Wow. I get where she's coming from, but I also get where he's coming from too. He still misses her, but he needs to keep that more to himself. It's got to be hard to for the LW to keep hearing about his wife, but it sounds to me like he's really not over her yet. Maybe they should take a break? I have no idea what I'd do in this situation. I think I'd probably get tired of hearing about her all the time, and ask him if he really wants me around. If he answers in the positive I'd have to tell him how I really feel about hearing about his dead wife all the time, and then ask if he would tone it down. If he won't, I'd have to walk.

LOL. I have to laugh. Women are always telling guys to talk about their feelings and asking them to tell me what's on your mind? Right before they club them over the head.

He must be a caring thoughtful guy to remember her as he does.

However, Follow Amy's advice and in a neutral moment do as Amy says.

That is a tough one. Thirty years they were married, and now she's been gone for six. Like Flynne, I can kind of see where both of them are coming from. The man's wife was part of him for so long she'll never really go away. Maybe he's never had someone he could talk to about how he feels about missing her until he met our LW.

Still, it's tough on her, and he needs to understand that it's not fair to expect her to listen to all his stories about his late wife. His new girlfriend can't replace her. He shouldn't expect her to, and she shouldn't have to try to. But she shouldn't expect him to forget, either.

LW, first of all, let me say that my heart goes out to you. I can understand where you're coming from. My husband is a former widower. They were married nearly 18 years and then she was killed in a car crash on Christmas Eve; this year will be the 7 year anniversary. Left behind 3 children--then 15, 12 and 10, who are now my (mostly!) wonderful stepkids.

Part of being in a relationship like this that is quite unique in a society where divorce is much more likely to be the cause of second and third relationships--is understanding that it is different and accepting it.

With that said, it sounds as if your gentleman friend has not progressed very far along his personal "grief journey." There's no specific timeline for this; every individual is unique; the fact that they were married for 30 years and apparently had a strong relationship tends to favor a much longer grieving process. I'm wondering if he ever went through any counseling or grief therapy? What seems to be happening is LW is being thrust in the uncomfortable and painful position of having to be both a girlfriend and therapist. The two need to be distinctly different roles.

It is true that he'll never forget his wife of 30 years. But that doesn't mean that he can't build as strong and loving a bond with LW as he did with her. Different love, but equal. And part of loving LW will entail a concerted choice and effort that he'll have to make to respect her feelings in the matter. Meaning specifically, not uttering everything that comes to mind and being sensitive to the fact that she's feeling like a consolation prize by him talking about late wife non-stop.

I don't know about this one. I know Amy has extended exchanges with the LWs and knows more than we do, but my first instinct is to think that unless he's saying "Roll your tongue round the way my wife used to" in the bedroom she's being unreasonable. He calls her "my wife"? Well until you replace her honey, she still is. He mentions her constantly? There won't be a lot of conversation left when he edits out 30 years of his life. I refuse to do it, anyone who can't cope with me casually saying "Oh yeah, I went there with back when we were together" has to learn to live with it. It sounds so stilted when you try to avoid it that it becomes the elephant in the room very quickly. And avoiding it all the time it leads to suspicion and questions like "was that with so-and-so", even when you aren't purposely leaving it out. Especially with the type that has a problem with it in the first place.

Probably he needs to learn to make her feel more special and less of a poor substitute, but her complaint is more of a symptom of their relationship problems, not a cause. Changing the way he talks won't fix anything.

Some people never get over a dead loved one or heart-breaking loss. That is why such characters in fiction are so common. Point his behavior out to him in a non-threatening way, tell him not to yell and snap at you if he does that again, and ask him if he will get past this or if this is the future, not just the past. Either he gets the message or he doesn't. Then you stay or leave, depending on how you feel about the matter.

"Women are always telling guys to talk about their feelings and asking them to tell me what's on your mind? Right before they club them over the head."

That is because when they say they want you to "share your feelings" they are really saying, "Share with me those things I imagine you feel--those things that will reassure me, woo me, and make me feel pretty, shiny and loved."

If your feelings don't track those topics, however, most women don't want to hear about your feelings. Or if your feelings at that time do not start with those topics, women want the conversation to end there in pretty short order.

Most women would be horrified to hear what actually goes on in a guy's head, and would take those thoughts very, very personally, even though it has nothing to do with them in most cases.

The shorthand joke for this fact of life is the "do these jeans make me look fat?" The "feelings" stuff is just the next level up from that same request for verbal reassurance from a male.

Screwed up my HTML tags there (note to self - learn to preview). Should say

"Oh yeah, I went there with insert ex-gf name here back when we were together"

Most women would be horrified to hear what actually goes on in a guy's head

Never were truer words spoken! Oh, the dilemma of how to answer the "what are you thinking about?" question...

Most women would be horrified to hear what actually goes on in a guy's head

I've no doubt that's true; I'd just amend it to:

Most people would be horrified to hear what actually goes on in other people's heads.

I say that from the experience of what goes on in my head.

"Most women would be horrified to hear what actually goes on in a guy's head"

I'm going to take your word for it; which is precisely why I'm glad that I DON'T know what he's thinking most of the time. I don't want to know!!

My husband brings up his late wife when it's relevant to the conversation, usually in the context of his children, but it's not frequent. We are busy building OUR life together, which of course includes the past--namely his children whom I really love and am lucky to have--but is focused on the present and the future.

But one thing I really appreciate about him is that he doesn't paint her as a saint; in the early days of our relationship getting to know each other, he told me good and bad of their relationship; therefore my knowledge of her, although secondhand, is that of a human, flaws and strengths.

It really does sound to me as if this guy's not through grieving, and, much as LW might not want to hear it, Spartee is 100% correct when he says that he may NEVER be done grieving. There may be no salvaging of this relationship....Hard to face when you've "put in" three years with somebody, but past investment doesn't equal future results--or something like Amy often says.

http://abstrusegoose.com/99

This cartoon illistrtes why guys dont answer the "wat'cha thinking about" question

This is a tough one. My husband died almost 12 years ago, and while I don't bring it up every 10 minutes (I'm in a great 9+ year relationship now) it is almost impossible not to talk at all about that time in your life. Eventually, like Ltw said, you're going to mention something you did with that person. Like it or not, they were a part of your life and you just have to accept that. That said, if he's constantly talking about his late wife, I seriously doubt he's ready for a relationship. His failure to see that it's getting old, especially after he's been told that, is very telling - maybe this is his way of keeping her at a distance from him. At any rate, I think he needs some more time to figure things out.

Looj, that was priceless!! Spanks for sharing.

Someone else posted it origianlly, I think it was on this blog a few moths ago acctually

Something that interests me about this Ann is that I expect my partners to accept that I'm friends with most of my ex-gfs (it's a short list and all were very close partners, sometimes it doesn't happen but if you work at it it can be done). I don't throw them together unnecessarily or expect them to be best buddies, and there's a couple that I have to avoid having in the same room - although some are close, and yes they do gang up on me to tell me when I do something wrong - three at once one time!

But I won't accept "you can't see her again". My answer is (said very nicely), "Look, you can come if you want, I've got nothing to hide, or not, it's up to you - but I'm going".

Where I'm going with this is - is that better or worse than competing with a partner who has passed away? At least with an ex you can read their body language and tell they're not interested in that way anymore. Plus you broke up for a reason and although that can change, usually people remember that, and that's very different to having someone taken away from you.

So perhaps I was hasty on this one, he can't never talk about her but he does need to understand that if wants to build a new relationship he can't make his gf compete with a memory. I still think that's a symptom of an underlying problem rather than the issue itself though.

And my condolences for your loss.

lujlp, cute cartoon. Thanks for linking!

From my perspective, there is a rather significant difference between an "ex" and a "late." Losing a partner to a divorce involved a series of decisions, not necessarily mutual, but at least one person wanted out of the relationship badly enough to end it.

When you lose a spouse to death, it's entirely out of your hands and not by your own choosing. The finality of that grief is quite a bit different from the pain associated with divorce.

I think LW may be feeling a number of issues--wrestling with feeling "jealous" of a person who's no longer alive, mingled with guilt over it; after all the late wife's gone, and doesn't deserve to be the target of the resentment--nor does widower. It's natural that he would grieve for her. However, at some point, you'd hope that new love for LW would take a bigger place in his heart as the grieving gradually subsides...

This is a very tough one to sort out, for sure.

And Ann, as someone who's lost a spouse to death, your insight is appreciated. Thank you for sharing.

While its true that previous life experience can't be edited out, how its phrased can make a difference. I generally just speak about the event first hand, as in, "Oh yes, I was in Yellowstone once and we had this bear come into our campsite. Managed to chase it off by tossing rocks at it", where if its stated more like "Joe and I were in Yellowstone and had the best time. It was so awesome the way he chased it off by throwing rocks at it." The first way isn't awkward editing but there's no need to play up an old partner's role in your past life when you're speaking of it with a new partner.

The LW asked whether or not this is normal. I think that question is largely irrelevant. (Is there really a "normal" way to deal with the loss of a spouse?)

The more important question is: Is this a deal-breaker to you? He's shown that it is important to him to talk about her, and, judging by his reaction to her complaints, probably feels that she is disrespecting him by trying to stop it. He may change over time, as they make their own memories, but he's not going to stop just for her (and if he does, he'll feel guilty and resent her for it).

She needs to decide whether this is something she can just live with and not complain, or if it is not.

my mom died 4 years ago. she and my dad had been together for 40 years. my dad has a tendency to wallow in things - all things whether huge like losing his wife or less significant like the car breaking down - it's an addiction to misery. so whenever there is an opportunity to work himself up into sadness or to portray himself as a victim of tragic circumstances, he works it. it's a personality compulsion - for anyone who is familiar with the Enneagram, it's the classic type 4. they're big on drama, intensity, tragedy.

that's just a personal example but the “Enneagram personality type 4" isn't the only one that does this. there is a tendency among many people to dwell on and even to play up anything that gets them sympathy or portrays them as a martyr. we humans seem to value victimhood and to barter it in conversation. people one-up each other all the time, and the person with the worst tragedy is the winner. it's like a reverse bragging - bragging of victimhood. i know a lot of people will call me insensitive or harsh for taking this angle on such a sensitive topic; i'm trying to offer an unemotional/analytical perspective because this is ONE important aspect of this kind of situation (having time to properly grieve is another important aspect).

of course LW's bf will grieve and may grieve for a long time, but at some point he has to make a CHOICE about moving on. he has a woman in his life who loves him and wants to be with him and yes it's heartbreaking to lose someone you loved and who was such a major part of your life for so long. he will probably always think about her but he could do so without verbalizing it to his gf constantly. when he does this, he is CHOOSING to keep it/her alive in a way that prevents him from moving on, that prevents his current relationship from growing and thriving. if he still needs to grieve and talk about her, it should be with a therapist, not the gf. and he might need to ask himself some tough, uncomfortable questions: to what degree is my constant talking about her for the purpose of feeling "proud" of this tragedy, or what am i getting out of constantly talking about her?

What is this attitude of "I'll talk about her wherever and whenever I want"?

If you have an audience of one, you do not talk about "whatever you want."

Why would anyone want to inflict an unpleasant topic on their partner.

Lyssa asked if it was a deal-breaker. It would be for me, I think. Not because he's hung up on his wife. That may not be the case. But if I'm alone with someone and asked him to avoid a particular topic and his attitude is "Screw you. I will talk about it to you all I want."

Why would you do such a thing? In the company of one person, why would you talk about something that you know distresses this other person, unless you want to upset them? Maybe he needs to talk through the loss of his wife, but a considerate person would find an appropriate audience.

I don't know if it would help or not, but Emily Yoffe, at Slate, has a just beautiful article about her husband's late first wife and her place in their relationship.

http://www.doublex.com/section/life/my-husbands-other-wife

Either way, it's a really lovely piece and well worth a read.

"In the company of one person, why would you talk about something that you know distresses this other person, unless you want to upset them?"

Not necessarily that you want to upset them, but couldn't give a monkey's @$$ whether it does or doesn't. Either way I agree with your statement, not someone to hang with long term

I'm a little perplexed by the LW.

What does she EXPECT him to call her? She's not his ex-wife. She's not his former wife. The woman died with the title intact, therefore it seems entirely appropriate for him to call her his wife.

Dating somebody for three years doesn't change that.

It's entirely possible that pointing out (in casual conversation) that his wife was dead has brought on all sorts of unwanted questions (morbid curiousity) and bad advice ('getting back on the horse', and whatnot, so there may be valid reasons for him to avoid dropping the MY WIFE IS DEAD card into casual conversation.

It's easy enough to assume that anybody who knows him well enough knows that his wife is dead, and anybody who doesn't...well, who cares what they think? If her friends are confused, there's always time to say "Ah yes, Betty. Unfortunately, I never had the pleasure of making her acquaintance, rest her soul," if they ask "What did he mean, his WIFE?" later on.

I'm a little skeptical about the 'talks about him all the time' thing. Is this a 'you never!' or 'you always!' thing that, upon further examination of the calendar, turns out to be an occasional problem? If he's been bringing her up morning, noon and night, why did the LW stay with him for three YEARS?

I suspect that the LW thought he would stop after falling madly in love with her, and is irked that three years of dating hasn't erased thirty years of marriage, or changed the fact that the man's wife died 'in office,' if you will, and will NEVER be his EX-wife. Now, if they got married, it would be entirely proper to refer to her as "my first wife," but...well, would YOU marry somebody who was still having jealousy issues about a dead woman?

LW: If it bugs you that much, move on. 'Fixing' a partner always seems to be code for "We're going to break up, but first, shit's gonna get ugly."

Otherwise, compassion and grace are almost never a mistake.

Most women would be horrified to hear what actually goes on in a guy's head

Never were truer words spoken! Oh, the dilemma of how to answer the "what are you thinking about?" question...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P87DS3aY4w

I think that after 3 years the LW is wanting more than just "girlfriend" status, and hearing about the late wife is exacerbating her frustration.
He apparently loved the wife very much and isn't over her, although having something to boink works for him.
Isn't there a book out called "He's Just Not That Into You"? I think this is something she might take the time to review. That's what I'm hearing, he's just not that into her.
If he wants to talk about his late wife in bed, however he shouldn't have a steady girlfriend, he should have a hooker.

"What is this attitude of "I'll talk about her wherever and whenever I want"?
If you have an audience of one, you do not talk about "whatever you want.""

Excellent point, Patrick! At that point, it stops being a conversation, doesn't it. I'd call it more of a one-sided monologue. How rude!

"LW: If it bugs you that much, move on."

Yes, I agree. Don't waste any more time waiting for things to change. Early in a relationship, that's when a couple is infatuated, lovey-dovey, can't get enough of each other, can't stop thinking about each other, and so on. The LW missed out on all that fun because the guy she's dating wasn't (and may never be) ready to feel that way about someone. She had to endure what *should* have been the first, blushing, rosy glow listening to her partner natter on and on about someone else. And as much as I feel for the guy, this really is not the LW's problem.

She should move on and find someone who is crazy about HER, who talks about HER all the time. I think she has always been stuck in the rut as this guy's rebound girlfriend, and things are never going to get better or change. If he can't muster up being crazy about her from the very beginning, it's certainly not going to happen on its own after three years.

Thank you for the link Donald, precisely my point. My ex used to regularly tease me by saying "Tell me a story" (usually straight after sex in the cuddle period), and my mind would go totally blank. The rest of the time she could barely shut me up and we would talk for hours, but demanding creativity at that moment was really unfair I thought...

"The LW missed out on all that fun because the guy she's dating wasn't (and may never be) ready to feel that way about someone."

By the way, I understand this concept better thanks to you, Amy. I never used to be able to understand why someone (in this case, the LW's boyfriend) would ruin an otherwise perfectly good chance at happiness because his heart has been set in stone. When I was on the receiving end of this unfortunate lack of genuine affection, I used to blame myself. But I think I am beginning to understand, if not always why, at least the actual fact that some people just don't have that in them. Fortunately my sweety does, and after two and a half years we are still each other's favorite company. I must remember how lucky I am.

(Also, in case anyone was paying attention, I got a job on Wednesday! Yay! No breadlines for me, AND a great sweety. Life is good.)

I'm, for all intents, a widower. Thirteen years together, and I buried her her in 2005. I stiil burn a candle on her birthday, and have to watch for moroseness around the time she passed.

That my now ex-GF understands/ understood when I refer to her that I'm not comparing, contrasting or competing against her. It was always in the context of this is my past.

If the new GF in this case is getting comments of "She would lick my nuts" he is trying to make her into the dead wife. If it is "She laid to my left, not right after sex" that could be a comfort issue. If it is "She always wanted a larger bedroom." then he's looking for input to build their life.

But that the GF is sensitive -- is it for a valid reason or not. If he is saying dead wife made fried chicken this way -- it was crispier vs, She didn't cook the fried chicken this way. It may be a non-criticism, or at least an opening into comprise. He may not know how to phrase it the right way.

He may be asking for help to move forward, but doesn't know how to phrase the context properly.

As far "My wife" -- I referred to my passed girlfriend as "My Lady". It took a while to my new GF getting that appelation. But I got the message when she made a comment about calling her sweety, sweetheart, hotty. She liked that I thought about her that way.

You've been listening to him for THREE YEARS go on about his deceased wife? You should get an award or something. Honestly, 3 years is a bit much & you really should have had "the talk" with him before this, before he had to blow up on you, before he mentioned her in the bedroom. She's a ghost hanging over his every move, in his every waking moments. You are the interloper. The fact that he "blew up" at you for wanting to banish the ghost speaks volumes & to me, means that he is not ready for a serious relationship yet. He either hasn't grieved properly and/or fully, or he is just never going to get over his loss. By staying with him, you are accepting his behaviour, even though your words say otherwise. It would be kind of you to allow him time & space to heal. Some people take a very long time to heal when their spouse of 30 yrs dies. Do not blame yourself. Love him enough to tell him goodbye.