One of the reasons women are hard to figure out.

An old girlfriend had a friend (Ann) that would complain about not having a boyfriend.
One day they had a girls night out at a popular club. The old girlfriend said this nice looking guy came up and asked Ann to dance and she said no thanks I'm talking to my friends. My old girlfriend told her- "Why didn't you dance with him? You can talk to us any time." Ann said "Maybe he will come back over and ask again." My old girlfriend said "he's not coming back over" and he never did. Ann would also wear her grandmother's wedding ring on her ring finger as though she were married. And she still couldn't fathom why she didn't have a boyfriend. She was completely clueless.

So? If you want Dorothy Parker, don't go to a sports bar in Dumpsville.

David M - you old GF's friend sounds more like she wanted to have something to complain about than actually have a boyfriend.

Far too many people today can't seem to feel *anything* except resentment and anger. If they don't have a reason, they will manufacture one.

Wearing a wedding band, and saying 'no' to every guy who came along is a sure way to make sure she's alone, and continue to have a reason to feel the world has done her wrong.

Sad.

My wife works with a younger woman who travels everywhere with her gay boyfriend. That works, too.

There's a lot of bitterness out there eminating from both men and women, from what I've seen/heard lately. Even the ones that do have someone in their lives. Serious discontent, and I have no idea what is causing it. BF and I are quite happy, and we get confused when we're out and about and people seem to be just so miserable. It's sad, really. I mean, we went out to dinner this past Saturday night for my birthday, to the local pub we always go to, and we sat at the bar, ordered dinner, watched the game, and all around us, we were hearing things like: (one woman to another) "Well, if he's such an asshole, why do you want me to go out with his friend? Just so we can double-date? That's stupid!" (I'm assuming the one meant the other's boyfriend) and (guy to woman friend) "she's making me miserable and I'm stuck because if I leave, she'll take everything I own." and BF heard one guy say to another "come on, what do you mean she won't put out? Didn't you buy her enough shit already?" What is wrong with people? o.O

What is wrong with people?

My guess: entitlement. People feel like they're entitled to everything, because their mommies told them so. And there's the coveted victim status. We (meaning Americans) all seem to be striving for the crown that makes us the Most Put Upon Person on the Planet.

I also marvel at the idea some people seem to have that if you count your blessings, then you either don't understand how bad the world really is or you are flaunting your good fortune in the face of others.

Yeah, I guess you hit the nail on the head, there, MonicaP. I mean, I could be a total bitch and be crying about how I haven't got a job, and my kids are pains in my ass, and my BF spends too much time at work or hunting, I guess. But I choose to look at it as, at least I'm collecting unemployment (for now), I've got my resume out there, and I'm actively looking for work; my girls are doing well in school and in the band; BF is gainfully employed (thank the gods) and he provides us with venison (which we just love!), so we really don't have it too bad. We're still alive, have a roof over our heads, and are able to feed and take care of ourselves. It's not like we can take that vacation to Florida this Christmas, but hopefully I'll get a job soon, and maybe we can go next year. I guess I tend to see the glass as half full or something. I can't dwell on the negative for too long, because it just tends to spill over into other every aspect of my life, and I won't have that. I just won't. If I'm flaunting my good fortune in the face of others, so be it. But why on earth would they complain about my good fortune and not concentrate on their own? Yeah I know, there's that entitlement thing again. But damnitall, where does it end? When does it end? People gotta understand, if you're not happy with yourself, there is NOTHING ELSE "out there" that's gonna make you happy.

I really like your advice to give the women the benefit of the doubt instead of automatically assuming the worst. It reminds me of last week's column, when the LW clearly went about the wrong way in demonstrating his interest to a coworker. I can just imagine the letter she would have written:

"What's with men lately? I try to make friendly conversation at work and they instantly buy me weird wild-life jewelry instead of ever asking me on a date."

Sometimes people are just awkward, not malicious.

I was curious about what other people would post here because I wasn't sure where to start with this topic. I agree with kevin-m, though: it it were me, I'd start by finding better places to hang out. Certainly not all women have nasty dispositions, although it's possible that all the women who hang out in a particular bar do. At some point, you have to realize that your experience is violating the law of averages, which is nature's way of telling you to do something different.

I'm really curious as to why Shannon thinks only women sould have the benift of the doubt

Didn't say that lujlp. Just said that I like Amy's advice for LW to give the benefit of the doubt to people that he's trying to pick up, which in this case happens to be women. If he was picking up men I'd have said the same, but he's not.

"I'd start by finding better places to hang out."
--Cousin Dave

I agree wholeheartedly. The world is full of women and most aren't in a bar at any given time. That said, when at the bar maybe LW could try to disarm them by being friendly. Say something like, "well, I'm a good listener. What's wrong with cops and govt workers?" If she's giving one word answers while staring blankly at the commercials on during the game, maybe take the hint and move on. But, ya never know, she might just "melt" a little and engage with you.

I find that when someone in public - say checking out at the supermarket or another passenger on the metro - seems to have an off tone that is rude/aggressive/etc for no reason at all it really helps to smile and say 'I hope your day gets better'. I'm surprised by how often that gets a wan smile in return.

As a woman, often it is flattering to be approached by a man who finds you attractive. But often, guys will approach whatever woman they see out of desperation. Anyway, sometimes, women don't WANT to be approached by men, they aren't interested in being with a man that moment, or aren't interested in meeting a man at the bar. Perhaps, they just wanted to be alone. At a bar. It happens. WHen I go out with a girlfriend, we might be having a very serious or intimate conversation and then some man thinks it's his duty and right to just come up and interrupt us as if what he has to say is so important. We usually shoo those kinds off.

David M - the ring thing is interesting. I have a cheap Russian triple wedding ring on the ring finger of my *right* hand (parting present from an old ex-girlfriend), and a gold wedding band (friendship ring from the last one) on the second finger of my left. When I was attached but not married I used to wear a ring on my left hand ring finger instead - on purpose, my standard answer to questions was "I'm not married but yes this is from the specific person I'm not married to".

The problem I find is you get really attached to the damn things, you feel weird if you ever take them off. I'm not even sure if I can get the one on the right hand off anymore. So maybe she just likes the feel of it, another argument for asking people politely but directly to gain information - "I see you have a wedding ring, how's your husband/married life/whatever" - that way you find out what you want to know without looking like a total sleaze.

On the other hand, maye she could get it resized for another finger if she really wants a BF. I agree he ain't coming back if she's knocked someone back once while wearing a wedding band.

I'm really curious as to why Shannon thinks only women sould have the benift of the doubt
Posted by: lujlp at November 18, 2009 11:07 AM

Didn't say that lujlp.
Posted by: Shannon at November 18, 2009 11:31 AM

Yes you did

I really like your advice to give the women the benefit of the doubt instead of automatically assuming the worst.
Posted by: Shannon at November 18, 2009 10:06 AM

See?

"On the other hand, maye she could get it resized for another finger if she really wants a BF. I agree he ain't coming back if she's knocked someone back once while wearing a wedding band."

Absolutely. Why would I go back to get rejected again? As an aside: In the ballroom dancing world, repeatedly turning down dances without a good reason is an effective way to ensure that no one ever asks you for a dance, ever again. Obviously the club world isn't the same, but that's no excuse for broadcasting obviously mixed signals.

lujlp, I'm looking at the quote, but don't see where in Shannon's answer she says that _only_ women should be given the benefit of the doubt, while men should not. Clarify this?

That's funny, I get hit on all the time while wearing my wedding band. I've never actually had the impression that men pay attention to the damn things.

Um. I said "the women," as in the specific women that LW is trying to pick up. But if it makes you feel better, I think LW should give the benefit of the doubt to the men he tries to pick up at bars too. =)

What on earth is this guys pickup line that more than one woman has started blathering about what kind of guys she keeps meeting?

Something isn't right here and I'm not willing to place any blame on the women at this point.

Melissa wrote:

"That's funny, I get hit on all the time while wearing my wedding band. I've never actually had the impression that men pay attention to the damn things."

Odd. A wedding ring is one of the first things I look for. Wearing a ring on the left ring finger: off limits. No limits: fair to approach. Right ring finger: instant conversation opener.

I once made a joke about the demoralizing remarks that women sometimes do to guys at the bar with the audacity to try and speak to them.

The ladies I was speaking to pointed out that there is in some guys a sense of entitlement that they need to be on the lookout for. "I buy you drink, now spread it."

With this in mind, I think Amy's reply was spot on. Some people have guarded replies in meeting someone for the first time, as they don't know what the expectations are.

Doesn't anyone know the difference between the words "woman" and "women" anymore?

"Something isn't right here and I'm not willing to place any blame on the women at this point."

Suckup.

How a woman reacts to a man often has a lot to do with how a man feels about himself. Men should never assume a woman will or should be interested in them. If a woman expresses a lack of interest in a man, she's actually doing you a favor. It is better for men to not make much out of it. And a woman's who's more than occasionally negative probably isn't worth being around anyway. I'd rather be alone than in a relationship that doesn't work well. You can't mate a square peg to a round hole.

The crappy economy probably explains a lot of the negativity around. With 10% unemployment, the stress level is pretty damned high for many.

One of the worst things a man can do in his interactions with women is to gripe about a ex. I did this once on a first (and only) date. The poor woman pretty much recoiled, I don't blame her, she may have thought I had an animus against all women. Just introducing the topic caused the trauma to resurface in me and it came out badly. And it was socially dumb and ackward side coming through, too.

With regards to relationships - and life - I think of the Latin (Roman) saying: "Ex nihili nihil est." (From nothing nothing is produced.)

I dunno...the whole "meet people in bars and clubs" world seems so depressing, complicated, and futile. I'm not happy with how my life turned out, mind you, but I am glad I don't deal with all the games and codes.

Bar scenes can take on such a life of their own. In my single days, while at a bar with a friend, having a great time, listening to the live band, drink in my hand, a guy (total stranger) standing behind me placed both his hands on my butt cheeks and squeezed. I could not believe it. I turned and told him (frostily but politely) to remove his hands. His reply was "what a bitch; you must be PMS-ing". Yes, some people have a very surreal sense of entitlement, where it comes from, i don't know. But it is entitlement that others can sense a mile away, and if you're toting it, beware, cuz you'll get nowhere, fast. There are always rotten apples in every barrel. Don't let that stop you from speaking to others, though, and remember that when someone spews a bad attitude, it is 99.999% to do with them, not you.

Avoid the problem with bars, people: Go To College.

You are guaranteed to meet people with the same interests you have - and if you don't find someone droolworthy, you still get college credits!

@Lobster...I'm a hetero woman. Female. Long red hair, 36dds, big blue eyes. Attractive enough to be hit on by males 18-80. Attractive enough that I have been followed from my gym to the grocery store *by car*--I was lucky I didn't go straight home. I have *never* wanted to respond to even the most awkward p/u line by rambling about the types of guys I meet.

I want to know (a) what the hell is the p/u line and (b) what this guy looks like. No, I take that back. I also want to know what kind of girls he's hitting on. I'd be willing to bet that he's a 2-3 targeting 8-10's. Cause that's almost always the problem. Turtle earring guy in a previous letter? Likely pursuing a woman way out of his league. If these men were going after Mavis in the applique kitten sweatshirt they might get some play. Instead they set themselves up for failure and then get angry about how bitchy and shallow women are. And that puts them firmly in the scary/icky category. Mr 2-3? Got news for you. If you are ignoring women in your own attractiveness bracket, you are *just as shallow.*

And Radwaste, I don't think this has anything to do with the bar scene. Same stuff happens in offices, at college, the gym, the grocery store...
It's just lack of accurate self assessment in how to present oneself to a prospective date--or if romantic overtures are even welcome.

Megan: "But often, guys will approach whatever woman they see out of desperation."

deathbysnoosnoo: "I'd be willing to bet that he's a 2-3 targeting 8-10's. Cause that's almost always the problem."

You know, you both sound a lot like many of the women I knew in my (and their) 20s. Too cool for school and certainly far too awesome to talk to someone desperate enough to actually say hello to you.

I know many of the same women now, in their mid to late 30s, still single, and the complaint has now become that men never approach them, why can't they get a bf, etc. Life has a sense of irony.

but yes snoosnoo, you do sound ever so sparkly and amazingly fantastic. no problems with your "self-assessment" hey? (though presumably a 2-3 who hits on 8-10s also overreaches to hit on 5-6s so maybe don't get carried away with the gym stalkers)