Funny, funny stuff, Amy -- especially the Eleanor Roosevelt line! I know amusing your readers isn't your primary purpose, but it sure keeps us coming back.

All I have to add is, how come the LW thinks it's perfectly okay for her to place a lot of importance on her dates' looks (her words), but if a man does the same he's "barbaric"? WTF ???

Great column, but I wonder what the heck the LW was thinking. She contradicts herself pretty badly for a one-paragraph letter. And you're spot-on. If I were initially attracted to a woman for her athletic looks, I'd be much less than excited 50 pounds later when she looked much less athletic.

I almost felt sorry for LW when I got to the "I'm 19" part. Fly, meet elephant gun.

Love the Hansbury cite. Great twist on a classic Goddess theme.

This is an interestingly illogical OP. Let’s take it apart.

In a recent column, you validated a woman's desire to lose weight solely to meet her husband's needs. Your encouraging her to take off pounds and get plastic surgery for him is an insult to yourself and every woman who reads your disgraceful article.

Opening statement: LW makes a clear value judgement. She is evidently insulted and believes every other woman is too. Including Amy, presumably.

I disagree with your notion that males care more about looks. I'm a heterosexual woman (19...am I a woman yet?), and my dates' looks are extremely important to me.

Unusually, LW asserts not that looks are unimportant, but that they are equally important for males and females. Evidence: personal anecdote. Anecdotes don’t carry much weight against systematic studies, though they are important for the person involved.

For a few extra pounds to prevent a man from seeing why he fell in love with his wife is barbaric.

Name-calling. But just because it's barbaric doesn’t mean it ain’t so. Amy's point is that it's not just barbaric, it’s even more primitive and deep-seated than that. It’s pure animal. Contradicts previous claim that looks are important both for males and females.

If you're really in love, you transcend the external.

This sounds like a Mills and Boon quote. Is it a definition of "real love?" Merely defining something the way we might like it to be doesn't change the world. And even if it is true, what then? We can't choose whether we'll be in love or not. What should we do while we wait for Cupid's arrow to strike? What about the poor souls that never experience true love?

If this woman can find it within herself to love the stuff she's made of, she'll attract attention she never thought imaginable -- the sort only unconditional self-acceptance brings.

This raises the question, why should a woman want to go to all this trouble, all this personal effort and change, to attract attention? Why, it’s back to our animal roots. Female seeks male with view to satisfying her animal nature.

What this OP comes down to is that the LW has her view of how things ought to be, and is outraged at the thought that things may not be like that. She has her view of "love" and insists that hers is the only acceptable view.

The idea that sexuality, lust, love, and all that goes with it is simply an evolutionary trick played on us, by which our bodies deceive us with the most delightful madness and passion, and which we think of as some high and noble ideal because the alternative is unacceptable, has not yet occurred to her. But at 19 she has a ways to go yet, and her writing is intelligent, so the outlook is good. I hope she joins the blog.

PS The other side of the LW's complaint about barbaric behaviour is men's complaint that women are only interested in them as providers - first of sperm, then of security and worldly goods, and always of physical strength on demand. Why can't a woman be more like a man? As Rex Harrison husks in My Fair Lady.

I'm about to get flamed but, the LW has some serious issues with the terms love and lust. Love is one of those things that has no concrete definition and is a personal feeling. It can not be easily categorized other wise Lifetime and Romance novels would not exist. Lust is pretty simple, either you want to pork her or you don't. There is no indication of the hubbies love for her in the previous letter. Now him not wanting to get freak nasty with her was the issue and that was lust.

Also to the LW this was not an issue of "a few extra pounds" I think Amy would have suggested that the husband was shallow if it was 5 lbs. This is 50 lbs. This is like wearing one of the Olsen twins as a fanny pack.

Hey, LW is me about 9 million years ago! I remember her, and her idealism is absolutely adorable. Yes, she can stay...

How many women leave men because they lose their jobs and can't find the equivalent in terms of money? Even worse, some women stay with the guys and make their life hell. Those guys are just losers to their wives and their wives girlfriends. Women (in general) have no sympathy for these guys. Why should anyone have sympathy for a women who pigs her way up the scale.

Crike! That's funny and true.

This is the kind of stupid psycho-babble that turns young brains into mush: "the sort only unconditional self-acceptance brings." Jeffrey Daumer had unconditional self-acceptance. No acceptance should be unconditional. Love most especially.

The other side of the LW's complaint about barbaric behaviour is men's complaint that women are only interested in them as providers - first of sperm, then of security and worldly goods, and always of physical strength on demand (Norman).

There is no indication of the hubbies love for her in the previous letter. Now him not wanting to get freak nasty with her was the issue and that was lust (vlad).

My wife and I met on a dating site. A frequent topic in the forums is "Why don't men look past the weight and love the person inside?".

Looking at the profiles of the women posting in these threads, there are many physical requirements to date these women. Must be at least 5'10", must not have facial hair, must not be bald, etc.

Why is it that some women feel justified in saying that they are not comfortable with a man shorter than they, but a man who is not interested in a woman 50 pounds overweight is shallow?

The categorization of "shallow" vs. "justified" preference is BS. People have their preferences and that should be OK. If one had to categorize, it might be more shallow to pick on attributes that can't easily be changed -- like height or hair loss or eye color. But still, there's nothing wrong with preferences.

In the particular example of height, I wonder if that particular feeling of "justification" comes from past experience with shorter men? Some shorter men have a real issue with their size and behave boorishly to compensate. My hub and I are within 3 inches of each other. One of the many things we sorted out sooner rather than later is that he's got no issue when I don a set of 4+ inch stilletto's. Go figure...

"The categorization of "shallow" vs. "justified" preference is BS."

I agree. When it comes to romantic partners, I think that all preferences are justified. If you turn me down because you are taller than me, you don't like my lack of hair, or I look a little like your ex, that is your business. It would only bother me if you then said that I shouldn't have my preferences.

Steamer ~~ Exactly. We can't help our preferences. But there was an old thread on this blog about the height issue, wherein a 5'5" guy was complaining that the tall gals HE preferred wouldn't look at him because he was short. And he was pissed because THEY were shallow!

But dammit, height doesn't make any difference when you're lying down!! o_O

"This is like wearing one of the Olsen twins as a fanny pack." Vlad! ...that needed a spew warning...

people paint with such the broad stroke... It's different when you've been married for 20 years, and you've both gained 50#... You may have mellowed together and not care. Or you may need to get in gear and recapture something together...

That is very different from on gaining 50# in 7 months. There is a lot going on there that is manifested with weight. Accepting the weight does nothing to address the stress reactions, or anything else. The guy involved may be looking at this and saying... what happens later? What is underlying? This is entirely separate from the question of attraction.

The thing about the hardwire for visual for guys and for provider for women, yeah everyone tries to wish this away... How much better if it was just accepted, so that adjustments could be made? That way maybe it wouldn't bug me so much that every woman wants to know if I'm "financially secure", but they ask in a way that is supposed to make it seem like they don't care.

The blurb from the gender change is amusing, because I had a long conversation with a friend recently where I was trying to describe rage to her, and she said, amybe If you had the words for it... I said that's the point! It is beyond words. She said "how can that be?"

>>> trying to describe rage to her, and she said, maybe If you had the words for it... I said that's the point! It is beyond words. She said "how can that be?"

Interesting. She doesn't get that one week a month where she wants to punch everyone she sees in the face, for no apparent reason? I want what she's on. ;-)

"If you're really in love..."

Tell it girl! Your vast experience of 19 years makes you an expert I'm sure! Though I must admit I am still young enough to think I know it all at times, walk before you run. It's just silly to claim expertise in something experienced probably once at most.

I think it's kinda cute and I miss that stage a bit. Such certaintude is so comforting.

"I know you lack logic. Lust and love are not exclusive categories." Questions of logic from a grad student cute. No they are not always exclusive but you can lust for someone and not love them and you can love someone without lust. Unless you care to confess to an open Oedipus complex. I got the impression of mommy issues just never figured they ran so deep.

That way maybe it wouldn't bug me so much that every woman wants to know if I'm "financially secure", but they ask in a way that is supposed to make it seem like they don't care.

I always follow that particular question with one of my own.

'That depends on how long you see us having wild off the walls sex everywhere we go and how long you maintain your apperance. How long will that last?

"The categorization of "shallow" vs. "justified" preference is BS." It's a matter of degree. Having a height weight preference is fine, I can't think of any people that don't' have some sort of limits on this. However if he needs to be 5'10" or she needs to be a size two has to have limits. She's a size two most of the time but due to um gender specific phenomenon she goes up to a size 4 for certain times, dumping her for sometimes wearing a size 4 is shallow. He's 5'10" (on normal visual inspection) but then you realize that he's 5'9.5" when he takes off his shoes, dumping him would be shallow.

Normal human weight can fluctuated by a few lbs through out the day. So having dead set rules for it aren't so much shallow as they are foolish.

""Love" without lust is called 'friendship.'" Or being married in grad school during the end of the semester.

Vlad, I'm thinking of hiring you for remedial humor assistance (when I'm up the creek without a joke). I almost used one like the Olsen twins crack you made above, but I was thinking of the less funny 6-year-old boy option.

Love the grad school crack, too.

I never weigh myself (I have a scale but only use it to weigh luggage to see how low-cut a top I have to wear to get my bag through the skycaps without paying extra), but if I gained five or 10 pounds, you'd see it on me. 50 pounds, I'd block out the sun!

No they are not always exclusive but you can lust for someone and not love them and you can love someone without lust. Unless you care to confess to an open Oedipus complex (vlad).

Love the grad school crack, too (Amy).

Now I do get it. Read the wrong post in hates. vlad, you're funny.

Amy,

If you don't hire vlad, I will.

Let's both hire him, but in the mean time, have a cat fight over him and sell tickets so I can not only get back to Paris but afford to eat there, what with the euro well on its way to trading for the 50-cent piece!

I don't get it, but I'm getting the idea you don't like me, Amy. Darn.

See you saw that it wasn't me who posted whatever was at issue.

PS If I didn't like you, you'd know!

Yikes. I'm too testy on this blog sometimes. If there is to be a girl-fight, please let me reserve tickets now. I do hope there is the Hollywood girl-fight cliche, the ripping of the blouse.

BTW, Polly-Vous Francais, your blog fascinates.

I'm in! As long as someone gets pushed into the pool while wearing a sparkly cocktail dress a la Dynasty!

Ah, to be 19 again! When love conquered all, and happy-ever-after was only a set of dreamy eyes and a house in the suburbs away. Sigh.

OK, back to the real world. LW, sweetie, a long, long time ago - no, not when your mother was a teenager, WAAAYY back before that - women needed men who were capable of fighting off sabre-tooth tigers, clubbing mammoth for dinner, and producing many strong offspring. The women didn't care much what the men looked like - perhaps a good thing, because they were all pretty much covered in hair, but quite by accident it turned out that the ideal physique for all this hunting and protecting turned out to be broad shoulders, slim waist, flat stomach. The men, meanwhile, were on the lookout for fertile women to bear lots and lots of children. A bright white smile, perky boobs and a tramp stamp weren't important, because genetically it has always been the case that women with a large hip-to-waist ratio were the more fertile. So your average cave-guy was just looking for big ass and tiny middle.

Now that we've evolved (and I write this with tongue firmly in cheek) men and women don't NEED each other so much, so personal preference has come more into play. As an example the more guys your age imho see pictures of Lindsay Lohan the more they, god help us all, think she's the embodiment of the perfect female. Anyway, "lust" is what's left over of that genetic urge to procreate - and it *can* wear off (or out?) for both men and women if the object of your "lust" changes sufficiently - like maybe if that flat stomach, or tiny waist, disappears under 3 inches of mac-and-cheese. We each have our own personal set of "lust preferences", and they can vary from person to person.

"Love", on the other hand, is mostly a case of chemical changes in the brain. Heck, we can get the same feeling temporarily from eating several large Caramilk bars. Saved in the freezer. Or so I hear. Its quite possible to be in "lust" with someone and not in "love" with them. And vice versa.

You'll learn as you get a little experience under your belt that relationships are all about compromise. If you marry a really kind guy and a few years in he becomes a really unkind guy you may no longer love and/or lust after him. The same rule can apply if you marry someone 36" around and ten years later he measures twice that. Its not very romantic but its the way things are.

The old bait and switch.

If a woman gains 50 pounds and expects him to still love her, then he should quit his job and spend every night in a titty bar and expect her to love him.

Eat less and better and workout more. Many of us put our kids to bed and then hit the gym. Or get up before them and get it done.

"I do hope there is the Hollywood girl-fight cliche, the ripping of the blouse." I get to sit in the corner chained to the wall like the girl in all the old Conan style 80's movies.

"Its quite possible to be in "lust" with someone and not in "love" with them." At her age I had NO clue that there was a difference. I though it was all the same. Wow there were a few women that at the time I was really in love with (nope just lust but back then ...), dumb luck or fate kept it from getting serious. Everyone of them I have run into has shown me that they were NOT the one or even a good one.

vlad -- that reminds me of one of my own lustee's of youth. Long blonde rock star hair, great smile...oh my! We were young and condoms were still an awkward commodity to come by and he kept asking to go without...which I refused. It didn't last long for various reasons, but I was amused two years later (when we were both 19) when I ran into him, looking extremely tired and stressed, with two little kids in tow. Dumb ass!!!!

Thanks for the chuckle, Moreta. I'm not a big fan of shadenfreude in general, but that's so poetic!

Sorry, that should have been "schadenfreude". Stupid fingers.

Ah, but does the overweight woman love herself 50 pounds heavier? If not, then she should focus on the body she wants to see when she looks in the mirror. Once she has attained ‘that’ body, then find out if her husband is in agreement. From my perspective, dieting and exercise is similar to quitting smoking; you have to do it because YOU want to. I practice what I preach and I certainly realize it is difficult. I am over 45 and believe me – it is not an easy battle. However, the reflection in my mirror every morning makes it all worthwhile. And the scale – a morning ritual for me because it is positive reinforcement!

"Schadenfreude" -- what a great word! I had to look it up. Interesting that there's no English equivalent for it.

This is surely a highly literate group of posters -- hope I can manage to keep up! I guess with the help of my dictionaries I'll be okay, as long as nobody departs from the Roman alphabet!

Haven't you noticed that the spoons in the silverware drawer fit together better when they are the same size? I like my sweety the same height as me. :-)

Also, I want to look like Uma Thurman. That's entirely my own idea.

PJ - I like that, about spoons. It combines cuddling with food.

Pirate Jo ~~ Yeah, and dancing is much more fun when you can dance cheek-to-cheek rather than cheek-to-lapel. As a short woman, I know this from experience. But when it comes to bedtime, differing heights don't seem to present any problem. Strange but fortunate.

sad but true, well said

Read the Eligible-Bachelor Paradox
How economics and game theory explain the shortage of available, appealing men.
By Mark Gimein in Slate.

Here's a link to that: Eligible-Bachelor Paradox to make life easier.

ggg

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Interesting article, thanks Jon and Norman.

I found this bit interesting: "Some men explain their social fortune by believing they've become more attractive with age; many women prefer the far likelier explanation that male faults have become easier to overlook." I can think of some other explanations. I enjoy dating more now, in my mid (OK, late) 40s, than I did in my 20s. All those young guys wanted to get married and have children - two things that I wanted to avoid at all costs - so now there's no pressure in that regard. Guys my age have for the most part had their kids, and done the "marriage" thing. Speaking for myself and my women friends being financially and emotionally capable of taking care of ourselves might well make some men's faults easier to overlook in that we don't have to worry about putting up with those faults if we don't want to. Let's be honest - there are things you can put up with while dating that might have you pressing a pillow over his face (hypothetically) if you were married.

Oh, and @ Greg Sutter

ggg to you too : )

I didn't think a small amount of weight made that much difference. I am hypoglycemic and got pretty heavy for a while. Interestingly, my wife, who is always considered rather thin, actually was the same percentage overweight as I was, but she didn't look it.

I went on the Atkins Diet, and it worked great for me. I cannot recommend it because it is very complicated, and failure to do what you are supposed to do, can be dangerous, IMO. I am not saying the diet is dangerous; I am saying not properly following the diet is, and many people want instant gratification so won't really read the books. You need fiber, and vitamins, and supplemental calcium, and failure to get that stuff can be bad for you.

As I lost weight, my wife developed a stronger libido, heh, heh. Note we are now both 66 years old.

Then, she also got motivated, and worked her way down from 123 pounds, to 102, with her ideal weight at 98 pounds.

I know she is 66, and I am supposed to be casting eyes at younger women, but I tell you, she looks pretty darned good now. Maybe not walking around as much, but, er, um, ahem, lying down in a desirable posture, she looks great!

Last month, on my birthday, for a special treat, she dug out the same exact red negligee which delighted me on our wedding night back in 1975, and it delighted me all over again! I did some of what I call deep-breathing exercises, and she seemed to be pleased at my response.

So, personally, I can vouch for that weight being an important issue. I wouldn't and didn't stop having sex with her for those 21 pounds. Under my chosen moral code, she is where I go when I want it, fat or thin, but I sure get a lot more enthusiastic at 102 pounds!

We built a large house, not fancy, but large, here in the Third World part of Mexico. We have been trying to 'baptise' all the rooms. Oh, man, when we baptised the kitchen, she looked like a goddess in the 'green moonlight' from the microwave numbers.

The only one that is a problem is our 3,000 square foot flat roof, but we want the full moon for the ceremony. The problem is, we are on a mountain side, so the people who live upwards can see our roof. I suspect I need to bring my Eureka Timberline back with me next trip to the States, but of course that defeats the benefits of the full moon.

This is not intended as porn, no matter how much it came out that way. I am trying to demonstrate that weight does make a difference, for both men and women. If my loss of weight, and my wife's loss of weight, can do this at age 66, imagine what it will do for younger people?

Hey, I just followed the link and read the paradox. It makes sense! I've often wondered why I and a few of my ordinary looking friends managed to marry awesome guys, where as a lot of my more gorgeous friends are still single. This confirms what I've believed all along... they were too picky.

I read the Paradox, and what I got out of it is that the women who married the male 'catches' were OK with settling. The concepts of 'settling' and being 'too picky' are truly in the eyes of the beholder.

The women with the strong bidding hand maybe didn't find anything they felt was worth buying, and then lost the game of musical chairs when they realized this was as good as it was going to get.

Irlandes ~~ You and your wife are to be commended for your perseverance, and for putting spice back into your lives after all these years of marriage.

As for performing on the roof and giving the neighbors a thrill in the moonlight, I'd say go for it -- let 'em eat their hearts out!

I have been monitoring this and similar blogs for a “little” while. This one is managed with a little more common sense than most. Amy must have had some good down-to-earth upbringing by her parents. This is not the land of OZ and just having a piece of paper doesn’t give you common sense.

MEN AND BEAUTY

After reading the postings of this topic I felt comfortable enough to jump in and provide a few redirectional comments. The majority of common thought is that men are attracted to women because of the size-weight-shape paradigm. The truth of the matter is that this is only a portion of the reason why men are attracted to women. Part of the attraction in a major way that men feel towards women comes about as the result of how active that woman is physically.

Men are genetically hunters and gatherers. Their testosterone level allows them superior function with the ability to discern shape in action. It's this increased ability to discern shape and action that attract men toward women. This reminds me of a good example we see almost on a daily basis. My dog and cat are primary representative samples of the hunter being attracted to action. As long as my cat is snoozing peacefully on my armchair there is no notice of his activity. My dog is relatively innocuous to my cat's existence. However, if my cat decides to get up and move about his action draws my dog's attention and the chase is on (the dog chasing the pussy).

It is action, motion, and shape that catch a man's eye. Anyone who has ever observed men closely and not realize this should, quite frankly, be hit in the head. Just look at a man's life. His life is full of constant action. Not only with what he does but with what he surrounds himself with. Look at a man's favorite activities: football, baseball, basketball, rugby, auto racing, rodeo, a bull riding, drag strip racing and the list goes on and on. Even those young men who were considered not endowed with muscles fulfill their craving for action via computer simulation. It is the action that is the action in a man's life.

DANCING WITH THE STARS

How does this fit in with man's attraction to women? A good example can be derived from the very popular TV show Dancing with the Stars. In the 2007 season there was a fashion model by the name of Josie Maran. Josie lasted only one episode of the series because of her physical performance was very substandard. As one of the judges put it she was, "deceptively unfit". Even though Josie looks nice dressed as a manikin in clothes she just could not provide the physical action people attributed to her good looks.

In contrast, when you look at this season there is a contestant, Marissa Jaret Winokur, who at first look does not give the impression of being somebody who men would consider really "hot". However, to see her in action when she is dancing, especially with that infectious smile and that attitude, really turns her into a whole other woman. Her action and her attitude kept her in the competition all the way into the semi finals. These two above examples prove the fact that looks can get you in the door but action and activity is what keeps you "in".

This action to attraction is also true for the more mature women who danced in the program. The older woman who knew how to move with the style and grace far out lasted the younger ones whose initial attribute was the way they look. The better the moves the more attention the women received and is translated into higher scores. The older but more active and fit did better than the younger but more sedentary.

THE FITNESS CENTER.

As an observer of people I have noticed significant transformations in women who start going to the fitness center on a regular basis, both in the physical fitness and the social departments. On multiple occasions these very large (by any standard) women who have somehow managed to gain control of their thought process and are looking for a change in their life started a program of regular attendance at the fitness center I frequent. As I monitor these women I can see an emotional change taking place. Their gloomy faces had brightened over the course of time and they started to socially interact more. Not only were they talking more with other women but several men had also approached, and finding that they would not be treated as molesters, developed a fitness center friendship. This happened despite the fact that there was no appreciable physical change.

These women engaged in physical activity no matter what their weight. As predicted, huge women at fitness center attract men if active and receptive to social interaction.

This doesn’t mean that this scenario happens all the time to everyone, but the worst that could happen is to become healthier. That is of course baring other preexisting health problems.

GENTLEMAN’S CLUBS

Gentlemen's clubs work on the exact same basis but with a slightly different venue. Men go to titty bars because that is where the movement is. They go there because they can have a personal interaction with a woman who is physically fit, active, athletic, and attractive. There is an additional incentive because of the intimacy of the interaction resulting in higher emotional satisfaction. The hunt and the reward.

This is also borne out by the fact that the dancers at the gentleman’s clubs that go up on stage and simply flop around make far less money than the skilled dancers. Look at the money Mike Jordan makes in contrast to the other players in the NBA.

Men’s psyches are being exploited as a result of a need to fill this craving. But, that is another whole dissertation on economics and who is using whom and for what.

What some very smart women have done is developed a whole new fitness business. One of the fastest growing exercise programs for women is learning how to Pole Dance. Do you think if Skinny Minnie, Sedentary Sally, or Tons-Of-Fun would be just that (fun and active) her husband/boy friend would have more of an eye for her and put money in her garter?

If women want to have a better shot at keeping their man and influencing his behavior be active, be intimate. If you can combine the to the better for the both of you.

I love your column!! I read it every week in the Tulsa Urban Weekly.. (heck, some weeks, it's the only reason I pick up that particular rag.. nothin' else good in there!)
You're absolutely right about this!!
I'm so sick of women whining about how their husband won't have sex with them after they've let themselves go and blamed "the baby weight" for the fact they've got 4 extra chins!
What is it about marriage that makes people think they don't even have to try anymore?
I think both partners in a marriage should make an effort to look good out of respect for themselves and the one they married!
Like it or not, looks matter! Not only to others, but most importantly, to yourself!
nobody likes to look frumpy and dumpy, most people feel happier, more energetic and more confident when they feel they're looking their best.

Thanks so much -- and would you do me a favor and let Urban Tulsa know? (Challenging economy, always helpful!)

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