Feminist NeoVictorianism: Demanding That Women Be Treated Like Emotionally Fragile Toddlers
I take after my mother, and I try to -- except for the part about how she mercilessly takes on people she knows socially, no matter how ill-equipped they are to spar with her.
I forgot to mention that my mother is basically the Mohammed Ali of debating -- in the body of a tall, thin, redheaded Jewish lady.
A longtime friend of hers had to ask her to please never talk about politics around her again, because the friend (like many people) could not hold her own against my mom.
If you can't do as my mom do, what you can do is work to sharpen your reasoning and debating skills to at least improve a good deal.
The reality is, many people can improve in many areas, if they're just willing to work really hard at it.
Yet, check this out -- a woman named Summer Brennan pleading for men to infantilize women -- to treat them like 3-year-olds we let "win" at batting a balloon around.
Count me the fuck out.
Might be interesting to talk with her exes and ask how good Summer has been at not "femsplaining" to them and letting things go...
jerry at September 10, 2017 10:51 PM
I've had people ask me not to point out when they are wrong. My response it to tell them to not advertise they fact that they are wrong.
lujlp at September 11, 2017 12:06 AM
Woman says "2+2=5"
Man says "thats wrong"
Woman says "Only misogynists disagree with anything a woman says"
lujlp at September 11, 2017 12:12 AM
While I agree with Amy in general, it seems that people have gotten into a habit of debating/challenging things in excess as well. It is worth remembering that just because somebody says something wrong/mistaken/that we disagree with, we don't HAVE to reply every time.
I now hear, on an almost daily basis, people argue with statements like:
- I think Joe will like this one better.
- My favorite is X.
- I think X because Y.
These are the speaker's thoughts/feelings, but I hear them argued with (does the listener have some tap into the speaker's mind to know better?).
So, while Amy is right in general, I take the note that people (myself included) can back off the argument in general as well.
This is not, in my mind, a men/women thing. Anyway, women seem to be worse than men from my observations.
Shannon at September 11, 2017 5:11 AM
I don't CONTINUE arguing when it's unproductive (or do as my mother does and pick on the utterly unequipped), but this post is about something else.
If I make some statement and you challenge me on it, I frankly love it. I respect people whom, when shown evidence they're wrong, change their minds. I try to be one of them. I'm able to be more open-minded because I don't connect being wrong about things with being a loser or a failure. it's simply human.
Amy Alkon at September 11, 2017 5:49 AM
Shannon,
It is interesting to me that some of examples you provide are clearly subjective in nature.
There is an important difference between having an argument about subjective matters and objective ones.
That difference is that evidence only comes into play in the second of those scenarios.
What is there to actually argue about when someone says "My favorite is X"?... is someone actually going to convince them that it isn't really their favorite and that they like something else better?... how would one actually go about doing that anyway?
It is possible for 2 people to have different favorites and for them both to be correct when the matter is subjective.
That I happen to enjoy chocolate ice cream doesn't invalidate another persons enjoyment of vanilla or strawberry for example.
Objective items are fundamentally different because feelings and preferences do not matter. Then and only then does having a debate or discussion really mean anything because one can actually discuss facts and data when the topic involves something that can be or has been measured or tested.
Artemis at September 11, 2017 6:24 AM
I had a different take on Summer's suggestion. To paraphrase, whenever a woman says something stupid you just ignore her. To me that sounds incredibly disrespectful. You may as well retort 'Quiet dear, the adults are talking.'
As for her suggestion that men try this out, I have with both men and women. And boy does it piss them off.
Artemis, the problem is many people can't separate their subjective preferences from objective reality. Hence those who truly believe their enjoyment of vanilla does invalidate anyone else's preferences.
Ben at September 11, 2017 6:54 AM
Ben Says:
"Artemis, the problem is many people can't separate their subjective preferences from objective reality. Hence those who truly believe their enjoyment of vanilla does invalidate anyone else's preferences."
I completely agree with you, which is why whenever conversations such as these come up I always point out the difference.
Well-meaning people who appear to not fully grasp this will usually agree when it is pointed out.
This is also why it gets frustrating when you try to discuss an objective topic and others insist upon discussing their feelings... in that context feelings are irrelevant.
Artemis at September 11, 2017 8:08 AM
It does drive me crazy when I overhear conversations in which someone gets some detail about a form of entertainment wrong. I eventually learned to just keep my mouth shut if I am not directly involved in the discussion. However, I once worked in a small room with other employees. One of them was talking to another and was describing life on the farm where she lived. She said they had a peacock and it laid eggs. This caused my brain to have a complete meltdown and I screamed at her, "YOUR PEACOCK DID NOT LAY EGGS! PEACOCKS ARE MALE! THEY CANNOT LAY EGGS! IT'S THE PEAHEN THAT IS FEMALE AND LAYS EGGS!" The stunned looks on everyone's faces and silence that followed indicated that my quiet demeanor showed some obvious cracks. The farm employee admitted, yes, it was a peahen that laid the eggs.
Fayd at September 11, 2017 8:56 AM
Correcting people, male or female, even when they make REALLY silly mistakes, is still a delicate matter. It's all in how the correction is phrased - and in what tone of voice. In both cases, it has to be done non-condescendingly. Of course, it's also essential that if you're the one doing the correcting, that you really know what you're talking about.
In the meantime, speaking of women who think THEIR feelings are the only ones that matter...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-41053794
OK, so she doesn't know how to solve the problem. Doesn't give her the right to make the neighbors miserable - or act as though THEY'RE the ones who are being horribly rude and insensitive! (There was nothing wrong with the letter she received, from what I can see.)
lenona at September 11, 2017 9:41 AM
Summer Brennan - here's a suggestion for you. How about not telling men (or anyone else for matter) how to behave.
Try it for a day and see how it makes you feel.
charles at September 11, 2017 10:39 AM
The men I know love to debate. A few nights ago we were at a party debating where the hurricane in Florida would go, and many other topics. Loud, funny, back and forth. Women don't like such dynamics. Sorry but it is true. When have you seen a woman who could get in such a debate and not get their feelings hurt (besides Amy's mom of course, and Amy herself)?
cc at September 11, 2017 2:33 PM
One can be wrong about, for example, who won what on Jeopardy. Or about what that smell means. Or whether the juice is coming from the power company's line or from the generator.
To allow anybody to be wrong about something has results which differ by situation.
One might see passive-aggressive actions in allowing somebody to screw himself up because you did not correct an obvious error.
Richard Aubrey at September 11, 2017 7:48 PM
Here's another option for Summer:
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at September 11, 2017 11:14 PM
My ex-wife was the sort where she always had to be right and nothing was ever her fault - and she would argue like a lawyer until I admitted it. That's also known as narcissistic personality disorder (which she was later diagnosed with), and it is considered a legitimate mental illness.
Hey Summer...why don't you not encourage women to act like narcissists. Just. You know. For a lark.
Eric Plume at September 12, 2017 8:17 PM
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