" You call yourself a nice guy, but you're really a "nice guy," an approval-seeking, conflict-avoiding suckup …The "nice guy" might seem generous, but he actually isn't; he gives to get… Thanks to a lifetime repressing his feelings and denying his needs, he's filled with rage "

You are so dead on here, Amy!

Doormats can be a highly manipulative bunch. It's Ego gone awry only to subversively hide underground (passive aggressive, as you mentioned), laying in wait to pin their lack of good boundaries and impossible-to-meet needs on someone else’s shoulders. (I can speak from personal experience here, Champ, take Amy’s advice – its golden.).

He doesn't need to be a bad boy, he needs to have enough self respect to say "no" or "HELL no" when he means it, instead of yes. And here is the tricky part, 55… you will need to be *okay* with the possibility of an unpleasant fallout.

He's looking for someone else to fill his void. That is a dependency, and a pretty unfair one at that. He is "using" these "friends" just as much as they are using him. It’s the perfect dysfunctional dance.

He's getting his self-pity-victim-hood fix so he can turn around and feel justified in his resentments by placing responsibility for his own happiness on someone else’s doorstep (ultimately, keeping him from uncovering that all this craziness is of his own making and should have stopped LONG ago). And his friend’s, are getting a pushover/enabler to keep them from suffering any consequences of their own (who goes out and drinks with people they don’t trust?).

Amy, excellent response!!!

Something I see a lot on your site, Amy, is advice for a person to get in touch with their real inner self. It sounds very nice, but it's rather tricky to do - especially for someone who's 55 and has a lifetime's experience of being a doormat.

I'm fortunately not quite at the "55" stage of life, but I still find it extremely difficult to properly analyse myself and to "figure out who [I] really [am]". For all that your regular contributors may be wonderfully self-aware, consciously powerful icons of self-love and -respect, many of us haven't the first clue how to go about this seemingly wonderful transformation.

How would you advise a person to actually go about banishing those layers of psychosis (if that's an acceptable word?)? Is Dr. Glover's book really all that stands between us and eternal happiness?

Why, that's me in a nutshell—just sub out the women for men and there you go. Where the hell were you in 2003, when I got into my last dysfunctional relationship? You know, the one where I basically was the little satellite to his (and his family's) solar systemful of needs, waiting for the occasional crumb of approval to be thrown my way?

If that's what you are, that's how you'll feel. My RX: Marine Corps Boot Camp and a Black Belt in Karate.

Change your life, they will, but there are costs and risks involved. Being the same person and expecting to feel different about yourself is great for psychologists, but it's hard to fool yourself.

Some people give because they think this person will love me, never hurt, me and my life will be wonderful.

They are terribly disappointed when time after time they are used and taken advantage of.

There are people who will take and take as long as you let them.

Sounds like you need to get to know these people better before you start sacrificing your time etc...

You should know people well enough to know if they will reciprocate.

If you find out they are not willing to reciprocate, move on to people who will.

If you are around people who expect you to do things for them have pre-planned excuses ready. Example: Sorry I have a work project. I have a project at home I'm working on. I have to get my car, cell phone, etc fixed or maintained, I'm rearranging my sock drawer.

I'm with Amy. I think you do this out of wanting to be loved and people just take advantage of you.

MarkD-- Marine Corps won't cure everyone, alas! I have two great friends who came out of the Corps just as codependent and low on self esteem as they went into it. *sigh*

As someone who wrote a similar letter to Amy years back and took her advice, I have to tell you that she was absolutely right. Sometimes though people don't want to hear it. It is much easier to blame everyone else when you know that you've been so "nice" and cannot figure out why you just keep getting taken advantage of. Not only did I listen to Amy, but I found a good therapist. He said something interesting that stuck and happened to coincide with the timing of what Amy said. He helped me see that I was a classic enabler and that sometimes enabling is a sickness as much as an addiction. By enabling, you are keeping someone else sick and dependent on you and then you never have to worry about them leaving you. It wasn't easy and it wasn't overnight, but I look back now and cannot believe that the word no did not exist in my vocabulary. It does now and it is amazing how easy it is to say. Yes, in the beginning there was the fear of some major fallout because I actually said no to some ridiculous request. But I also learned who my friends were. Hint..they were the ones that accepted that no was as much a part of my vocabulary as theirs. The ones who couldn't accept it and pushed and needled were the ones that moved on to other doormats. It is about self-respect and I had none. 55 is not too old to learn unless you convince yourself it is.

I'd like to address the myth that you can't be a "nice guy" and still incredibly attractive to women. My guy does things for me because he wants to but if I occasionally ask him for something silly he'll say "couldn't ya do that yourself?" He's nice, but he's not a doormat.

He has enough self-respect & confidence to speak up when he doesn't feel like doing something. That may be what Amy is trying to get at also - know yourself well enough to know what you want and then have the balls to speak up in a way that matches that. Trust me, it's hot.

Perfect response, Amy! I'm a fan of Heartless Bitches International, as well! (You can Google it; I can't access the link from this computer!) :)

Even when shopping around for an ok-he'll-do husband, I don't see niceness as a big selling point for women. It's usually he's good-looking... and nice. Or has a great personality and nice. And so on and so forth.

Of course, I'm an incredibly bitter and angry guy, so I'm not talking from personal experience. But sometimes nice guys are actually the ones finishing last.

"As someone who has lost a female friend to a homicide committed by her boyfriend, who shot her point blank in the head...."

An unfortunate consequence of dating "bad boys".
------------------------------------

"I'm not talking about petty jealousy. I know women get angry over things like that - and they hit and scream - but I haven't witnessed a man who was so FRIGHTENED of a woman that he couldn't get in his truck and drive off...and keep going."

He would have to, once the woman in question lies to the police about him.
---------------------------------------

It is likely that the best solution to this problem is to forbid men and women from living together.

But then, that would not solve the domestic violence problem between lesbians which, from what I hear, is far higher than that of the "breeders".

LW should consider finding himself a journey. It will be a process that will sometimes feel like two steps forward, one step back. You certainly don't have to be worried about the transparency of the "gotta sort my sock drawer" excuse. It will send a clear message. If necessry, volunteer somewhere else if you need a fresh start. It is likely that you will be sucked back into the spineless 'yes' person you have been for years. Don't be afraid to change your mind about a commitment you fall into. Last time I checked, it's a free country and you are entitled to change your mind for any reason or no reason. Just do it. And please don't get a tattoo. If you haven't gotten one by now, it probably isn't your thing anyway.

I mean LW's behavior is spineless when engaged in 'yes' thing.

I am aware that yes, "nice guys" are really jerks, wimps and evil inside, trying to hide it, will never get a decent woman, will burn in hell, etc., etc., etc., etc.

However, I will note a certain life experience which I have seen a lot of males go through.

Back before I began projecting my "attitude" I was polite, pleasant, definitely not a doormat and I did say no to several unreasonable requests by potential girlfriends on many occasions. I resemble Pierce Brosnan (the younger version when I was younger). Yes, I enjoyed a good time (incl. non-sexual good times). But, I was clearly not a thug type. Coincidentally, I was completely invisible to the female gender throughout my high school years and early college, in spite of my appearance.

However, eventually I tried a different tact. Although I wasn't going to dress like a thug, I decided upon acting like a complete a$$hole. I was astounded by the sudden level of attention paid to me by the female gender. They were proverbially lining up for me ("next"). It amazes me just how different the majority of the female gender views me now. Suddenly to them, I'm "cool" and "hot" at the same time.

Too bad. However, I have become accustomed to acting out of my character and it works like a charm. I don't like the situation, but, whatever works...........

"When I've tried acting like a bad boy, I'm told I come off angry or antisocial"

Well, 'bad boys' tend to be genuinely angry or antisocial. If you're not really either, then you'd just be 'acting'.

There are however degrees between "total doormat" and "Mr angry anti-social". Next time people try walk all over you by taking advantage of your kindness and having you e.g. 'clean up for them', *just say no* and stick to that. You don't have to be angry, you can just say no calmly and guilt- and obligation-free .. there's nothing wrong with saying no. (An angry response usually stems from a misguided sense that any request from anybody must be obliged.)

It sounds to me like you have a case of "can't-say-no-itis". The cure is to "just say no" a lot more (and stop feeling guilty about it ... it's adding insult to injury that anyone else should expect you deserve to feel guilty for not allowing them to take advantage of you).

I think I might've read on this forum that 'we teach people how to treat us'. People are generally horrible things, and they will literally take advantage of you as far as you allow them to.

SM777: "However, I have become accustomed to acting out of my character and it works like a charm. I don't like the situation, but, whatever works"

Well yes, it's a very well-established fact that many women are attracted to assholes, and only delusional and dishonest people deny that. But by "works", you mean "works" for what exactly - "getting" women to like you or want to sleep with you? In an indirect twisted way, this is just a sad kind of approval-seeking (from low creatures). I literally just don't give a crap whether women like me or not. It's not up to me to "earn" their "approval", nor is the "approval" of any creature that functions so primitively and dishonestly of any value to me.

It's giving such women far too much of a compliment to stoop to lend their values legitimacy.

Frankly I think it's beneath a real man's dignity to literally denigrate his own character just to grovel for some snatch. I prefer having integrity of character than playing primitive monkey games. It's taken me some time to get to that point.

"Maybe I should start smoking or get a motorcycle...maybe a tattoo?"

Oh yes. Smoking is just dumb. But getting a motorcycle is not a bad idea; I noticed that I did often get judged a bit differently and more seriously when I got one.

"When I've tried acting like a bad boy, I'm told I come off angry or antisocial"

One more thing I learned from my own similar experiences (I've gone through a very similar whole thing and radically changed everything in my life, including my personality), is that when you start toughening up and un-doormatting, some people who used to like you *will not like you anymore*. You might even lose some friends. Accept it. Move on. In fact, it's a *good thing*. You will make new friends, ones who would prefer the 'new you' and find it more natural (clearly you're not happy with the way you are now, so it probably isn't necessarily genuinely "you").

By being a doormat, by definition you will have attracted people into your life that like doormats, and they will obviously complain that you come across as too gruff if you start being more self-assertive. Get rid of such people, they're bad for you. Find people who *like* the more bad-ass you (yes, you'll find such people, don't be afraid people won't like you) - hang around those people more, you will find that over time that helps validate your new persona, which helps make you feel more comfortable with it and grow into it. By hanging around more 'manly men' (e.g. if you get a motorcycle, make some motorcycling friends), you will also naturally have better 'role models' whose behavior would then also be more inclined to rub off on you.

Old family and friends who've known you "forever" might never accept your personality change. So be it. Their problem.

I've quickly learned to *like* my new gruff self, and really don't care who likes it or doesn't, but then again I genuinely have a strong angry and anti-social personality component, and just used to behave very passively and submissively as a result of aspects of my childhood.

"Find somebody who isn't a doormat, and act like you think they would in a situation -- while working to figure out who you are. It's sort of training wheels to becoming a strong you."

Precisely.

In my view, the concept of "getting in touch with your inner self" is a false one ... sure there is a "you", but it's not an immutable thing that you "find". It is not easy, but with effort and work put into it, we have a great amount of ability to literally *re-invent ourselves* - the "you" of tomorrow is not something you "find" but something you *actively create*. You decide who you want to be, and you envision that, and bit by bit you behave according to your vision, and eventually it becomes natural - eventually it becomes who "you" actually are. Sure in the beginning there is some level of "pretending" and emulating and one might even say "acting" ... but it's like training wheels, just keep "practicing" the personality that you want, and you become that. We already know that LW doesn't like who he currently is ... it's not so much a matter of "finding" who he is but *deciding* and *creating* a desired new self.

When I was in college I was the doormat type and had two groups of friends I hung out with. One took advantage of my doormat nature (but thankfully only to a small extent) and other didn't. Well after college (which I didn't finish because of lack of $$$) I changed quite a bit. Funny thing is I used to call a good friend of mine (a member of the group that didn't take advantage of my doormate nature) an ass all the time for being so "mean" but now I find myself doing a few of the exact same assholish things that he does. Long story short I still keep in contact with one group of friends and I haven't had any contact with the other in almost 6 years.

The biggest thing that helped me changed were some bad things happening that (and they weren't even the result of someone using my doormat nature) caused me to basically say, "F@*k it." and start thinking about myself for a change. So the LW does have a bit of a point in that he needs to became a bit of a badass but changing his outer perception (tattoos, pack of cigs rolled up in his sleeve...) won't do much good if he doesn't have the inner changes to go with it.

Lobster:
You decide who you want to be, and you envision that, and bit by bit you behave according to your vision, and eventually it becomes natural - eventually it becomes who "you" actually are.
Good advice. Whenver you come across a situation stop and think about how the person you want to be would handle it then act accordingly

"...I decided upon acting like a complete a$$hole. I was astounded by the sudden level of attention paid to me by the female gender."

Women that are very interested in bad boys are usually all about proving something to themselves, how the 'power of their love', or the level of their own hotness will melt this bad boy's heart. It's an ego trip for them, and once they've broken through the tough guy exterior, they lose interest.

I spent a brief time in counseling for this very thing - being a doormat. My counselor said something brilliant to me after listening to a couple sessions of my whining.

"A doormat is someone who keeps sliding herself(himself) under other people's feet."

>

Exactly. What drove me crazy when I was young was all those people who told me to "be myself." I was a teenager, for chrissake - I didn't have a "self" yet and was trying to figure out what to create. I was a nerdy little dork who got bullied all the time - obviously my current "self" wasn't getting the job done, and telling me to continue being that person was nothing but bad, bad advice. Remember that, the next time you talk to a teenager.

Chrissy, you nailed it: "Women that are very interested in bad boys are usually all about proving something to themselves, how the 'power of their love', or the level of their own hotness will melt this bad boy's heart."

SM777 acts like a jerk in order to get attention from these little gems, which just shows that he's, as Lobster so eloquently put it, willing to denigrate his own character just to grovel for some snatch. Seriously, what could any self-valuing person have to try and prove to these stupid little tarts?

Also, I think Lobster has some serious game.

"...I think it's beneath a real man's dignity to literally denigrate his own character just to grovel for some snatch. I prefer having integrity of character than playing primitive monkey games. It's taken me some time to get to that point."

Amen.

unfortunately, most young men can't see past the mental fog created by all that testosterone. it takes time and experience to get to the point where you can ignore what your body wants and do what "you" want. and i wholeheartedly agree Lobster, seeking approval from anyone, women or men is a loser's game because you'll never really have it for long

'I think it's beneath a real man's dignity to literally denigrate his own character just to grovel for some snatch. I prefer having integrity of character than playing primitive monkey games. It's taken me some time to get to that point.'
'grovel for some snatch?!
integrity of character?!'
Sorry buddy, those two phrases simply don't belong in the same paragraph. No one who refers to women as 'some snatch' has any 'integrity of character' at all. And don't give me that misogynic bullshit that 'I'm not talking about ALL women, just the ones who DESERVE to be referred to as 'some snatch', (or 'bitches & ho's'). No man with any respect for women would talk that way. Ever. Would you talk that way to your mother? Would you tolerate anyone else talking that way ABOUT her? Well guess what, she's a member of the entire gender you crudely, universally denigrate.
Talk about 'primitive'!
'it's a very well-established fact that many women are attracted to assholes'
Guess what? Women haven't got a monopoly on being attracted to assholes. The world is full of people of both sexes who are assholes and people who are attracted to those assholes. In my experience, people have the kind of relationships they think they deserve, not the ones they say that they want.
I also think a lot of people who start out insecure and willing to put up with horrible behavior. But you learn and grow and change as you get older. I know I dated some real scum when I was a teenager. I was pre-programmed to do so. I was physically and emotionally abused growing up. It didn't take me too long though to figure out that I didn't need, want, or enjoy that kind of treatment, and I was not obligated to accept it. And I stopped being blinded by flowery words and what seemed initially like kindness and nice behavior, but which turned out to be a big act. In other words, I learned from my mistakes. The older you get, the better you get at judging character. (Hopefully!) You start to look at people's actions & attitudes, rather than being distracted by what they SAY about their actions and attitudes. ACTUAL nice guys have no trouble finding women and having good relationships. Immature jerks with one-dimensional ideas about women and no self-respect have trouble finding women and maintaining relationships. Not suprising. If you don't respect yourself, you're not going to respect anyone you date. The old 'I wouldn't belong to a club that would have me as a member' paradox. Which brings me to my last point. Take a look at the people with whom you surround yourself. Do they treat you like dirt? Do they act like assholes? Then why would you be suprised when they date other assholes? Why would you bother with them in the first place? What do you see in them in them?
Do YOU bother with women who are kind and considerate? Or do you look right past them in favor of flashy self-absorbed 'bad girls'? Men who whine about what nice guys they are and 'women don't want nice guys' has no respect for women, adolescent ideas about them, and isn't a nice guy. Nice women look for nice men who actually deserve to be with them.
Take a look at yourself 'Too Nice'. You can't change anyone else. And putting on a 'bad-boy act' isn't changing yourself, it's just a perpetuation of your same old adolescent attitudes and behavior, under a different guise. In other words, it's nothing more than an elaborate effort to AVOID making any real changes and still somehow manipulate other people to do what you want. Passive-aggressive to the nth degree. Not nice. Not nice at all. It makes you come off as 'angry and anti-social' because that's exactly what you are. What exactly do you imagine to be attractive about a whiny, resentful doormat who likes to pretend he's a bad boy?
I married a nice guy, not one who liked to think he was. We are still happy 17 years later.
How did you manage to spend 55 years on this planet and learn so little?
Grow the fuck up.

"No man with any respect for women would talk that way. Ever."

If anyone here knows of a woman who hasn't ripped on a man: father, brother, boyfriend, lover or husband, or accused some random male of having a small dick, at some point in their lives, i'd love to know about it.

Sounds suspiciously like "There's no excuse for hitting a woman. Ever."; but how many women suffer cognitive dissonance about slapping a man because "he deserves it".

it's you who is lacking respect redblue; and being pretty damn hypocritical to boot

Redblues: "No one who refers to women as 'some snatch' has any 'integrity of character' at all."

Oh I'm sorry, I must ask forgiveness for your poor comprehension skills. It was my mistake to assume you would understand basic literary devices such as framing and contrasting an alternate, opposing point of view in the language of the holder of that opposing point of view in order to emphasize the contrast between the attitudes.

I thought it was incredibly obvious from the context in my prose that the whole point of using a phrase like "some snatch" was to portray a mock-parody of those who actually hold the misogynist views, not mine. I couldn't possibly have imagined that I should've lowered my writing standards to some primitive sub-English.

I suppose I'll have to point out the elements of sarcasm and other not-so-subtleties in this post too.

Lobster, I'm with you; redblues stepped on her own crank. (How's that for a mixed metaphor?)

And: "is that when you start toughening up and un-doormatting, some people who used to like you *will not like you anymore*." This is a totally excellent point. People who have grown accustomed to taking advantage of you won't like it when they can't do that anymore. When that happens, you have to say scroom, and move on. Other commenters have mentioned various things they did, and I don't think the specific thing matters as much as just doing something to shake up your life. And part of that will likely involve getting a new, higher-class, group of friends.

There's just one point I'd modify, and it has to do with the advice to the LW about the bike. LW, if you want a motorcycle for image purposes, I think that's the wrong reason. On the other hand, if you want a motorcycle because you've always secretly wanted one, then by all means, go get one.

"If anyone here knows of a woman who hasn't ripped on a man: father, brother, boyfriend, lover or husband, or accused some random male of having a small dick, at some point in their lives, i'd love to know about it."

I've never ripped into any man in that way. I've always been a nice person, and I was also a doormat when I was younger, until I got less naive. I learned about boundaries as I got older, and only dated guys that I respected and that treated me with respect.

Redblues: "Well guess what, she's a member of the entire gender you crudely, universally denigrate"

Firstly, I don't believe in collectivism - women are not one borg-like collective, they are varied individuals: Your argument is both a fallacy of composition ("you've insulted member X of set Y therefore you've insulted all members of set Y" - uh, no, false, sorry) and a strawman fallacy.

Secondly, I didn't "universally" denigrate anyone - read my text again, this time without the huge chip on your shoulder blocking the screen and facts. Frankly, you're a tyrant; I pity your "nice guy" husband, who I'm guessing is whipped.

The gentlemen's response to my argument that referring to women as 'some snatch' implies misogyny are as follows:
OtherJim's excuse: You started it!
No, I didn't refer to any man by the size(unless 'bad boys'is a degrading slur meaning 'small penis') or presence of his genitals. In fact, I have never spoken that way in my life. It wouldn't occur to me. So, your dreams have come true. You finally know about a woman who has never referred to her 'father(!?!) lover(?!?!), boyfriend(?!?), husband(?!?) or some random male(?!?!)' by any euphamism at all for 'small penis'. Kindergarten answer: Two wrongs don't make a right anyway, if it had happened. It didn't. Factually incorrect, and a red herring. I am talking about *Lobster's* words, on *this* board. So when you go on to say that I am 'damn hypocritical' and insulted men's penis size while objecting to misogynic language, you are wrong. It didn't happen. Read what I wrote. Penis size is a male hang-up anyway. Trust me, if you're not a freak of nature, you're great. (RH)-'Sounds suspiciously like "There's no excuse for hitting a woman. Ever."; but how many women suffer cognitive dissonance about slapping a man because "he deserves it". Again, I didn't say that. You did, OtherJim. Personally, I don't think there's an excuse for hitting *anyone*. And my advice is the same in any event: Leave, yesterday. Tell the cops.(Yes, men too.)No exceptions. Anyone who hits you will hit your kids. Anyone who starts hitting you will never stop. 'she hit me first' is not an acceptable excuse even in kindergarten. Is that person pointing a gun in your face? Trying to push you off a mountain? Do what you have to. But otherwise, no excuse for anyone hitting anyone. Also, irrelevant to my objection to Lobster's use of language in his post. A red herring.
Lobster's next (RH)-sarcasm, hostility, and insults directed at my educational backround. There is no better way to say: "I have no logical argument to what you wrote." than your 'argument' is just pompous hostility combined with the ever popular, passive-aggressive 'It was just a joke!' excuse. Please. Own your words, or don't write them.
You do, eventually, respond with an actual argument to my original statement, To which I respond: your choice of words says otherwise. Degrading words which reduce specifically women, specifically to their genitals, belie more hostility against women than you apparrently realize you are portraying. If you truely don't think of women in that manner, find some other way of expressing yourself, without the pointless misogyny. But I think you do regard *specifically* women with a great deal of hostility. You yourself said 'you don't give a damn whether women like you or not'. If you mean 'people', say 'people', if you mean 'women', well, why don't you care or not care to the same degree for men or women?
You end the post with (RH) 'I'm guessing your husband must be whipped' First, let me remind you again, this is not an argument at all. It is an attempt to change the subject by insulting me and my husband, or trying to. (Or is it a 'mock parody'?) That is an admission that you *lost* the argument. It is also misogynic. Responding to an accusation of misogyny with.....more misogyny, simply illustrates my original argument. It sounds more like *you* are the (RH/insult instead of argument) 'tyrant', or expect to be. If that is the case than I can indeed understand how you might consider it tyranny for a woman tell you that you sound like a misogynist, or at least write like one.
'Read my text again, this time without the huge chip on your shoulder blocking the screen and facts.'

LOVE this advice column, rad advice Amy! I feel I should say something about the Lobster/Redblues war on here: I'm a feminist, burlesque performer, bookkeeper, but basically a "guy's gal", most of my friends are dudes. I'm engaged to a "nice guy" who happens to have moments of "badassery", who's hilarious but is not a fan of feminism, even though he's going to marry a very vocal one! That said, I thought Lobster's "snatch" comment was hilarious, Why? I'm an old school English Honors nerd and I like the way some words sound when people speak (type) them, I like alternative meanings to words, I get off on talking about anything, if I MUST have a reason. More to the point, I assume Lobster is a MAN and that's how men talk; perhaps b/c you've been married so long to a possibly more genteel, soft spoken person this seems crass, although I find it hard to beleive that even someone as angelic as your man has NEVER used the word "cunt, pussy, bitch" etc, even if he's never said it in front of YOU does not mean he never says it, or that he never has thoughts about "bitches" or "pussies". As nice as he is, I'm sure he encounters a "dumb snatch/beaver" on a daily basis, I do! :) And I'm not quite 30, but why is it that "misogyny" is this hot button, automatically "wrong" issue, no matter what context? Is it b/c I'm an 80s baby? I'm a fan of hip hop so my threshold for women being degraded is lower than the 1st wave feminists of the 70s? I wonder...

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