"Is 'Weinsteining' Getting Out Of Hand?"
That's the headline on a Cathy Young op-ed I agree with in the LA Times:
The fallout from the Harvey Weinstein scandals and the ripples from the "#MeToo" movement are having indubitably positive effects -- above all, exposing and bringing to account predators who have enjoyed impunity due to their power and status. But there are some pitfalls. Many people -- not just men with skeletons in the closet -- fear that careers may be destroyed over minor misconduct and ambiguous transgressions. Troubling rhetoric abounds, condemning all sexually tinged dynamics in the workplace, stereotyping men as abusers and women as perpetual victims in need of quasi-Victorian protections....the #MeToo movement, which tends to lump together a wide range of male wrongdoing from rape to "creepy" or boorish behavior, raises a basic question about human relations in the working world: Can work and sexuality or romance ever mix? For many supporters of this campaign, the answer seems to be no.
Concerns that the post-Weinstein climate may lead to witch hunts against any man who flirts with a female colleague have been met with angry comments along the lines of "flirting in the workplace IS HARASSMENT." A tweet by singer/songwriter Marian Call that got more than 2,000 retweets and nearly 6,500 "likes" asked, "dudes are you aware how happy women would be if strangers & coworkers never 'flirted' with us again ... this is the world we want."
But is it? It's certainly not the world I want: Except in college, nearly every man I have ever dated was either a co-worker or, once I switched entirely to free-lancing, someone I met through work. This is not unusual, even in the age of dating websites and apps.
I've looked into this area before, for my column.
From a legal perspective, there are two kinds of harassment: quid pro quo harassment (have sex with me or lose your job, etc.) and hostile environment harassment. That second one, to hold up in court, needs to be "severe and pervasive" to the degree that it creates an abusive working environment. At this point, we've gone way overboard -- a colleague making a pass at you is now seen by many women as sexual harassment. It's not. If a person says no and the person pursuing them persists and persists, well, then the person they're pursuing is being harassed.
I think the current climate and misunderstanding of what sexual harassment is, per legal standards, infantilizes women and allows for men to be brought down on he said/she said accusations.
I think that's too dangerous. Sometimes, requiring proof before we fire people and yank their life away means the guilty will go free but it's more important that we do not bring down the innocent or those only "guilty" of flirtation.
These days, if my date says she is a feminist, I am tempted to run.
mpetrie98 at November 2, 2017 3:39 AM
It seems to me to be a pretty dour environment for a relationship. Gregg talks about dating feminists before me in sort of the demeanor and language one would talk about wartime experiences.
Amy Alkon at November 2, 2017 6:48 AM
My uncle married someone he met at work, as of course have millions of other people. The rule at many universities state that you may not date anyone at the school if you are a professor--but in a college town that means any unmarried professor must stay that way. The proper standard about sexual pressure due to a boss pursuing a subordinate or professor pursuing a student of his has been taken in many cases to the extreme that a prof can't date ANY student, even those not in his department, but that is nuts. It is a new victorianism. And then the ladies complain that they are still single at 35 and getting desperate. If you can't date at work and don't go to church and find online dating risky...what other option is there? Most people don't have a big network of single friends. You better get married in college, but people in college don't feel ready financially. I guess marriage is no longer an option.
cc at November 2, 2017 8:11 AM
The automatic firing of someone due to accusations has gone too far recently. Some of the accusations reflect a male merely making a pass, which is not harassment, or reflect bad sex or a slap on the butt (try going to Italy to see what pinching means). OR they are lies, but it seems to be assumed at the moment that no woman ever lies. Women are just as human as men and probably lie more about adverse sex feelings than men do. Men lie about their prowess, which is hardly the same thing. Men won't even admit the times that they are taken advantage of sexually by women, which happens.
cc at November 2, 2017 8:15 AM
Does this Jane Fonda rant about Hollywood Harvey and rich white women make any sense to you?
I'm chalking it up to age and, um, medication.
Also stupidity, racism, and sexism.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at November 2, 2017 8:26 AM
No, Ms. Fonda, I see it as progressive men getting treated the same way men are treated at institutions of higher learning. While I'm not at all happy to see this trajectory, I am happy to see that the same rules are being applied to everyone relatively equally.
The easiest way to get a bad rule or law revised is to enforce it zealously against all comers. And that moves much faster if you enforce it particularly zealously against Important People.
Will it get worse before it gets better? why yes, yes it will. So be professional, be polite, and have a plan to run away at the first sign of trouble.
I R A Darth Aggie at November 2, 2017 8:57 AM
I like Marian Calls music, but her dating advice is all wrong. The theme of "something fierce/Dear Mr Darcy" is pretty much she drops hints on a guy and how dare he not pounce on her because deep down she is fierce.
Relationships that started at work have historically been some of the longest lasting and strongest ones, for obvious reasons. You have some common interests/goals/experiences why you are working for the same company. You have seen each other on good days and bad days. The meat market is 90% about looks, confidence, bad lighting and alcohol.
As to the Weinsteining, I believe very little that comes out of Hollywood,a place built on people whose profession is to lie convincingly, manipulate emotions, and a desire for fans and praise. Just the right timing, just the right words (here's the script), can I get a tear down one cheek. Action.
Joe j at November 2, 2017 9:16 AM
I think part of these women's problems with men flirting with them or asking them out at work is that it mortally offends them that someone they see as unworthy to date would actually think he had a shot with them. I worked with a woman who was extremely upset that a male co-worker asked her out because he was clearly so gross how could he imagine someone like her would go out with someone like him. It upset her for days. It damaged her vision of herself and what she felt she deserved. But realistically he wasn't that horrid and she wasn't that fantastic. The flirting and dating is never a problem for these women when it's with someone they deem worthy.
Fink-Nottle at November 2, 2017 10:15 AM
Fink-Nottle, if that happens frequently later than high school, I'll be a bit surprised. That is, I can imagine a teen girl thinking "what will happen if all the nasty kids here find out HE asked me out?! I'll never hear the end of it! No one better will ask me out, as a result!"
If she's 25, I would expect her to think more along the lines of "oh, he must be either very horny or very crazy about me. Too bad for him."
lenona at November 2, 2017 10:27 AM
"Fink-Nottle, if that happens frequently later than high school, I'll be a bit surprised."
lenona appears to have conceded that she is not a keen observer of the modern adult female, or single men in the dating mode, (esp. a socially- and aesthetically-challenged one).
bkmale at November 2, 2017 11:10 AM
Do I have to spell everything out? I meant percentage-wise.
lenona at November 2, 2017 11:20 AM
It wasn't all that long ago that, at work, there was a lot of 1-on-1 lunches and meetings between men and women, and a lot of senior men mentoring women and vice versa. That's all gone now. There are only three women where I work that I will trust to go out to lunch with, unless it's in a large group. With all other women in the office, all interactions are strictly business. I don't ask about family; I don't ask about kids, or house, or anything that is not work related. I don't compliment their appearance, and I neither praise nor criticize their work to their faces. Evaluating and advancing their work is their supervisor's problem. It's not my problem. I don't offer advice or assistance unless my management instructs me to.
Workplaces are eliminating conference room spaces. We have only a few conference rooms here, and the largest one is reserved for management and command use, and not schedulable by us peons. I am careful about who I go into an office or conference room with.
A lot of people will point at the legal standards for sexual harassment and tell you that as long as you behave reasonably, you have nothing to worry about. The big problem with that is that employers aren't bound to the legal standard, and neither is social media. Employers will err on the side of whatever policy the government prefers, and the government's preferred policy is that scalps need to be collected. And of course social media has no standards or accountability at all.
I've had the experience of a career-ender at a company I worked at, because of a third-party complaint by a female co-worker who eavesdropped at a closed door on a frank conversation between myself and a male co-worker, concerning some people we were having to deal with on our program. She didn't like something we said about another woman in the industry, who had done something rather inappropriate at a working dinner the previous week. This woman we were discussing was not an employee of our company, nor was she someone that we did business with, nor was she known to the complainant. But we were hauled in just the same. I was instructed that no defense was possible and given an unpaid suspension. When I came back, it became clear that my career at that company was over.
I've recovered from this because I'm in an in-demand profession; because social media was not a thing when all of this happened, and because when the complainant levered her way a promotion thanks to her actions, it quickly became apparent that she was not competent to hold that position. I was able to leave the company and get what turned out to be a much better job. But I wonder how many men (and some women too) who find themselves in the same position are not so fortunate.
Cousin Dave at November 2, 2017 2:22 PM
Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the pedophiles of Harveywood:
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2017/11/02/here-we-go-corey-feldman-reveals-name-of-actor-who-allegedly-molested-him-video/
The dam, she is starting to crumble, n'est-ce pas?
I R A Darth Aggie at November 2, 2017 2:27 PM
If she's 25, I would expect her to think more along the lines
And suddenly, the problem comes into focus. Just because that's they way you behave does not mean that every woman on the planet behaves the same way.
I R A Darth Aggie at November 2, 2017 2:35 PM
"If she's 25, I would expect her to think more along the lines"
You know what they say 35 is the new 25.
Joe j at November 2, 2017 6:39 PM
Meanwhile, we laugh at you. We have no idea how you cannot see that this is a symptom of decline, that your country is finished by your own hand.
You're giving it away.
While you worry about whether that mean man will say something gross, your counterpart overseas is making product. Sex is only sex in her country - not the most important thing in the world. Her boss will own you soon.
Immigrant at November 2, 2017 6:43 PM
"Meanwhile, we laugh at you."
Good for you! Soon you'll be using soap and choosing your own spouses. You've come so far. We're VERY proud.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at November 2, 2017 8:38 PM
I think part of these women's problems with men flirting with them or asking them out at work is that it mortally offends them that someone they see as unworthy to date would actually think he had a shot with them.
I've blogged and tweeted about this. I think this is often the case when women are offended that someone asked them out.
Gog, i love you.
Amy Alkon at November 2, 2017 9:34 PM
"Making a pass"?
Isab is the one to speak to this, but technically any unwanted physical contact that a reasonable person would find offensive is battery. For legal purposes, battery is usually physical contact that results in bodily injury, but it doesn't have to be.
Yes, to qualify as harassment, the offending behaviors must be repeated, so a one-time instance of anything cannot be harassment.
Battery and sexual assault, however, is another matter entirely. Once is all it takes. I would suggest that if people insist on making amorous advances in the workplace (which is a stupid thing to do because if the relationship goes south, you're still stuck working with each other), you do it without any physical contact.
Patrick at November 3, 2017 1:31 AM
"Isab is the one to speak to this, but technically any unwanted physical contact that a reasonable person would find offensive is battery. For legal purposes, battery is usually physical contact that results in bodily injury, but it doesn't have to be."
The tough part of any criminal or civil statute is proving it in court. In the absence of *real injury*, It always becomes a case of he said, she said, and there are no damages so what do you win by taking it to court in the first place?
Consent or lack thereof is the biggest hill evidence wise in any acquaintence rape or unwanted physical contact.
Case in point. Michelle Fields
This is why I believe almost all but the most egregious cases of claimed sexual harassment are losers in court, and probably also with HR unless they are looking for a pretext to can a guy to begin with.
Isab at November 3, 2017 2:58 AM
> Immigrant at November 2, 2017 6:43 PM
That's weird.
Crid at November 3, 2017 3:54 AM
"that a reasonable person would find offensive is battery."
Reminds me of the first presentation from HR on such things. The problem is there is no such thing as a reasonable person, since men's and women's ideas on what is reasonable is so different. The example they gave was a woman in an office and the man leaning against the door talking to her. The men saw nothing possible wrong, women saw it as he is blocking the only exit.
Joe J at November 3, 2017 9:01 AM
"Gog, i love you."
Aw, shucks.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at November 3, 2017 9:08 AM
Darth, you didn't see my last comment, did you?
lenona at November 3, 2017 9:27 AM
"If she's 25, I would expect her to think more along the lines of "oh, he must be either very horny or very crazy about me. Too bad for him." "
Yeah, not so much. Maybe once she hits 40+ that might be the reaction. Percentage wise, its whatever they think they can get away with at HR or in their industry. Look up Dongle-gate if you missed that one.
Think the weinstein stuff is a witch hunt and over reaction? After years of sit-coms, dramas, movies, etc. promoting the feminist hysteria, I care not one whit now about over reactions. Its LONG LONG overdue for those lying pervs.
To quote the old SNL skit on sexual harrassment
Rule #1 Be attractive.
Rule#2 Don't be unattractive.
Rule #3 Be attractive.
Sio at November 3, 2017 11:03 AM
Percentage wise, its whatever they think they can get away with
___________________________________
Got some REAL stats on that one?
______________________________________
Think the weinstein stuff is a witch hunt and over reaction? After years of sit-coms, dramas, movies, etc. promoting the feminist hysteria, I care not one whit now about over reactions. Its LONG LONG overdue for those lying pervs.
______________________________________
Um, I think you need to re-write that paragraph - you seem to be on both sides. It's very confusing.
Btw, plenty of people have pointed out that that old SNL skit is misleading. To get back to Weinstein, he could no doubt have dazzled - and seduced - any number of women with POLITE attention, simply by being famous, rich and powerful. (Just as Bill Cosby clearly didn't want consensual sex with anyone he raped - celebs like him are not lacking in sex.) However, most women do NOT want to accept a date with anyone, handsome/rich or not, who says hello by grabbing their breasts - unless maybe they're financially desperate. Otherwise, any fool knows she's not going to have a good time in the long run, with such a jerk.
Not to mention that being asked out by ANYONE at work, nerdy or not, can trigger alarm bells, simply because if an affair doesn't work out, the work situation will feel a lot worse. Not that that's an excuse for her calling HR, of course. I doubt that would happen if he asks politely, but if he's worried, he can find other ways to win her over, maybe by finding excuses to work together and talk about subjects that are not personal or controversial - nothing even semi-political, of course!
lenona at November 3, 2017 2:00 PM
Umm. No Lenona. Just plain no. The SNL skit isn't misleading. It is apt. Those are the corporate rules for sexual harassment. Anything a woman likes is ok. Anything they don't like is not ok. Simple as that. That is the objective standard.
"I doubt that would happen if he asks politely, but if he's worried, he can find other ways to win her over ..."
No. Just plain no. By the time you say anything it is too late. It cannot be taken back. The man is alway at fault. And people do not have the ability to read minds. You essentially quoted the SNL skit rules. Ask in a way she prefers. Except that is a problem with insufficient information. It requires mind reading. So no. This doesn't work.
Ben at November 4, 2017 8:03 AM
Ask in a way she prefers.
____________________________________
I never said a co-worker SHOULD ask someone out, in so many words, for obviously non-work-related reasons. Jeez, of course that's going to feel somewhat creepy, regardless of who is who. It's just that since office relations are probably even MORE delicate than between kids in the same high school, who are free to date, often the only thing to do is find ways to work with people, to Be Charming, and get to know them, while acting as though dating is the last thing on your mind. As Miss Manners put it (true, she wasn't talking about dating at work, but the principles still make sense AND are more subtle than Fred Armisen's character was):
Q: "How should you act during the beginning stages of courtship?"
A: "With great reserve. Cheerful friendliness, along with the vaguest of looks that suggests one’s feelings could grow, is the standard at which to aim. Uncertainty and ambiguity are as exciting in courtship as they are tedious in marriage. Pushy tactics are self-defeating. The real skill in courtship is to be able to play just slightly more slowly than one’s partner."
And, as she said in a similar column (to a teen girl):
"Your task is to make him less certain, not more, about how deeply you care, until such time as you are led to believe that your feelings are reciprocated. Miss Manners is not telling you this because you are a girl who should be ladylike. She would advise all boys, girls, women, and men to put some ambiguity into their behavior in the early stages of courtship. For reasons she does not pretend to understand, the obvious adoration of someone to whom you have not already been forming your own feeling of love produces distaste, rather than reciprocation."
And may I add that when it comes to dating people who are not coworkers, no matter how rich, smart, witty, slim, and well-groomed they might be, one thing that is always going to turn me off is a lack of sexual subtlety, whether in words or gestures. It's VERY anti-romantic. Also, I consider fancy restaurants to be a waste of money, so no, that wouldn't make up for a man's saying anything like "ok, to be honest, I'm looking primarily for a sexual relationship." Anyone can guess that, after all. If he believes in saving sex for marriage, all he has to do is say he's a social conservative, at some point - and elaborate if asked. In the meantime, the least SHE can do is take turns paying for dates if she wants to keep seeing him.
lenona at November 5, 2017 4:07 PM
Once again you are showing off your ignorance. Nothing you've written is on topic. It is all fine and dandy for general dating advice. But in office interactions sexual harassment is clearly defined as anything a woman doesn't like. There is no debate on this point. The only pushback is if the woman is filing too many harassment claims. At that point management decides she is more trouble than she is worth and will find some pretext to get rid of her. Outside of that the man is always at fault and an accusations is as good as a guilty verdict.
Which is why the SNL skit is so apt. As long as she doesn't complain then there is no problem. If she does complain there is a big problem. That is the only standard of behavior. Hence:
Rule #1 Be attractive.
Rule #2 Don't be unattractive.
Rule #3 Be attractive.
Ben at November 6, 2017 4:28 AM
How do you define harassment?
The problem is many supposed victims want a subjective test.
recall the Amhest rape where the girl gave a passed out boy a BJ but he was suspended for raping her, because even though he was passed out drunk to the point she had to undress him, she felt unsafe and compelled to continue even though she didnt want to continue
Case in point, my first experience with work place harassment
I worked at a call center, my cube had four desks; me, pretty boy, barbie, and quite a lot less than barbie.
Less Than had seniority on all us by a few years, me PB & B were all high school students working our first 'real' job
LT liked putting her hands all over PB, who did not enjoy it. PB and B hit it off and started dating and spent their lunch breaks making out
LT had PB fired because his sexual acts towards B made her feel harassed
So the guy minding his own business who was in fact the victim of harassment was fired because he pissed off Less Than when he picked Baribe over her
lujlp at November 6, 2017 8:25 AM
Am I supposed to believe that Weinstein's behavior would have been welcomed by most of the women he targeted had he only been more physically attractive?
I get the impression he wasn't exactly ugly, when younger...not to mention being rich and powerful.
Let's not forget that SNL - and the media - just love to focus on the worst-behaving women, real or fictional. Doesn't prove they're the norm.
lenona at November 7, 2017 11:43 AM
Given how many didnt bother to sue but took the roles I'd hazard a guess that most women did accept his advances his looks be damned
lujlp at November 7, 2017 6:02 PM
The average actress can't afford to sue. That's "average," as in "not exactly famous."
Or, as Pollitt wrote last year: "If women are being harassed at work, they usually can't afford to flounce out of the room in high Victorian dudgeon."
lenona at November 8, 2017 3:41 PM
Neither can men for that matter
lujlp at November 8, 2017 9:13 PM
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