Ew. Blech. Yuck. Okay, I've run out of onomatopoeias to sufficiently convey my disgust at this man. And this "does age really matter?" bullshit is after Amy already emailed him several times about staying the hell away from the waitress? Unbelievable. Or maybe not, since, if he doesn't care what the supposed woman of his dreams wants, he probably doesn't care a whole hell of a lot what Amy wants.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE leave this girl alone. I was in the same situation and I PROMISE you she is asking her friends to take pictures of your face with their camera phones so that when she goes missing the cops will know what to give the local news stations. LEAVE HER ALONE!

We probably aren't qualified to leave a bunch of comments for this guy. I started to say something, but deleted them because they might set him off.

"Beside Yourself", please talk to a mental health professional. And for the love of everything holy, LEAVE HER ALONE!

This probably is not the place to risk egging this guy on.

I considered writing a response in the other thread, but this is so creepy that I needed to step back for a minute. I wasn't completely creeped out until this follow-up.

I think Amy hit it with the movie reference. Movies tell us men can pick up chicks by just wearing them down enough. Dude, please, stop before you end up in prison. I hope this woman has an understanding manager who is backing her up.

Yes. You are too old for her. That's the reason why she's not into you. Since it isn't something you can change, might as well move on.

I'm going to answer the question here without considering the LW's blindness to the fact that this particular woman has no interest in him. Let's say, for sake of the argument, that she did.

Can a relationship between a 40 year old and 20 year old work? Maybe - but only under specialised circumstances, and probably only temporarily. And only between people that can honestly address the problems that are *definitely* going to come up, which rules out the LW who is so far in denial that he can't recognise "fuck off" in it's-more-than-my-job's-worth-to-tell-you-for-real speak.

So, we have a young lady in a service position being pursued (would stalked be too strongly phrased?) by a man with delusions of desirability. The only way this situation could be worse would be for spineless management to insist that the customer is always right.

Why does this remind me of a situation my wife encountered at work? My advice to LW would be to kill himself, now, before any acquaintances he might have realize how loathsome and pathetic he really is.

i don't see anything wrong with a 40-20 relationship. biologically speaking women tend to be hypergamous and men tend to go for looks/youth as an indication of reproductive health. i know older women hate this and consider it unfair but that's just the way it is - might as well hate the sky for being blue. it's just the way human beings are put together

in this guy's case though his obvious refusal to accept a refusal comes across as a little scarey. most adults are able to take a hint - and her hint wasn't subtle in any way

i'm wondering if he isn't slightly autistic or suffering from some other condition that makes him blind to social cues. i have an ex son-in-law who was similarly afflicted. he could not pick up on people's facial expressions and didn't have the capacity to act appropriately in social settings

"I don't see anything wrong with a 40-20 relationship. biologically speaking women tend to be hypergamous and men tend to go for looks/youth as an indication of reproductive health. i know older women hate this and consider it unfair but that's just the way it is - might as well hate the sky for being blue. it's just the way human beings are put together."

As a woman whom you would probably consider "older", I can tell you straight out that seeing some old fart chasing a young woman tells me something about said old fart's mental and emotional capacity: it's infantile and not wanted on my voyage. And it's not wanted in ANY way at all--I don't even like having these guys as colleagues or neighbours. (A circumstance I haven't always been able to control, unfortunately.)

40-something guys chasing 20-something women usually (but not always) come with exactly the kinds of problems the LW has. That's why they're usually isolated loners, in love with their own fantasies.

The fact that these men are not interested in women their own age is a blessing--they're saving their female peers a lot of time and grief by weeding themselves out. They're about as attractive as axe-murderers.

If you re-read his original letter, I don't think there is a problem with him picking up her "social cues", he got that she is not interested is choosing to ignore it. I don't remember "overweening sense of entitlement" being a symptom of autism.

"... Can a relationship between a 40 year old and 20 year old work? Maybe - but only under specialised circumstances, and probably only temporarily. ..."

Speaking from personal experience, I would have to disagree. When I met my wife, I was 45 and she was 20; that was 3 kids ago and almost 20 years ago. We've had our ups and downs, but by and large, we have been as happy as any other average couple.

IMHO, this idea that there is something unsavory or unnatural about May-December relationships is just propaganda, promulgated by bitter middle-aged women who can't accept the fact that their physical attractiveness has faded, and who never bothered to cultivate the mental or emotional warmth that would have allowed them to remain desirable to men even after their youthful beauty had passed.

Having said all that, I do have to agree that this particular LW is at the very least pathologically awkward in terms of social skills; and at worst, a borderline creep.

LW, Dude, stay away from the young girls! You've got no business with them. No, they can't make you young again (if that's what you were really after). No, it's not different in your case (you're not that unique). No matter what you think, in the eyes of everyone who sees you, you're turning into Uncle Skeevy. Don't even go back to that restaurant again; go find somewhere else to drink your coffee.

I don't think he's autistic either. He doesn't communicate like someone who has autism.

As for 40 and 20, yes that's a pretty big gap. But I've seen 25+ and 40 work for a few couples, though the guys don't look like your average 40yr old. Despite what IE's experiencing on her 'voyage', these guys aren't crazy loner axe murdering old farts either.

As a 40yr old man I can tell you that it's nigh impossible to find an attractive eligible woman you own age, so I don't begrudge men pursuing younger women.

What's weird about 20 and 40 is that the 20 year old is so young that you worry that the 40yr old is either caught up in a fantasy, or just exploiting her. Because girls that age tend to be very immature. As cute as they can be, I'd never consider trying to have a relationship with one.

My grandparents were 33 years apart, but it was a different era. He was 52 and looking for someone to have a family with, and she was 19 and looking for someone safe and stable. They had four kids together and by all accounts were very happy.

What was the title of the original article? I want to go back and read it.

Oh! I figured it out! Each week, I like to read the short column and then the long one, so I got thrown off!

Totally. Creepy. Take no for an answer and move on, jeez. It's just a silly crush; grow up and stop looking at everything like something you have to conquer. Leave the girl alone, for the love of God.

If you want to get an interesting take on the 40-20 "romance" thing, talk to any young woman who works as a stripper. That might prove enlighting for some of you who are defending these guys.

The reason I'm no big fan of these relationships is because I'm in a field where I occasionally see middle-aged men geting involved with younger women. With these guys, it's almost always about control. The older men, with more wealth, are interested in a someone who will be dependent, in the same way some men like the idea of mail order brides.

I've seen some of these young women tire of these men, but have a very hard time getting away. More than once, I've seen a young woman move to another city because Mr. Older Guy is used to calling the shots and how dare she dump him. Other times, I've seen some of these young women go in the other direction and start assuming the same mantle of power their older partner has...a bit like social climbing.

It's the obvious "transaction" aspect of these relationships that some of us find distasteful. The fact that the man is clearly looking for a woman the same way he would look for an object, like say, a new Mercedes. To the younger women who climb up, they just seem pretentious and obnoxious--they're a bit like cheaters, taking an obvious shortcut to get ahead.

And, one last thing, us older gals were young once too. And, we had to fend off older men. I thought the idea of getting together with a 30/40 something when I was a young 20 something was icky. It's not a case of getting old and bitter--and why does that word "bitter" come up every time an older woman expresses an opinion?--it's more about remembering feeling cheap and dirty when an older guy leered at us with sex on the brain. It was creepy. Really.

Some of these relationships do work, but I honestly can't report one in my circles of friends and acquaintances.

Of course it could also be that the 40 year old single women are as often as not bitter and angry, and frankly not much fun to be with.

Plus, if a man gets to 40 without having settled down, and he wants a family, then a woman "his own age" is right out.

You can be bitter about it all you like, or you can accept the fact that the majority of available women over 40 are not going to attract much interest from men under 50.

Back to the topic at hand - a 20 year old woman is definitely too young, even for a 20 year old man.

I forget where I heard of this "rule", but it seems sensible - to find the range of acceptable mate ages, a man should take his age, divide it by 2, and add 7. The range is five years either side of this.

So for your 40 year old man, that works out to a range of 22 to 32. I might skew that up a couple years, though. 22 is still a bit immature these days.

22 is still a bit immature these days.

Nail on the head of one of the problems with older men dating much younger women. Ltw had a good comment on the longer letter from this guy: an ex of his had a customer at her coffee shop want to "rescue" her from her low-paying job, which translated to wanting someone who would be dependent on him. I see no inherent problem with a middle-aged man dating a twenty-year-old woman, for many of the reasons brian pointed out above, but a middle-aged man who needs a twenty-year-old woman likely has problems with wanting someone to be dependent on him.

I don't remember "overweening sense of entitlement" being a symptom of autism.

Best comment so far on these two letters. Hahahathud, indeed...that was the sound of me laughing so hard when I read this that I accidentally hit my head on my laptop screen. Seriously.

IE I don't think that strip clubs are the best proxy for this sort of behavior in the outside world. What I've seen more often is an older guy falling for a young girlfriend, and then getting all broken up when she leaves him for a guy her own age. There seem to be a lot of girls who want to have an 'experience' with an older man they find attractive. But I don't think that they really see these guys as boyfriends.

It is unusual for a 20-year-old to be attracted to a 40-year-old. I know that this fact makes bitter old men angry, but it is a truth nonetheless. Yes, of course there are some 20-year-olds attracted to 40-year-olds, but again, it is unusual.

If the LW was 20 years younger, the waitress might have reacted differently. As it is, most (of course not all, most) 20-year-olds see 40-year-olds as safe and asexual. Are they wrong? Maybe, but that doesn't change the fact that that is how they see them. So when a 40-year-old starts courting, it usually (not always, usually) comes across as creepy and skeevy, almost incestuous.

Think about how teens and 20-somethings react to the thought of their parents having sex, or to old people in bathing suits. It is a similar reaction. "EW! Old people aren't sexual!!!" Stupid? Immature? Sure. But nonetheless a very common reaction.

Some women, as Mr J said, will go for the curiosity or kinky factor of hooking up with an old guy.

Of course people can have relationships at any age. But sorry, old dudes, most 20-somethings do not see you as potential mates. The ones who do are exceptions. The ones who do who don't have issues are exceptions among the exceptions. If you found one, that's great! I hope you appreciate her a lot because she is an exception among exceptions.

While I sort of agree with you, NicoleK, I have my doubts that the waitress in this particular instance might have reacted differently had the LW been twenty years younger. I don't see it as much about age (especially since I read the other letter before this one and thought he was in his midtwenties or so) as about him being generally creepy and making her uncomfortable. It's creepy behavior no matter the ages of the two parties involved. Even an attractive twenty-five-year-old guy would make me uncomfortable if he acted the way this LW did. I mean, his feelings only got stronger even though she gave him no encouragement and asked him to sit at another station? And she likely have has given him no meaningful conversation beyond her name and the specials of the day (because I'm sure he would have included that in his first letter)? Now, I don't know how put off she was by him right away, and that part may lean more in the favor of the younger guys, but I don't see that she would have been less creeped out had he been one of them.

This isn't about age--thank you Amy Alkon! One of the sexiest men I've ever dated is 14 years my senior and we met when I was 27 at a mutual friends bday party. That's the normal way to meet someone, and if all y'alls still want to be ageist, well... suit yourself.
I had a stalker once and I had my friends take down his lp # and I gave it to the campus police. They spoke to him and he went away-done and done!
The issue here is that this man needs to check himself due to some type of personality disorder. But it's so much bigger than that. Amy, you mention the movies in your response and it's true that people become extremely confused btwn fantasy and reality in these over saturated times we live in.
This is obviously a very confused and lonely LW who can't understand why his happy ending isn't working out the way he wrote it into the script in his head. Maybe he can relate to this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh_9QhRzJEs

@ G-spotted: It's about age because the LW asked about it himself. I think that a 27 year old meeting a 40 something is a bit different. There's about a 20 year span in there (for women between let's say 27 and 47) where getting together with an older guy is pretty much the norm if they're not dating someone their own age. I don't think it's these kind of relationships that are being discussed here.

It's really about age when you get someone in their early 20s getting together with someone 20 years their senior. That's when it starts to get a bit weird for me. Someone's wearing their mercenary intentions on their sleeve and I just don't want to volunteer to be a witness.

I have a girlfriend who, after a brutal divorce, started dating online and was pretty consistently pursued by men in their early 30s (she's 50). I found it odd, but our computers were close in proximity and she was always calling me over to check out this guy or the other, asking what I thought, so I knew it was for real.

She's a beautiful, "go-for-it" kinda gal and loved telling me how the sex was great. At first I was her confidante and cheerleader (hey, why not thumb our noses at those quaint old notions about sex and age?), but sooner or later, every guy she dated ended up being immature in some non-negotiable way and she would end it. She finally stopped with the young guys and is now with someone her own age. Her experience is informing my opinion in this matter too.

The moral of the story? Sometimes age really does matter, never mind if it's an older guy or older gal dating a younger partner.

This whole issue of referring to single women over a certain age as "bitter" is just a mean-spirited cheap shot. I think a lot of chronically pissed off guys relish that rush the self-righteousness they feel when they use the term. (For example, I think of my dead-beat brother, who calls me "bitter" every time I stop him from helping himself to my disabled mom's money!)

I suggested talking to 20 something strippers about older guys for a reason. Their take on these "romances" is hilarious, but a bit too incendiary for a civilized column like this.

I flubbed a sentence up there--I meant to say "...guys relish that rush OF self-righteousness when...
My apologies, IE

"...40-something guys chasing 20-something women usually (but not always) come with exactly the kinds of problems the LW has. That's why they're usually isolated loners, in love with their own fantasies.

The fact that these men are not interested in women their own age is a blessing--they're saving their female peers a lot of time and grief by weeding themselves out. They're about as attractive as axe-murderers..."

@le - i rest my case. justify your attitude to yourself anyway you like, older women resent that men prefer younger women. it doesn't mean that men won't have relationships with older women but, on a biological basis, our bodies prefer younger bodies for reproduction

btw - that's some nice shaming. guess you're one of the 'men are just naturally pigs' crowd

"...This whole issue of referring to single women over a certain age as "bitter" is just a mean-spirited cheap shot..."

@le - This whole issue of referring to male sexuality over a certain age as "creepy" or "dirty" is just a mean-spirited cheap shot...jealousy maybe?

why is it so many women just can't seem to see their own sexist double-standards?

i know plenty of young women who like older men for various reasons - not all but many. incidentally, the celebrity whore-ship that women (predominantly) revel in exposes the female lie to the whole "dirty old man" theory. how many years running was sean connery voted 'sexiest man alive' again?

Number Six, I agree that his behavior is creepy no matter what. However, a lot of women have this double standard where if a guy they aren't attracted to acts a certain way, its creepy, but if a guy they ARE attracted to acts the same way, its not. So maybe if he was young and hot she wouldn't be as sketched out.

OtherJim, I don't think that anyone is saying that sexual older guys ARE gross, just that the average 20-year-old will see them that way. 20-year-olds can be very prissy in that regard, the thought of older people being sexual can freak them out. Ridiculous, yes, but thats how it is.

Sean Connery is so unattractive, I don't get it, but yes, a lot of women like their movie stars ripe! But my guess is its mostly middle-aged matrons voting for him. I'm sure some 20 year olds did, but not many. I think as women get older, the thought of dating an older man, with say a 15 or 20 year age difference, isn't so unappealing anymore. It's when you're a teen or early twenty something that it still seems gross.

It's kind of like how most 20 somethings tend to hang out with people in their age range, and don't have a ton of older friends. But when you're 30, going for dinner with a 40 or 50 year old couple doesn't seem so strange, and one starts relating to older family friends and relatives in a different way.

As someone who married with a 15 yr age gap, and am now in my 40s...and have known many many younger/older couples who've fallen by the wayside, I simply don't believe this works except in middle-age male fantasies and extremely rare instances.

20 to 40 is not that big of a difference PHYSICALLY, but 50 to 30 is. Many men start having trouble with impotency and health issues after that age. Of course, there is the little blue pill, but a younger women really doesn't want to deal with the problems of aging.

Those who will usually do it for money or lifestyle, but deep down, they phsyically desire a man their own age. I recall being deeply envious of girlfriends who were dating hot 30-something guys, while I had to go home to my 50-something one.

So, it's very rare that it works. Of the ones who do, the woman is usually closer to her 30s before choosing this arrangement. As Brian said, choosing a 22 yr old is risky no matter what your age.

I don't think that all women over a certain age are bitter. But there is a reason for the stereotype. It's not just something that men have concocted to make women feel bad. Women generally have very negative attitudes towards men and these seem to become more pronounced as they get older, or it may be that older women are more willing to express their opinions towards men.

Also Nicole makes a good point on the older / younger issue. Below a certain age, older people just aren't on your RADAR. I remember being that age and anyone past about 32 just wasn't a consideration. When girls dated 'older' guys, they meant 27, not 40. A 30 year old woman would have been considered a cougar. It's a totally different frame of reference. Younger women don't seem to really entertain the idea of being with a man who's 10+ years older until they mature a bit and the age gap doesn't seem so severe. Still there are many who have very strict age limits. I meet women in their 30's who are single and won't date a guy more than 3 years older than themselves.

But I think that the 900lb gorilla in the room, when it comes to the viability of older / younger, is appearance. A good looking man at 40 has opportunities that your average 40yr old never would. The same goes for attractive women. I think that much of the reason that age barriers are so distinct is that the one age group just doesn't find the other physically attractive. If 40 year old men and women looked like they did at 25, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

@otherJim...did you miss the fact that I'm basing my opinions on this issue not just on the men who want younger bodies? I ended up feeling the same way about my woman colleague who was constantly dating younger guys too. After a while her enthusiasm for young studs kind of turned me off in the same way.

It's the aspect of people using one another that I'm not into...at least people using one another and disguising it as a "relationship."

From what I've observed, as both a young woman and now as an older one, that's what a lot of these older guy/younger women relationships seem to be about. I would classify them in a gender-neutral way (ie., older partner, younger partner) if that's how they were distributed in our culture, but the truth is it is usually older guys chasing younger women. Even you should agree with that, since you seem to think men are biologically driven to seek younger bodies, right?

It seems to me that as soon as a woman of a certain age disagrees with something like this, she's "bitter." I suppose then, that a younger woman who disagress equally (as in "Ewww, date a 40 year old man? Are you crazy?") is what? Just stating an honest preference?

It's equally sexist and ageist to characterize older women unfavourably because they may hold opinions that don't match up with yours. That's all I'm pointing out.

I think it might also be helpful to point out that I have plenty of married friends, MEN and women, who have 20 something daughters and who are in total agreement with me. A lot of them don't want to see their daughters hook up with these guys either. And since you're obviously dismissing me as a less than credible source of information, why don't you try taking your argument to the fathers of some of these young women? Let's just see how "bitter" you think they are.

I think

It's a bit funny, because women get upset at the suggestion that men prefer 20-year-olds to 40-year-olds, but at the same token, men get upset at the thought that 20-year-olds don't return their affections.

It seems to me that men are most attracted to women in their 20s and 30s, while women are most attracted to men their age or a few (up to 5 or so) years older.

If you live in a society that doesn't have marriages arranged by parents for purely economic reasons, you'll find that most women don't end up with men who are drastically their senior.

My uncle married a woman a couple years older than me. It was a bit strange, but whatever. What's hilarious is I went shopping with them, and all the clothes he wanted to buy her, that he thought were sexy, were clothes like my mother would wear. I thought that was pretty funny. Dressing a 30 year old as a 60 year old. But I guess it is the sort of thing his peers' wives were wearing.

>> If 40 year old men and women looked like they did at 25, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

BINGO. That's really what it comes down to. My brother, for instance, just turned 43. He looks like he's about 35 and is very handsome. Women in their twenties seem to have no problem at all with his age. He doesn't date that young, but he gets a lot of attention from women that age.

@le - since i make the effort to reply you can take it as read that i don't dismiss you. i don't have to agree with you to take you seriously and listen to what you're saying

what i take exception to is the constant bashing men take from women for behaviour that many women find empowering when it's themselves or their 'sisters' doing it. observe women who cheer on their female friends for gutting husbands like fish in divorce but who would condemn men for the same behaviour

you may or may not indulge in this but there are plenty of women who do. i used your comments to make my point but it wasn't about you specifically

"A good looking man at 40 has opportunities that your average 40yr old never would. The same goes for attractive women."

That's exactly right. Anyone, male or female, has to have a realistic view of their desirability on the open market. Attractiveness is a big factor, and financial stability, especially for men, is too.

Older men may want younger women, and go on about how biologically preferable it is, but unless the older guy brings a lot to the table, this isn't likely to work.

I have several older male friends, some quite well-off, who chase younger women, but they either strike out entirely or get very unstable, needy women, with a lot of baggage and drama, and things usually end up a (costly) mess.

This is because they don't realistically assess their desirability. They want really hot, young women, yet they have beer guts, saggy knees, and combovers themselves. This is what mostly offends women is that men like these expect almost physical perfection in the women they date, yet they don't make any real effort to be physically attractive themselves. It's the sense of entitlement without effort that is offensive.

I told one male friend this, as he was bemoaning the fact that he was a perfectionist and couldn't get dates with the kind of women he was attracted to, and, to his credit, he realized that he was out of shape, went to the gym and really buffed up. Now, he's dating women of a higher level of attractiveness than before.

Bottom line, if you're in your 40s and want to date hot women in their 20s, you're going to need either money or looks. And to KEEP a younger woman happy you're going to have maintain those qualities, which is challenging.

@le - sorry, i forgot to address your question about dads and daugthers

i'm the father of 2 full-grown daughters. neither of them is married but they both have co-habited with men at some point in their romantic careers. my assessment of a guy depends on how healthy the relationship is and not on their relative age to the daughter in question thx and on how happy they make my daughter at the time. i trust both of them to know their own minds and what they want and they would be (rightly) pissed if i tried to tell them how to conduct their relationships

that's not to say that they don't value my opinion and i give it to them when they ask for it

sorry ladies, i know y'all are going to hate my guts but i just can't help laughing. when i read LS's last post i just about sprayed my dr pepper all over my monitor

women complaining about men's sense of entitlement !?! project much LMAO

but seriously LS - if i understand your comment you're saying that women expect men to bring more to the table than just looks and men just expect looks. so as long as the guy does the work to stay trim and keep laying out the cash he's golden. got it

you've pretty much agreed with the hypergamy/youth comment i made earlier in a round-about way - thx

I could not help but think how lovelysoul's advice applies to women who want to stay married.

"Bottom line, if you're in your 40s and want to [stay married], you're going to need either money or looks. And to KEEP a [husband] happy you're going to have maintain those qualities, which is challenging."

You may have sprayed Dr. Pepper all over your monitor, but we still have that priceless piece of real estate (that ensures the survival of our species) btwn our legs and you don't. Maybe entitled isn't the right word, but since we have what everyone wants we definitely have an edge. If we keep the rest of our bodies looking great, even more so. Bow down!

theotherJim, I think it's sad when either gender doesn't have a realistic view of their marketability. Unattractive or very overweight women who think men should love them only for what's inside and call them shallow for not doing so are equally pathetic. But, in general, I think older men seem to have a more unrealistic view of what kind of women they can attract. Just like the LW, they delude themselves into believing cute young girls are into them when there's no way that's happening.

Most women know we are heavily judged by our appearance. The cosmetic and plastic surgery industries wouldn't exist if we didn't. So, although we wish it were otherwise, we accept this as a fact of life and try to look as good as can for as long as possible.

Yet, a lot of guys don't seem to acknowledge that it works both ways. Even the older men I know who have money rarely acknowledge that the main reason their young girlfriend or wife is with them is because they're rich. They wouldn't have a chance with that beautiful young thing if not for their wallet. It's a trade deal - looks for money.

And, I've seen it time and again, a younger woman will usually trade up when there's a richer (and maybe nicer, better-looking, and/or younger) guy in her orbit. So, it's a challenge for an older guy not only to attract a younger woman but to keep her long-term.

We women are at least realistic that our looks are a tradeable commodity - one with an expiration date - so beautiful women will usually look to make the best romantic deal they can before it's too late.

Yet, men discount their own looks as being that important because they aren't generally as important to women as status, but that doesn't mean a guy can just let himself go and expect young women are going to fall all over him.

Spartee, absolutely. Women have to keep themselves up and keep being sexy for their partner. Any woman who thinks she can just let herself go and her partner won't look elsewhere is equally delusional.

It's biologically reasonable to desire a 20-year-old woman, but it's not very biologically reasonable for her to desire a 40-year-old man. Since women live on average 5 years longer than men, that means she's looking at 25 years or so of widowhood, possibly while she is still raising a dependent child. Unless you're totally loaded, but even so, I think we can all agree that money is no substitute for having a dad around (though it's better to have no dad and have money than to have no dad and to not want it).

But yeah, people have to work on pleasing their partners. In the looks department, too, but more than that.

@ Lovelysoul. I agree with you about those kind of guys and their relationships. Back in my 30s, when I had less sense, I would listen to male friends who had exactly this problem.

One was a so-so looking stock broker in his 40s who couldn't understand why his much younger wife dumped him when he lost his fortune in a series of financial mishaps (and to his credit, not all these mishaps were his fault or predictable).

So...he sold the family home and flew to Asia to find a foreign wife. He brought one back and when she saw the lay of the land--he was living on a middle-class income, which he thought his new wife would still find impressive--she started having affairs and within months had left him for a richer guy.

Throughout all this crazy drama--entertaining at first, but dreary at the end--he never seemed willing to grow up and realize that he was not bringing enough to the table to hold on to the women he chose.

In short, he wanted too much in the way of perfection and control and was continually frustrated. He was also more than willing to rant about how greedy and demanding women were the problem. He was just plain tiresome in the end.

I think that IE is saying that women are whores ?!?

My point is just that lower status males don't have a chance with hot young women. If you don't have money, then you better have great looks, because a beautiful young woman - if she has an ounce of intelligence - knows that her youth and beauty is a marketable commodity and she's not going to waste it on some poor, average-looking Joe.

No more than a guy who makes 50 million dollars is going to go out and find some ugly woman to be with. Why would he do that? His status is a marketable commodity which allows him to attract women with youth and beauty.

That's just the way the game is played. Dating and mating has always involved this kind of trading, so it behooves everyone to know where they stand on the marketability scale and pursue mates accordingly. When you overreach - stretch too far out of your market - it usually leads to misery.

This thread reminds me of a guy who developed quite a rep in Cambridge, MA around 2005. Don't know if he's still around.

Anyhow, this guy had a fetish for Harvard grad students. He would show up at all sorts of student events, at Harvard and MIT. He really, really wanted to marry a nice Harvard or MIT girl.

He would never reveal his age, but I'd place him in his mid-forties. He didn't even have a BA, but wanted a girl with a Masters or Phd. He was quite overweight, and short. He had made a tidy sum with an Ltd, I forget what he did exactly, but it wasn't steady work, though it did bring in a lot of money.

He would arrange parties in Boston and Cambridge in the hopes of meeting his dream girl.

The problem was, he didn't have a realistic expectation of what he could get. He couldn't understand why it never worked out with these young, educated women.

He had a reputation as a creep and was banned from attending events.

The thing is, he was (is) a totally nice guy. And I wanted him to marry someone nice... just not me!!! I did go out with him once, because I'm very "Sure, what the heck" in the way I live life. He took me to a restaurant that had no vegetarian options, even though I told him I was veg. But he probably forgot I was veg, and the waiter hooked me up, so it was all good. But I was not attracted to him, even though he was a very nice guy.

It's too bad, because I think he would make someone a very good husband, but he just wasn't realistic in terms of who he could attract. The ladies he was interested, generally (of course there are exceptions) wanted to be with young men with post-college degrees who had some sort of steady, interesting job (not because of the money, he made a lot of money as far as I know, but because of the structure and the interest factor).

Anyhow. I hope he found his love!!!

"...You may have sprayed Dr. Pepper all over your monitor, but we still have that priceless piece of real estate (that ensures the survival of our species) btwn our legs and you don't..."

@Gspotted - last time i checked it took two human beings to make a third. in spite of what you might have heard from some dysfunctional women and pathetic self-hating men (i hesitate to call them men) we're still necessary in every way that's important

No...not all women are whores, but not all of them are averse to a shrewd evaluation of man's net worth. This fellow was picking women who were of that ilk. It's been known to happen. Sheeesh!

Here's the thing ladies, if you reduce a marriage to a financial exchange, none of you are worth the price. That's not to say that you're not wonderful people, but no man in his right mind is going to pay a 40+ year old woman to have sex with him. Men honestly think that women care for them. They're not aware of how mercenary you really are, that you're feelings for a guy are totally predicated on his net worth. So you should keep that fact under your hat, because if he finds out, he's going to trade you in for a younger model.

"...Men honestly think that women care for them..."

@Matt - IMO women don't have the same depth of feeling for men that we do for them. They resent us more than we resent them and they find it so much easier to walk-away than men do (80-90% divorces by women). they aren't as devastated by our loss as we are by theirs (widows live longer than widowers; women recover emotionally faster from divorce - of course they aren't the ones being blindsided by divorce)

"...They're not aware of how mercenary you really are, that you're feelings for a guy are totally predicated on his net worth. So you should keep that fact under your hat,..."

i think most older men already know that Matt. having said that, NAWALT; some women do honestly love their men deeply and would be destroyed by the loss. i've met some but they're usually women from previous generations

Matt, we women do care about you, just as you care about us. That doesn't mean you fail to notice whether we're fat or thin, or that we won't care if you have no job.

For most of us, the evaluation of whether or not to be with someone is less extreme than this. In general, the best matches are between people reasonably close in age and looks, who share mutual interests and/or common goals.

But we're talking about males who pursue much younger women. To a very real degree, those who do get only what they pay for. It's unrealistic to believe that a young woman will choose to be with an older man purely because she cares.

If it's caring and love that a man wants, that is not the best route.

@lovelysoul - well said. thank you

i don't necessarily agree with you in that i do believe there can be good partnerships between young women and older men but you're right that it's harder to find

if it happens on its own great but going out looking for it is probably going to lead to disaster for the man

i've seen men in nursing homes who were shoved there by younger wives who are now banging a younger guy and enjoying his money. they visit him once a week or just enough to keep up appearances (crazy how these women will care what the hospital/nursing home staff think about them). they obviously know that what they did is slimey at best

"@Matt - IMO women don't have the same depth of feeling for men that we do for them. They resent us more than we resent them and they find it so much easier to walk-away than men do (80-90% divorces by women). they aren't as devastated by our loss as we are by theirs (widows live longer than widowers; women recover emotionally faster from divorce - of course they aren't the ones being blindsided by divorce."

theotherJim, I can't believe you accuse women of being bitter when you are clearly so bitter at women!

Yes, women file for divorce most of the time because it is customary for the wife to file, even if she is NOT the one who wants the marriage to end. Ask any divorce attorney. Part of it is chivalry, and part of it is because the wife's attorney is usually in the more aggressive stance of going after the marital assets. They prefer to be the petioner.

Sandra Bullock filed. Elin filed. Cynthia Rodriquez (A-rod's wife) filed, I filed...almost all jilted, cheated on, or abandoned wives FILE. That doesn't prove they wanted the relationship over. Who files doesn't explain anything about why the marriage is broken.

And widows live longer than widowers simply because of biology. Women live longer than men. That doesn't mean we don't love our spouse! Geeze, what a twisted logic.

errr...lovelysoul

could you please show me with a quotation where i said that older women are bitter?

i challenged IE on her creepy old men comment but i never said that anywhere

as for the rest of your comment - okay, nice rebuttal but i'll wait to discuss it until after you've admitted to putting words in my mouth

Errr...theOtherJim, you may not have used the precise word "bitter," but you may as well have, the way you described things in one of your first posts.

And if I called men "creepy" it's because at the age of 20-21, I did find 40 year old men who came on to me just that. A few other women on this thread have said the same. Maybe the chorus of voices saying this means that there's a consensus of sorts?

Ok, well, I can't find where you said women were bitter. Maybe that was someone else. But you certainly implied in your last post that we don't have the same depth of feeling - don't care about men as much as men care for us. That's an odd position given that women are generally seen as the more emotional gender, and there are countless examples of long-suffering women who have stood by their spouses, even after enduring the most selfish behavior from them. How can you contend that men are inherently more loving?

I certainly don't suggest that men are less loving than women, but I would say heartless, unloving behavior exists on both sides. There are plenty of men who have wrecked marriages and treated their spouses poorly. You can't say it's only females who do this.

@IE - i'm sorry IE but you don't get to tell me what i meant unless you've suddenly developed telepathy. especially when i specifically deny saying it

if you want me to explain something i wrote, great; happy to oblige. otherwise kindly point out what you think i wrote in quotes and tell me why you think i meant what you think i meant. i'll be happy to clarify

also, i could care less about your alleged consensus - if you all decide i'm a blue and yellow marmot that doesn't make it so

at no time did i say women are incapable of loving men. go and read my post just prior to LS's last saying 'thank you' for saying the exact opposite

LS slammed me for something that, if she had read my comment posted just before hers, she'd realize i agreed with her about

"IMO women don't have the same depth of feeling for men that we do for them. They resent us more than we resent them and they find it so much easier to walk-away than men do"

Please clarify, then.

@LS - love to, just got to go pick up my wife from the vet's hospital and then i'll get right on it

or that we won't care if you have no job.

I don't know about that LovelySoul. From what I've seen, the expectation is for a certain lifestyle and status, more so than that a man simply be a stable provider. If this were the case, it wouldn't be such an issue for a guy to lose his job or move into a less prestigious career. These are deal breakers for many women.

It's this realization that I think keeps many older men from marrying. Once you're into your 30's and see what marriage is really like, it looses it's romantic appeal. You realize that it's just a career move for many women.

I have a very good-looking male colleague at work. I've known him for about 12 years now.

A few years ago, he developed a very bad gambling addiction and got himself into some pretty serious trouble with some seriously bad lenders--the kind who don't care if you file for bankruptcy but who do take an avid interest in your knee caps.

He went to a 12 step group once he'd hit bottom and met another good-looking man there who gave him some advice.

That led him to start trolling websites devoted to married people looking to have affairs.

Like I said, this fella was very handsome, in his mid 30s at the time, and he no trouble getting responses to his ad. (He was single at the time.)

Long story short, he got himself out of financial trouble via some of the richer women he met on this website. He was also able to finally stop gambling.

Now, in his mid 40s, he drives a very expensive SUV, dresses in clothes that are way out of my price range, owns a chalet up north and takes long trips to exotic locales. (Think six weeks in the Himalayas.)

We earn a fairly decent salary where we work, but no way, no how, could I afford to live the way he does. And where does the money come from? From young trophy wives married to rich older guys. All the things I've described are "gifts" he's received from these women.

So these are young trophy wives who are apparently looking for "real love" that just happens to come wrapped up in a pretty package like my friend. According to him, it's a niche market of sorts, one that is made possible by rich and delusional older men who think that hot young women are marrying them for themselves and not for their money.

I'm not sure I care for his lifestyle, and I think it's a bit sad because it strikes me that he's given up on real love, but there it is...he's in mid 40s now (having been twice divorced when he was younger) and this is how he lives. It's sad all around really.

"It's this realization that I think keeps many older men from marrying. Once you're into your 30's and see what marriage is really like, it looses it's romantic appeal. You realize that it's just a career move for many women."

Matt, it's much the same for women. There are plenty of women who've soured on romance because they believe "all men are cheaters", or shallow, or controlling, etc. That may have been their personal experience, which colors their perception of men in general, but it's not true.

Plenty of nice men and women exist, but it's like fishing - what you catch is going to depend largely on the bait you use. If a man flaunts his money, or purposely goes after young, dependent women (or foreign, mail-order brides), with no financial means of their own, who will be more impressed by his material things or status, then it should be no suprise when that becomes the currency of the relationship.

Take the story IE shared earlier. That guy may have changed wives but he didn't change his bait. He was still trying to impress a woman with his finances, rather than who he is as a person.

For sure, women care whether a guy is financially stable, but, especially as we get older, we care more about a man's character, temperament, and how he expresses his love for us. A selfish, volatile rich guy is no more attractive than a poor one.

That takes time for some women to learn, so actually the more maturity and independence a woman has, the more likely she will love you for you. That's why men who look for true love with young women, particularly MUCH younger women, are not going to find it.

I think that IE is saying that women are whores ?!?
Posted by: steph

Women are whores.
Why do they stay with men?
It isnt altruism is it?
No, its either - material wealth, good sex, love, or 'for the kids'.

Everything everybody ever does is entirley self serving in one way or another.
We all sell peices or versions of ourselves to achive our goals

Truth is EVERYBODY is a whore.

@LS - you asked for clarification so here it is

i did not say that women don't love men - i said that men love women more deeply. I also said that women resent men more than men resent women and that women find leaving men easier than the other way around

"...@Matt - IMO women don't have the same depth of feeling for men that we do for them. They resent us more than we resent them and they find it so much easier to walk-away than men do (80-90% divorces by women). they aren't as devastated by our loss as we are by theirs (widows live longer than widowers; women recover emotionally faster from divorce..."

Widowers die before Widows: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2705/when-one-spouse-dies-does-the-surviving-spouse-tend-to-follow-soon-afterwards

Women recover faster from divorce: http://www.entrepreneur.com/tradejournals/article/135577768.html

"...The finding that drew the most headlines was that after divorce, men feel unhappier than women. In fact, men were twice as likely as women to feel suicidal after a divorce. And men were more unhappy than women were about the failure of their marriage - 56 percent to 45 percent.

The findings held up even years after a couple was divorced. Of the long-time divorced males interviewed, 25 percent said they still felt betrayed, whereas 80 percent of women said they didn't feel that way.

Overall, according to The Independent (London), which carried a synopsis of the study, women were "far more likely than men to come out of a divorce feeling liberated, relieved and happy...."

Men hurt more by breakups: http://www.themedguru.com/20100610/newsfeature/men-are-more-affected-break-ups-women-86136359.html

Women divorce more: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_leave.html

"...When all forms of spousal neglect are grouped together, we find that it is far ahead of all the other reasons combined that women leave men. Surprisingly few women divorce because of physical abuse, infidelity, alcoholism, criminal behavior, fraud, or other serious grounds. In fact, I find myself bewildered by women in serious physical danger refusing to leave men that threaten their safety..."

here's an experiment that i recommend every married woman try. ask your husband if he would step in front of a moving car to protect you. ask him if you were dying whether he would give you his life so that you could live...you already know the answer i'm betting. just like the women on the titanic knew who would be getting in the lifeboats

i'm not bitter about women. i'm married to a wonderful woman and i have 2 beautiful daughters and many good female friends and collegues

a lot of women just can't stand to hear criticism of women in any shape or form (although you don't seem to have any problem dishing it out to us i've noticed)

"40-something guys chasing 20-something women usually (but not always) come with exactly the kinds of problems the LW has. That's why they're usually isolated loners, in love with their own fantasies."

Good Point Ie!

Someone needs to tell this girl that managers aren't there to fire you over complaining over(one) *obviously* deranged customer, but to protect thier valued employees from said pyscho!

Dude, I don't think you need a girlfriend right now. I think you should get a fish. Hell, get a plant, get anything with no free will, cause I don't think your psyche can handle any sort of rejection right now. You need therapy, cause anyone who involves themselves this deeply in a fantasy( yes, that's exactly what it is)it's usually rooted in the fact that thier reality is difficult for them to deal with. You can't escape your life by trying to make someone share your crappy reality with you.

Matt, how do you distinguish between "a stable provider" and " maintaining a certain lifestyle"? Wouldn't the stable provider be relevant?

Personally, at the risk of sounding like I'm from the 1800s, I think marriages between similar socio-economic backgrounds and educations probably work the best. Partly because they form a womans' expectations of what "a stable provider" IS.

I meant relative, not relevant. Sorry. Still groggy.

theotherJim, your evidence proves nothing about a woman's depth of love.

First, the mortality of widows compared to widowers is easily explained by the longer lifespan of women in general. Besides, dying isn't necessarily proof that one loved their spouse at all. It may prove (as I have often seen in old couples in the south) that the male was simply more dependent on the spouse to cook, clean, and care for him.

Some males, particularly those of earlier generations, seem incapable of living alone. My mother is happily married to a man who courted her in their late 60s almost IMMEDIATELY after his wife passed. He is a great guy, but he could not handle being without a wife, so he proposed to my mom, his childhood sweetheart, less than a year after his first wife's death.

I don't take that as evidence that he didn't love his first wife (of 48 yrs), as I know he did. He loves my mom too. He's just of a generation of males who do not cook and would probably starve to death without a wife. :)

"Overall, according to The Independent (London), which carried a synopsis of the study, women were "far more likely than men to come out of a divorce feeling liberated, relieved and happy...."

Whew, I sure did! I bet Elin does too! But that doesn't mean we didn't love our husbands and grieve the family that was broken. Many women feel relieved and liberated because they've been in mentally or physically abusive relationships. This does not mean they are incapable of deep love, epsecially for a man who treats them well.

This is nothing against men, as I know there are many wonderful, loving men out there (I'm with one), but, as women are typically the more submissive, "pleasing" gender, getting out of a relationship where they were expected to be someone they weren't or deal with hurtful things, such as rampant infidelity, that naturally destroy love and trust, can be a major relief.

And, in my experience and observations, males don't feel that way. For instance, almost all male cheaters I've known have wanted to stay married, despite having affairs. A few may have fallen in love with a mistress, and taken off for good, but the vast majority still claim to love their wives.

Take Tiger, for instance. Despite carrying on with 50 strippers behind his wife's back, he didn't want to divorce. SHE had to end it. He would've loved to keep having his cake and eat it too.

That is pretty typical, so it doesn't shock me that men would be more depressed over a divorce. However, this is not proof that they showed or felt greater love for their wives. What they love is the consistency of having a wife and family.

Women tend to grieve long BEFORE making the decision to divorce. There are usually hopeful reconcilliations, counseling, more counseling, separations, more reconciliations....a long, arduous process of coming to terms with the loss of the marriage. By the time the decision is finally made, they often do feel a great sense of relief, which doesn't mean they weren't in love.

You're making it sound as if women just frolic off, happy and liberated, without trying, sometimes for years, to make things work, which is untrue in the vast majority of cases.

That's my take. I feel you're blind to any bad behavior by males, so you're misinterpreting data to support your views. Men do not have any greater capacity for love than females. I don't understand why it always has to be some competition...men are better or women are better. The fair view is that there are heartless and loving people of both genders.

@LS - you're reading into my comment something that isn't there. i don't believe men are better than women, i just accept that we're different (on average) [/clarification]

why are you using celebrity divorce, cheating husbands etc to illustrate your point that women have good reason to leave a marriage? did you not read the part (did you even bother to read the material at all?) where they state that the vast majority of divorces by women AREN'T due to factors like infidelity etc? in any case, 80% of divorces are initiated by women - it doesn't matter why - if it were easier for men to walk away it would be the other way round (men aren't more moral than women or vice-versa). reality is a bitch/bastard

no men wouldn't starve - most men are very self-sufficient and take pride in the fact. the reasons you state why men might suffer more from divorce and bereavement are valid but the material states that even when all those issues are taken into account men still die, commit suicide etc more than women. the only factor left to account for it is they just have more invested emotionally (did you read the article about men being hurt more by relationship breakups than women?)

i have plenty of anecdotal evidence too LS but i'm trying not to use it because it means nothing. he said/she said means nothing unless you hear both sides. why do you try to prove the rule by the exception? that's what your unsubstantiated anecdotes are - the exception

but finally, for me at least, what says it all and puts the lie to any argument against my point is that men will lay down their lives for their wives - there may be some wives out there that would do that for their husbands i admit. if you have an anecdotal example of that from your vast experience and observations of men i will listen and happily cede the point

most men value the lives of their wives over their own - i'm going to say most women don't reciprocate simply because there maybe someone out there who knows of a woman who does (although 1 or a few women against millions of men wouldn't be much of a counter-argument)

"You may have sprayed Dr. Pepper all over your monitor, but we still have that priceless piece of real estate (that ensures the survival of our species) btwn our legs and you don't."

Priceless? From what I understand, the oldest profession in the world involves pricing that. And the price ain't very high.

i'm going to clarify part of that last paragraph

yes, there are jerk husbands out there who treat their wives like crap and only care about themselves. that isn't love - i'm talking about relationships where the man loves the woman

i can see why many women would take offence at what i wrote since it looks like i'm implying that men are saints and women are at best adequate. apologies all around, all i'm saying is that: where men love they love deeply; deeply enough to sacrifice themselves for the woman they love. can women say the same?

theotherJim, I think there are biological, evolutionary, and social conditioning reasons for the differences in behavior, not that one gender loves more deeply than the other. That does sound like you're making men out to be saints and women are uncaring sorts who wouldn't lay down our lives for our husbands.

Men are taught to lay down their lives and be the protectors of their women. Women are taught to lay down our lives and protect our young. Evolution made it this way so in the event of a crisis, the young would be protected, as fathers couldn't nurse.

How many people of either gender actually sacrifice that much today is questionable. I haven't heard too many stories of men throwing themselves in front of trains and whatnot. Recently, some guy let his lady be hit by a baseball as he ducked out of the way. It was featured all over the national news, but then, maybe he doesn't really love her.

I do agree that men can take divorces harder, as men take all failures and loss of control - the inability to fix things - harder than women do. Not sure why that is but I'm confident that it's not because women care less or love less deeply. We may just be more adaptive to stress because we usually communicate better about intimate issues than men do. We have friends and a support system to lean on and cry to, where men often do not want to show weakness and keep all their pain inside.

At any rate, what you're trying to prove is unquantifable and serves no purpose other than to create hard feelings. I could say women sacrifice themselves more for their young, therefore they love their children more than men, but that would only sound biased and untrue. We can't measure depth of love by these conditioned responses and biological differences.

I'd heard that the reason widowers and single men die earlier was because men are less likely to go see the doctor when something is wrong. The wives often have to make them go. Certainly holds true in our home... my husband didn't go for yearly physicals until he married me, and when he's sick I practically have to force him to go.

Back to the original question: despite men saying that they are more attracted to younger women and that older women are frequently bitter about this, etc, I believe that the average age difference between married couples is something like 3 years. So while middle-aged men may be attracted to girls in their early 20s and want to sleep with/date them, and girls in their 20s might have a fling with an older guy out of curiousity, ultimately these couplings are not producing lasting relationships. Also (and this is just my personal observation) the majority of couples seem to be about the same attractiveness level and come from similar social classes (as defined by occupation/education/background). The model of the 40-something businessman and 20 year old hot waitress just doesn't play out in real life.

Speaking as a 20 year old myself, the majority of 20 year olds I know are college students who have never supported themselves, held a real job, lived on their own (besides campus housing), managed a household (paying bills, paying taxes, cooking, etc), or even had significant relationship experience. Heck, I have friends who don't know how to turn on a dishwasher. I can't imagine why a 40 year old would want to date anyone this age, except of course for the appeal of a power imbalance and dependence. Most intelligent and mature 20 year olds would immediately recognize this-the ones who would seriously date a 40 year old are likely to be naive, needy, likely socially inept (or they'd be getting attention from guys their own age), and probably have a few daddy issues thrown into the mix.

Plus: eww. I just can't imagine perceiving a 40 year old as sexy. Even a really, really good looking one.

My dad was an older dad, so I think that played into me not having the "ew" reaction that you do Shannon. That was more my earliest memories of what a man was. Even at your age, I always found men in their 30s/early 40s the sexiest. Young men seemed like babies with soft baby skin. Ewwww. lol

But I wasn't mature enough to be in a relationship at that age either.

@Nicole I think that distinction between being a stable provider, and maintaining a lifestyle, is that the first focuses on welfare and security, while the second is a matter of keeping up with the Joneses, having a certain status, certain luxuries, an expectation of increasing affluence.

Your point about the benefit of marrying into a similar social class, so that expectations are in line, is an example of my point. Needing to marry this way is evidence that it's the lifestyle that is the goal, not simply security and stability.

And I agree with you, but think that a better mix is probably between two people of slightly different social classes, where the man has the higher status. It's with couples of equal status that lifestyle expectations seem the most onerous. The wife tends to want more than he can give her, and so she becomes dissatisfied and feels slighted.

I agree with Shannon: I, too, am in my 20s and would NEVER find a 40-something man sexually appealing. Thirty is the highest I would go, because in truth, men around my own age are the only ones I find attractive. I can understand older men being attracted to younger women for the biological purpose of healthy reproduction, but let's face it. There are plenty of very good looking younger guys that the younger women would prefer to be with. It's a two-way street and women are just as superficial when it comes to looks - at least for the initial impression - as men are.

" ... I can't imagine why a 40 year old would want to date anyone this age {20}, except of course for the appeal of a power imbalance and dependence...."

What is so hard to understand??? Men are hard-wired by a million or more years of evolutionary pressure to want fertile-looking women, and 'fertile-looking' implies the age range of about 15 to 25 -- give or take a few years. Now one could certainly argue that since we aren't living in caves anymore, and we are in a technological society, etc., etc.; men ought not blindly follow their natural impulses. But it ain't exactly rocket science to figure out why the impulses exist. Hell, I'm in my 60's and I'd prefer a 20 year old, if I could get one.

(Now: Would I actually go out and chase 20 year olds, even if I were rich and single? Probably not; because as you correctly point out in your next sentence {below} this is such a taboo in American culture that the only 20 year olds who are likely to be interested in a much older guy are the ones with "issues." It's like the old Groucho Marx joke: "I wouldn't want to join any club that would have me for a member.")

" ... Most intelligent and mature 20 year olds would immediately recognize this-the ones who would seriously date a 40 year old are likely to be naive, needy, likely socially inept (or they'd be getting attention from guys their own age), and probably have a few daddy issues thrown into the mix...."

+++++++++

" ... Plus: eww. I just can't imagine perceiving a 40 year old as sexy. Even a really, really good looking one. ..."

So, what do you think when you see a 40 year old guy pushing a baby stroller? That he found the kid in a cabbage patch?

Needing to marry this way is evidence that it's the lifestyle that is the goal, not simply security and stability.

The two are difficult to tease apart. If I'm used to having a three-bedroom house and enough money for private school for the kids, and all my friends and family are living that lifestyle, someone who rents an apartment and can't afford private school may seem unstable, even though the lifestyle is perfectly fine.

I don't necessarily buy the idea that this is all about fertility anymore. With the advent of hair dye, better skin care, and all kind of cosmetics, it's not as if most men can easily tell a woman's true age, and certainly not her fertility level. There are plenty of 30-somethings who still appear 20-something. I find it hard to believe men are looking at these hot, hardbodied 30-somethings and saying, "Oh, she's not young and fertile enough...I think I must have a 22 yr old!"

I'm 45 and I'm mistaken for my 20 yr old son's girlfriend quite often. People are shocked I'm his mother. No one would look at me and think, "She's infertile." And, actually, I'm probably not.

No, I think there's something to be said for this being more about the power imbalance. Men like being dominant and having the higher status. Nothing wrong with that - it's how you're wired - but this likely explains the attraction to 20 yr olds more than their appearance of fertility. Young women are much easier to impress and their dependence gives the male a (false) sense of security.

The two are difficult to tease apart.

Actually they're not.

It's funny how women always dance around this. You want access to a guy's money, just admit it, it's about how much money you can get out of him. I get that no one wants to admit this, because it makes women seem like concubines, but it's true.

@jay-w: "So, what do you think when you see a 40 year old guy pushing a baby stroller? That he found the kid in a cabbage patch?" I don't think Shannon meant that she looks at a 40-year-old man and thinks, "Eww why would any woman want to mate with a guy that old?" I believe that she is simply stating that, as a 20-something woman, SHE wouldn't be interested in or attracted to a man who is 40+. To her, as to me, men in the 20-30 range. When we are in our 30s men in their 40s will be more appealing. Of course, a hard-bodied 25-year-old guy will still turn our heads.

@lovelysoul: I completely agree with you regarding the power and dominance.

Sorry part of my sentence didn't make it. I had written: To her, as to me, men in the 20-30 range are the most attractive.

Actually they're not.

Actually, they are.

Stability and expectations go hand in hand. What is stable for one person is the brink of poverty for another. Just like beauty is relative. If you're in Hollywood, you have access to some incredibly beautiful young women. You're probably not going to be satisfied with the lovely woman who works at the small-town Starbucks who doesn't have a personal trainer and a brand-new nose. Why settle for pretty cooch when you can get stunning cooch? (Unless you're Tiger, who will take all the cooch he can get.)

I get that no one wants to admit this, because it makes men seem like johns, but it's true.

lol. Monica, that was a great comeback.

i can't speak for men just myself but this male dominance thing is getting really old and the implication that it's somehow hardwired in our brains that we want submissive women. IOW men just can't help oppressing women because it's in our genes o_0

where do women get this stuff? is that how you really see us? i think a woman who believes this would be constantly battling her husband (and driving him nuts). i can't imagine ever wanting to live with a woman like that

i want a partner, not a doormat. somebody i can be proud of and who i can rely on to handle herself in a crisis. i sure as hell don't want to be around someone who either has to be constantly babysat or who feels the need to dominate me

"...it's not as if most men can easily tell a woman's true age,..."

I'm just guessing here, and I don't really know, but I'd bet any odds that the vast majority of 40+ men can tell in an instant whether a woman is in the 15 to 25 bracket or whether she is in the 35+ bracket -- no matter how much makeup & cosmetic surgery is involved.

+++++++++++++

"...No, I think there's something to be said for this being more about the power imbalance. Men like being dominant and having the higher status..."

So therefore (He says, tongue slightly in cheek) according to the "Power & Dominance" theory, if a 40+ businessman has a choice between (1) a 25 y.o. heiress with a 130 IQ, a Masters Degree in Molecular Biology, a concealed handgun permit, a black belt in Karate, and a private pilot's license versus (2) a 40 y.o. truckstop waitress; he will pick the waitress because she is easier to control and dominate?

I get that no one wants to admit this, because it makes men seem like johns, but it's true.

THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING!!
and I'm not even going to get into whether stability really means expectations. I think that most women are smart enough to determine for themselves whether someone is financially stable, regardless of their upbringing.

Also these guys are right about our supposed 'power and dominance' fixation. If anything I wish that women were less needy and dependent, not more. I don't want 'power' over my girlfriend, I wouldn't want the responsibility, and she'd be way too much to handle.

If anything I think that this assumption comes from the fact that women feel dependent on men and they're projecting their feelings onto us.

Guys like younger women because we find them attractive, it's that simple. You'll notice that older lesbians find young women attractive as well, what's that tell you. hmmm??? Are they just bad dominating lesbians, or is it that they like pretty women? hmmmm???

Well, none of this may apply to you, but you're probably not the lecherous old guy hanging out at college campuses (or coffee shops), which is who we're discussing.

Honestly, some of my older male friends could be shown two beautiful, equally hot women, and if you told them that one was 32 and the other was 22, they'd choose the 22 yr old no matter what. They'd choose the 22 yr old even if she was LESS attractive because they view her as a bigger trophy to make them look more verile and higher status.

All it usually gets them is headaches...and not a real, loving relationship...but they'll do it every time.

It's not necessarily about dominating a young woman directly but appearing dominant and higher in status among his peers. For rich men, the younger/more beautiful woman on your arm is evidence of your wealth and power.

These guys could find plenty of beautiful, youthful women closer to their own age, who they might actually have a chance at establishing a lasting relationship and having children with, but that isn't the pond they're fishing in. That isn't their goal. If a 40 yr old guy can't find a hot 30 something in this day and age, he's obviously not looking. So, it's bogus to claim this is all about fertility.

If a 40 yr old guy can't find a hot 30 something in this day and age, he's obviously not looking.

I agree w/ that. IMO a lot of women hit a sweet spot in their 30's.

-theOtherJim
i can't speak for men just myself but this male dominance thing is getting really old and the implication that it's somehow hardwired in our brains that we want submissive women. IOW men just can't help oppressing women because it's in our genes o_0

where do women get this stuff?
40 yrs of feminism

is that how you really see us?
alot of them do see it that way

i think a woman who believes this would be constantly battling her husband (and driving him nuts). i can't imagine ever wanting to live with a woman like that
Ever seen the divorce rate?

On the power/dominance vs attractive topic:

It's one thing for a 40 year old man to pursue a younger woman, it's another thing for him to pursue a younger woman who really isn't an adult. Sure, a 20 year old is legally an adult, but almost no 20 year old is ready or able to hold their own in a relationship with someone twice their age. A 40 year old dating a 25/26/27 year old? Fine. A 45 year old dating a 30 year old? Sure, no problem. The power imbalance created by an age gap is pretty much irrelevant after a certain age, but the 5 years between 20 and 25 really do make a difference.

That's not to say that a middle-aged man can't find a 20 year old girl (or an 18 yo or 15 yo) attractive, but a smart guy isn't going to act on it. The ones that do are going to come off as creeps, like the LW.

Again, Matt, what are you defining as a stable provider?

I mean, we live in a country where the starvation rate is very low. Would you consider a man who could afford a 1-bedroom apartment in the ghetto to be a stable provider? Because technically, his family would have a roof over its head and food. There's no reason 5 or 6 people couldn't live in a one bedroom. But I don't think most people would consider this person a stable provider.

In terms of class differences, I disagree that there should be a gap. I mean, a very small one would be ok, but not a big one. With a big one you get into social climby problems, and different cultural expectations. I think a middle class woman marrying into the upper class is going to face a lot of challenges. Not that they can't be overcome, but it is difficult. In addition, the man in that situation is going to have to worry about the woman being a gold digger or social climber. Middle class into upper middle class would be fine, because the difference isn't huge.

I think there is a reason that dads used to ask the suitor, "Can you provide the lifestyle to which my daughter is accustomed?". They didn't ask, "Can you provide her a higher status than she has now" or "Can you just make sure she doesn't starve to death".

So again, how are you defining "Stable provider"?

Nicole I think that it will be easier to demonstrate the distinction between what's connoted by the use of the phrase and what's typically meant by women when they use it.

Women often use the phrases 'stable provider' and 'financially stable'. Stable means resistant to change, firm, dependable. So financial stability can be thought of as the ability to maintain a consistent financial condition that's predictable going forward, and this necessarily entails having assets sufficient to maintain a consistent and predictable financial state. But it's apparent that this isn't adequate in many cases.

Consider a normal guy who is a junior high school teacher and has inherited a nice house from his family - very stable and obviously able to provide for a family. But his income and status will be too low for many women, even women with similar or lower incomes.

Another example is a man who works in the trades. His income may be very good, he could have substantial savings, a home, a pension, but many women won't consider dating him because he's 'blue collar'.

So my argument is that these phrases, as used by women, don't actually mean what they imply. They're a polite way for women to say that they want an affluent man of high status.

To your second point about social classes, what you're describing is often referred to as 'positive assortative mating' and it's relatively new as a broad social phenomenon. Prior to the boomers, it was more typical for a man to marry a woman of a lower station. This was actually a primary driver of social mobility across generations, and the change has resulted in less social mobility. It hasn't helped the divorce rate either. It also reduced genetic variation! ;)

@lovelysoul: this 43-year-old guy would pick the 32-year-old woman every time. I don't care about trophies. 22-year-old women do have great legs, but otherwise just aren't that appealing to me anymore, beyond the usual dumb male attraction. They're just so...young.

It's a two-way street and women are just as superficial when it comes to looks - at least for the initial impression - as men are.

Thank you for your honesty. In spite of what Amy says, money and "mojo" aren't going to amount to much if you're a balding, un-cut forty-something bank president whose shiny, bald dome looks like a paperweight. Just my opinion.

No mpetrie you are right. When you see a woman with a less attractive man, it's usually because the man is affluent, or improves her social position somehow.

Women like to cast themselves as saints, but their behavior isn't so different from that of men. They're actually more judgmental than men when it comes to attraction and relationships. The whole idea of 'leagues' comes from women.

Much of the criticism of men dating younger women is an attempt to shame men, to keep them from pursuing younger women. Of course, women should pursue younger men, because ... well they want to, and they're not men.

When I was younger, I used to resent older men who would date the girls my age, because they were competition and they had an 'unfair' advantage. But now that I'm in my mid 30's I see why they did. At this age, younger women are the only real option. Women my age are either married, or there's a good reason that they're not. Yes there are exceptions, but they're not nearly as common as the popular characterization of 30 something women conveys. So you have to date younger. For a man who wants a family, or at least a few years to get to know someone before having to marry and settle down with them, younger women are the only option.

Pete, I'm not trying to "shame" anybody. If anything, I'm trying to keep older guys from making a terrible mistake.

There's nothing wrong with you, in your mid 30s, dating women in their 20s, but guys in their 40s dating women in their 20s rarely works out long-term. Fine if they're just looking for a fling, but all too often, these guys are wanting to settle down and start believing this can work. But it takes an awfully mature 20 something to want to stick it out with a 40 or 50 something...or else, she's a woman more impressed with his status than truly "in love".

This is not necessarily calculated on the woman's part either. Truth is, it's more fun to date a guy with money than a guy counting his pennies - the limos, the fancy, romantic dinners, the exotic vacations. And fun experiences usually trigger more dopamine in our brains, which can be misinterpreted as love, so a young woman may genuinely believe she's in love with an older guy at first, but, after awhile, she'll realize it was more the lifestyle and experiences than him.

That's when she'll make her exit and break his heart, so it's best to avoid that scenario if you can. A smart guy like mpetrie is going to choose a woman closer in age. Early 30s is a great age for women - still hot and fertile, but with more maturity. Never marry anyone under 25. They just haven't had enough life experience to figure out who they are, much less who they love.

Oh, and for the record, I don't believe it's any smarter for an older woman to marry a much younger man. Having a fling is one thing, but I just can't see the Ashton/Demi thing working out long-term either, even when the woman looks as good as she does.

Martin, I see what you mean, defining class by types of profession rather than income and amount of cash available. And certainly, that is important to many people. It's a cultural thing rather than a financial thing you're getting at.

I would agree that a lot of people I know would rather be with a university-educated man with a middle class income than a filthy rich one without the university (or equivalent self-educated) background. I think you're absolutely right on that.

Re-posted from the other column on this guy.

Amy covered part of this already in her reply. However, here's my take:

I think this guy has fallen for some the myths about love and romance that are perpetuated by certain movies and music in our culture. Such as the idea of each of us having one true love and that we will magically connect with that person when we meet them. It has elements of the love at first sight idea as well. In addition, he has fallen in love with an imaginary person who only exists in his mind; however, he has assigned the name and face of a real person to his imaginary love. I used to do that all the time when I was younger. A couple of nasty divorces will cure him of that.

BTW, there seems to be a lot of misandry in the comments of this post. The urge that leads a woman to coo at a baby or say ‘awwww’ when seeing one, and the urge that leads a man to say ‘wow’ and stare at an attractive woman are both manifestations of the same biological drive. That is the drive to perpetuate the species. However, as a society, we have decided that the woman’s urge is wholesome and innocent and a man’s urge is not. Those of you who think older men who come on to younger women in bars and restaurants are creeps seem to be totally oblivious to the fact that a certain number of younger women flirt with older men to make better tips, or go further than that for other benefits. A man never knows what kind of woman he is talking to until she lets him know.

If a young woman invites the attention, then it's different. But, in this case, the woman avoids eye contact with him and has already rejected a date. She has let him know what kind of woman she is - the kind who doesn't date 40 yr olds. That's what makes this creepy.

I, like you, thought he was just a young romantic at first, but he's apparently over 40 and continues to pursue her despite her clear lack of interest.

It's ok to look and be attracted, but unless an older man (or any man) is getting clear cues of interest, it's creepy to keep coming onto a woman of any age, but particulary one young enough to be your daughter.

I find it equally creepy for an older woman, dressed like her teenaged daughter, to be making blantant advances towards a disinterested younger man. Maybe creepy isn't quite the word, but it's definitely "icky."

There's just something weird about anybody pursuing anybody young enough to be their own child. These biological urges existed so that we could mate during the prime mating season of our lives - when we ourselves were young - then we typically died. Not sure nature ever intended for older people to be lusting after the younger offspring. Obviously, males can probably plead the case for that more than females, since you never stop being able to reproduce, but I bet even in caveman days it was icky (for the females at least).

Ken, I replied to you in the other post as well, but I'll repeat it in case you are only reading one thread or the other.

There is a huge difference between cooing over a baby and checking out a member of the opposite sex.

I've never heard of anyone abandoning their baby for a cuter baby that checked out.

TONS of people, male and female, abandon their spouses for a cuter person they checked out.

That's why one is more socially acceptable than the other. Because there's really no danger of people ditching their babies for other babies, but there is a huge danger of people ditching their spouses.

The older guy as less desirable theme has been around for hundreds of years. It's a pretty standard plot device in medieval literature... young girl forced to marry older guy, but is really in love with younger guy. Tristam and Isolde, for example.

lovelysoul I don't think that you're trying to shame men, your comments have been pretty even handed. But as you can see in the other comments, many women go right to shaming.

FWIW I agree that a large age gap is likely to be a problem, and a 40 year old has no business pursuing a 20 year old, and especially the guy who'd written Amy.

But from what I've seen, and experienced, a gap of 7 to 10 years actually works well for many couples. Men age differently from women, both physically and psychologically. Men and women aren't in the same place at the same age. People often attribute this to maturity, but it seems to have more to do with outlook, ambitions, and physical and emotional 'energy'. Basically men stay younger longer. My non-scientific estimate would be that we're offset by about 10 years.

Many of the couples I know who are the same age have matured very differently through their thirties and into their forties, and it can create problems.

Pete, I agree with you. 7-10 years is a reasonable age gap. I don't believe the other women here have a problem with that either. And, as people get older, I even think the age gap can become broader and still work. A 60 yr old with a 40 yr old is vastly different than a 40 yr old with a 20 yr old.

I think what most of us object to, and certainly those of us with daughters, is the idea of an older man pursuing a young woman before she has a chance to grow up and establish her own identity. There is almost always an unhealthy power imbalance in those relationships.

"There's just something weird about anybody pursuing anybody young enough to be their own child."

I honestly don't see why not (presuming you mean someone of at least consenting age). If a 40-year old man lands himself a woman who is 18, she could bear him probably easily a dozen children (recall, this used to be the norm) before her reproductive abilities fade. If he lands himself a 35-year old woman, he might get two or three. This is one major reason it's natural for men to instinctively find 18-year old women attractive, and why it stands to reason that this should make sense. If you don't believe this is the case, check out any porn sites and see what sort of age seems to dominate (and no matter the age of the porn consumer, that 'ideal age' to look at remains constant ... 50 year old men don't actually get aroused looking at porn featuring 45-50yr old female, they basically get most aroused looking at porn featuring 18 year olds, no matter what age they are ... there are tiny variations and exceptions here and there, but this is by far the dominant preferred age.)

Conversely, if an 18-year old woman limits herself to sperm from the 18-25 year old male category, she *dramatically* limits her choice of mate (and, thus, the potential quality of mate). Quality of mate (typically borne out through status) is very important, I mean, after all, this is your offspring. So, an 18-year old woman who is interested in sperm from a much broader pool of males (i.e. of all ages - but PROVIDED they are high quality) will have many more choices from which to pick, and hence be able to pick someone of much better quality. This is why many younger women will still find older but high-status men like George Clooney very attractive.

Also, if there is a very high quality male, the more diverse the age range from which he can pick a mate, the more chance he has of producing offspring, which makes the herd stronger. E.g. if George Clooney lived in the cavemen era, and there are no females of his age range, it stands to reason that he should be open and willing to mate with younger females too anyway, as it will give him an opportunity to reproduce, over no opportunity.

The only reason we think it's weird now is because in our modern culture, we (a) have pedo-hysteria and (b) women attempt to stigmatise the behaviour in order to reduce competition. This stigmatisation is perpetuated by various means, including creating and pushing artificial "social norms". Stigmatising the behaviour is a natural instinctive defense mechanism for reducing mate competition.

Pursuing someone younger is not equivalent to pursuing your own offspring, this is a logical fallacy, and one chosen as a rationalisation for stigmatisation.

In practice, of course, humans are not 1-dimensional lust-bots, so our choice of partnerships is based on many other factors, just just our loins. But that doesn't mean we should deny the underlying truth of our ape natures.

"just just " => Correction, "not just"

Well, I think this "nature makes us do it" excuse is overused. There's a reason male testosterone levels decline rapidly after middle age. Grandpa may still want a 20 yr old, but that doesn't mean nature intended him to have one.

In fact, studies are now showing that children born of older fathers have more health and neurological issues, such as autism and ADD. So, nature probably didn't intend for older men to just keep reproducing forever. This is merely a byproduct of our extended lives.

And porn is not the best measure of reality. It's mostly produced by very juvenile, emotionally stunted men, whose ability to have quality relationships with real women is limited. They feed their market 18 yr olds, and males, being visual, will eat it up, for lack of better choices. The idea that this is someone's daughter - or the same age as their own daughter -is more easily dismissed because it's fantasy.

But, in real life, it's still creepy for an older person to be with someone their offspring's age. Trading status is one of the few ways it's ever been socially acceptable - more so for men than women - but it isn't natural or condoned by nature like men want to believe. Nature really doesn't want males to have different litters of unhealthy offspring spanning generations.

Older guy as less desirable mate is NOT a "modern" theme...

Tristan and Isolde
The Marriage of Figaro
Robin Hood's tale of Allan-a-Dale and Ellen
The Canterbury Tales
Fionn Mac Cumhail
Vis and Ramin
etc.

Are these modern tales? Much older men have NEVER been seen as more sexually desirable than young men.

Young men are more sexually desirable. Period. Sorry, but it is true. Older men conceive less healthy children, and are more likely to leave a woman widowed while she still has dependent kids. There is not a biological advantage to seeking out an older man.

Just because there is a biological advantage for older men to seek out younger women, DOES NOT MEAN THE REVERSE IS TRUE.

The guys are starting to sound like the older women who say, "But men SHOULD be more attracted to older women!!!"

The aging process doesn't affect mens' attractiveness as drastically or quickly as womens', but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

NOTE: I do distinguish between much older men and slightly older men. Slightly older men are considered most desirable in most cultures.

The bottom line is that young men are much more physically attractive than older men, just like younger women are much more physically attractive than older women.

Reproductively, younger is better for both sexes. Men don't like to own up to this, but if you want healthy babies, best for both the man and woman to be young. Just because you *can* have babies at 60 doesn't mean you *should* have babies at 60.

That said, I am 25 years older than my boyfriend of 7 years. He is the one who pursued me (still does) and he is the one with oodles of money and status. I got nothing. But I do think he should find someone his own age to settle down and have a family with, as I am neither interested or capable of either.

I have told him this many, many times, but he likes being with me because I don't want to get married, I am not an emotional nutcase, I don't call him 10x a day to ask when he's getting home, I don't make big scenes or trouble, I am not at all needy and demanding, if has to work and cancels plans with me, I don't care, in other words, I am nothing at all like his previous 20-something girlfriends.

Anyway, people like what they like. I for one like younger men and, lucky for me, younger men like me back.

Hey Mouse, I've got that going on too. I guess my guy likes me for the same reasons. As long as you're both happy, that's all that matters.

Please leave her alone. I was in this awkward situation when I was younger and it is EXTREMELY uncomfortable and even frightening.

I am constantly browsing online for posts that can assist me. Thank you! lets Play game