Seems to be a common issue on your website.

I was like this when I was young. I wish I had read your advice many, many years ago. It's spot on.

There's a fine line between thoughtful (I've been listening, yes I understand what you want, etc)which is best kept for when you're already in a relationship, and creepy - as you say Amy "I've been logging your every word for the past two years and went to the mall and shopped based on the transcripts."

Sorry to say I've on occasion been in the latter category. I would say to the LW - you think it's nice to give gifts and so on, but trust me it puts women off big time. To them it feels like you've already decided you're in a relationship without consulting them. Something I'm working on too (I tend to pay for coffees/drinks/meals even with platonic friends just because I want to - makes some people very uncomfortable).

In the meantime, here's a handy translation guide for you:

"We'll see" - means no

"I'll consider it" - means no

"I'm not ready for a relationship" - means no

"You're a nice/sweet guy but..." - followed by anything - means no

"I'm really busy with work/family/friends at the moment" - well, there's some wiggle room here, but depending on body language probably means no.

"Sure, but I'm going away for a couple of months - can we catch up when I get back" - fine, you're in with a chance :) What you should have done in the first place instead of waiting a year.

But then who am I to talk.

Damn it, missed the last translation

"It would be weird" - means - get away from me you creep.

I don't think you really are (more charitably I could translate as "oops I've led this guy on too far, have to correct the situation), just be aware that's how it comes across. If you've asked twice without a positive response - drop it.

Yeah it hurts.

Agreement on all of the above, but, did she actually accept the earrings?

On both occasions?

I know I'm behind on the dating and mating rituals of the day, but that seems a little questionable. I know I wouldn't accept even junk jewelry from someone I wasn't interested in. I wonder if she ever wore them.

Anyway, it was years ago, and he's still brooding about it? I think I know where the tortoise comes into this.

In my experience Pricklypear, accepting gifts doesn't mean much - she could have been too embarrassed to turn them down. All that does of course is to make her more and more uncomfortable till she says something like "that would be weird".

If you turn them down up front then I salute you - not all women are that clear about their intentions. And not all us guys are that good at reading what women think are very obvious signals :)

Yeah, I'm pretty archaic I guess, and always have been. A guy I knew was involved with my best friend. He was collecting unemployment at the time, but he asked me what I thought about him putting some money down on an emerald necklace for my friend. I told him she probably wouldn't accept it and would consider it a waste of his money, since he wasn't employed, etc.

I told her about it. She said hell yes she would have taken it, which just shows how out of it I am. (I still think I'm right, though. Nothing new there.)

I wouldn't call it archaic, more good manners and common sense - as Amy frequently points out, it's the man's job to do the asking (damn you and your evolution Amy, can't I sit at home waiting for someone to parachute into my lap!), but with that comes the parallel responsibility for the woman to say yes or no. I can handle rejection, but being kept hanging - no malice I should point out, the times it's happened it was genuinely to spare my feelings - is no fun.

Glad I've worked out some of the code now - and no disrespect to your friend, but she sounds a little mercenary, I suppose there's nothing wrong with accepting a freely offered gift from someone you're involved with, but from the situation you describe I think your advice was right.

It sounds to me like the girl is accepting gifts because she's probably telling herself that she doesn't want to make this guy feel like total shit by saying no thanks, even if he is the office creep.

The truth of the matter is that she's as gutless as he is. Yes, maybe the guy will be hurt, but he'll get over it. It is rather interesting that they at least have that much in common. And they'd spare both themselves and their prospects/suitors a lot of grief if they simply said what's on their minds.

Not in every situation, of course, but when it comes to asking someone out/being asked out. Yes, there's potential fallout, but the longer the message goes unsaid, the worse it's going to be when it finally comes out.

Sorry, Amy, can't find your column at http://www.ocregister.com/sections/life/columns/amyalkon/
Please say that it's only a glitch and notning bad happened there...

I didn't notice in your column, but I did notice in a few of the comments. It must make normal women feel odd when a guy gives them a gift, like jewelry, before even a first date. In this case, months before asking for a date.

I'm not shy about gifts after it looks like we are going to be together for a while, but before a first date? Not seeing it.

I think Patrick got it right (don't faint, Patrick! lol!), I think they're both a little gutless. If you don't want to lead someone on, you don't accept a gift from them, period. Backbones, people, backbones! Replace your wishbones with them!

o.O

Groan. Why do guys make this so hard on themselves? Stop it, letterwriter, immediately.

Women will signal their interest in a potential mate. Do they genuinely smile (not that polite turn-up of lips, but the real "pow" smile that someone happy has on their face) when you come up to them? Do they face their body toward you when speaking to them, perhaps even lean in to further close distance? Grooming behavior when you approach or speak to them? Arm touches? Much laughter, even when your jokes really are not that funny? They find excuses to be in your line of sight? Requests for help when none is really needed? Bingo.

Absence of that behavior? Meh, then your chances are not so good.

Oh sure, in the romantic comedies the guy chases a reluctant woman who comes to love the man for his tenacity. In real life, that gets you a restraining order. DON"T DO THAT!!!!

Woman know pretty fast if you qualify as dateable. If you do, they start throwing out the signals. Yeah, sure there is always the situation where people say "I never thought of dating him until X, now we are happily married!" But guys should play the odds, not the anecdote.

If she is not into you at the outset, and does not signal that to you, move on. That rule is ten times more true when dealing with a workplace situation. Way too much drama if you misinterpret things at work.

As you see in your life now and the comments above, clumsy workplace attempts to initiate romance may cause the gal go into the mode you where people label you "creepy" and ostracize you. Once the gals start to rally the sisterhood in the workplace about your perceived creepiness, you are screwed.

For guys, romantic cluelessness in the workplace has potential consequences, serious ones. To protect your job, I would go to ground on this one. Be polite when you see her, but avoid her, and do not, under and circumstances pursue this any further. You may right now be one stray word away from a sexual harassment claim. No, I am not kidding or overreacting. Saw it happen to guys with depressing regularity in the office setting.

I feel better now. Here's the thing, now that I've thought about it. It's not just an old-fashioned rule. Presenting the female with a gift is a courtship tradition among many, many animals. Acceptance of the gift generally means your attentions are welcome. (Which is why, I believe, so many men think they own your ass if you let them buy you a drink.)

(Which is why, I believe, so many men think they own your ass if you let them buy you a drink.)

Ding ding ding ding ding!!

Dang. First "a-HA!" moment I've had in a long time! Pricklypear, you're a geeeenious!!

"As a gutsy guy who tried but struck out, you might even garner admiration from your co-workers for your approach -- "

Young Snake learned this lesson at sleepaway camp. Even 15-year old Abby, who turned me away to continue her torrid affair with the 19 year old counselor, told me I "had guts." Later that night I cleaned the boys out in poker. Best disspointment ever.

(Which is why, I believe, so many men think they own your ass if you let them buy you a drink.)

Well, it depends on where the tattoo is located whether or not the drink works.

*sigh* I wish you the best of luck on the ways to ditribute your message, Amy.

> No, rejection isn't fun, but it
> costs less than doing everything
> you can to avoid it.

This is indisputable, but hearing it said so matter-of-factly by women is always off-putting. "Rejection isn't fun" condenses many of those experiences beyond recognition. The nature of sex (in the best cultures) is that men pursue and women chose (Middle East excepted), so the challenge for women is simplistically binary: Yes or no. They shouldn't be glib about the intricate challenges of the other role.

Don't you hate it when you meet a mechanic at a cocktail party and he cheerfully warns you –between tugs at a beer bottle– that the transmission on your car has a huge failure rate?

Well, I think little forest animal earrings are cute. Everybody unloads on this poor guy because he pursued a woman by his own gentle path and comfort level.
This from Amy, who never asked a guy out in her life--that's not gutless?
Yes, it is better just to pop the question and win or lose. That's the way it goes.
After a while, guys realize that winning (and finding out what you "won") is not always really winning. In fact, most "wins" turn into major disappintment, as your learn all of your new mate's modern-day female problems and standards.
But then, I am tri-polar who suffers from priapism, and I use Ritalin under my armpits to hold down the smell.

"It sounds to me like the girl is accepting gifts because she's probably telling herself that she doesn't want to make this guy feel like total shit by saying no thanks, even if he is the office creep."

She sounds like a greedy bitch to me. Sorry, but implying that someone is weird is really not a very nice thing to do under any circumstances. She can lie if she has to, and say she's going out with someone.

Don't call someone weird, or strange or anything even close to being a synonym. Those sorts of comments really hurt, and have a tendancy to burr into one's sense of self-worth. Especially in the workplace. At least, not if you don't want to be the first target when they come in with a semi-automatic and 1000 rounds of ammo.

For the painfully shy who could never actually ask a woman out, consider Toastmasters or Dale Carnegie. It's easier to talk to one person than to give a speech to an audience. If you can talk to an audience, you can probably convince yourself that you can do anything.

"I learned that [asking men out] is a bad strategy for a women, and stopped asking men out."

. . . and that would be the exact same lesson learned by a very attractive associate of mine, who, once she stopped asking men out, began attracting the type of man she would eventually marry.

The thing about accepting or refusing the gift is - he clearly wasn't doing it in an asking-out context and might not even have made his interest clear. Refusing a (fairly innocous) gift because it wouldn't be right to accept it, implies that the refusing party assumes there is a sexual/romantic context. And she might simply not have.

That made no sense. I mean, she might not have assumed, or wanted to avoid assuming, that he wanted more, so just taken things at face value. Not because she's awkward or trying to make life hard for him, but because it might not have occurred to her that he was interested, or she wasn't sure and wanted to avoid looking like a bitch in pre-emptively turning someone down.

(What I thought was a good friend broke ties with me and claimed I'd led him on for a year. Hearing that was actually the first time I heard about his interest in me!)

Sorry, but implying that someone is weird is really not a very nice thing to do under any circumstances.

She didn't say that he was weird, she'd told him that 'it would be weird' if they were to go on a date. Though it seems that she's been gossiping about him with her coworkers, which isn't cool.

Frankly his behavior does seem a little weird. But she'd also lead him on. So she really shouldn't be surprised that he continued to pursue her.

-----
This is indisputable, but hearing it said so matter-of-factly by women is always off-putting.

What women often don't recognize is that beyond the let down of being rejected there's also an X factor arising from how the woman will behave afterwords.

There's a substantial minority of women who don't react well to being asked out by men that they're not interested in; they find it offensive. And there's a tendency for these women to interpret the subjective experience of being offended as an objective act of harassment or threatening behavior.

So for men, it's not as simple as just taking your lumps. You've got to consider the potential repercussions. This is why it's not a good idea to approach women in professional settings. I even avoid women who are too close to my social circle.

"She sounds like a greedy bitch to me. Sorry, but implying that someone is weird is really not a very nice thing to do under any circumstances. She can lie if she has to, and say she's going out with someone."

This is a bad idea. A lot of girls tell white lies to let a guy down gently: "I'm really busy right now" "Sorry, I'm not dating right now," etc. They think that they're being nice by protecting the guy's feelings, but they're doing no favors by leading him on. And pretending that you have a boyfriend when you don't isn't even a white lie-it's a flat out whopper. It's going to be basically impossible to keep up this pretense, and it's a huge slap in the face when the rejectee inevitably finds out the truth.

And accepting LW's gifts hardly makes the co-worker a "greedy bitch." Let's be honest: who actually wants turtle earrings? More likely she accepted them because it's rude to say no to a gift, especially from someone that you work with everyday.

More likely she accepted them because it's rude to say no to a gift, especially from someone that you work with everyday.

Right? and therein lies the rub: she doesn't want to say 'no' and offend the guy, but she doesn't want to accept them and potentially lead the guy on. So what should she do? Me, I'd have to be honest and say, "wow, these are really nice, and I appreciate that you thought of me, but I really can't accept them." But I just don't know what kind of response I'd get. What if he's all "oh please, take them. I want you to have them." and then is subtly seething? What if he thinks she's just encouraging him? It's a difficult position to be in, for both of them. Best bet is to just not accept them, for her; and for him, not to offer up a gift of that kind before he's even asked her to have a cup of coffee with him, even.

Poor guy sounds pretty akward. Men, don't buy gifts for women before you even ask them out. A date doesn't have to be a huge production; lunch or coffee are fine. "Want to run down to XXXX's to grab a sandwich with me?" doesn't seem that difficult to spit out. If she says no, at least you know. If she says yes, try for happy hour next.
Giving her more trinkets after she's turned you down (or appears to be avoiding you) isn't going to make her want to go out with you. To me, jewelry is a pretty personal gift, and I wouldn't want it from someone I wasn't dating yet.

Butt, you're not thinking rationally. I'm sure she's asked men out before, a great deal of women have done that.

What is the result? They end up with men who didn't have the balls to ask them out.

If you were a chick, would you want a guy without the guts to say "Wanna go out for coffee?"

Women asking men out is a BAD idea.

Men need to learn how to ask women out again.

Women need to learn how to turn them down politely but without ambiguity.

I must be the only man on earth who never thought less of a woman who asked me out first. Maybe I am too into that actual equality 'crap?'

Anyway, I can agree that it is not a good strategy for women in general, until the run into me. I will say that about half were not welcome, the other half ended up in at least one date, some several. My longest non-marriage relationship was with an "older woman" who approached me in a bar, but I am the one who asked her over for dinner, that I cooked. We were together, in one way or another, for seven years.

Off topic: My latest take on the Palestian-American Terrorist Major is here.

You're not the only one John, I like forward women, would never think less of a woman who asked me out (or flirted like hell then just kissed me because I wasn't getting the hint to be more accurate). I think Amy's point though is that the woman will often end up thinking less of a guy when she had to make the first move. I think as a general statement this is pretty fair, but there are always exceptions of course.

I've done my share of the asking too, I find it really hard but eventually I suck it up, check my balls are still there (metaphorically!), and do it. Seeing as I'm back on the market after 9 years I'm having to learn this all over again.

Can I kick off a weirdest request for a date competition? My entry is asking out a girl young enough to be my daughter (technically and only just) in a strip club while she was sitting naked on my lap...I was quite serious about it and she likes me enough not to take offence so it wasn't quite as creepy as it sounds. We were chatting about relationships at the time, she was actually asking my advice on how to deal with a guy that liked her but she wasn't too interested in, my answer was "ditch him and have dinner with me on Sunday".

Got knocked back but not thrown out, so I suppose that counts as a net win...

Flynne writes: "Best bet is to just not accept them, for her; and for him, not to offer up a gift of that kind before he's even asked her to have a cup of coffee with him, even."

True dat. Most likely the reason she accepted the gift is because it caught her so much by surprise that she couldn't think of a response at the moment. We can sum up today's lesson as: "Don't give presents to people that you don't know well."

LW is probably just a shy guy, but hopefully Amy's advice, along with the rest on this board, will turn him around and give him a new lease on life. Here's my 2 cents worth:

1) Forget about this co-worker. For all intents and purposes, she's a lost cause and you've blown it with her. Accept it as a lesson learned and move on. Don't give personal gifts to someone with whom you don't have a relationship. Those come AFTER you start dating

2) In the future, be casual. To echo what others have said, start with "Wanna have lunch?" If she says no, feel free to ask again at a later time. If she still declines, don't ask again. Take the hint. It's one thing to be persistent, another to be creepy.

3) Be cheerful about it on the outside, even if the rejection is killing you on the inside. Fake that it's no big deal and then throw yourself into other pursuits/interests and don't linger around looking at her longingly. Your MO should be, "Next?"

Good luck to you!

My advice, you "can't win" in this (the comments on this thread bear that out), so just say 'f-ck it' and do whatever you want, and damned be what people say. Fact is you'll never "do the right thing", the 'system' is designed that way - so just do what you feel like doing and screw what anyone else says. She was a b-tch anyway (this is clear since she obviously told lies about you around the office) - your problem is that you think this is somehow your fault, the result of your behavior, when the problem is really with other people.

Robert: "Women asking men out is a BAD idea."

That makes no sense. Women asking men out is just as bad or good idea as men asking women out. If a woman will resent or think less of a man who is too shy to ask her out, then a man can just as easily resent or think less of a woman who's waiting around for him to do the asking.

I believe that a date shouldn't take place until it's established that BOTH people have some sort of love or crush for the other, and so it doesn't matter who makes the next "move," for lack of a less icky-sounding word.

Amy,

Maybe some of us are just more advanced than you?

;)

Or...to add a word out of respect for our webhostess:

Maybe some of us are just more advanced than you THINK...

Amy is correct in that a woman should not pursue the sexual part of a relationship if she wants a long term relationship with the man. The man should do the pursuing in this phase. Most men will think less of a woman that is sexually forward. (I'm talking about the beginning of the relationship, now. After things are moving along in that area the woman should take the lead now and then)

However this does not apply to a woman asking a man out. Very few men will think less of a woman because she says "Lets go out for a bite to eat this Friday"

I know Amy doesn't believe this. But how many men have to explain it to her before she gives it creedence? Perhaps men actually have a clue as to how men think?

I think the correct way to do this would be to say, 'Are you going to ask me out? I would love to get to know you, and it would be nice to enjoy a bite to eat together'. This is called extreme flirting for guys who need it all spelled out for them (they don't get subtlety). The onus is still on the guy to close the deal, and courtship has begun!

Maybe if he tried earrings of sea creatures.

We were going to add or two cents here, but no need.

Your response is perfect and funny as hell!!

This guy definitely needs to find a "pair" and soon!

I believe that a date shouldn't take place until it's established that BOTH people have some sort of love or crush for the other

How in the hell would you develop a crush without spending time with someone first? Let's forget the love part because that's just plain stupid. People should feel love for one another BEFORE they date. Brilliant.

What do you mean, "how would you develop a crush?" You meet someone at work, or in school, or in your place of worship, or in the marching band/theatre group/co-ed softball team, and the two of you gravitate together, until one of you (it can be either one) asks the other one out. I've seen it happen for many other people, and it's how I want it to happen for me.

perro: "Amy is correct in that a woman should not pursue the sexual part of a relationship if she wants a long term relationship with the man. The man should do the pursuing in this phase. Most men will think less of a woman that is sexually forward."

While I agree with you that it's okay for a woman to ask out a man, I don't understand why it would be different in the area of sex, for those who wish to be sexually active (since many of us don't). Couldn't two people just talk about these things, to see what they think about it, with either person broaching the subject?

I would agree with John here about women asking men out - with all due respect to Amy for your very wise insights. Dep. on cultural imperatives at times its just practical for the woman to go ahead - i.e. I live in mexico and men here of the up mid - up class are just unsure about how to treat me - I ask them out or hint until its obvious because they are very reluctant to offend an obvious (v. blonde) foreigner. Sometimes the caveman metaphores need to be filtered into a multicultural y multiclass world

Amy,

What would be your advice to those of us with Asperger’s syndrome who actually are missing most of the social signals being sent? 35 years too late for me but it could help my son. Back then I was enamored with a very pretty bright young woman who was almost terminally shy and who didn’t understand why anyone would be interested in her. I was awkward, very funny, very handsome and intelligent (with the advance degrees as proof) and totally clueless. I made a total mess of it. How do such misfits overcome their anxiety to the point of being seen as a person and not a nerd or a pest?

a I think mousebert has a great question there.

I think women should go ahead and ask mean out. From my very limited sample I see the following: Of my peers and younger where I know (or at least think I do)... all the strong long term ones were initated by the women. All the ones that have ended very badly where started by the men. Of course, most I don't who started it.

I considered extreme flirting as initiating for the women. Specifically a former co-worker of mine says he started it, but everyone else says she all but moved his mouth to form the words and push on chest to get air to come out. When Amy writes about meeting her BF, I usually wonder if that was similar.

I think one of the problems (at least here) is that women don't flirt much. There was an locally oriented online forum that had an interesting thread where about 3/4 of women said that won't and shouldn't flirt with a guy at least a few dates. Over half said they only go on dates that have been introduced to them by friends. The forum seems to have been lost to time as I cannot seem to google it up.

Many people fix people up without really having any sense what the other person is looking for (if that person even does).

Amy you hit the nail on the head there - a friend of mine recently said he knew someone to fix me up with, although I'm not really looking at the moment I was a little interested - then he said "But you should know she hates smoking".

Now this guy has known me for 15 years and I've smoked all that time. Yes I'd love to give up, but that's something that would have to come first, it's not something I can commit to before the first date - I'm not going to lead someone on promising something I might not be able to deliver.

He was a bit hurt (he really was trying to help me), couldn't understand why I wouldn't do whatever it takes to meet someone. I tried to tell him that if I was going to give up smoking I'd be doing it for me, not as a prerequisite to a first date - and that I can live with being single for a while after several long term relationships. That part he really didn't get...

This advice is spot on.

For those of you bashing the woman as greedy -- oh, come on, the earrings sound hideous, and pretty cheap. I'm sure she never wore them, and that she didn't accept them out of greed. She probably didn't know what to do -- refusing what looks like a cheap gag gift from a colleague is awkward and insulting to the giver. He took her faltering "oh, you shouldn't have . . . really" as an invitation to buy more wildlife-themed jewelry. I feel sorry for him, but I actually feel more sorry for her.

If it were a really valuable gift, I'd agree she should have refused to accept it. And that reminds me of a really fun story in my own dusty past.

When I was waiting tables back in college, one of the customers (he'd been coming in alone for months and requesting my section) gave me a gold chain with a pearl and diamond pendant. He'd put it into an empty walnut shell -- I swear I'm not making this up! -- glued it shut, and then put the whole thing in a box and wrapped it. Don't ask why the walnut shell. I haven't the foggiest freaking idea.

I pried it open (at first I thought it was a gag gift of some kind, because of the stupid walnut shell), and as I pulled out the necklace, he asked me out to dinner. I promptly handed the necklace back and declined both it and the dinner invitation. He got angry at me -- I suppose I'd been leading him on with all that coffee pouring and plate-clearing -- and stalked out of the restaurant (no tip, either, the bastard). The next day he wrote a ten-page, single-spaced letter telling me what a bitch and a whore I was (he left the letter with the hostess, btw -- nice touch). My favorite line: "I have a genius IQ, but I don't suppose that would mean anything to YOU."

Good times, good times.

Really? I probably could have written that book! Why do you find out about great things you should have done, after someone else does them?U cant compare ios to console games. They are 2 diff animals. One has a control pad one doesnt. Compare ios to ios and console to console.Is there a menu option for the TIPB TV posts…or just sprinkled throughout the website? I thought there was a specific section for TIPB TV?It"s sort of like having a new iPad, except that my old one worked fine and the new one is incredibly slow. Am I the only one whose iPad runs at a snail"s pace post-upgrade? Safari takes at least 5 minutes to load a page. Apps take about 25 to 30 minutes to download. And yet, for some reason the speedtest.net app shows I"m getting normal transfer speeds. I have no idea what"s going on, but I want my old iOS back.