Is there some sort of culture of fear amongst certain women? Is it feminine to be scared all the time? I mean, sure, cuddling up during a horror movie is nice - but living your life like that?

Take our house as an example: we live in a small town on the edge of the forest. There are women who refuse to walk from our front door to their parked cars 20 feet away, unless a man accompanies them. I just don't get it: no loser is going to lurk in the forest unless he has a thing for bunnies, weasels and foxes.

@LW: She needs to say it ONCE in front of witnesses. Then it's Human Resources time.

What?! This guy works up his courage to pay you the compliment of asking you to dinner and you embarrass and belittle him in front of his colleagues? Or more likely, in front of your female colleagues, since you want reliable witnesses to document his crime. It's Human Resources time indeed, but not for his behaviour.

@Amy: Instead, she e-mailed me, telling me she'd reported the guy to her boss: "This man asked me to lunch! Or dinner, if that was better for me."

Are you serious? Or are you exaggerating to make a point?

Let me make sure I understand this:
So the guy expresses an interest. She responds with "shoot me an email," a phrase even the most gun shy man will interpret as "yes, I'm interested." Then the guy, not only thinking she might be interested but having been encouraged by her to do so, sends said email asking if lunch or dinner is preferred. Woman responds to guy by reporting him to her boss.

Is that right?

Can we ban idiots like this to some far distant island? What ever happened to "I'm flattered but not interested"? Because yeah, you SHOULD be flattered that someone saw something redeeming in your stupid, self-centered and shallow self. I wish Amy could get ahold of her boss and set the story straight. It's precisely this sort of bitch that ruins real harassment claims.

She doesn't have to like the guy, but she should be civil and adult about it instead of ruining his work situation. Come on, it's not high school.

Bradley, I think there is. Fear as a weapon - "I'm so frightened - hurt that bad man who's frightening me."

I believe it's called "sending mixed signals", and this one thing has gotten more people into more trouble more often than not! When I was little (back in the dinosaur days), women were always taught to be polite, and not to "hurt others' feelings", something that in principle, should work fine, but in practice, leaves oneself open for situations such as these. In all matters, especially those of the heart, honestly is still, and always will be, the best policy. Yes, feelings will get hurt. But in the long run, a slight slap does a lot less damage than a sledge hammer. YMMV

I should point out that in Western culture, men have the societal expectation to form relationships with women, otherwise they are perceived as inadequate or even gay. Also, men are put in the position of having to take the initiative. Combine this with the mixed signals and miscommunication that occurs between the sexes, and the grossly exaggerated "sexual harassment" rules in the workplace, and it's no wonder that these situations occur.

Consider this: why drag something like this out for so long? Get over it already! Or is she getting some sort of validation from keeping it afloat for so long? "Oh my gosh, this guy HIT on me!!!" said a thousand times keeps it alive longer for her and everyone around her. She may not get this sort of event that often.

Gee, what is the big deal? How difficult is it to say no, thank you? Uh, thanks but no thanks will deter a crush. And that's all it usually is. This guy was shyly approaching her, not following her everywhere she went. In any case, thanks but no thanks is exactly what needs to be said -- not shoot me an e-mail -- then if he doesn't take thanks but no thanks, try look leave me alone and if he doesn't, then report him. But, Christ, he ain't a creep unless those two attempts to say you're not interest result in you will be, damn it. How many guys then turn hostile?

Frankly, who doesn't know shoot me an e-mail would encourage someone? I have to wonder if she wasn't getting her kicks playing this guy. I agree with Norman. He ain't the problem.

I think "Shoot me an e-mail" was intended to be the office equivalent of "Don't call me, I'll call you" in the mind of the original LW -- but instead it was interpreted as "Call me."

Flynne pegged it -- we've been taught not to hurt feelings, so it's difficult to say no. Still, there are polite ways to say it and still be clear.

Both of these LWs are being ridiculous about it. I hope there aren't many more of them out there trotting down to Human Resources -- if there are, who's gonna dare to hit on us ??

I think you might be on to something Donna. Perhaps this woman was playing this guy like a fiddle for her (and probably her female coworkers') amusement but now that she is done playing she lacks the courage to tell him she really isn't interested.

Its funny to see that some women feel so entitled these days that they think they don't even have to bother with telling a guy they're not interested but when he doesn't get the signal that she's not sending its his fault.

He might be a dork but I would much rather deal with a dork than a conceited b!tch.

Pussnboots you want a horriffic example of how prevelent these kind of women are?

I ran across this site while dealing with a subject on a different blog

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/131060-could-your-frosh-d-date-senior-3.html

Second post down.

First of all, every adult (including older teens) is a potential rapist. That is kind of the definition of the word "potential." I was not speaking of this situation specifically, just the situation in general of an older boy asking out a much younger girl. I was not suggesting that eighteen year olds are more likely to rape than sixteen year olds (though I very stongly suspect this is the case) but that an eighteen year old is more likely to rape a fourteen year old than another eighteen year old.

Translation -
All boys potential rapists
18yr old boys more likely to rape than 16yr old boys
18yr old boys more likley to rape 14yr old girls than 18yr old girls

First of all, every adult (including older teens) is a potential rapist. That is kind of the definition of the word "potential.

What I found funny about that post is that it's from a website for people applying to college, so it's about college tests like the SAT, or who have issues about kids in college, etc. But the person who wrote that doesn't seem to know what the word "potential" means. There's got to be a reasonable possibility for someone to use the word "potential". Otherwise, the word loses all meaning.

Actually, if you look, the posting doesn't specify males. It says "every adult".

I suspect that in this context, "potential" is intended to the fact that (almost) any adult has the physical ability to commit a rape. Sort of the way that having long legs and decent lungs makes me a potential hurdle racer. Doesn't mean I have the slightest interest in being one.

Whether this is a reasonable point to make, or just an unnecessary encouragement of paranoia, is another question.

Sexual Harassment has unfortunately become what Rape used to be, whatever SHE says it is. In this day and age of rampant political correctness, an allegation such as this is allmost certainly A death sentance to A mans career. I myself once lost A position for noticing A co-worker, whom I considered to be A friend, had nice legs. Since we joked and exchanged barbs on a regular basis, I thought this comment was well within the context of our relationship, since she never wore shorts and I assumed there might be A minor self esteem issue in that area. Whereas if she was genuinely offended, A private word to me on the side would have resolved the entire issue to everyones satisfaction.

Teebone, you're playing my song. At my "hearing," for a situation very similar to the one you described, it was explained to me (as though speaking to a rather dull child - I am just a man, you know) that sexual harassment WAS whatever she said it was. However she PERCEIVED it was what mattered, and motive, intent, past associations with her mattered not one bit.
When asked why she didn't say anything to me when the "event" took place, she said "I didn't want to hurt his feelings."

What amuses me is when silly women, like the LW and the original LW fearful of their own shadow and "stalkers" when they come out of nowhere to tap you on the shoulder or squeeze your arm etc. when you're not expecting it. Thus I give them a bad look or a cold shoulder and they get a hurt/suprised look on their face. They're just plain "shocked!" I tells ya and oh so hurt by you're mean callous reaction.

The ones who were being serious (in showing support or being friendly etc.) amaze me that they think blindsiding a guy with that kind of action is a good thing. Yeah, I'm a socially awkward geek/nerd not used to a touchy feely response but its not wise to grab/touch a person from behind when they're not expecting it.

Tee (and Wolf, assuming your situation really was similar), you have my sympathies; although that kind of remark could certainly be construed as inappropriate in the workplace, a friend would have laughed it off, or taken you aside and talked to you if she was uncomfortable. Escalating seems like overkill.

To speak from the other perspective, though, there are guys out there who behave in truly, horrendously appalling ways and don't seem to realize it. I've always been one to laugh off stuff like you're talking about, but I did report one guy early in my career, after he asked me -- IN FRONT OF A CUSTOMER!!! -- if I had caused a power outage by "sticking [my] tongue in the outlet again". I reported him to his supervisor, and he responded by coming to me and indignantly asking me to explain what he'd done wrong.

Sigh.

Ith thticking ewe tonguek in a thocket thexual harathment naow?

Oopth.

Radwaste: Huh?

...or to put it another way:

No, but thuggethting that thomeone elthe did in a profethional thituation probably ith.

Does that help?

other lily,

I really don't understand women like you. When you meet someone, whether it be at work or not, you behave like you know them. If I befriended someone at work, and they commented on my legs, I would reply the way friends do. I wouldn't at all feel that something inappropriate had transpired, I would conclude that there was a miscommunication, either verbally or nonverbally, about the nature of our friendship.

If some dude asked me out IN FRONT OF A CUSTOMER!!! I would tell him we could talk about it later IN FRONT OF A CUSTOMER!!! And if it is so inappropriate in your work place, then as a friend or professional, tell the person that people around this office (or wherever) get real real touchy about certain things said IN FRONT OF A CUSTOMER!!! I certainly wouldn't whine inappropriate, inappropriate, inappropriate.

Jeez. Do you really equate what I described with asking me out?

As it happens, the guy had asked me out. I responded by ... going out with him. Once. He was disgruntled because I had (politely) declined to sleep with him.

Oh, and to clarify ... I only said the legs compliment "could be construed" as inappropriate. If a guy at work tells me I have nice legs, I smile and say thank you. If a guy at work asks me out, I say "yes" if I want to go, and "no, thank you" if I don't. If a guy at work makes an insulting and degrading remark to me in public, that's another matter.

Sorry I evidently pushed your buttons, though.

Here's a self confessed dork. I don't think you could meet a more pleasant young man. Ladies, don't get all worked up!

The Other Lily says - ...there are guys out there who behave in truly, horrendously appalling ways ...

Rape - Horrendously appalling.
Quid Pro Quo Harassment of anyone - Horrendously appalling.
Murder - Horrendously appalling.
Someone asking you if sticking your tongue in a light socket caused a power outage - NOT horrendously appalling.

In the debates over sexual harassment, we always hear justifications for the laws at first being passed, and later defended with stories like these: The 22 year old mother of 45 with a deadbeat ex husband (like really, what other kind is there) who has to work 14 jobs to pay for her youngest kids skin disease treatments but her boor of a white male boss (again, is there any other kind of white male boss) says he'll fire her and report her to DHS so she'll lose her kids if she doesn't put out.
And we see the commercials like the one in which the boor of a white male supervisor (again I'm being redundant) tells her she should use her body to advance her career. "I mean really," he says, "We're talking about your career here." "NO!!!," she bravely retorts, 'We're talking about SEXUAL HARASSMENT here, and I DON'T HAVE TO TAKE IT!!!!"
Then we have conversations with women about sexual harassment laws and their gross mis and overuse, and you tell us you went to somebodies supervisor because he asked you (in front of a customer) if you stuck your tongue in a light socket and caused the power outage.
Truly horrendously appalling?
Sigh, indeed.

Oops, that link didn't work. Here it is again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rj2UJP3DRQ

Two bottles of wine + HTML don't mix.

OK, fair enough, "horrendously appalling" was hyperbole.

Still... what would you consider to be an appropriate response? Do you honestly think it was not objectionable? Or that he would have paid attention to a gentle correction?

Oh, Norman, HE'S ADORKABLE!!!!! Thanks for sharing.....

I honestly don't see why this is all so difficult.

If a co-worker makes a comment, request or suggestion to you, or touches you, in a manner that you feel is inappropriate, at the first reasonable opportunity explain privately, politely and clearly WHY you feel it was inappropriate and it shouldn't happen again. If the comment, or touch, leans towards sexual and/or violent, the "first reasonable opportunity" might be that very second - a step back and a firm, "Please don't do that/say anything like that to me again."

If the incident is so scary that you just want to get out of the room, do that. Then make a note of what happened and evaluate your response. If you feel in retrospect that you've over-reacted you should still bring the incident to the co-workers attention a.s.a.p. Its up to you if that conversation has to happen with a third party present.

This applies if the co-worker is male or female, and if the comment or action happened in private or in front of others. Your co-worker may be annoyed despite your professional approach. That's life. S/he will usually comply with your wishes. Its up to you to decide if you want to make a little note of the incident (date, time, what happened and how you responded). If things continue, or escalate, that's when you visit HR to present your case, and your notes, in a professional manner.

Common sense has to prevail here - not the case with Wary Woman. And the co-worker's physical appeal shouldn't be a factor - not the case with The Hunted.

Other Lily: the tongue-in-the-socket comment in front of a customer deserved either "That's not an appropriate comment", right off the hop, or to be ignored and then the "not appropriate" conversation immediately after the customer left. Its up to you to explain what s/he did wrong a.s.a.p., thus maximizing the chances of resolving the whole thing before getting HR involved.

Norman: Ooh, wine. So cute! And that accent is just the mint sauce on the lamb chops!

Lily: no idea if he would have paid attention to a gentle correction. But you gotta give him the chance.

As to whether or not it was objectionable, I don't know what the dialogue between the two of you had been before this incident - perhaps you are someone who engages in pretty edgy teasing when out of the earshot of the customer, and you were truly upset by something said in front of a customer that wouldn't have upset you otherwise. If that were the case, on the next break, a stern "Hey dude - we play around in private but in front of the customers its strictly business. You sabe?" would have done the trick.
Or perhaps what he said would have offended you no matter where he said it. If that was the case, and IF you are not guilty of ever teasing around in a like manner with him (which would have given him good reason to expect you to be able to take it as well as dish it out), 'Hey dude - I don't appreciate what you said and I don't want to hear it again. I treat you with respect, I expect you to treat me with respect. Capice?" At that time, leave out the "or I'll take it higher" - thats out of line at this point. You are letting him know where the line is, he gets to decide if he's going to respect it.
99.99999999999999% of the time, that does the trick - it not only solves the immediate problem - it earns you respect.
If it doesn't, you have every right to take it higher.

Thats my take from a mans point of view - The Advice Goddess might disagree, and if so, I would give her opinion considerable weight.

Cats: thanks for the note of sanity in a discussion that was becoming increasingly emotional. I agree, first, that my tone was unnecessarily strident, and secondly, that HR is a last resort, not a first, especially if (as seems to be the case these days) the response is likely to be out of proportion to the offense, real or imagined. Your suggestions for dealing with such situations are excellent.

In my defense, though:

1. Thinking about why this whole discussion hasn't led me to think I might have done him an injustice, I realize that the tone of the remark was neither jocular nor tongue-in-cheek, but bullying. He intended to be offensive. (This doesn't mean a direct "Don't do that again" wouldn't have been a good idea, but a friendly heads-up would have been out of place.)

2. I didn't howl for his resignation, threaten lawsuits, or involve HR at all. I talked directly to his immediate supervisor, and simply told him what had happened. I then left him (the supervisor) to deal with it as he saw fit.

3. This happened 20 years ago. The whole issue wasn't as out of hand at the time, and I had (and have) no reason to believe he'd get more than a talking to.

There does sort of seem to be a thing going on here of minimizing anything icky or wrong a male co-worker does because, ya know, us chicks are so hysterical. A few years ago, the CEO of the company I worked for stuck his hand down the crotch of my pants at a party. He was pretty drunk, and was known to be sort of a creep, so while it was unpleasant, it wasn't surprising. I told him to stop, he did, life went on. I'm assuming that according to some of you folks, I shouldn't have been annoyed because, after all, how could he have known that was inappropriate behavior until I informed him. I didn't report it or anything because it didn't seem necessary, but the story did make its way around the company from folks who had witnessed the scene, and I was rather amused that his "innocent playfulness" caused him to be rather persona non grata amongst the womenfolks.

Anathema, don't get me wrong, I think we've been talking here about inappropriate comments and the like, and that you can often nip that sort of thing in the bud with a little educational and/or warning talk. Everybody has different ideas about what's appropriate and what's not - that's why you set your personal ground rules early. Then, *if* something similar happens again your annoying coworker can't say, "Well, I didn't realize ... ". Yeah, you did, because you were told.

What happened to you was beyond inappropriate, it was assault - possibly sexual assault - and that's in a whole different category. We all know assault is against the law. This is the sort of person who needs a hard and fast lesson. I guarantee at a minimum he'd have been wearing his drink and a split lip, but that's just me. At the max the police get a call. And then maybe next time he thinks about sticking his mitt in someone's crotch he has second thoughts. Or maybe he's got a criminal history.

I'm just saying the response should match the offense and the circumstances.

back to original letter....maybe one reason I´m happy in Latin America is guys are permitted to flirt - er, sexually harass us... I find it quite stimulating and not at all scary. Sexual assault comes from another place than honest interest or innocent flirting. And to go around scared all the time is very scary in itself, I mean isn´t that what therapy is for?
plus interaction is plagued with asks and denials, I mean that´s the difference between us and our computers, its not such a big deal that most guys are geeks or dorks or rapists... well wish they weren´t.

Anathema you assume wrong. There is a clear line between appropriate and inappropriate behavior. The guy you speak of was clearly inappropriate in the fact that he touched you without your permission. Now if he were drunk and simply asked you out on a date I don't think that would be inappropriate. Frankly if you had put your knee in his crotch on the spot I'll bet it would be the last time he touched you (or anyone) like that.

Anathema,

What are you on planet retard?

"minimizing anything icky or wrong a male co-worker does because, ya know, us chicks are so hysterical"

You minimized the "icky" shit your co-worker did and then felt good that because of it, other female workers got to snicker behind his back for like the rest of his life.

I mean, down the CROTCH of your pants? That would take a whole lot of shoving, unless of course, you were wearing sweat pants.

And Other Lily, you found his comment intentionally bullying? And you are certain that a friendly heads up wouldn't have worked at all? That indicates you either knew him pretty well or you have superior powers in mind reading.

When someone says something that I find genuinely inappropriate (which has to go pretty far in my book), my first response is to ask myself what I might have said or done to make the person believe he or she could talk to me (come at me) in that way. Then I use my powers of rational communication to rectify it. And I battle bullying with bullying, rude with rude, low down with low down, kindness with kindness, professionalism with professionalism. Of course I always keep the upperhand, but that's me. Here's an example:

After I had my last child, I was losing the weight pretty rapidly. I was at one of those sizes where my clothes were getting a little loose but the next size down was too tight. So, I am giving this presentation and I'm wearing red slacks and a black top. Anyway, after the presentation, this guy says, you look great in baby blue. I knew he was talking about my underwear, but I just gave him a what-the-fuck look and said nothing. He repeated the comment twice before I stopped in the hall, turned directly to him and said something like, "what did you graduate from Bitch Boy University or where were you born Lameville?" I can't exactly remember my comment, but I promise you he never came at me like that again.

Zap, agree...it's like that in France. Men pursue you, ask you out. It's one of the reasons I'm with Gregg. We met, I flirted, he asked me out right then and there for a Coke at the Farmer's Market (no farmer's in this one) a few paces from the Apple Store where we met.

I don't have problems with men because I'm clear when I'm not interested. More women should try it.

I can see how the electric socket thing was more offensive then it initially sounds. The implication is that the other lily is a lesbian for not sleeping with him. I have heard that euphemism before. That's the equivalent of calling her a dyke (SP) in front of a customer. If he's that much of an ass hole to pull that in front of a customer it's unlikely that a stern conversation from her would have helped. Going to HR or his boss now over that would have been overkill, 20 years ago would likely not have resulted in more than a chew out.

When it comes to the workplace, unless you have a McJob you care nothing about, the safest policy is to treat every female coworker like your grandmother is with you at all times.

No off color jokes, no asides that have the faintest whiff of anything adult-themed, no heartfelt discussions of your personal life or theirs. Nada. And never, ever hang out in a gal's office without the door WIDE open.

Asking one out is permissible, but only when an almost Victorian code of social conduct is observed. (Even then, it should generally be avoided, for all the commonly known reasons.)

Paranoid? Unreasonable? Yup. And I confess that I do not even always follow those rules. But after having seen some really fine men get their working lives completely screwed up by some shrewish coworker making BS complaints, I decided better safe than sorry.

So in the spirit of the "potential rapist" paranoia discussed above, I look at every woman I work with as a "potential" complainant in a court case against me until she proves otherwise.

I hate that. I really do. I wish it were not so, because I really like having friendships with women, at work and otherwise. I also think it may have hurt some gals I worked with, since I did not extend professional assistance and mentoring to them at times when I could have. (Assuming I am competently able to do such things, of course...)

But when you have student loans to pay, kids to feed, and a career to tend, that level of paranoia just might be reasonable, given the stakes. Particularly after you have witnessed the bad stuff up close.

One of the reasons I come back to this site is because it is, in short, a truly male friendly site run by a woman who likes and appreciates men. This is refreshing after spending time on sites by men who have been burned, and preach to the choir. I like that real communication can occur about the issues, and its frustrating sometimes to try to do that with men who are burned,angry and have retreated to a misogyny that mirrors perfectly feminist misandry.
But worse is this - when I try to encourage those men (or watch others try)to engage women, they say stuff like this - 'Why even try? All they will do is crawfish, misrepresent facts and your arguments, and above all, erect strawman after strawman. Its not worth it."
I can't be disagree with their complaints about the tactics used in debate -those tactics are writ large in this conversation.
The Other Lily - you begin by giving us an example of something "truly, horrendously appalling." To your credit, you acknowledge that hyperbolic description, and ask for a response. You get one. Fair enough. We're getting somewhere.
Then you start to crawfish - "He really was being bullying. And it was twenty years ago, so I didn't really overreact." Maybe, but approaching you after the conversation with his supervisor and asking you what he did wrong is not the response one would expect from bully - usually he would either feel brought up short, and thereafter treat you with respect (like any bully punched in the nose) or quietly plot revenge.
But lets suppose you are right - he was being bullying.
In a conversation about sexual harassment, this is THE example of oppression you live under, and it happened twenty years ago? Do you have any idea how much crap in various forms the average working man has to put up with in twenty years? If that is your story of suffering, some stupid guy made a stupid comment twenty years ago - well, thats hardly making the case for women as a downtrodden underclass, and it certainly doesn't do anything to justify the LW's treatment of this clod she works with. It sounds (not trying to be insulting here, it like you expected everyone to gasp in shock at your story. When they didn't, and in fact a couple of people pointed out to you some alternative viewpoints, you kind of crawfished, so to speak - throw in some other facts to shore up the premise. Thats fine if you want to win an argument - heck, I'll just concede the point if thats all anyone is interested in. But it doesn't do much to move things forward.
But we need a strawman, which Anathema helpfully provides. Noone said this, or anything close to it - "There does sort of seem to be a thing going on here of minimizing anything icky or wrong a male co-worker does because, ya know, us chicks are so hysterical." What this man did to you was assault and battery, which is and always has been unlawful. Forgive me if I don't get outraged about something you seem to have been more annoyed than outraged by yourself. But if you had chosen to take that situation further, I wouldn't have criticised you, and nothing in these posts gives you any reason to believe otherwise.
Women are adult sentient beings, and the principle of equality demands that they be expected to act like it. You aren't acting like it when you run to go tell the teacher everytime somebody looks at you cross eyed.

Much as I hate it I follow spartee, doing otherwise is just too damn dangerous. I have seen guys get burned a few times. That's why I never touched company property. Shit most of the time I'm too scared to look at a female co-worker. I developed a bads habit of looking down when I think so I spend most of my thought process on looking past them while talking. Sucks but have to play it safe.

Hey, folks, if anybody would like to take an excursion that's 'way, 'way off topic, check out this item: http://rahoi.com/2006/03/may-i-take-your-order/ -- it's gotta be the funniest thing I've ever read.

Be warned, though -- don't read it at work unless you're in a private sound-proof office, unless you want to risk being fired for too much LOL!

Vlad, Spartee and WolfmanMac ~~ I apologize for appearing to be dismissive of your very real concerns by interrupting the conversation -- but your posts weren't there when I put mine on. I truly do understand your positions and regret that things have come to this. As I've said in the past, it's a case of overcompensation, and a little balance and common sense is called for.

No offense take, Pussnboots, we're good.

And if I was offended, I'd forgive you after that. That was hilarious. "Every Form Rape." I don't think I'd order that.

Hey, Wolfman, thanks for the long and thoughtful response.

It became fairly clear to me early in this discussion that I had done such a poor job of trying to make my point that it was pretty much past retrieving.

"...THE example of oppression you live under"

Well, no. I don't consider myself to live under oppression. As I tried to state elsewhere, I generally find myself in Amy's boat -- I treat compliments as compliments, I say no when I mean no, and I have had almost no trouble with stalkers, harassment, or anything of that nature in my life.

My original point, fatally badly put and long lost in obscurity, is not about what I've had to endure as a woman (not much, truthfully), but rather about how little common sense some guys have about what constitutes a reasonable thing to say to a female co-worker. Jokingly or otherwise.

Well, the consensus here seems to be that it wasn't all that bad a thing to say in the workplace, which frankly surprises the bejibbers out of me. I would find that remark a little icky even in a close friend, though I would let that go with a wrinkled nose and a response of "Eww!" This was not a friend, it was a guy in another department of a rather large workplace, whom I'd been out with once and decided not to repeat the experience because I'd found him a little creepy.

BTW, when I say he "asked what he'd done wrong", I actually meant that he called and yelled at me, demanding that I repeat back to him what I'd found offensive. Not all that incompatible with being a bully.

Given that that's the only time I've reacted that strongly to anything in 20-odd years of professional life in a male-dominated field, I think I might deserve a little benefit of the doubt that there was something truly offensive to react to.

think I might deserve a little benefit of the doubt that there was something truly offensive to react to.

And you do, I do apologize if I came off as attacking or putting you down - you were there, I wasn't and it is asking a lot to expect people to present an issue in its entirety in an online forum.
I hope we can continue to have discussions like this in the future, and hope you know that I am sincere in my desire to foster understanding as well as learn something myself.

So I've posted on a previous thread on a blog my experiences with the sexual-harassment machine... once charged by a female employee who put her ear to a locked door and eavesdropped, and once by another female employee who was upset because she didn't think that men in the office should be allowed to go out to lunch without her. So I understand where Spartee is. Here's a scary thought: I've been trained on the use of automatic external defibrillators (AEDs), which are the machines that you see on the wall in a lot of public places these days, that allow laypersons to administer first aid for heart attacks. One of the things that they emphasized to us in the AED class is that one of the pads has to be placed directly over the heart, in direct skin contact. That means that the victim's shirt or top has to come off, and if the victim is a woman, her bra has to come off if it's in the way. If I found myself in a situation where I had to administer the AED to a female victim, I honestly don't know what I'd do. Maybe try to get a female bystander to come over and remove the bra and place the pads. But if there isn't a female bystander... ?

Other Lily: I don't know about others here, but when I first read that bit about a tongue in the electric socket, my reaction was "Huh?" Until I saw vlad's post, I was unaware of the sexual connotation of that expression. I must be living a sheltered life.

Wolfman: thank you for that.

For what it's worth, I do sympathize with the feelings of the guys here. I think it's ridiculous to hold hearings or terminate people over an unwanted compliment or invitation, and it sounds like that kind of thing happens far too often. (In this case, "far too often" = "more often than never").

Honestly, I think extreme measures should generally be kept for physical assault, quid pro quo rapists (it is rape), and incorrigible repeat offenders who ignore multiple attempts to educate them. I also think that most flirtatious remarks and date requests are harmless (unless the recipient has already requested that they stop).

For the very large gray area in between, I think education/communication is the right answer. I just wish that more employers realized that. Obviously it's best if the person who has been made uncomfortable takes care of that communication herself (or himself), but if they feel unable to do so, they should be able to bring in a mediator without getting anybody fired. IMHO.

Wow, who knew ducks had chins??

Cousin Dave: I suspect in most places you'd be covered by some version of the Good Samaritan Law. But just in case, if I ever clutch my left arm and collapse in your presence you have my permission, in advance, to pop the bra. I'll only sue if you actually caused the heart attack in the first place just to get a peek. Trust me.

And of course 30 seconds after I hit Submit, I thought: geez, maybe that was inappropriate.

Ducks have chins? Chickens have ears? Cucumbers have hooves? I guess in China they do -- what a strange and wondrous land! Personally, I'd like to see the Cowboy Leg Beautiful Pole -- wonder which course that was!

Cousin Dave --

You have me laughing here. In your class, did you practice the technique on dummies/manequins? In order to put the AED on a woman, it really shouldn't be necessary to tear off her bra. The idea being to get to the "heart" which is not really anywhere near nipple territory.

Just tear open the shirt - and bra - if needed, but try to save the woman some dignity. Why wouldn't common sense apply in a potential situation like this?

Geesh. Men!

"just tear open the shirt - and bra - if needed, but try to save the woman some dignity." Please tell me that was a bad joke. I have been in a situation where I almost had to use an AED and currently work making them. Once one of these bad boys comes out the person is near dead. Anyone who's worried about their dignity when their heart is in v fib about to go into asystole (which you can not recover with a defib contrary to all the medical shows) probably shouldn't be brought back. If your dignity take presidance over your life you have serious issues.

Cousin Dave: If she survives to sue you she'll likely be laughed out of court, though not an absolute. Of course if you doing CPR with a cupped hand over her boob you might be in some trouble.

BTW: On most of the AEDs the left pad has to go under the left breast for females.

Amy ~~ The new design works well -- it seems to utilize more space, and makes it easier to see who posted what. My compliments to you and/or Gregg.

That was ten minutes ago. Since then the new format has disappeared and so has ready access to this thread -- I had to find it via the Columns Search feature.

I'm sure the site is undergoing redesign or something -- I'll just keep quiet until it's finished.

Gregg is working on the site...he'll fix that. Sorry about that. Will be fixed soon.

I highly recommend Gavin de Becker's book The Gift of Fear, too. I read it years ago and it is full of practical, common sense advice, that everybody, not just women, should follow. It's a great read, too, which considering the subject may sound strange. But it's a well written account of specific cases that demonstrate the overall theme of the book: trust your instincts and worry about being considered rude later.

There is a big difference between, annoying, rude, or offensive behavior, and truly threatening behavior. Too many of us ignore that voice that tells us to run because we don't want to appear rude.

It's also a very fascinating description of the stalker mentality and gives great advice for how to deal with a stalker. Which means not dealing with them. At all. Make it clear you are not interested and then have absolutely no contact with them at all.

de Backer does a great job of explaining how most stalkers think, and how they react to the typical things that are done in an attempt to stop them, but in reality just make the situation worse.

Every woman should read it.

A hand on/down (how?) the crotch is definitely out of bounds but is not "assault and battery", come on! Do you even know what that means? If she'd honestly felt afraid and had been physically hurt or thought this man was a genuine danger to others, I'm sure the tone of the report here would've been different to how she described it.

A few years ago I was standing in line to enter a club and a woman came out and literally forcefully grabbed my crotch and had a quick feel - she grabbed just hard enough to hurt a bit. OMG, have I been "assaulted" then!? Oh nooo ... *breaks down in tears* ... please, bring on the years of therapy! Call the police! *Sob sob* .. get real. No, I promptly forgot about it, went on to have a great evening, and hadn't thought of it again. The way you people go on, I should be in counseling now and should've attempted to bring legal proceedings against her to ruin her life ... y'all clearly haven't seen real problems, come live in Africa a bit.

The Other Lily: Although you horribly exaggerated the issue originally (and it seems a bit out of context in the discussion), I agree the person's tongue remark was stupid (and incredibly childish and unprofessional) and agree with your assessment that it was bullying (a LIGHT form of bullying). Nonetheless this isn't something unique to females, bullies are bullies and usually behave that way to everyone (male or female) that they think is enough of a pushover for them to get away with it (if anything, they're usually less likely to pick on females, for various reasons). I'm willing to bet that if you had really watched closely you'd have seen that this guy also similarly bullied male co-workers. I've had similar problems 'in the workplace' even as a male and learned to deal with it by standing up for myself, as any human inevitably must learn to do. A little assertiveness can go a long way.

I do think there is one valid reason to have reported such behaviour to the supervisor - by doing that in front of customers he WAS affecting the business negatively, giving a bad impression, tarnishing the business, and being generally unprofessional - as a business owner (as I am now) I think it's fair to expect to be able to know if your own employees (that you pay specifically to merely be vaguely professional) are damaging your business with such infantile behaviour.

"A hand on/down (how?) the crotch is definitely out of bounds but is not "assault and battery", come on! Do you even know what that means?"

Do you?

From Nolo.com: Assault: A crime that occurs when one person tries to physically harm another in a way that makes the person under attack feel immediately threatened. Actual physical contact is not necessary; threatening gestures that would alarm any reasonable person can constitute an assault.

Battery: A crime consisting of physical contact that is intended to harm someone. Unintentional harmful contact is not battery, no mater how careless the behavior or how severe the injury.

From the Canadian Criminal Code:

Assault: applying force to a person, directly (physical contact) or indirectly (threatening gesture), without the consent of that person.

Sexual assault: any form of sexual contact, without voluntary consent, including kissing or fondling.

David J: "If she'd honestly felt afraid and had been physically hurt or thought this man was a genuine danger to others, I'm sure the tone of the report here would've been different to how she described it." I agree that the crotch-groping account doesn't come across as though the gropee was afraid or alarmed by her CEOs action. That might be because it happened years ago, or maybe it didn't affect her too much.

But I don't think that's the point. The law doesn't restrict the definition of assault, or sexual assault, based on how the victim reacts. The law lays out the circumstances under which an offence is committed, and its up to the victim to react as s/he sees fit. And the fact is that different victims will react differently. I would likely have just popped the guy one, and called it a day. But everyone reacts differently to stuff, based on a whole lot of circumstances. People have different temperaments, backgrounds, even times of life that can make the assault more personally upsetting or frightening, more of a violation. If I'd been assaulted by someone else previously I might have reacted more fearfully to a crotch-grabbing. If I had a history of being assaulted it might have been psychologically devastating, or if I was tiny, or frail, or old, or - who knows?

In the end the victim has to make the choice that's right for them. David, if you're comfortable with letting your own crotch-grabbing experience go without any action on your part that's great. Not everyone can - or should have to.

As for living in Africa - well I agree there are problems and then there are PROBLEMS. But that's not a valid argument.

catspajamas: Fair enough, but what I don't like is the way everybody suddenly jumps up and down TELLING SOMEONE they have been a victim of something horrific and how they "must" do something about, when it never even occurred to them to consider themselves a "victim". I wonder how many things like fake date rape charges start this way. People can be "talked into" feeling like a victim, and it does more harm than good at that point. It's a terrible idea to manufacture trauma post-event, and horrible to try push that on somebody else, especially without even knowing the details of an event, but simply out of knee-jerk OMG-victimism paranoia that has become prevalent.

This is why so many men are going after women from the FSU. You American "Ladies" who think your ****ies are made of gold, who turn everything into a feminist moment, you aren't worth having. The good women get married young, by age 30, you are too much trouble, in the workplace or anywhere else.

Since I see there is another Nicole, I will be posting with a K from now on. I am not going to bother going back and changing previous posts...

I think, when you're young, the idea of being sexually harassed is kind of exciting. It was to me. I kind of liked the idea of my being so irresistible that men would say inappropriate things to me. It's sort of a sexual power that young women have.

I was obnoxious like that, and overreacted in the dorm when mildly inappropriate things had happened. It made me feel sexy and hot, that these guys were being somewhat inappropriate, and the whole "how dare they" implied that I was some goddess far above them.

Now I'm older and wiser, and if some guy says something flirty, I just smile and thank him and go on my way.

It's only harrassment if you're not good-looking"...

These men on certain blogs and message boards whom someone described here as misogynists, etc. are well aware that men who marry have a 40% chance of seeing their lives destroyed by no-fault divorce. Forty percent. How many of you women would ever leave the house if there were a 40% chance of being run down by a car?

Imputed child support payments, which means pay money you don't have. Then, being sent to jail, d/l canceled, professional licenses canceled, can't get c/s reduced for six months, which means never catch up again. False charges of all kinds and laws which prohibit real legal defenses.

Bad things happen to men who even so much as date much. Bad things happen to men who merely socialize in the work place. Bad things happen to men who date and allow women in their houses.

Women suck liquids out of condoms, use it to impregnate themselves, then men are forced to pay child support, though they fairly took actions to prevent pregnancy. A growing number of men have decided not to even have sex with women. Other advocate carrying around Tabasco sauce and filling the used condom with it.

Alvin Toffler wrote a book called FUTURE SHOCK, describing how change was happening so fast that some people can't keep up.

Few women today really have even a subtle hint what life is like for men today in the Anglosphere. When men tell them, they shriek all sorts of insults, which means they learn nothing, so smart men stop telling women what is bothering them, which does not mean it stops bothering them.

Anger among men is increasing at a geometric rate, in response to all they are experiencing. Somehow, calling men more names just doesn't seem like it is going to help any.

Misogynists are made, not born. It is the basic nature of males to desire women, and to desire approval from women. When large numbers of men have a negative attitude towards women, you can be sure it is not a result purely of men with a bad attitude.

Someone invented a game called FEMBOT BINGO. He took the usual insults women cast at men who dare to criticize any women, or feminism, any time, any place, and made a Bingo card. When you get all the way across or down or diagonally, you shout "Fembot Bingo!"

The insults include things like:

You must have a small penis.

You must hate women.

You must be gay.

You are angry because you can't get laid.

You hate your mother.

You must live in your mother's basement.

You are fat; ugly; etc.

Smart women, like Amy, are actually taking time to listen to men. As best as I can tell, there aren't many smart women?

I am sure some of you think this doesn't affect you. Well, maybe.

Look what ignoring men has produced already. Note the rate of decrease actually increasing sharply between 2000 and 2004.

Also, the total number of marriages each year in UK is now lower than way back in 1895.

Number of Marriages per 1,000
Unmarried Women Age 15 and
Older, by Year, United States:

1960 73.5
1961 72.2
1962 71.2
1963 73.4
1964 74.6
1965 75.0
1966 75.6
1967 76.4
1968 79.1
1969 80.0
1970 76.5
1972 77.9
1975 66.9
1977 63.6
1980 61.4
1983 59.9
1985 56.2
1987 55.7
1990 54.5
1991 54.2
1992 53.3
1993 52.3
1995 50.8
2000 46.5
2004 39.9

Hey, I have a great idea. Maybe if you insult us even more, call us even more names, we will forget all about it and become totally docile again. Or, maybe not.

In my case, I am an open advocate of men of intelligence bailing out of the Anglosphere, just as the most intelligent members of a certain group of people bailed out of Germany in the 20's. Those who didn't, died.