The Authoritarian Twisties -- Never Knowing Which Way You'll Be Ordered To Live
It's hard to know which way you're supposed to bend over for the well-meaning authoritarians.
In California, "affirmative consent" demands that you must look for (and ask, to be safe) for explicit consent -- awkward and unsexy -- every time you want to make some different kind of sex move. (Note -- important for later in this blog post -- that does mean that women are allowed to say no.)
Here, from a Cathy Young piece, is California's "Yes Means Yes" law -- for California college students:
"Affirmative consent" means affirmative, conscious, and voluntary agreement to engage in sexual activity. ... Lack of protest or resistance does not mean consent, nor does silence mean consent.
Cathy explains:
SB967 requires colleges and universities to evaluate disciplinary charges of sexual assault under an "affirmative consent" standard as a condition of qualifying for state funds.
But for Utah sixth graders, things are a little different. There, writes Sarah Young in the Independent, girls must say yes if boys ask them to dance at a school shindig. That's right. Girls get no say in whether they dance with a boy:
Natalie Richard, from Utah, was speaking to her sixth-grade daughter about the upcoming Valentine's Day dance at her school, Kanesville Elementary, when she was told about the controversial rule.Her daughter explained that teachers had told the students, aged between 11 and 12, that they had to say "yes" when someone asked them dance.
In disbelief, Ms Richard said that she must have misunderstood what they were saying.
However, after speaking to the school she soon realised that the statement was accurate.
"The teacher said she can't. She has to say yes. She has to accept and I said, 'Excuse me'," Ms Richard told Fox 13.
Shocked by the policy, the mother took her concerns to the school principal but was simply told that that's just how they organise their dances.
Lane Findlay with the Weber School District confirmed that it is in fact a rule, but added that it's meant to teach students how to be inclusive.
Yes, in Utah, it's "must consent" -- teaching girls that they get no agency, no choice. All in the name of "inclusiveness."
This reminds me of the mistaken notion that having good manners just means sucking it up when you're abused. Um, no. That's agreeing to be a victim -- and I suggest you have none of that.
That doesn't necessarily mean you let somebody shape who you are -- that you go as ugly as they do. But it means you don't just go silently and acquiescently when somebody tries to push you around.
Personally, I like to go badass on at least some of these occasions, if not most.
Little girls should be taught that they get to choose what they do and with whom.
The idiot administrators who think they're teaching kindness should be fired immediately.
And lets not forget when Aziz Ansari asked for verbal consent to a blow job he was still considered a rapist
lujlp at February 12, 2018 11:28 PM
I commend to you Young's memoir.
Crid at February 12, 2018 11:46 PM
I'm curious what the punishment would be if Suzie or MykKaylah said "No" and defied the holy gods of Inclusivity.
Kevin at February 13, 2018 12:15 AM
I think you all forget what sixth-grade dances are like. No sixth-grade boy in his right mind wants to ask a girl to dance. Nor does he want to dance with a girl. Girls are still pretty icky to 6th-grade boys.
It will be the girls asking the boys to dance and the boys that have to say yes.
A stupid rule, still, but it's not oppression of girls, it's of boys.
And what I think is stupid is having 6th-grade dances. There are tons of other activities that both girls and boys would enjoy. Why must we push youngsters toward a "romantic" activity?
Suzanne Lucas at February 13, 2018 12:56 AM
> Girls are still pretty icky
> to 6th-grade boys.
Naw, we all secretly dug 'em. By that age you've read enough or seen enough or talked about it enough to realize that girls were going to have all the beauty. And those boobies were going to be useful for something, even if you weren't yet sure what during those last elementary-school summers.
The dances put it all in the context of the rest of life, where we were always told (and would soon see for ourselves) that you can achieve most of your success by handling the mechanical bits with mechanized proficiency, and leaves the brilliance and insight and inspiration and innovation to (probably) take care of themselves. How many times in life do we hear something like '90% of the battle is just showing up'? For a kid, a kid's dance is a fine thing to show up for. So is the SAT, even if it isn't as meaningful as a dissertation defense.
Not icky, terrifying. The summary of all the quickly-accruing awareness was that girls were going have all sorts of powers to humiliate and make misery.
Crid at February 13, 2018 1:52 AM
Thanks, Crid -- done: "Growing Up in Moscow: Memories of a Soviet Girlhood will be shipped to Amy Alkon..."
Didn't know about this -- very interested in Russia and what her experience was.
Amy Alkon at February 13, 2018 4:53 AM
Suzanne, I think you're absolutely right -- that it's idiotic to have 6th grade dances.
You're realistic about this (having kids) in a way I wasn't, merely having memories of being in 6th grade (unpleasant memories, because I had a not-fun childhood).
PS Good question, Kevin. (What if somebody says no?)
Amy Alkon at February 13, 2018 4:55 AM
Oh, Suzanne. You're the bomb but I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one.
Regardless of the social dynamics of the 6th grade (I know I was pretty interested in girls by then, even though I didn't get comfortable asking them to dance until - well, I'm still not), a rule that forces girls to acquiesce to an activity they aren't freely consenting to is a terrible precedent to set.
It's especially terrible in a predominantly LDS community, which is barely starting to realize, much less come to grips with, its own larger issues of consent and abuse. "Smile and be nice to the man, honey" is classic 1950s advice, and not the sort of thing I want my daughters subject to. I would tell my kids that they are perfectly free to politely say "No thank you," and cordially invite school administrators to see me in hell or on court if they didn't like it.
Grey Ghost at February 13, 2018 5:45 AM
I'm curious what the punishment would be if Suzie or MykKaylah said "No" and defied the holy gods of Inclusivity.
What if somebody says no?
Well, it's considered heresy in some quarters if you turn down a transexaul womyn if you're a lesbian or straight man.
I R A Darth Aggie at February 13, 2018 5:58 AM
I get where it is coming from. You don't want everyone saying no to one kid, or only one girl getting asked, and others not at all. Like that's a huge load of crap to deal with as a teacher.
It's like in gym class, where kids pick teams, you don't want kids to shriek out "No, I don't want to be on Aiden's team!"
That said, dancing is a bit more intimate than a game of soccer. Maybe schools should stick to group dances. Or not stick to boy-girl partners, have everyone learn both to lead and follow.
NicoleK at February 13, 2018 6:01 AM
Nor does he want to dance with a girl. Girls are still pretty icky to 6th-grade boys.
Really? I know of younger boys who have multiple "girl friends", so unless things change between then and 6th grade, they'll still have multiple girl friends. Maybe it does, I don't know.
I R A Darth Aggie at February 13, 2018 6:02 AM
I thought classic good manners, though, was you could say no but then you had to sit that dance out.
NicoleK at February 13, 2018 6:04 AM
So, it's open season on non-college women in California?
Conan the Grammarian at February 13, 2018 6:08 AM
What about the girls that don't get asked? No one's said. That's hardly inclusive.
iowaan at February 13, 2018 6:20 AM
"I get where it is coming from. You don't want everyone saying no to one kid, or only one girl getting asked, and others not at all. Like that's a huge load of crap to deal with as a teacher."
I see the problem that they are trying to solve. From personal experience at that age, I can tell you that (1) a lot of the boys will only ask the prettiest girls, and (2) most of the girls will turn down all but the one or two boys that they want to dance with. The result is that most of the boys, and some of the girls, don't get any dances. (And maybe it doesn't hurt to teach them that in the real world of the United States today, freedom of association doesn't actually exist, regardless of what that First Amendment thing says.) It does seem like the right way to address this would be to make out dance cards for all of the students. This way, everyone gets a few dances.
(Whine: I was one of those boys who got turned down most of the time. The last dance I went to was in the 8th grade. The next time I had an opportunity to dance seriously with a woman, I was 40 years old.)
"I thought classic good manners, though, was you could say no but then you had to sit that dance out."
It's really not even so much an etiquette thing as it is a don't-do-stupid-stuff thing. It is well known that the women all know who the guys are that only ask the pretty young things for dances, or that are "handsy". Women have ways of avoiding these men, up to and including turning them down outright. (Although most of the time, they will employ subtler tactics.)
Well, men spread words around too. If a woman often turns down a dance with some excuse, and then dances that same song with someone else, eventually the men notice what is going on. If it continues, men will stop asking that woman, and pretty soon she'll find that she's not getting any dances any more. The same thing happens to women who are known to be rude to their partners, or who consistently try to back-lead.
Cousin Dave at February 13, 2018 6:36 AM
As for the other half of the topic: The feminists have already moved beyond "yes means yes" to what they really want it to be: "yes means yes except when it means no". Feminist writers have been explicit that a heterosexual man risks a rape charge for every single sexual encounter he participates in, whether the woman consents or not. There are so many disqualifiers for consent that actually getting, and proving, informed consent is impossible. And the laws, as they want them structured, will place the burden of proof on the accused.
Cousin Dave at February 13, 2018 6:48 AM
@iowaan: What about the girls that don't get asked? No one's said. That's hardly inclusive.
My middle daughter told me that at her 8th grade farewell dance, people danced mostly in large groups. Maybe it varies, region to region, school to school. But at her dance, she bounced around with the (mostly) girls at her table.
After a while, they noticed one girl at a table by herself. She was one of the "developmentally challenged" kids, and she really didn't have anyone to hang out with. They invited the girl to join their group, where she spent the rest of the event, dancing and laughing.
The next day, one of the teachers told my daughter what the little girl's mother had told her: her daughter had the time of her life that evening.
Maybe that's the kind of inclusiveness we should be encouraging, not dictating how little boys and girls pair up.
Old RPM Daddy (OldRPMDaddy at GMail dot com) at February 13, 2018 9:16 AM
"I thought classic good manners, though, was you could say no but then you had to sit that dance out."
It's really not even so much an etiquette thing as it is a don't-do-stupid-stuff thing ...
Well, men spread words around too. If a woman often turns down a dance with some excuse,...
Can confirm. The sit-out-if-you-turn-someone-down guideline still exists, but, as Cousin Dave says, it's more of a "consequences" thing, naturally enforced by the community.
I'll be damned if I have to sit out my favorite song just because Sweaty Grope-Monster asked me first. But I also make it a point to say yes to ... well ... pretty everyone else. And I only use the "I'm tired" excuse when I'm actually tired and plan to sit out the song (and then find that same guy and ask him to dance later). Sweaty Grope-Monster gets a firm, deadpan "No thank you."
A lot of women use the "I'm tired" excuse on any guy they don't think is hot enough, but jump out their seat if someone they like asks them. And, soon, fewer and fewer men ask them to dance. Because those awkward new guys blossom into fantastic dancers. And they remember.
sofar at February 13, 2018 10:28 AM
"Because those awkward new guys blossom into fantastic dancers. And they remember."
It applies to all dancers: Be careful who you diss today. A few years from now, they may be better than you.
And yeah, if a woman asks me for one (doesn't happen often, but now and then), I don't say no unless I've either already promised it to someone else, or it was a dance I wan't going to do anyway (don't know that dance, need to use the restroom, blister, just danced a three-minute Viennese waltz, etc.) There are only two women in the world that I won't dance with: one is a notorious and brutal back-leader, and the other is consistently rude to her partners.
Cousin Dave at February 13, 2018 11:04 AM
This is a rare occasion where you have gotten it wrong, Amy.
This is not a high school "dating" type dance. This is for grade school kids, and operates as a cotillion for the kids -- a well-organized social event that teaches social graces and etiquette.
For the same reason that women (but not men) had dance cards, potential conflict and social cohesion and manners are taught by saying "yes" to a new partner -- and by waiting your turn for your preferred partner. No one is forcing anyone to do anything. If you don't want to dance, don't go to the dance!
By the way, girls who didn't have boys signing up on their dance cards is where the term "wallflower" comes from.
Jay R at February 13, 2018 1:02 PM
Ooops!
Should be: "potential conflict is avoided"
Jay R at February 13, 2018 1:05 PM
I think it depends on the age of the sixth-grader. Ten years old? nope, they don't care. But eleven? They start to find out that girls have an irrestible Je ne sais quoi.
Sixclaws at February 13, 2018 3:23 PM
I must have gone to odd schools. We didn't have school dances till 10th or 11th grade. in 6th grade we did have teaching folk dances in some class or other. Polka, Italian, others but that was a class not a real dance. So if there was an asking to dance it was a formal asking where neither really wanted to do it. Saying no probably wasn't an option nor was choice of partners.
Joe j at February 13, 2018 3:25 PM
I already mentioned this in the Minkey thread. Ask and ye shall receive, Kevin. From the Independent article on it:
Comment:
Utjazzfan45
1 day ago
"This is sadly true, I live in Utah, someone I knew even got suspended for saying 'no thank you' a few years back. IN SIXTH GRADE, it’s not ok."
And, no, it's NOT just the girls who are under pressure that way.
https://kaplanherald.com/2018/02/12/women-should-say-sure-if-a-boy-asks-to-bop-mom-says-it-sends-a-nasty-message/
“Students are also told by their teacher that if a classmate asks to be on their card, they should be polite and respectful, and agree to dance with that person,” the school said. “This applies to all students regardless of gender.”
_____________________________________
To me, there's a difference between saying "you can't say you can't play" and applying that to dancing. Or dating.
And if the teachers don't want the unpopular boys and girls to go danceless (commendable), maybe the TEACHERS should do the pairing, just as some gym teachers choose the teams instead of letting the kids do that. That's what one boarding school always did at prom time. If you were already in a couple and the two of you wanted to go together, you had to say so in advance to the teachers. But, even if you didn't have a date beforehand, you would always have someone to have supper with and dance the first dance with. After that, you were free to mingle as you pleased.
lenona at February 13, 2018 4:32 PM
I thought classic good manners, though, was you could say no but then you had to sit that dance out.
_________________________________________
I believe it was - and that it goes back to Jane Austen.
What's puzzling is that Miss Manners seemed to have conflicting rules on what a girl should do after she'd turned down the FIRST invitation to the dance night itself!
(Warning: I turned this into a long thread, but there are a lot of juicy comments):
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2016/10/18/link-a-roni.html
Excerpts:
From 2012:
DEAR MISS MANNERS: Is it acceptable for a girl to decline an invitation to a dance, only to later accept another invitation to the same dance? This is for a high school dance or prom.
GENTLE READER: If you are the parent of a young gentleman to whom this has been done, Miss Manners can confirm that the young lady is indeed rude, and that however crushed your son is, he is better off. She would be capable of committing another rudeness, such as breaking the date later.
If you are the parent of a young lady who proposes to do this, it is still rude, but Miss Manners has more to say.
You should tell your daughter that as the idea is to avoid hurting the young gentleman’s feelings, in theory, she should be able to do this if he would never find out. Then ask her how she would decline without being unkind or untruthful. And remind her that there are no secrets in high school.
There is another lesson you might give, even though she will not believe it. That is that some law of nature makes the least popular boy in high school into the most desirable man later in life, yet, no matter how successful and glamorous he has become, makes him remember and continue to smart from having been slighted.
(end)
____________________________________
Before that, in the thread, there was a 2016 letter to Carolyn Hax about a mother of a son who agreed with that idea and was upset that a girl who turned him down had the gall to go the dance! The mother even confronted the girl's stepmother!
BUT...from April 2010 (also in the above thread):
________________________________________
Dear Miss Manners: My freshman daughter in high school has received several offers to the homecoming dance. She said yes to the first offer, although she knew another boy she liked (and we did, too) had attempted to contact her.
She said she didn't realize the conversation with the first boy would end in an invitation, and she didn't want to hurt him. We know this boy's family and agree that it would be best to go on the date she has accepted.
This situation might come up again. Would you have advice on how to decline an invitation to the school dance, which I think is different from a regular date because everyone wants to go?
If you say no to a potential date, does etiquette mean you should not go at all? My only advice was "don't answer the phone three weeks before a dance and only call back the boy you want."
There are a lot of limitations with this advice. This is a situation in which I think it is hard to juggle getting what you want with being kind.
Is 14 too old for her to say, "I have to ask my parents first"? This still doesn't help because we wouldn't want to hurt a boy's feelings just to wait for another offer.
Gentle Reader: Your daughter is not too young to learn how to say no to someone who admires her. It will save you, as well as her, a lot of grief later.
And although Miss Manners commends your and her desire to avoid hurting anyone's feelings, you both need to recognize that not all hurt feelings can be avoided.
Hurting someone's feelings by making it clear that the young lady is waiting for a better offer would indeed be bad. But everyone, even a vulnerable young gentleman in high school, has to learn to deal with whatever hurt is felt if an invitation is declined or a romantic impulse unrequited.
The chief way to avoid rudeness when declining is not to give any excuse. This is also a way to avoid easily detected falsehoods. She need only say, "You're so nice to ask me, but I'm afraid I can't."
If the petitioner's mother has not taught him the danger, as well as the rudeness, of asking why not, she should say merely, "I'm sorry, but I have other plans." Even if the other plans are to wait for a more desirable young gentleman to ask.
(end)
_________________________________
So...unless there was an unforgivable editing error in the 2012 column, why did MM change her mind?!
Finally, here's what I said, early on, in the thread:
I can only hope that, since MM calls herself a feminist, she would apply the same rule to boys who were asked out by girls and refused the invitations. I don't know whether it also applies to adult women and Saturday night dates that don't involve dancing. Obviously, it's ALWAYS rude to accept the first invitation only to break it off in favor of a second invitation - but we're not talking about that here.
But the (2012) rule makes no sense to me, even though some people today agree with MM. After all, aren't even TODDLERS supposed to learn to deal with crushing disappointments on a daily basis, never mind older kids? What's the difference? Besides, what gives the boy the right to ask out a second girl if the first girl refuses him, since the second' girl's feelings would ALSO be hurt when she finds out she wasn't the first one asked? Not to mention - why in the world should ANYONE have to stay at home just because he/she was unlucky enough to be asked out first by someone who's a borderline criminal or someone who never bathes and has the creepy personality to go with such habits? Again, don't awful young people NEED to experience rejection and change themselves if they want to become more popular?
lenona at February 13, 2018 4:44 PM
Oh, and Amy, the school said that that's been the rule for years, so in Utah, it's likely not about being politically correct, even if the rule applies to both sexes.
And regarding my suggested solution that kids not be the ones to do the asking, Ann Landers just might have agreed - it's from 1989:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/why-wasn-t-daughter-asked-to-dance-ann-mom-differ/article_d1224097-85ce-5518-8941-43a37d7eba05.html
DEAR ANN LANDERS: I am the mother of three children. My oldest is a 12-year-old girl who just entered junior high. "Lucille" has always been shy about participating in social activities, so I was pleased when she agreed to go to the junior high school dance. Unfortunately, she didn't have a date and none of her girlfriends wanted to go, so I drove her to the auditorium and dropped her off. She looked adorable in her new dress. I was really proud of her.
Two hours later I drove back to the school to pick her up. She was in tears. Not one boy had asked her to dance. She said she approached several boys she knew, and they all turned her down.
I'm aware that seventh-grade boys are very immature, Ann, but wasn't it rude of them to refuse? I am truly upset that my child's feelings were hurt by boys who were never taught manners.
Please print this letter so the parents of youngsters (particularly in the Bay Area) will see this. - San Francisco Mom
Dear Mom: I know dances for 12-year-olds have been going on for a long time, but I still think it's nutty.
These kids aren't ready for boy-girl dances, and I can't understand why schools would sponsor such events. It's ridiculous to shove youngsters into adult activities.
The boys who turned your daughter down may not have been rude, just shy. Please do Lucille a favor and stop pushing her to do things she's not ready for. Growing up is tough enough without being pressured by Mom.
lenona at February 13, 2018 4:57 PM
Update!
http://pix11.com/2018/02/13/school-changes-policy-after-uproar-for-telling-girls-they-cant-say-no-if-a-boy-asks-them-to-dance/
...The Weber School District got the message, too. In a statement sent to CNN Monday night, community relations specialist Lane Findlay said the instructions for the dance have been changed.
According to the statement, attendance at the dance has typically been “voluntary but encouraged.” Students are asked to fill out a dance card with names of classmates they’d like to dance with. Half the dancer selections are the girl’s choice and the other half are the boy’s choice, and students can’t dance with the same person more than once.
But now students will be free to say no.
“In the best interest of our students, we are re-examining the procedures surrounding these dances and will make any necessary changes to promote a positive environment where all students feel included and empowered in their choices,” the statement said.
“We have advised our schools to eliminate any sort of language in the instructions surrounding these dances that would suggest a student must dance with another student.”...
lenona at February 13, 2018 5:07 PM
" . . . it's meant to teach students how to be inclusive."
No, teaching someone they MUST do something so one-on-one with someone else is NOT teaching them how to be inclusive. I find it somewhat creepy.
Now, on the other hand, if a student brought in cupcakes to share with the class then they must be inclusive and bring enough to share with everyone in the class. No playing favorites with that in 5th grade.
Oh wait! No bringing in food because that might leave someone out who has a food allergy. Nevermind!
charles at February 13, 2018 6:15 PM
Regarding this horrible dance idea, the solution is simple. Boycott the school's dance and have your own. I'm sure such an event could be easily funded if enough parents object to this policy.
Patrick at February 13, 2018 8:47 PM
> classic good manners, though, was
> you could say no but then you had
> to sit that dance out
Modernity is better
Crid at February 14, 2018 1:59 AM
Now send them into the workplace untrained in how to reject an unwanted advance and put them side-by-side with men who have learned that asking once is all that's required.
Brilliant.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at February 14, 2018 12:05 PM
"Oh wait! No bringing in food because that might leave someone out who has a food allergy. Nevermind!"
I got hit with this in preschool. We are required to bring in snacks every few weeks but there are all kinds of rules they won't tell us. You can't bring in anything anyone could possibly have an allergy to. So no peanut butter celery. But your snack has to be healthy so no prepackaged goods or candies. But it also has to have shelf life since you drop your kids off with it and they don't hand it out till 2:00pm. So nothing fresh that will wilt or spoil in room temp. They won't give any suggestions as to what they want and I don't know why. Instead it is just no no no.
As for school dances, why don't schools focus on education instead and leave the dancing to someone else. Solves this whole thing.
Ben at February 14, 2018 4:17 PM
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