Otto Warmbier: What *Should* Be The Punishment For Being Unwise In Your 20s -- The Death Penalty?
I think it's unwise to go to places like North Korea. And to be truthful, though I didn't blog it at the time, that was my thinking when I initially heard about Otto Warmbier's arrest -- supposedly for stealing a poster.
But did he steal a poster? I've reflected on that since, and we really don't know, and they don't exactly have a justice system there.
And let's say he did. At age 21. If he did it, not that smart, but the early 20s are not the age of genius wisdom...for any of us.
And what shouldn't happen -- even if you do steal a poster? You shouldn't be tortured to death by a violent regime. That just should not be the punishment.
But, tragically, Otto Warmbier, shipped back to the U.S. in a coma by North Korea, died here.
Anyone with an ounce of compassion and an ounce of love for the rights we have in this country would be sickened by this.
And then we have La Sha, with this ugly piece at the Huff Post, "North Korea Proves Your White Male Privilege Is Not Universal":
...Now, my mother's callous reaction to [Michael] Fay's sentence is my reaction to another young white man who went to an Asian country and violated their laws, and learned that the shield his cis white male identity provides here in America is not teflon abroad.As shocked as I am by the sentence handed down to Warmbier, I am even more shocked that a grown man, an American citizen, would not only voluntarily enter North Korea but also commit what's been described a "college-style prank." That kind of reckless gall is an unfortunate side effect of being socialized first as a white boy, and then as a white man in this country. Every economic, academic, legal and social system in this country has for more than three centuries functioned with the implicit purpose of ensuring that white men are the primary benefactors of all privilege. The kind of arrogance bred by that kind of conditioning is pathogenic, causing its host to develop a subconscious yet no less obnoxious perception that the rules do not apply to him, or at least that their application is negotiable.
Sick. My take:
"Privilege" is what anyone in the West, & particularly, America, has. These ugly sneers about Warmbler are racist hate w/a little lipstick. https://t.co/pmSHmiLho5
— Amy Alkon (@amyalkon) June 20, 2017
And more:
In a way, it speaks to what America is that a kid might have a view of the world as a place to travel with wonder & not fear.
— Amy Alkon (@amyalkon) June 20, 2017
via @CHSommers
My initial thought when I saw that Huff Post piece was that it was from the Onion. Then I figured that it was the usual Huff Post tactic of getting someone no one has heard of to write a sensationalist article and get clicks.
Room 237 at June 19, 2017 10:45 PM
What's 'racist' about expecting an adult man not to go larking in a country where he essentially has no rights, where ypthe US government explicitly warns people not to go, where Americans have been held without redress for years?
He's a bloody idiot who paid the ultimate price. That goes way beyond "not that smart."
Kevin at June 20, 2017 12:56 AM
Ah, yes. "White Privilege". To the snowflake or otherwise minimally exceptional, privileges are never earned, I guess.
Radwaste at June 20, 2017 1:35 AM
I think he grew up in a country where there is a functioning rule of law, where safety is emphasized to the point of redundancy, and thus a place where all too many never learn caution or discretion. He treated his trip to North Korea as he would a trip to Disneyland, with tragic results.
Robert Evans at June 20, 2017 2:53 AM
Short of locking you up for your own protection, the State department really can't discourage travel to North Korea more strongly than they already do.
It takes a certain amount of reflection and self awareness to recognize that the rest of the world isnt like the US and that some places are dowright hazardous to your health.
Remember the brainwashed idiots who went to Iraq to form human shields around vital Iraqi infrstructure?
Why is it that academically bright, book smart people do some of the dumbest things?
I had a Harvard educated MD acquaintence who took a nice trip to a backwater African country to see some exotic wildlife and landed right in the middle of a political revolution. Sad that she was naive enough to do this, but worse, she had her 20 year old daughter with her.
On a side note, someone was funding this nonsense. Tours to North Korea arent free. If it wasn't student loan money than it must have been his equally cluless parents.
I feel bad for people who fail one of these real life intelligence tests, but most of them wouldnt learn this lesson any other way.
Isab at June 20, 2017 3:54 AM
Not so long ago, we were wondering why Americans smuggling drugs in Turkey were surprised that their punishments--not to mention trials--were so unAmerican.
Part of the reason could be that the progs' endless chanting that the US is the worst place on Earth means everyplace else must be better. Warmbier was a college student, so that meant he was exposed to that nonsense. Whether he believed it or not is not the question necessarily. It may have simply been part of his worldview not to worry about such things since NK isn't the US and so....hey, look, a squirrel.
And of course history of anti-US regimes is whitewashed so he probably hasn't heard of the Pueblo, kidnappings by NK agents, mass starvation, ingenious executions.
Some years ago, SEALs rescued Jessica Buchanan from East Africa. It was a huge op, considering intel, medical inferences, logistical support, and so forth. There are Youtube pieces on that. Not all situations allow for such work.
So I guess a question might arise; Are there some travel destinations which relieve the US of responsibility for getting you back?
But I keep returning to the point that Warmbier was a college student and there are not many categories of people who are more ignorant of the actual world.
Richard Aubrey at June 20, 2017 4:10 AM
One has to be able to learn from other people's mistakes. First, you don't have enough time to make all the mistakes, the second is that some of those mistakes are fatal.
North Korea is a dangerous place unless you name is Kim Jong-un. Even that is questionable. Thus endeth the lesson.
I R A Darth Aggie at June 20, 2017 4:21 AM
You keep writing "Warmbler." It's "Warmbier," and it's pronounced "warm beer," which is exactly what that name means in German.
Isab: Why is it that academically bright, book smart people do some of the dumbest things?
I would say because their intellectual superiority convinces them that the consensus of the American people and the advisories of the government come from a "less intelligent" place. That the information that comes from the hoi-polloi couldn't possibly understand all the nuance of the situation.
Basically, they believe that advisories are for those too stupid to understand how to conduct themselves in a given situation. But since they're so intellectually superior, they wouldn't fall for the obvious traps that commoners would fall into. Advisories don't apply to them, because they aren't stupid.
Well, I might not be of Havard caliber. But how smart do you have to be to know that travelling to North Korea is dangerous? Apparently, somewhere between Dennis Rodman and me. I'm smart enough to know to stay out of North Korea (barring a radical change in government). Dennis Rodman isn't.
Patrick at June 20, 2017 5:03 AM
"You keep writing "Warmbler." It's "Warmbier," and it's pronounced "warm beer," which is exactly what that name means in German"
Slight quibble. Prounounced Varmbier in German I think.
The family is Jewish.
Isab at June 20, 2017 5:10 AM
Being smart isn't good enough and it never has been. If intelligence was enough then Mensa members would all be rich.
And it is pretty sick to take glee in the tragic and painful death of someone who never had any impact on you.
Ben at June 20, 2017 5:25 AM
I think he grew up in a country where there is a functioning rule of law, where safety is emphasized to the point of redundancy, and thus a place where all too many never learn caution or discretion. He treated his trip to North Korea as he would a trip to Disneyland, with tragic results.
I think Robert Evans is exactly right about this -- and I wrote something similar in the post.
It's easy to get the name wrong. It's hard to see the "i" in there as an "i," and few of us are used to the German or the name.
Amy Alkon at June 20, 2017 5:37 AM
It's easy to get the name wrong. It's hard to see the "i" in there as an "i," and few of us are used to the German or the name.
Amy Alkon at June 20, 2017 5:37 AM
I do that often, and blame small print on my tablet coupled with my 61 year old vision. As you probably have noticed, I'm not much of a speller to begin with, and I'm a bit of a left handed dyslexic.
I apologize for piling on, but think that quibbling about spelling deserved a pedantic correction about German pronunciation, especially when the name is most likely Yiddish. .
Isab at June 20, 2017 6:34 AM
Isab: Slight quibble. Prounounced Varmbier in German I think.
It would be pronounce varm beer in German. I'm simply pointing out how his family pronounces it.
Like Anthony Weiner. He says "weener." In German, it would be pronounced "viner." John Boehner says "bayner." In German, it's closer to "burner."
Patrick at June 20, 2017 6:35 AM
It wasn't meant to be "quibbling," incidentally. But I simply thought it was important enough to correct, since this unfortunate young man's fate will likely be in the national dialogue for weeks to come, and Amy might choose to blog about him and respond to tweets about him again.
Basically, we're going to be talking about him for a while, so we should probably get the name right. I wouldn't consider that quibbling. Unless you'd rather keep right on getting it wrong, after responding to tweets and blogging about him for weeks.
And yes, mistaking "i" for "l," especially given the way his name is spelled, is very easy to do.
Patrick at June 20, 2017 7:00 AM
Interesting thought experiment? What would happen to an ethnic alien who publicly wrote about Koreans in such a hateful, implicitly genocidal fashion in North Korea? Hopefully she would meet the same fate that Mr. Warm-beer met. One benefit of loving in an actual white supremacist society would be the de facto if not de jure legal ability to execute La Sha and the entire HuffPo staff for their disgusting anti-white hate speech.
AndrewR at June 20, 2017 7:12 AM
Well, I might not be of Havard caliber. But how smart do you have to be to know that travelling to North Korea is dangerous?
He almost certainly knew it was dangerous, and therein lies the appeal. The tour company he used has the slogan, "Trips to places your mom doesn't want you to go."
That said, risking one's literal life is an abstract concept for your typical college student. If someone asked me, a 30-something, to go to North Korea with them, I'd think about what it would do to my parents if I got arrested there, the career I'd lose, and never being able to do the things and see the people I love ever again. For a college kid, dangerous may mean, "I might end up with a great story to tell."
As IRA Death Aggie says above, humans learn from others' mistakes as much as their own. I can only hope this makes things "real" for other students considering such a trip and prevents them from going to NK. Because god, what a nightmare for Otto and his poor family.
sofar at June 20, 2017 7:49 AM
This has nothing to do with "white privilege." And HuffPo is being idiotic to promote even the hint that it does.
This was about a young man who grew up in a country in which conformity is not brutally enforced by a thuggish state traveling to a country in which it is and not making the needed adjustment.
He grew up in a country in which teenagers regularly steal or deface road signs, spray paint graffiti on buildings, and shout down their professors and lawmakers with few to no consequences. A trip to North Korea would be a "hoot," right?
Teenagers in the US think the North Korean are the "villain du jour" for Hollywood today. To them, Nazis are cartoon movie villains, that Che Guevara was an enlightened and peaceful revolutionary, that the Soviet Union was just a dull place to live where people had funny accents - because we've taught them through our culture (and our relative safety) that evil is banal. Despite their hyperbole on how oppressive the "white male patriarchy" is, they've never seen real evil up close and don't actually understand that it exists.
He may have stolen the poster thinking it would look neat on his dorm room wall. Like the thriving demand for old USSR paraphernalia, it's kitschy. If the North Koreans were smart, they'd start a company to export and sell their propaganda posters to teenagers in the West.
It's tragic that his life ended like this. He did little to deserve that, by Western standards. By Eastern standards, perhaps he did. We, in the US, do not understand such brutally-enforced conformism but, like the caning incident in Singapore and the desperate cosplay based expression of self identity in Japan, rigidly-enforced conformity seems to be closer to the norm over there. And when you go to another country, you're subject to their ways and laws.
Were I he, I would go with that pronunciation, just so I could tell my staff to call me on my "burner" phone.
Conan the Grammarian at June 20, 2017 8:10 AM
Can't we just blame old cisgendered white men and get on with hating Trump?
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at June 20, 2017 8:27 AM
And will you look at that? Salon is also on damage control. The tweet and the article both have been deleted.
Good thing the internet never forgets:
http://archive.is/6dP9N
Sixclaws at June 20, 2017 8:29 AM
Amy strikes precisely the right tone.
I couldn't think less of commenters, on this blog and elsewhere, who in the cuntliest possible language are mocking this despicably violent death as a product of some kind of "stupidity." It's appalling that saying "Toljassoe!" in the tone of an eight-year-old is how they've chosen to move through the world... That this is the destination they've selected for a grown-up posture in society, and for their adult understanding of international affairs. They'll cluck like hens and say "Sum a'dem peeple'z just plain meen!" as if there was no human agency to the atrocities above the 38th parallel.
But North Korea is in fact a human nightmare, and not a usually-avoidable danger in the natural world, like a lightning strike while dancing in avspringtime thunderstorm, or slipping on the ice in wintertime. NK is the grimmest place on our planet... Certainly the most demonically wretched spot known to the international community. The Norks should have had exactly the kind of growth that their surrounding neighbors have had. And the reason we know they haven't is that people have visited and returned to tell the tale. Sometimes those visitors were courageous adults, journalists and mere gossips, who knew perfectly well that they were taking a risk by going to collect information. And other times they were young people, perhaps(!) mildly less-attuned to the risk, expressing the fundamental human enthusiasm to find out what's happening in a mysterious place. I've read about 50 thoughtful pieces from visitors over the years, including by Christopher Hitchens; but dozens of other less-credentialled investigators have given us the full body of knowledge we now enjoy. Otto didn't offer himself as a sacrifice on our behalf; he wasn't stupid, he was murdered, and we owe him the clarity to say so.
If you're the sort of puckering Sphincter-Seven Dorkmundus who needs to respond to news like this by reassuring yourself, and anyone who'll listen, that you're safe from monsters like North Korea because you see the world's hazards clearly and will maintain distance from them, you've missed the point. And you want to be admired for not paying attention to the world?
Well, sorry, but beyond any mumbling circle of similarly torpid friends you might have collected, that will not be possible.
Drink a beer, take off your pants and watch some game shows on teevee: We'll call you if we need you.
Looking back on this one, I see that the word "human" gets a heavy workout.
But how else to show contrast with those zombies who respond to a horror like this with a pointed finger and a sniggering smirk?
Crid at June 20, 2017 8:42 AM
My thoughts are with Otto's family. And my admiration.
Crid at June 20, 2017 8:42 AM
Jesus. There some people reading this blog who have some tragically corrupt ideas about what it means to be savvy.
Crid at June 20, 2017 9:16 AM
"he wasn't stupid, he was murdered"
Not precise. He was murdered for being stupid.
I agree that the primary focus should be on the murder. But, a glance at the stupid, in the spirit of learning from other people's mistakes, seems proper to me.
gcmortal at June 20, 2017 9:18 AM
Oh, just blow your own brains out.
For fuck's sake, child.
Crid at June 20, 2017 9:23 AM
Sadly, being able to bury their child, while of little to no consolation in a situation like this, was probably the second-best outcome they could have hoped for.
Conan the Grammarian at June 20, 2017 9:33 AM
You guys are Louis in the cancer ward, but without the irony.
I'd pay a thousand dollars to see one of you look Otto's parents in the eye and say what you've said in this anonymous forum.
Crid at June 20, 2017 9:41 AM
So, you're the adult? Putting a child in its place?
Your last post shines with maturity, everyone in the forum learned a lot.. about you.
Actually, no, sorry. Long time followers learned nothing new. A reminder of your character and winning personality, if one was needed.
gcmortal at June 20, 2017 9:41 AM
There are many places that are human caused disaster areas like North Korea Crid. What are you proposing we do about them? And yes, Otto was stupid. This was an entirely predictable outcome. It isn't like Otto is the first person they've murdered in this fashion.
Something can be both tragic and foolish.
Ben at June 20, 2017 9:43 AM
And people can be both cruel & cowardly.
Crid at June 20, 2017 9:45 AM
Yonder.
Crid at June 20, 2017 10:12 AM
I would be happy to walk up to Otto Warmbiers parents, and politely ask three questions, but not this week.
1. Did you read the State Department bulletin on travel to North Korea?
2. Did you fund this trip?
3. What were you thinking?
That said, I am sure they are beating themselves up worse than I ever could.
The real tragedies in this world, are ones which are both senseless, and nobody learns anything.
However, there are a lot of true things that need to be said that most of us would be unwilling to say to someone's grief stricken parents, so I think Crid's criticism is a bit of a low blow.
Isab at June 20, 2017 10:36 AM
> but not this week.
Aw, c'mon! No time like the present, right? Never put off until tomorrow what you can do today. Have the courage of your convictions!
And the convictions of the people in this forum are brick wall. A thick brick wall.
I guess the important thing is that whenever something bad happens to someone and you think it wouldn't happen to you, you should point your finger and shriek in the most condescending language you can muster, never taking any other perspective or acknowledging any countermanding principles. (What does "He was murdered for being stupid" even mean?)
That will protect you. That will help you focus your understanding and keep you safe. Close your mind! Your work is done. North Korea is nothing to worry a out.
Crid at June 20, 2017 10:52 AM
**And then we have La Sha, with this ugly piece at the Huff Post, "North Korea Proves Your White Male Privilege Is Not Universal":**
La Sha is a racist dumbass. File its demented blather under "internet trash".
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at June 20, 2017 11:04 AM
First of all, no-one in America, black white or green, would expect the death penalty for stealing a poster.
Second, it is on the Left that a young man might be oblivious to how dangerous North Korea is because they continually talk highly of dictators from Castro to Maduro.
Finally, this "white priv" stuff also includes much GREATER obedience to the laws, to being on time, to paying their taxes, to not assaulting or shooting people. White adult middle class men have the lowest rate of crime in all categories (exceeded only by their wives)--and it is not because the cops look the other way. Part of the culture of middle class culture (of actually any race) is, besides some teenage tomfoolery, being clean, orderly, and obedient to laws. It is simply delusional to call this group criminals.
cc at June 20, 2017 11:20 AM
I'd pay a thousand dollars to see one of you look Otto's parents in the eye and say what you've said in this anonymous forum. - Crid
Put us in a room together and bring cash.
Let me ask you 'how could this have happened & he didnt deserve this' folk a question
Suppose a man stuffed 15 pounds of raw bloody hamburger in his clothes, went out into the woods, found a family of bears, walked up to them and kicked a cub in the face?
How many of you would be shocked when he got mauled?
How many of you would be appealed at the people who said 'well that was stupid'?
How many of you would say his actions didnt deserve him coming to harm?
Its like that jackass six months ago who decided to go for a dip in a Yellowstone geyser and buy the time the could fish him out without causing any further damage to the surrounding crust all they could salvage was a few bones.
Abject stupidity that results in death SHOULD be mocked. Often, as cruelly as possible. Our failure to do so previously only leads to more morons getting themselves killed
lujlp at June 20, 2017 11:47 AM
"white privilege" brought him back dead, but I seem to remember not long ago an ex President flying to NK to save Asian females from NK. Brought back alive.
Joe j at June 20, 2017 12:03 PM
Why are some viewing this as a Left/Right issue? I have no knowledge of this man's politics and don't care.
It's a matter of personal responsibility (which has nothing to do with school smarts OR street smarts). As Isab said:
I feel bad for people who fail one of these real life intelligence tests, but most of them wouldnt learn this lesson any other way.
Kevin at June 20, 2017 12:05 PM
@Radwaste: and while they're railing at people who have accomplished things, they're wasting time that could be used to accomplish something. But I'm sure the irony would be lost on these folks.
mpetrie98 at June 20, 2017 12:36 PM
@Patrick: staying out of North Korea is smart; so is staying out of Dubai, which I would love to visit, due to their advanced modernity and 12-lane-wide roads. So why do I stay out of Dubai? Because I don't want to go to jail for criticizing the wrong sect of Islam. Because I don't want to be stabbed by some random woman wearing a black bag, that's why.
mpetrie98 at June 20, 2017 12:40 PM
@Crid: I believe he was murdered, too. No doubt in my mind about it. But it's that same knowledge of North Korea that you and most of us have here that helps us see that it's not particularly bright to go to North Korea, for ANY reason. Mr. Warmbier did not see that, may he rest in peace.
mpetrie98 at June 20, 2017 12:45 PM
Young folks are the ones who are in the front of the pack of risk takers. Armchair quarterbacking after the fact, finger wagging about 'him stupid, me smart' when (and perhaps especially) the risks are known to be high, might feel good to those risk averse folks out there, but it's wrong.
Climbing mountains is risky. That dude who just free soloed El Cap did something risky, and so did Otto. We owe them all a debt, not self satisfied and sanctimonious labeling and blaming.
Godspeed Otto. My sadness lies with your family, and my outrage lies with the Norks.
railmeat at June 20, 2017 12:47 PM
"Not particularly bright."
Well then!
So long as you're not being an amorally-sarcastic, fear-addled blame-bot, go ahead and whistle your way through this midnight.
Crid at June 20, 2017 12:54 PM
railmeat at June 20, 2017 12:47 PM:
☑ This is how it's done.
Crid at June 20, 2017 12:58 PM
I must stupid, then. Because I would not have predicted this outcome.
Yes, I knew, or at least strongly suspected, that North Korean law was harsh. If I ever found myself there, for whatever strange reason, I would make damned sure I didn't run afoul of it.
But never, in my wildest dreams, would I have suspected that someone stealing a poster (which could probably quite easily be replaced for less than 50 cents in materials) would be punished with 15 years hard labor. (No, he was not sentenced to die. He was sentenced to hard labor. His death was probably unintended, although probably not something they were taking strict care to avoid.)
What would we do in the U.S.? Probably probation. I would have expected "harsh" to be more along the lines of 5 years in jail. That would be harsh.
15 years hard labor isn't harsh. It's fucking unreal. When Michael Fay was caned in Singapore, I thought that was cruel and barbaric. And he was being punished for vandalizing cars. 15 years of hard labor for stealing a poster compared to this isn't just minor league. It's like comparing a bunch of four year olds playing tee ball to the New York Yankees.
If we sentenced like that in the United States, we'd be taxed at 99% to support all the inmates we'd have.
So, for anyone who's asking, "Well, who didn't see that coming?" I didn't. I wouldn't have guessed it.
Patrick at June 20, 2017 2:40 PM
That dude who just free soloed El Cap did something risky, and so did Otto. We owe them all a debt
What debt do we owe Otto?
Kevin at June 20, 2017 2:52 PM
But never, in my wildest dreams, would I have suspected that someone stealing a poster (which could probably quite easily be replaced for less than 50 cents in materials) would be punished with 15 years hard labor.
Yes you are stupid
You are thinking in american terms, terms of a free and mostly just society.
Just look at the way leftists in this country turn on heretics for thought crimes.
The man was in one of the most oppressive regime ruled countries on the planet. And he fucked with government propaganda in full view of hundreds of witnesses.
His crime wasn't destruction of property, his crime was making the establishment look weak in front of its subjects, and that is more unforgivable than fucking the corpse of the priest you just killed on the alter in front of the congregation.
His crime was failing to properly respect those in power. His crime was crimethink
lujlp at June 20, 2017 4:31 PM
Re the Michael Fay 1994 caning case, in Singapore, for vandalism (for those who don't remember, plenty of middle-aged Americans at the time were thrilled that at least one spoiled American teenager was going to get a punishment that, at the least, was truly scary AND that would likely guarantee no recidivism), this may interest you:
http://archives.savannahnow.com/sav_pdf_archive/text/fr325/B_2359236.pdf
You have to scroll down halfway and look to the right.
Excerpt (I may not have copied this perfectly):
...The general reaction to Fay's punishment raises a number of questions, the first of which is, "what does it mean?" My theory: not outrage, but hypocrisy. In the first place, the pollsters asked the wrong question. Instead of "Do you approve of the sentence given Michael Fay?" they should nave asked "How would you feel about the sentence if Michael Fay was your son?" If the question had been personalized I'll just bet 99.9 percent of those polled would have said the sentence was barbaric, a violation of fundamental human rights. This is neither righteousness nor a reaction to rising crime at home. It's hypocrisy, pure and simple. This whole matter also rings with the hypocrisy of parents who think everybody else should do a better job of controlling their kids, of holding them accountable for their actions. All too often, when a teacher reports a child's misconduct today's parents tend to toss the hot potato back at the teacher "You must be mistaken," they say, or "My child's never had this problem with any other teacher," or they criticize how the teacher handled the problem. The child is rarely wrong...
lenona at June 20, 2017 4:36 PM
And an interesting follow-up:
http://buffalonews.com/1994/05/22/was-michael-fay-railroaded-by-john-rosemond/
First half:
Michael Fay's father and stepmother called me the other night to discuss my recent column concerning Michael's caning in Singapore. Like most people who depend on the media for information, I had taken Michael's guilt for granted. The Fays gently reminded me that I really should have known better.
It seems the public may have once again been misled by the media's appetite for the sensational. By focusing almost exclusively on Michael's sentence, the press buried the more pertinent issue: namely, is Michael truly guilty, or is he a scapegoat?
According to the Fays: For some time prior to Michael's arrest, a number of cars in upscale Singapore neighborhoods -- including the car of a government minister -- had been vandalized with spray paint. In October, police arrested a 16-year-old Asian youth for joyriding around Singapore in his father's car without a license. Certain they had one of the culprits, the police brought him in for questioning. After seven hours he gave up eight names, including Michael's. (In that regard, Michael's father maintains that an interrogation by Singapore police often involves some degree of physical "persuasion.")
Michael was arrested, but a subsequent search of his room turned up no evidence that would link him to the vandalism. He did, however, have in his possession some stolen street signs and flags taken from government buildings. The Fays readily admit that Michael had been involved in these petty thefts, the penalty for which is usually a fine.
Michael was held and questioned for nine days, the first five of which he was not allowed to see his mother, a lawyer, or anyone from the U.S. Embassy. After five days, during which Michael claims he was repeatedly hit and rarely allowed to sleep, he confessed to 53 separate counts of vandalism.
Michael was nonetheless convinced that proper legal representation would enable him to successfully plead innocent at his trial. The prosecutor, armed with nothing but questionable confessions, offered a plea bargain: plead guilty in exchange for a guarantee of no caning. Michael still didn't want to accept guilt for crimes he had not committed, but his father persuaded him that accepting the bargain would put a quick end to the nightmare. Reluctantly, Michael took his father's advice. The prosecutor, however, reneged on the deal, asking the court to prescribe caning, and the rest is history...
(snip)
lenona at June 20, 2017 4:38 PM
From what little I can find out, others who have gone with this tour company report one long five day bout of heavy drinking.
This poor guy most likely had three strikes against him.
Youthful poor judgment
Parents who werent savy enough to keep him out of North Korea.
And most likely an alcohol fueled prank that did not go over well with the totalitarian authorities.
I think his parents are probably blaming themselves right now because ultimately, they were the ones that set this chain of disaster in motion.
My son had pretty good judgment when he was 20, but when he moved to Alaska for a couple of years, he asked his dad to drive up there with him. It wasnt something he wanted to handle on his own.
Isab at June 20, 2017 4:59 PM
Quite frankly, I've come to expect nothing better from the Huffington Post.
charles at June 20, 2017 5:08 PM
"fucking the corpse of the priest you just killed on the alter in front of the congregation."
So hot.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at June 20, 2017 5:53 PM
"So, for anyone who's asking, "Well, who didn't see that coming?" I didn't. I wouldn't have guessed it."
Then some small good has come of this. Yes Patrick, messing with the government posters is a death sentence in North Korea. Roughly half of the North Korean populace is in their military. The other half are effectively in jail or slaves. However you want to put it. This is a normal and common example of justice in North Korea. Other regimes have had similar reactions to messing with their propaganda all over the world. In the USSR getting imprisoned for life in Siberia was the common response. Having a radio you could change the channel on was a death sentence from hard labor as a mining slave in Maoist China. North Korea is tragically far from unique.
Ben at June 20, 2017 6:47 PM
> So hot.
Naw, he meant "altar."
Crid at June 20, 2017 6:54 PM
Spell check doesnt catch homophones
lujlp at June 20, 2017 11:52 PM
There is a great deal of speculation going on here with an associated dearth of factual information.
That is a recipe for disaster when it comes to evaluating a tragic set of events such as this.
We would all be better off sticking to the facts instead of making up stories to fill in the substantial gaps we have regarding how all of this came to pass.
Ultimately, if one makes up a seemingly plausible set of events and then concludes that Otto was stupid... or that his parents were responsible... or that he was drunk... and those conclusions are based upon ones overactive imagination we stand to gain nothing in terms of insight or understanding about reality. We only stand to gain insight into the mind of the person experiencing the fantasy.
For example, to those claiming that Otto was stupid, there is an underlying assumption here that when he chose to travel he was completely unaware of the risks. Maybe that is true, maybe it isn't... but I have seen no evidence to suggest one way or the other. So why conclude that he was completely oblivious as opposed to an informed risk taker when we have no evidence to support either contention?
Furthermore, why presume that his parents paid for this trip and fully supported this decision instead of assuming that they fought with him every inch but ultimately had no say in the matter because he is an adult?
What I see are people assuming the worst possible facts in order to judge the dead and the grieving as harshly as possible.
We could just as easily assume a more favorable set facts... or better yet assume nothing at all and just go by what is known and established.
That some folks are looking for an excuse to blame Otto and his family is a bit disturbing when it isn't necessary to do that.
Artemis at June 21, 2017 5:36 AM
Crid wrote, "Otto didn't offer himself as a sacrifice on our behalf; he wasn't stupid, he was murdered, and we owe him the clarity to say so."
That's the best concise comment that I've seen about this whole mess.
L. Beau Macroni at June 21, 2017 5:50 AM
When one enlists in wartime, one understands there is a risk of death or crippling wounds. The actual probability is not knowable but the likelihood is much higher than if one remained a civilian.
The above is an analogy.
Did Warmbier know of an increased risk or not?
If he did, and accepted it, that's one thing.
If he didn't, we have a question, which is "Why did he not know?"
People accept all kinds of risks in recreation or employment. But they're generally known risks.
Should, given the generally available information, Warmbier have known he was accepting a risk?
Richard Aubrey at June 21, 2017 6:07 AM
People accept all kinds of risks in recreation or employment. But they're generally known risks.
Should, given the generally available information, Warmbier have known he was accepting a risk?
Richard Aubrey at June 21, 2017 6:07 AM
His parents should have known.
There are reasonable risks that turn you into a statistic, like having the right of way in a intersection and getting t boned by a car running a red light.
Then there are those risks that should require a hundred hours of briefings, and signing liability away on a dozen different consent forms.
Things like climbing Mount Everest. And traveling to North Korea.
This country is so repressive and paranoid, that even those in power are struggling to stay alive catering to the whims of an insane dictator.
If you spit on the sidewalk in such a place, someone will get brownie points for turning you in.
And yet, by some accounts, this *tour company* turned it into a five day drinking binge, and billed it as a walk on the wild side.
Isab at June 21, 2017 7:15 AM
His parents should have known.
Isab at June 21, 2017 7:15 AM
Otto Warmbier was a 21 year-old young man.
Young, but a man.
Otto is not responsible for this outcome; his parents even less so.
Michelle at June 21, 2017 7:23 PM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axe_murder_incident
Otto Warmbier was a 21 year-old young man.
Young, but a man.
Otto is not responsible for this outcome; his parents even less so.
Michelle at June 21, 2017 7:23 PM
Really? You think he had a job, and was funding this trip on his own?
Adulthood isnt an age, it is a process. Some people never quite make it.
He discussed the trip with his parents, and they encouraged him.
There is a reason the US doesnt have an embassy in North Korea, and that there are travel warnings all over the state department web site.
That reason is..... wait for it.....
We dont have diplomatic relatiations with these crazy bastards, and the US government doesn't think Americans should be traveling there.
The fact that you can't get there from here should tell you a lot.
We have been in a state of war with North Korea since 1950.
The Korean War ended with an armistice not a peace treaty, and that war has gone hot on almost a monthly basis for the last 60 plus years.
This wasn't a lightening strike. Poor decisions were made, and then, apparently doubled down on.
Isab at June 21, 2017 8:29 PM
For those that think terrorism started in 2001, one of the North Korean's favorite ways to deal with captured American servicemen during the Korean war was to wrap them tightly in barbed wire, pour gasoline on them, and then set them on fire.
Isab at June 21, 2017 8:46 PM
Adulthood isnt an age, it is a process. Some people never quite make it.
Isab at June 21, 2017 8:29 PM
Poor choices are still choices, and the root of adulthood is in the agency - no age or law can grant that or take that away. The wisdom comes from experience, if the experiences don't kill you first.
To your point, my grandmother would have been the first to say that life's too short to make all your own mistakes; the travel warnings and other hazard flags were certainly there for the taking. I wouldn't have made a trip to North Korea, for all the reasons you detailed above.
That said, of all the US Citizens who've been to North Korea lately, how many are publicly known to have been killed by the government of North Korea?
His death was not a foregone conclusion. He did not kill himself. His parents are not to blame for his death either.
Michelle at June 21, 2017 8:50 PM
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