Mustachioed Person Who Pees Standing Up Is Miffed That Cab Driver "Misgendered" Him, Calling Him "Sir"
Ben Mack goes around with a bunch of facial hair (at least a mustache and perhaps a beard). He notes that he is able to "pee while standing up" -- and apparently not the way we ladies do it when a toilet looks disgusting (potentially giving ourselves a permanent back injury in the process).
Here's Ben:
Mack writes in the NZ Herald:
Oh, and I'm also non-binary.Huh? So what does that mean, exactly? Some made-up nonsense by a special snowflake who thinks they're unique? Yeah, nah.
Basically, it means that I don't consider myself female or male. I'm simply a human being who prefers the pronouns "they" and "their."
I can't speak for other non-binary people, but the best way I can describe my frustration is a bit like this: have you ever had someone assume you're from somewhere other than where you're actually from? Like, say you're in Europe or America, and everyone assumes you're from Australia instead of New Zealand? It gets pretty annoying after a while, right? Or pretend that you're a cat, and everyone calls you a dog. Now imagine that happening every. Bloody. Day.
That's only a fraction of what it's like to be misgendered.
It's taken a while to build up the courage, but these days I speak up when I'm misgendered a lot more than I used to, even when I'm by myself. I suppose one reason why it's taken so long is the fear of literally getting beaten up. Believe me: far worse sometimes happens to non-binary folks in some of the places I've been.
But I do feel I'm getting more confident. Just the other day, I was in a cab by myself, and the driver began the conversation with "how are you, sir?"
"Please don't call me sir," I said.
"Ok, sir," he replied.
"I'd really prefer you didn't call me sir," I said again. "Just call me Ben, please."
That was the last time I was called "sir" that day.
I'll admit that I don't always correct people when they refer to me with masculine pronouns. Having to explain why having facial hair does not magically mean someone goes by "he" or "him" sometimes just gets too exhausting. Think of it like this: do you ever get tired of people asking you the same question over and over and over again, several times a day? Exactly.
What kind of precious bullshit is this?
There are very few people in the world who are "non-binary" -- and, I'll note, especially in any place where people live hardscrabble lives. It takes an advanced society to start fretting about how people don't wonder whether you -- bearded, man-looking you -- are actually a "their, them," etc.
This is to be expected -- others not considering this. What is not to be expected, and shouldn't be, is for people to do psychological acrobatics, all worried about the six zillion ways they could possibly offend you when they should just be expected to, say, safely and politely get you where you need to go in their cab.
When should offense be taken (by reasonable people)? I explain this in "Good Manners for Nice People Who Sometimes Say F*ck" vis a vis women who have people assume they are pregnant and offer them seats on public transportation. What should count is the giver's intention, which is to be kind and polite -- even if they somehow fail on the points (like by looking at you and making the wrong assumption).
The example I give in the book? A woman I know was just post pregnancy and finally not feeling like a cow. She was riding the subway -- and had a bit of a meltdown when someone offered her seat, screaming that she wasn't pregnant; "I'M JUST FAT!"
Heh heh.
P.S. She's normally sane.
This behavior -- her hollering on the train in response to the stranger's kindness -- is effectively what this guy is doing by expecting some taxi driver to deduce the secret yearnings of his mustachioed, guy-peeing soul.
Oh, and of course, the cab driver did go with "Ben."
Eventually.
That's because cab drivers are probably preoccupied with all sorts of stuff, like whether there's traffic and where. Still, you're paying, and if you want to be called "Ben" or "coffee mug" or whatever, they'll probably oblige.
But come on...getting all butthurt that everybody's first question to some new person they encounter is what pronouns they prefer...this is like my being indignant that you haven't asked me straight off whether I identify as a member of British royalty or perhaps as an glass of eggnog.
This sort of whinging demand is ultimately a form of narcissism with a little bit of lipstick on as a disguise.
via @primalpoly
How does it work grammatically?
Good evening they/them
Is this where the authorities step in a legislate to make Ben wear a special badge?
So people know what to call them/they they-them
Is yo fool gender correct?
Graham Palmer at May 29, 2017 7:28 AM
This kind of thing makes transgender-ism seem nothing more than a ploy to find a way to be offended. "I walk around as a man and you called me 'sir.' I'm offended!"
Conan the Grammarian at May 29, 2017 8:22 AM
Ben, you are not just non-binary, you are a dick of the highest water.
Does he actually get paid to write this crap?
Jay at May 29, 2017 9:36 AM
OMG grow the f up! If you are so special, get a large badge that says "I only answer to Ben" and make sure you always wear it. What makes you so special that people should know you need kid glove treatment? Go live somewhere where you have to actually work to eat and try that on.
Robin at May 29, 2017 9:36 AM
Key descriptor here is "Oregonian". File this under 'ignore' and move on.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at May 29, 2017 10:37 AM
If this person doesn't like either male or female identity for themselves, why call yourself Ben, a decidedly male name?
Jacqueline Tellalian at May 29, 2017 11:27 AM
This is like a friend who did not like being called "African-American" because her family hails from one of the Caribbean islands. She would tell you that if the conversation came up somehow -- and she didn't bring it up.
Amy Alkon at May 29, 2017 11:28 AM
"Good evening sir/madam/miss"
there is no other form of address. "good evening it" "may I help you with your bad they" are just idiotic. These people want something that does not exist. Also, if you have a beard, you are "sir". The cab driver does not have ESP. If someone assumes I voted/love Hilary/Trump I don't yell at them because they assumed something. I either let it go or correct them politely, depending on if it is worth it.
What does non-binary mean? Does it mean bisexual? Why on earth does anyone need to know that? Does it mean you have no attraction to anyone sexually? Again, who cares? Does it mean some days you wake up feeling so pretty? The get rid of the beard. What is this with making the sexual part of your identity the whole identity?
cc at May 29, 2017 11:30 AM
Some gender neutral pronouns according to a pdf posted by Oberlin College of Arts & Sciences:
"With its longstanding commitments to access, diversity, & inclusion, Oberlin is the ideal laboratory in which to study and design the world we want."
he/she:
sie - pronounced “see”
zie - pronounced “zee”
him/her:
hir - pronounced “here”
zir - pronounced like “sir” with a “z”
his/hers:
hirs - pronounced “here’s”
zirs - pronounced like “sirs” with a “z”
himself/herself:
hirself - pronounced “here-self”
zirself - pronounced like “sir-self” with a “z”
"Note: It is often also acceptable to use the third person plural (they, them, their, themselves) instead of the third-person singular (he/she, his/hers, him/her, himself/herself) when referring to someone who has not expressed a clear pronoun choice."
______
It is "often" acceptable; I guess not always. And how do we know whether someone prefers see or zie, or hir or zir? Or any of the other dozens of gender neutral nouns that Oberlin doesn't mention?
It really doesn't matter. We're not talking about accommodating the hyper-fragile emotions of a fraction of the 0.3 percent of the population that claims to be transgender. This is more about "designing the world we want" by badgering (or subjugating) the rest of us into compliance with their social and political goal to change the culture into their narrow minded view of diverse, inclusive and just.
Ken R at May 29, 2017 12:00 PM
I'm seriously thinking about making my preferred pronouns "thee, thou, thy, thine and lord". Note that other gender neutral pronouns, like the ones Oberlin recommends, are third person, used when talking about someone, not when talking to them. Mine are second person, to be used when speaking to me. This will give me ten times more opportunities to be offended and correct the offender. It might also have the benefit of making them avoid talking to me. Being the tolerant man that I am, I won't scold anyone for not using them unless they scold me for mis-gendering them.
Ken R at May 29, 2017 12:28 PM
Is this where the authorities step in a legislate to make Ben wear a special badge?
I like this.
Make it really expensive, and require yearly renewal in person down at the Kiwi version of the DMV.
I R A Darth Aggie at May 29, 2017 12:28 PM
And it is folks that behave like these "offended" folks do that will cause the rest of us to NOT give up a seat to someone we might think is pregnant, or not call someone "sir" or "Ma'am" as show of respect.
After all, if I'm trying to be polite to a stranger and they go off on me I'll ask myself why did I bother trying to be nice.
It would be far better to not do or say or have any interaction with someone who might make a stink because I don't see the world through their lens.
charles at May 29, 2017 12:36 PM
The level of solipsism involved in making this point with a passing stranger is stunning -- not to mention using it as the springboard for a newspaper article.
"How are you, sir?"
"Fine."
And go about your day. If no disrespect is intended, no disrespect should be inferred.
Kevin at May 29, 2017 12:46 PM
The Ben: "Or pretend that you're a cat, and everyone calls you a dog. Now imagine that happening every. Bloody. Day... That's only a fraction of what it's like to be misgendered."
That ben needs help. And I don't mean support, I mean treatment.
And I've never heard of a cat that gave a damn whether anyone called it a dog.
The Ben: 'I don't consider myself female or male. I'm simply a human being who prefers the pronouns "they" and "their"... Having to explain why having facial hair does not magically mean someone goes by "he" or "him" sometimes just gets too exhausting."'
Then write it on your fricken forehead! Expecting a stranger to magically discern that ben, with his... uh... their... ugly facial hair, doesn't consider theirself to be male and simply prefers the pronouns they and their is not reasonable and sane. Either this ben is mentally ill or this is all about a social/political agenda - about manipulating everyone else into the position of having to refer to everyone with gender neutral pronouns, and conforming to their narrow minded, intolerant view of a diverse, inclusive, just (and politically leftist) society.
Ken R at May 29, 2017 1:07 PM
I'm betting that Ben is a huge self absorbed PITA in most every aspect of his life.
Honestly this reads like a parody.
Ben is a twat at May 29, 2017 1:40 PM
charles: 'And it is folks that behave like these "offended" folks do that will cause the rest of us to NOT give up a seat to someone we might think is pregnant, or not call someone "sir" or "Ma'am" as show of respect.'
But that will only happen because peaceful, polite, considerate people have a strong aversion to confrontation, especially making a scene in public, and feel guilty about offending other people. Those are favorable qualities in a peaceful, civilized society. But rude social justice warriors and other selfish, inconsiderate people like the ben above will use the good qualities of others against them to manipulate them by acting offended, confronting them publicly and making a scene.
Polite, considerate people can either submit and comply with the expectations of the rude minority to avoid the discomfort of offending them, and thus contribute to creating a society where pregnant women and the elderly stand, obnoxious, transgender activists and neurotic feminists are never offended, and no one dares to speak to a stranger or make a considerate gesture for fear of inadvertently offending someone; or we can continue being polite and considerate, which the vast majority of people around us will appreciate and reciprocate, and expect that every once in a while we'll mistake a fat woman for a pregnant woman or a boy for a girl, or some hyper-conceited ben will go off on us because we failed to read "their" mind.
Ken R at May 29, 2017 2:02 PM
Amy didn't say that she'd actually seen him pee while standing up. Without such a witness, I will always have doubts.
When a guy says he's not masculine, why shouldn't we trust him?
Crid at May 29, 2017 2:08 PM
My reaction to someone saying this to me would be one of three reactions:
1. laugh, it's obviously a joke some hidden camera show, right...
2. Avoid the crazy person and warn others.
3. Say something like 'let's compromise, I'll call you ass-wipe'
Joe J at May 29, 2017 2:31 PM
It's part of our biological and socio-cultural norms that we treat other men with a kind of default man-to-man respect ... if I am e.g. at a social or work event and I start treating the men I meet as if they might be women or 'non-binary' it's actually literally a form of insult .. 'sir' is a pretty respectful form of address, to bash someone for being respectful is a low move.
This person sounds like he's really a bully using their 'non-binary' 'faux-victimhood' as a premise to make undue demands on others. He *wants* to be mis-identified ... or he wouldn't be wearing that beard.
I 'identify as' a man .. a real f'in man, 150% masculine old-fashioned man, and want to be identified as such. I don't want this gender-neutral shit, I want people to assume my gender.
Lobster at May 29, 2017 3:01 PM
Ben Mack may be a man in the conventional sense, i.e., an adult of species H. sapiens of the male sex, but his opinion piece tells the world what he really is: a horrid, spoiled child.
While I don't wish to make a habit of nitpicking our esteemed hostess on her own blog, I don't see Ben's situation as much analogous to that of the above-mentioned Caribbean-American woman. Because, while she may have been a bit particular about her heritage, she didn't make a great show of taking offense, at least, not in Ms. Alkon's telling of the story.
Also, unlike the woman of Caribbean ancestry, Ben chose to be exacting about something that ordinary services workers, most of whom intend nothing but respect and politeness, will almost invariably screw up: "How may I help you, sir?"
The most charitable thing that I can say about Ben is that he reminded me of this bit from season two of Monty Python's Flying Circus: https://youtu.be/tyQvjKqXA0Y
L. Beau Macaroni at May 29, 2017 4:25 PM
Two observations:
1. People who protest that they aren't special snowflakes are totally special snowflakes. In fact, they might be the specialest.
2. Ben needs to wear a sign on his chest stating his choice of gender and his pronoun preferences. That way, those of us who are tired of all of this bullshit will know to avoid him.
Cousin Dave at May 30, 2017 6:25 AM
A close friend of mine is non-binary (uses a gender-neutral name, but looks like a woman to most people and a teenage boy to some). Uses "they" as their preferred pronoun).
We were talking about this subject recently, and my friend said they usually let "the little stuff" go, like cabbies/Uber drivers using "ma'am." But, if they DO correct someone (maybe it's a long ride with a chatty driver), they remain polite. Usually they'll say cheerfully, "If it's all the same to you, you can just call me [name]. I'm not exactly a ma'am or a sir. And please let me know what you prefer to be called!"
And nobody has a problem with this. Ben's response is accusatory and too brusque a response to an honest mistake.
sofar at May 30, 2017 8:12 AM
> if they DO correct someone
> (maybe it's a long ride with
> a chatty driver), they remain
> polite.
No. What you're describing is a contradiction in terms. Your friend is insular & infantile; there's nothing to "correct," so demeanor is irrelevant.
Perhaps our cultural ambiance of runaway condescension by the Social Justice Warrior has baked smirking politesse into your friend's immortal soul (in the position typically typically reserved for courage). But resisting such stupidities is a first achievement of adult character, measured perhaps by one's sensitivity to the *sincerely* disadvantaged and oppressed... Your friend has been too narcissistic and timid to see these challenges in the lives of those nearby.
Consider earning better & more-empathetic friendships.
Crid at May 30, 2017 9:42 AM
Shit fuck, child.
"If it's all the same to you...."
Why for the love of Christ would it be?
Your friend should stay indoors.
Crid at May 30, 2017 9:48 AM
We were talking about this subject recently, and my friend said they usually let "the little stuff" go, like cabbies/Uber drivers using "ma'am." But, if they DO correct someone (maybe it's a long ride with a chatty driver), they remain polite. Usually they'll say cheerfully, "If it's all the same to you, you can just call me [name]. I'm not exactly a ma'am or a sir. And please let me know what you prefer to be called!"
With all due respect to your friend, this still is far too much information laid in the lap of a passing stranger.
Kevin at May 30, 2017 10:00 AM
Oh, Dear Lord. What kind of self-important, useless little shit thinks that their gender identity is something anyone even cares about? These people think they can dictate the use of language now? You drive 30 minutes outside of whatever large liberal city you're in, and that kind of pretentious scolding is likely to get you beat up or run out of town.
ahw at May 30, 2017 11:18 AM
But aren't Australia and New Zealand pretty much the same thing? I mean, New Zealand is just a slightly classier version of Australia, but isn't that mostly due to lacking the vast expanse of interior and all the pickup-trucks in the yard that come with distance from the coast?
smurfy at May 30, 2017 11:29 AM
So you run around CLEARLY looking like a man, yet get all pissed off it people assume you are a man???? WTF is wrong with this guy????
Stormy at May 30, 2017 12:26 PM
No. What you're describing is a contradiction in terms. Your friend is insular & infantile; there's nothing to "correct," so demeanor is irrelevant.
People who call me Mrs. Husband'sLastName aren't wrong because, tradition-wise, they are actually CORRECT. But if I choose to state my preference politely (for example, to the aunt who was making us a custom address stamp as a wedding gift and very much expected us to use it on Christmas cards), and they respond, "Too bad! I'm right! Just to spite you I'll call you Mrs. Snowflake Feminist!" they'd be the asshole.
Miss Manners agrees with me that it's rude to continue to address someone in a way they don't want to be addressed as long as the person asks politely. The guy wasn't wrong to call Ben sir, but, after Ben stated his preference, the cabbie becomes wrong for disregarding that (although in this case, it's clear that the cabbie wasn't really listening anyway). People on this thread who are fantasizing about calling Ben "asswipe" in response to his request are the ones being 'infantile.' Ben is also wrong for going from Zero to Offended and snapping at a cabbie.
If Ben asked me to call him Ben in a non-confrontational/non accusatory way, I'd say, "OK cool, Ben." It's just one of the many things I don't have the time to get upset over/take personally. It's Ben's delivery and anger that are the issue.
sofar at May 30, 2017 12:39 PM
With all due respect to your friend, this still is far too much information laid in the lap of a passing stranger.
They only use this in for long rides where the driver is talking their ear off and ending every question with "ma'am" or "Ms. Firstname." Which happens in my very friendly city. My friend used to just leave it at, "Oh, just call me [name]," but, this being Texas, the Uber driver would inevitably say, "Oh my mama ALWAYS taught me to use 'sir or ma'am!'"
So they added the, "I'm not a sir or ma'am" bit.
Again, they usually let it go, especially if it's someone they'll never see again. But, similarly, my husband doesn't go by the name on his credit card/ID and will often say "I go by [nickname], you can just call me that" to service people who call him his official name -- and correct them repeatedly but kindly. And my dad will interrupt anyone who calls him "Mr." and ask them to call him by his first name. It's jarring to be called something you don't like and totally fine to state your preference.
sofar at May 30, 2017 12:52 PM
Nah, it's not Ben's delivery.
It's Ben's smug condescension and readiness to take offense over a friendly comment by a guy who works for a living and is simply trying to do his job.
It's Ben's ridiculous belief that he can simply will himself into a "non-binary" gender.
It's Ben's insistence that the world join him in his "non-binary" delusion; and bow to it.
It's Ben's awkward use of a plural personal pronoun (they) to describe itself in its bio blurb. "When not getting lost in remote parts of the globe or just a few blocks from home, they write about gender equality and social issues."
It's Ben's casual assumption of intellectual and tolerance superiority over the binary-gendered masses.
It's Ben's blithe delivery of his self-aggrandizement. "There's also a pretty good chance there's an actual bounty on my head courtesy of the North Korean government. I'm not joking." An actual bounty? Gee willikers.
Ben, get over yourself. You're just not that important in the world. Nobody is going to alter his or her own lifestyle to accommodate your delusions of gender identity. And nobody cares that you've worked up the courage to be an asshole to people who are simply trying to be polite to you. Finally, if the North Koreans wanted you dead, you'd be dead. Just ask Kim Jong Nam.
Conan the Grammarian at May 30, 2017 1:15 PM
> But if I choose to
No.
As so many others have toiled to explain, I (cab driver/guy on the street/minor financial contact) have problems of my own, and haven't the time, inclination or motive to investigate, compose and deploy the honorific you'd deem suitably flattering. Get out of my car.
…And not even reason to trust that he knows what's best in his own case.
More, but I gotta dentist appointment.
Crid at May 30, 2017 1:24 PM
BIICT, not BITCT.
But you understand how that could happen.
Crid at May 30, 2017 1:25 PM
While I too have admired and cited Judith Martin on Amy's web pages, you have no business bringing her into this. Bumbling Ben didn't merely request a minor change of address from one typical type to another, he demanded a complete rewrite of the tables of social identification. There's no reason to think he knows what should go in each little square.
In a thread about social interaction on a site of an author who writes etiquette books, citing an expert in both social interaction and manners is totally appropriate. Hence, Miss Manners.
You think your life, and your participation in our churning culture, will and does appear to you on a cursive menu of choices, a listing from which you will "choose." (And I hear the I in your "I choose" very, very loudly.)
Not really. Aunt sent me a mock-up of the stamp she'd made us and we responded with, "We love the design. Could you change 'Mr. and Mrs. Hisfirstname Last name' to 'Sofar Herlastname and Husband Hislastname'?"
I wouldn't send out mail with my name misspelled, nor would I with the incorrect name. Obviously, we could have just accepted the stamp, but that would lead to an awkward conversation over the holidays about why we weren't using it.
To many, someone asking to be addressed by her maiden name has also "demanded a complete rewrite of the tables of social identification." Society is going through some growing pains right now, with regard to him/her/they because it's the Newest Thing that certain people have decided to get upset about.
Hence, my citation of MM's elegant solution: Be sparing in whom you correct and assuming they mean well (a rule which Ben DID, as I said, violate). AND address people how they want to be addressed, if they tell you.
sofar at May 30, 2017 2:06 PM
Nah, it's not Ben's delivery. ... It's Ben's casual assumption of intellectual and tolerance superiority over the binary-gendered masses.
Yeah, Ben is obnoxious. Totally agreed there. I don't want to be friends with Ben.
But in Ben's one-on-one interactions with people, they don't have that whole picture (work bio, etc.). So, if Ben is polite in the moment, Ben can certainly say, "Just call me Ben," without being an ass. In this particular essay, as I've said, Ben was too abrupt about it. Perhaps Ben's incapable of NOT being a jerk. But I am saying it's possible for a non-binary person to make their preference known without BEING a jerk. Others on this thread are arguing that just bringing it up makes you a jerk.
It's similar to how, if I introduce a newly married friend by her maiden name out of habit to another friend and she politely asks me to call her Mrs. Husbandslastname, I'll happily do that. Maybe in her work bio she rants against women who keep their maiden names and argues that it spoils the gravitas of marriage. If she's polite to me at the party, I'm cool with that.
So yes, in-the-moment context and delivery do matter.
sofar at May 30, 2017 2:28 PM
> citing an expert in both
> social interaction and
> manners is totally
> appropriate.
No, what we're saying is that Little Ben's "social interactions" exceed anything that might reasonably be described as "manners."
> To many, someone asking to be
> addressed by her maiden name
> has also "demanded a complete
> rewrite of the tables of
> social identification."
Not "someone," but generations of women. You keep confusing the boundary between snowflakehood and commonwealth. I mean, you're doing it on purpose. You're part of the problem.
Don't do that.
> AND address people how
> they want to be addressed,
> if they tell you.
Hereafter, I'm to be addressed and referred to as "Lord Supremo-Fabulax Cridmeister the Enduring Seer of all Beauties and Recorder of All Truths," in all contexts. By everyone, forever, without exception.
Do you think you'll comply? Do you think anyone else will? Or are you beginning to see the problem here?
Would you want to spend time with someone, or follow someone in a voting booth, who didn't condense my preferred greeting to "Hey, Fucker..."?
You ask to much of people who don't care about you, and I "choose" not to take you seriously.
> Society is going through some
> growing pains right now
Yeah. Right.
Crid at May 30, 2017 3:58 PM
Call them Y'all if singular , or
All Y'all if plural. A newscaster on Fox said that when this " problem " came up one morning.
yet another dave at May 30, 2017 4:51 PM
"Y'all" is plural. It's a contraction for "you all." Among non-Southerners and Texans, "y'all" is often misused as singular.
The newscaster probably got the "y'all / all y'all" quote from Kinky Friedman, country music singer, author, and one-time candidate for governor of Texas.
And it's not "ya'll." Never "ya'll." As I said earlier, "y'all" is a contraction of "you all." The apostrophe stands in for the missing "ou" in "you" - much like the apostrophe stands in for the missing letters in "can't," "he'll," "won't," and other contractions. "Ya'll" is just a mess.
Conan the Grammarian at May 30, 2017 7:54 PM
Yes.
Crid at May 30, 2017 10:53 PM
"Kinky Friedman, country music singer"
He and Jerry Jeff Walker were the poster children for boozy drugged-out cow-rockers.
Get Your Biscuits In The Oven And Your Buns In The Bed
1973 and Kinky managed to bring a Zappa vibe to country music.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at May 31, 2017 10:10 PM
Ah yes, Kinky Friedman and the Texas Jewboys. You couldn't use a band name like that today, even in jest.
Cousin Dave at June 1, 2017 6:44 AM
Gog and Dave, if you haven't already, read his Greenwich Killing Time, or any of his other novels. Ostensibly they're mysteries, but they serve as social commentary as well.
Conan the Grammarian at June 1, 2017 7:05 AM
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