity, just like of you want to play football, go to a school that offers that amenity.
No one is obligated to provide every thing at every school.
I personally don't find anything wrong with sports. In my opinion, it is a big part of becoming a well rounded person and learning how to function as part of a team.
Division I football, has pretty much turned the mission of the land grant schools on its head.
My least favorite Univeristy in the entire country is CU (Univeristy of Colorado at Boulder). The only school I know of which is both totally Marxist and rabidly pro football. The worst of both extremes.
And I would assume you have no problem with campus Palestinian organizations shunning Jews? (Because unlike your hypothetical there is real evidence for this practice).
Isab at August 27, 2015 4:29 PM
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