Amy's right: this isn't stalking. This is a guy showing interest and you don't reciprocate. Happens all the time. If he now actually shoots you an e-mail message reply kindly but firmly that you are not interested. If he keeps cropping up during your breaks say, "I'm on a break right now, if there's something work-related you need could I get back to you after?" Don't be rude, don't make threats, be professional. You have to work with this guy. But be specific i.e. "I don't think of *you* in that way", or "I prefer that *we* have a professional relationship only". Don't say something general like, "I don't date co-workers", because a) you may one day actually date a co-worker, and b) your buddy may feel challenged to change your mind.

If you really, really feel stalked, or if his e-mail ends up containing something really inappropriate, keep a copy of it and your reply, just in case. Remember you can't slam him for sending an e-mail after telling him to do so.

LW: Time to grow up and start acting like an adult.

You know what? If she's so afraid of telling someone that she's not interested, tell her to email him a link to this column and explain that she's the one who wrote it.

I'm figuring that if the guy has the guts to pursue what he wants, he's got the self-respect to give up on some vicious shrew who doesn't have the nerve to say she's not interested.

It probably gratifies her ego to think that there's a man who's so obsessed with her that he's "stalking" her. That's probably why she's so ready to latch on to the "Psycho" theory.

Ironically, her self-esteem probably is rolling toward the gutter if she attributes interest in her as "obviously something wrong with him."

Sounds like in addition to saying "not interested," she needs Six Pillars.

Put the LW in her place, give good advice, and it was funny. Another great column, Amy.

"Today, as I was leaving for lunch, he said, "I haven't stopped thinking about you."" Most of the stuff sounds pretty harmless and she's over reacting but this one line sounds odd. That's not something you say to someone who you have not gone on at least one data. Sounds like a bit of an obsession, again it could just be social incompetence or he's not an native English speaker. The music from psycho coming on is an over reaction. If he's ok and just a bit interpersonal behavior clueless she's just fucking with the poor guy. If he is an actual psycho her behavior is stupidly dangerous.

Asking other coworkers about her is a pretty standard thing from what I have seen. It's an easy way to find out where you stand with little risk of sexual harassment. Catching her when she goes on break can be just a simple attempt to talk to her in a neutral setting. He's not invading her space by having a conversation in her cube/office.

LW: Given your obvious inflated sense of self worth I hope the hell you 5'9" or taller and fit into a maximum of a size 2. Otherwise lady your full of shit. He's ugly and creepy and your what Megan Fox.

I'm figuring that if the guy has the guts to pursue what he wants, he's got the self-respect to give up on some vicious shrew who doesn't have the nerve to say she's not interested.

Patrick, this is so right on. I totally agree.

Amy, once agin, you hit the nail on the head!

Amy, as the behavior she describes here doesn't seem creepy, did the LW offer more of this supposed creepiness in your follow-ups?

Surely we've heard various versions of 'I haven't stopped thinking of you' in movie after movie (I'm thinking mainly of older films) over the years. It simply sounds like he is interested in her. In a hook-up culture, someone who does the groundwork, tries to see her on break instead of interrupting work and then emails her that 'he'd like to get to know her better' is suspect. So much for courtship.

"Today, as I was leaving for lunch, he said, "I haven't stopped thinking about you.""
I agree with Vlad on this point. Either he's socially incompetent or English isn't his first language. Or he's slightly crazy. This (when not prefaced by at least a date) would make me hear the Psycho music too.

I dunno: I think the LW is overreacting as well and clearly has no respect for this guy, as Amy says. And, like Amy says, the LW needs to cut things off pronto.

I did learn the hard way that, though, that when you hear the psycho music and your hair is standing on end around a person, you need to listen to your gut and cut things off.

In college (keep in mind I went to a school with a LOT of socially, shall we say, "inexperienced" guys), I had 2 borderline "stalking" experiences within my freshman year that started in much the same way and then escalated. One guy was isolated and homeschooled in a remote area and had only spoken to females he wasn't related to on the internet. The other was foreign. Both lived near me and would do the same thing as this guy is doing to the LW. One approached me and said point blank, "I think I'm falling for you." The other came up to me outside and said, "You are very fit and tan." I did what the LW did--played it nice, smiled, said aw thanks, and, to fill an awkward silence, said "I'll see you around." What followed was constant phone calls (my school had a public phone directory, and every dorm had a landline), surprise visits at weird ours (7 am there would be a knock on my door--if I ignored it, I'd only need to wait about 10 minutes for the dorm phone to start ringing), odd little gifts in my mailbox and outside my door, and finding them waiting for me in the lobby of my dorm when I got back from class. One learned my class schedule and gave a professor a note to give to me. At that point, I got over my cowardliness, and sent them both an e-mail saying that we were clearly not on the same page and that, judging from their behavior, they were looking for someone who reciprocated their feelings (which I did not). One of them stopped (turned out he had several other girls he was doing the same thing to). The other backed off a bit, but, to this day (2 years postgrad) still sends me the occaisonal facebook message asking me if I want to go to a concert.

I guess that's my long-winded way of saying that, if someone makes you feel uncomfortable, listen to your gut. They are probably harmless, but could be very persistent, making the situation grow worse with time. If you're dealing with someone who may not pick up on subtle hints, you need to tell them clearly (but kindly!) that their conduct needs to stop.

Poor LW. Expecting Amy to be on her side and give her the right words that would make it appear she can speak for herself. I imagine she was pretty shocked by Amy's response!

"Today, as I was leaving for lunch, he said, "I haven't stopped thinking about you."" Most of the stuff sounds pretty harmless and she's over reacting but this one line sounds odd. That's not something you say to someone who you have not gone on at least one data.

You meant, date, but I don't think its THAT odd to say. Some people are just kind of awkward when they are trying to ask someone out, especially when they are just learning how. I have said some stupid shit to guys in my life time trying too hard to impress. Maybe that's all he was doing. She is equally as lame by saying equally stupid things like..."shoot me an email..."

By "creepy," she meant "icky." She was offended because she thought he was beneath her. And the guy said he hadn't stopped thinking about her because he was socially awkward.

And sometimes none of the obvious, polite and firm rebukes work. As previously mentioned, when the hairs on the back of your neck stand up, pay attention. Possibly, LW may be over-reacting but I now know I would be overly cautious if this situation happened to me again.

I worked with and was subordinate to a married manager. We didn't work in the same department, had little overlap in our duties, but he was a general manager over all departments. We had very little contact during work, but he gave me the creeps the day I met him in a meeting. He started out by asking my co-workers about me as well. He began making reasons to show up in my office "just to chat." He made it clear that he was interested in me by always sitting next to me in meetings, even if it meant asking someone to switch seats. He made it a point to touch me when possible and not in a necessarily overt manner (patting me on my back, touching my arm) all under the guise of "just trying to get my attention." My co-workers began to joke that he was "obsessed" with me. I, like an idiot, blew it off and focused on work. Firstly, I don't date married men and secondly, I don't date co-workers. I ignored my gut and assumed that this "crush" would blow over. I never responded to his requests to "get together after work some time." I deflected his fishing comments and avoided him when possible and remained professional at all times. Well, that ended up really pissing him off. After several months of verbal abuse and him threatening my job the situation culminated in him physically assaulting me on company property. My company did not discipline him, I had to get a restraining order against him because he continued to harass me and I was ultimately terminated. This happened a year ago and I am just now crawling out of a very deep and dark hole.

It's very easy to armchair quarterback when you've never been in this position. And especially hard for some men to understand the fear that can be felt when you are physically weaker. Most of you guys out there have never had to fear for your physical safety. I'm not a wuss by any means, I'm athletic and strong, but this guy was 6'3" and outweighed me by at least 80 lbs. and when he grabbed me by the throat and lifted me off the ground and shook me until I felt like I was going to pass out, I realized that just because I conducted my self professionally and sanely doesn't mean that I am safe from a deranged bully.

And sometimes none of the obvious, polite and firm rebukes work.

But you have to actually rebuke somebody, which she did not. You don't have to be unkind, either, just unqualified in your rebuke. And if you do it sooner rather than later, you may prevent a person who's prone to becoming obsessed from being so. I just wrote a response to one of the many nitwits who wrote me angry letters about this column, and it'll be published in the coming weeks and up here in the weeks after that.

Lucy: The guy escalated. That's totally different then a casual comment even a badly phrased one. In the LW case besides one badly phrased complement which is odd (that odd would be you smell good) without having at least some non business interactions. In your case the guy likely would have escalated regardless of what you did. Also the LW's coworker doesn't go to her officecube which is an over invasion of personal space, the touching is a much more sever invasion of personal space.

"I have said some stupid shit to guys in my life time trying too hard to impress." Wouldn't that qualify as odd to the average person? I'm not saying that he said "Wow. I'd tap that while pointing at you." or "Your smell is intoxicating" or any of the crap you see in bad movies. But it's still odd.

Generally speaking, I've long wondered if men & women handle the approach of a less than attractive person in very different ways. Thinking about the men that I know, I couldn't imagine that any of them would belittle a woman's looks. Yet it seems perhaps more commonplace for many women to do so?

Being in the IT field I have met many guys with no social skills who have done things to creep women out. In almost every case the guys never intended to evoke this reaction (they are smart enough to know that if a woman reacts this way their chances are zero,) were dumbfounded and extremely apologetic. It's a shame because they are nice guys and all the ladies had to do was to politely let them know they weren't interested. Instead they let the scenario play out longer than necessary and bad-mouthed the guys to their friends (some of them mutual.)

Most of the guys were struggling with self-esteem alread and a few of them (those who had mutual friends with the pursued) took it pretty hard that they were now branded pervs among an entire group of women.

Exactly, Dale. I've always had a soft spot for geeks, and I understand that totally.

Martie Haselton and others have done research that shows guys are prone to overestimate a woman's interest in them. It's likely due to something called Error Management Theory that she came up with with fellow evolutionary psychologist David Buss -- the idea that people evolved to make the error that would be less costly: missing a mating opportunity would be more costly than being embarrassed at overestimating a woman's interest.

I've never had the problems so many women do in this arena, and believe me, as a redhead, it isn't that I lack for guys who have a thing for my "type." It's just that I reject guys clearly, firmly, and kindly right from the start, and, more than that, if I sense a guy is at all interested, and I'm not interested in him, I mention that I have a boyfriend, dropping it into conversation. It comes out of having a sense of compassion (combined with an appreciation for those who get up the guts to go after what they want) but it also keeps me out of trouble.

As an aside: To pick up on something moreta said, I've had the impression for a while now that most people who write to advice columnists are not really looking for guidance -- they just want an authority figure to validate their beliefs. And some columnists are more than willing to indulge -- Abagail van Buren and Ann Landers were both notorious for encouraging LW predjudices that they happened to agree with. Amy, have you found this to be true? Do you get a lot of letters from people who just want you to tell them "yes, you're right"?

Women are socialized to be 'nice' at all times, and some cannot get past their childhood brainwashing. I'm sure there are assertiveness courses available at the local night school which would help the LW out, because she obviously has to learn how not to be human ooze, and then complain when nobody can figure out what she wants.

I had an experience recently at a social event at a restaurant. A guy that said almost nothing the whole evening, sent me an e-mail afterwards with the phrase 'your smile lights up the room'. I responded that I am only interested in friendship, and that I hope he meets lots of new friends. Ignoring the e-mail would have been stupid, because you really have to nip these things in the bud.

Amy: Like you, I've also "never had the problems so many women do in this arena." I'm 44 and have worked in male-dominated careers for the past 25 years with zero issues of this type. I like and respect men and get the same treatment from them. I'm also very clear about my intentions and/or lack of interest. I agree with you that the letter writer should have been clear about her lack of interest and I support your answer to her.

However, I was clear, by stating to my attacker that I was not interested in anything other than a professional relationship, but it apparently didn't matter. As I've learned, he's done this before. My point being, just because the LW appears to be immature and lacking a backbone doesn't mean that her "admirer" does not have obsessive/stalker potential. He may or may not and I'm most certainly not assuming he does.

To be clear, I feel it's important to remind women to consistently pay attention to their guts rather than only pointing out all of the things they should have done. Had I paid attention to my gut, I would not have assumed that everything would be fine based on the fact that it always had been for me. Life is different now, my previous perspective has definitely changed.

Some people, men and women, are just nuts, and will vault into sick behavior. But, the way you may be able to prevent this is by clearly telling them you're not a possibility from the start.

Again, this woman didn't say she was afraid of the guy -- despite the hairs on the back of her neck remark. The thing she says over and over again, in what I included and what I didn't, is that she feels he's icky and beneath her.

Again, note her remark, "I don't have the guts to tell him, 'Screw off, you ugly, creepy, uh, expletive.'"

Unnecessary. And unnecessarily mean.

What she also didn't have the guts to do was say, "I'm not interested."

Amy: Thank you for the kind response. I'm new to your column and didn't realize the letters were abridged. I'm clear now that for the LW it was more of an annoyance and class/status thing, than fear for her safety. I admit, I was probable overly sensitive to the "hairs on the back of her neck" comment, as that was my exact experience when I met my manager. Funny, they really do stand up and it's a very unique feeling. Anyway, love your columns. Thanks again and keep up the good work.

Thanks so much, Lucy -- really gracious of you. And yes, people write me pages and pages and pages of stuff.

Where do you read me (in which paper)?

PS A book recommendation: The Gift of Fear, by Gavin de Becker, an expert in the area.

Amy: I read you online. A while back I typed "advice columns" into Google search and your site is at the top of the list!

Thank you for the book recommendation. I bought it after I read you touting it somewhere. Cary Tennis also recommends it. It is excellent. I'm doing worlds better now. Kindest regards.

Thanks so much. I just want to remind people reading me here to feel free to request my column from your local paper -- the editor at the alt weekly or the features editor at the daily. I'm happy to have all of you here, but I earn a living when it runs in papers!

"As I've learned, he's done this before." Wow. I'm curious how did he get away with it?

"To pick up on something moreta said, I've had the impression for a while now that most people who write to advice columnists are not really looking for guidance -- they just want an authority figure to validate their beliefs."

I suspect that's the case here. Really, for someone who claims to feel "stalked" the LW seems more interested in putting this guy down (as in, "You're creepy. 2. You obviously live with your mother. 3. Never in your lifetime.") rather than stopping the "stalking" behaviour. I suspect if he looked like Daniel Craig (totally random example : D ) that she'd find his approach cute and endearing.

Lucy: no question some guys can escalate to the point where violence results. Sometimes there are signs, sometimes not, and sometimes there is absolutely nothing you could have done to stop them. Safety-wise you're absolutely right about trusting your gut. I'm just getting a mixed message from the LW. I agree she's confusing "creepy = not attractive to me" with "creepy = kidnapper-in-training".

Hi Vlad: I hired a private investigator after this attack. This man had dual households and jobs in 2 states and had a lengthy work history in both. It took me a while, but I finally found out that he was previously terminated from at least 2 other jobs because of harassment complaints from other female co-workers. In a word, he lied. And he did it well.

Hi Loopychick: Thank you for your support and I always enjoy reading your comments.

Luck: Sorry you had to go through that. That guy was a sociopath. I hope your doing you best to get him fired and jailed.

Wow, Lucy. That's an amazing story. Glad to see you got through it.

When I'm not interested in someone pursuing me, then I just say that "I'm flattered, but I'm not interested". I don't even give a reason and they generally don't ask for one. I've seen from my friends that the longer they string the guy along, the harder it gets to be honest and the more painful it is for everyone involved when they finally do. I think that some girls do enjoy the attention and the drama from having a "stalker" too much to stop leading on the poor guy. I definitely don't want to belittle anyone who has had a genuine stalker, but Amy did well to call out the LW as one of the fake stalkees. I hope the LW just says no before it gets even more difficult and he gets his hopes up even higher.
The LW made a mistake to say such vicious things about that guy when she's not even able to say a simple "I'm not interested" to his face. However, I think that her height and dress size are beside the point. So Vlad's comment was destructive and unnecessary.
I have struggled with anorexia in the past and occasional present. Although I am growing more comfortable with myself; comments like Vlad's about girls bigger than a size 2 not deserving to think of themselves as attractive are hurtful and can get me going down a path that I really shouldn't be going down. I work out regularly and am right now am at what at least the doctor says is my ideal weight and I'm a size 6 and 5'4. On paper, maybe that looks bad, but in person, I do get asked out and have even had boyfriends and am considered attractive in some circles. Not the fashion industry of course but as a girl in the real world. My body type is just curvy and I'm struggling to accept that.

Lily: "When I'm not interested in someone pursuing me, then I just say that "I'm flattered, but I'm not interested"." The perfect response - firm, professional and polite.

I really don't think vlad was dissing women who are bigger than a size 2 ( i.e. almost everyone except possibly Nicole Kidman) - he was trying to make a point about the LW calling her co-worker "creepy" based apparently on her opinion of his appearance.

Good for you on conquering the anorexia thing, though. You sound like you're doing great.

Is it different when a woman is pursuing a man and he is not interested? My little experience in this suggests that this is such a reversal of the usual roles that for a man to reject a woman's advances is likely to make her seek revenge for a perceived insult.

"Is it different when a woman is pursuing a man and he is not interested?"

Well, it shouldn't be different. Common courtesy should prevail either way. If the pursuer is insulted by such a response they have bigger issues and you've probably dodged a bullet.

Loopychick - Thanks. Now that I have read your comment and reread Vlad's I may have been too sensitive and jumped to conclusions.

Norman - I'm not sure what I would do if straight up asked a guy on a date and he said no, as I've never done it and probably never will. In my gender issues class, the teacher asked the guys if they would rather ask out a girl or be asked out and every one of them said that they would rather do the asking. When asked to explain, most of them did say that they would be scared to say no either because they didn't want to look like jerks and/or because they feared retaliation from the rejected woman. (hell hath no fury like a woman scorned?) Also they said they enjoyed pursuing the woman that they were interested in. Although apparently not the LW...a lot of women feel flattered when a guy expresses interest in them. And we learned that guys have a well-established ritual (at least according to this teacher) for what they do when they get rejected. They will go to a male friend and make a joke about either the particular woman involved or women in general, and if the other guy laughs they then they have invalidated that woman's opinion (sort of) and gotten some pride back back. Then they move on with their lives. And my teacher said that women have not been asking guys out for as long and therefore do not have a well-established rejection cleansing ritual in place yet. Not being a guy...I'm not sure if that theory is on or not...but that is what we learned. It is called the "freudian joke paradigm"

I've just realized I said I didn't know what I would do and we can't edit comments. I actually do know that I would NOT try to get revenge in such a situation. All it would do is make me look like an ass and validate the guys decision not to go out with me to begin with. I'd probably give the freudian joke paradigm a try or just move on.
I don't think its right that guys are afraid of saying no. No one who is uninterested should feel they have to fake interest. I definitely would not want a guy to agree to date me just because he was afraid of what I would do to him if he said no. That is one of the many reasons I prefer to be asked out. The entire dating process would be simpler if people just said ,"no" when they meant "no" and "drop me an email" when they meant "drop me an email."

See that's why I come here .. you learn stuff!

I love the idea of a "cleansing ritual", so here's mine. Last night I had a coffee date with a guy I met on a dating site. He didn't show up, no explanation, no e-mail. Looking on the bright side - if he's this inconsiderate why would I want to spend time with him - and I also hope he didn't have a horrible accident en route - but the little hurt part of me that says he maybe watched me walk in and checked me off his mental "babe" list wants to track him down and possibly set his hair on fire. Its not so much the rejection: its the way its done that can sting.

K, deep breath, let it go, feel better.

"Is it different when a woman is pursuing a man and he is not interested? My little experience in this suggests that this is such a reversal of the usual roles that for a man to reject a woman's advances is likely to make her seek revenge for a perceived insult."

Altho not a hunk, I was a reasonably attractive, well-educated, well-married man and after my female boss made a very obvious advance that was not welcomed, she made my life hell for the next 6 months until I quit. (Small business, she was the owner, I was the VP/Opns)

I took me a year to get over the psychological battering and, to be honest, I still hate her.

I have the same problem at work (the only diff. is he tried it with a girl that left before I came along, and she reciprocated)(I found out because she calls him at work). I guess he wanted to try with me. Not interested. But he took alot of things I do naturally, like give everyone a big smile as the go ahead. It's no big deal.

I just dont think the girl gets hit on alot, otherwise she wouldnt find this anything monumental.

I've read Amy's columns for a while (don't remember how I found them), but never commented. But there are a few things in this that hit on my experiences.

There's always the difficulty of telling the different between stalker-creepy and socially stunted-geeky. As a (female) geek myself, I hang out with geeks. So I have a very forgiving view on what sets off alarms. And sometimes I ignore the alarms. One such case, I was dating a guy that I'd met through a mutual friend. I'd told him up front that I wasn't looking for anything serious, but that he seemed cool and I had fun doing stuff with him. This seemed just fine. I was wrong. Somehow, dating him for more than a single date had turned into we-will-one-day-be-wed in his head, and it turned to a controlling relationship (briefly - done that once before and wasn't about to do it again) and then stalking right afterwards. If I had nipped it in the bud when I knew it wouldn't be anything that would evolve into a marriage, I don't think it would have gotten as bad (he didn't get a restraining order only because I didn't know about his harassment of my recently divorced parents at the point when it was the worst between us, and by the time I actually heard what he'd been telling my dad, he'd disappeared completely, but I keep some of the electronic communications in the event that he ever returns...). I don't regret the good times we had in the beginning, just that I tried to be nice after it ended, thinking that we might be able to be friends, even though I'd seen evidence that he planned to control my life in ways that not even my parents had during my angry teen-age years. Don't write the socially inept off as psycho, but watch them. Just because they're socially inept doesn't mean they aren't also psycho. But don't assume they are, either. And speak up for yourself - I didn't, and I think it would have made the whole situation a lot different and I wouldn't have been as concerned for my safety. Or I'd have just filed the restraining order anyway, regardless of whether or not it was a "nice" thing to do.

And a girl, on getting turned down. I do actually have some experience here. Was mostly a variation on getting dumped. Avoid guy for a few days, call girlfriends and bitch and/or watch chick flicks (or in our case, Law and Order:SVU, but we're kind of weird), and eat ice cream. The annoyance will pass, and a good round of "why you're too good for him anyway" will make you feel better. And then you go back to being friends with the guy (or whatever else he was to you) and let it go. Or you can keep hoping and stay friends with the guy, just making sure you DON'T overstep "just friends". If something's going to change the way he feels, I think that's most likely it. And look for other fish in the sea. My problem being that my sea is running out of fish, and I'm having to import them...

Interesting comments on a man turning down a woman. Some of Lily's classmates feared retaliation. Loopychick was stood up, which is unpleasant, and fantasized - but only fantasized - retaliation. (I've been stood up and it was hurtful but revenge never came into it.) Lew's boss made his life hell for 6 months. He doesn't say how, exactly, but I guess it was not repeated advances?

Lily's gender issues class offers one explanation: lack of a rejection cleansing ritual. I think there's another one, which is that biologically speaking, the female offers more, so rejecting a female is much more significant than rejecting a male. In Lew's case, for example, she might have had serious loss of face when he rejected her, and found it embarrassing and painful to have to deal with him every day. Any female cleansing ritual would have to be much more powerful than the male one.

Norman: "..which is that biologically speaking, the female offers more, so rejecting a female is much more significant than rejecting a male."

What are you smoking (and can I have some please)?!

What more, exactly, is a woman offering "biologically speaking" when she seeks to start a relationship than a man is? Her womb?

I don't know about anyone else here, but I didn't start relationships thinking "oh good - I've just met the mother of my children" and I doubt that any of my exes looked at me and thought "wow - he'll be the perfect provider for our offspring"

If I, or they, had thought anything other than "hmm.. he/she's nice I'd like to find out more about him/her" or even "phwoar.. I'd like to get into his pants/her knickers" then I'd have run a mile - as would they.

James - that may well be what you are thinking, but it's not what your genes are thinking. No-one has told them about contraceptives. They still operate on the principles that have worked for the last four thousand million years, not just the last forty years. They may not control every detail of your behaviour but it's plain that they control quite a lot - else you wouldn't be wanting into someone else's underwear in the first place.

B#gger -
I had a long reply written out for you Norman, pointing out the many instances where we've over-ridden whatever our genes might be driving us to do but IE seems to have swallowed it.

More briefly then.

If our genes are so important in dictating our behaviour and our sex drives then why do we have Nuns, Monks and Priests?

Why did the concept of Courtly love come to dominate so much of the 11th and 12th Centuries?

Why do we engage in fetishistic sex, same-sex relationships and pornography?

Why have concepts of the 'ideal' body shape for women changed so much over the centuries when the biological 'ideal' is an hour-glass figure?

We are so much more than the sum of our parts, or the influence of our genetic heritage. We are human and 'civilised' (I use that very loosely) because we can control our impulses.

"We are so much more than the sum of our parts, or the influence of our genetic heritage. We are human and 'civilised' (I use that very loosely) because we can control our impulses."

Our impulses, yes, but not necessarily our emotional responses. I think that is what Norman was getting at.

Quite, Other Lily.

James says it himself: "we've over-ridden whatever our genes might be driving us to do." Just because we've over-ridden it doesn't mean the driving doesn't exist: quite the reverse, in fact. All we have done is put a sticky plaster over a wound. The wound is still there!

Patrick says:
It probably gratifies her ego to think that there's a man who's so obsessed with her that he's "stalking" her. That's probably why she's so ready to latch on to the "Psycho" theory.

I think in many cases there is a lot to this, and if what the LW stated is the extent of the "harassment" she has suffered, it sounds like this may be one of them.
I can't count the number of times I have heard a girls cell phone ring, asked her if she was going to get it, and had her say, "No, thats just some guy I met last week/yesterday/ earlier this week. Now he won't stop calling me." They never seemed to appreciate being asked "how di he get your number?"
It seems many women use "stalker" as a fashion accessory - a whine-boast to tell the girls about over once a week margaritas.
Stalking is serious interruption of a persons life by calculated, malicious behaviour - not an accusation you pull out of the toolbox when you find yourself in an uncomfortable situation. Much less, an uncomfortable situaion you helped to create.
Being attractive is not a burden. Being attracted to someone is not a crime.

Well, cool. Loopychick... is not loopy. I'm always glad to see a thinker.

You guys talking about a "cleansing ritual" need to read back and take advice from the Goddess, and be comfortable with yourself and what you're doing; act and plan your actions to make the company of others a joy but not a strict necessity. It's not a fat ego you'll be hauling around - you'll just be comfortable.

Amy,

Thanks for being a beacon of common sense in a turbulent sea.

Let's forget the individuals here for a second and look at what's happening in our society. Freedom House, www.freedomhouse.org, a worldwide civil rights group recently studied trends in the US and published a report called, Today's America: How Free. They found we are losing freedom in America right now and its largely driven by fear. The report states that one thing that is slipping is a sense of PROPORTION in our justice system.

In horror films the writer and director manipulate our sense of proportion to create the effect they want, a 1/2 inch bug becomes 5 stories tall, etc... Its a common technique. Hitchcock was a master.

Maybe "The Hunted" has spent a little too much time at the cineplex? Or listened to some of our politicians for too long. The current crop are unfortunately not the ones who could come up with the line " We have nothing to fear but fear itself"

rejection is only hurtful if you CHOOSE to take it personally - along the lines of what radwaste said, if you frame it as something like "we're not a good match," or "i guess i'm not her/his type," then it's not a measure of your value/worth as determined by whether someone else wants to go on a date with you. letting rejection be a personal battering that requires cleansing or recovery is a CHOICE - a self destructive choice.

the easiest and kindest way to "reject" someone is to say, nicely, "thank you, but i'm in a relationship." what they don't know and don't need to know is whether that "relationship" is with someone else, i.e. a boyfriend/girlfriend or perhaps with oneself, i.e. a choice to remain single, or whatever. the specifics don't matter, and you don't have to offer any details about the supposed relationship; it's just the simplest way to shut something down right away.

Sorry, Trina, I disagree on both points.

There may be people on the planet who are so secure in themselves that rejection doesn't bother them one iota. And I don't think its a choice - if it was its a choice we'd all make. Never to be hurt by someone else again? Sign me up. You can certainly choose how to react outwardly i.e. NOT setting his hair on fire, but there's always that tiny part of you that goes, "Ouch" to some degree. I'm not saying its logical ... its just the way a lot of us are.

I'm not sure I agree with the "I'm in a relationship" approach either, although if the sad truth be known I've used that one myself. It can come back to bite you in the ass, especially in an office setting, if one of his sources later mentions you're not seeing anyone. If he realizes you've lied he could be insulted and if he feels you're now available he might try again. Hard as if sometimes is I really feel its best to stick to the truth.

So as we women approach our mid forties, do we become "less valuable"?

Speaking from a strictly procreation-of-the-species point of view, sure. But its not all about that anymore. Not all guys want to make babies - some just want sex without all the possible reproductive repercussions, maybe with women who are, for whatever reason, not interested in having kids.

Seriously. Come on, there have to be a couple, at least ; D

So as we women approach our mid forties, do we become "less valuable"?

The honest answer? Yes. Generally speaking.

Consider how women tend to be worried about and jealous of younger women -- because they're naturally hotter, just by virtue of being young. Now, some older women are going to be hot, or hotter, or remain hotter than most. But, generally speaking, the average women is going to be more valuable to more men when she's in her 20s.

Guys, on the other hand, may worry about young studs on an attractiveness level, but the men who have pull are guys with money, status, and power, and the men who have these things tend to be older.

Men and women are biologically different, and psychologically different, and have different desires and goals. Men prioritize looks in a way women don't, and women prioritize success/status/power in a way men do not (in fact, a successful woman may put off some men).

Don't worry cupcake. It also means that men with no money, status or power are less valuable too, so everything works out fairly.

James Howard would likely also note the existence of NBA centers and midgets to argue that we should not generalize about humans' average height.

There are outliers in every population sample. But that does not negate the obvious averages, or the facts that those averages inevitably bring into a debate.

Focusing on extremes to make data-starved arguments is accepted in blogs, law school, and other places where the arguments don't really matter.

Spartee: I don't think your argument is entirely valid. MBA centers and midgets certainly fall at opposite ends of the scale when it comes to height, and as such they'd be considered "outliers". I haven't done the research but I'd guess they fall within a fairly small percentile height-wise.

On the other hand at this point in our history I suspect human beings are over-riding their genetic programming so often, and on so many levels, that its more the rule than the exception. James Howard mentioned nuns, monks, priests and several other examples, but its a pretty long list. Really, we override our genetic programming to some extent every time we go out after dark, thanks to the advent of artificial light, although that residual fear of the dark can creep up on us in dark alleys.

I think that every generation, as the number of options available to us increases, we'll over-ride our genetic programming more and more - unless of course the food runs out or two-thirds of civilization is wiped out by a virus, at which time we'll get right back to staying in our caves while its dark out.

We are so much more than the sum of our parts, or the influence of our genetic heritage. We are human and 'civilised' (I use that very loosely) because we can control our impulses.

Sorry, I somehow managed to quote James H at the end of my little ramble instead of the beginning.

Brilliant.

I hate this kind of woman. Won't take responsibility for herself or her actions. She has given him NO reason to think she's not ok with his attentions, and she calls him a stalker? I am not a size 2 but am tall, and have had lots of male attention over the years (more than I felt I deserved, from a popular-culture-ideal standpoint) and it's really not hard to say no to a guy, UNLESS you wait weeks or months to do it. At that point, he'll feel like an idiot, and people do nasty things sometimes when they feel they've been made to look like an idiot.

I've also had a gut reaction that a guy was not safe, even when given no real reasons to think so. I listened to the gut, in a rational way. I was not around that person anymore and never spoke to him. I did not work with him, that might have complicated things some.

She needs to grow a back-bone and a brain. One cheesy line does not a stalker make.

I've had more than one male co-worker like the guy this letterer's describing. Creepy, ugly, smelly, old, out of shape, oblivious to the reality that not only do all women not want a piece of their old, smelly, overweight, creepy, ugly ass--most likely none but their wives do (if even).

These guys are, as I said, oblivious (though massively and simultaneously egotistical and insecure). Subtle, tonal shifts hinting at the insincerity of her "Shoot me an e-mail" will be noticed, but only in syntax, not subtext.

However, a polite, direct "no" on her part (or something more confrontational) could be met by retributary bitching-and-rumor-spreading-around-the-workplace or, perhaps worse, professional-underminement.

My suggestion would be to affect a strategy of passive, indirect ego-deflation until the creep must accept, to himself, the fact that he can't do anything to make himself competitive.

Example of this strategy: Letterer mentions in passing, in the presence of multiple others, (including or not including, definitely within earshot of, though never alone with or directly to, the creep) that she has a weakness for, or dates almost exclusively, one of the following sort: guys who free-climb cliff-faces, hockey players, surfer bums, gymrats, motorcycle enthusiasts, musicians, etc.

Sure, some of these might be outlandish, but even something as simple as "tall men," if he's short, will probably do the trick. If the men she's dated, or has interest in, are unlike the creep, she doesn't even necessarily have to lie.

Since the creep knows he can't be any of those things, he will give up without having received a rejection that he can blame on her, which would nag his ego into a response the letterer is unlikely to be in a position to match (she sounds new to her work). His state of mind will, at worst, be one of nebulous anxiety, rather than letterer-directed hate.

Most-likely, the creep will begin viewing (and treating) the letterer as something between a neutral and a non-entity, rather than as a castrating adversary.

Of course, the letterer would need to be the kind of woman who could conceivably attract gymrats, atheletes, tall guys, etc.

In the case that she is not, she should either live with his attention, risk his wrath or start dating a co-worker who creeps her out less.

If she doesn't want to do any of those things, she should adopt some workplace habit that might mak her unattractive to him (picking her nose, not wearing makeup), though there's no telling what otherwise unattractive thing a creep may find attractive.

If she doesn't like that idea either, then she should simply wait his attention out since she's just too difficult for anyone to find attractive for very long.

If he was hot she would be calling him boyfriend and telling the cute story of how they met at work.