Light Boor
I was on a first date, and the guy arrived at the pub before me. The waitress took my order and asked if I'd like to start a tab. I paused, and when he didn't offer, I gave her my card. He ended up buying my next two drinks, and I had a pretty good time, but thinking about it now, I'm mad he let me pay at all. After all, he asked me out.
--Rehashing
On the bright side, when the final bill came, he didn't get up and make tracks for the ladies' room. Things are really confusing now about who pays. By the end of the date, he knew it was okay to pick up the tab. But, when the waitress first came, he had a millisecond to figure out are you a feminist, will you hate him for paying, accuse him of being personally responsible for lowering the glass ceiling 10 feet? Before he could work all that out, you'd handed over your Visa and ordered your appletini.
Ask yourself if you're quick to prosecute for something so minor because you go in expecting the worst. If so, you might change that, or instead of a boyfriend, you can have a grudge. And yes, the person who does the inviting should pay -- to a point. On the second date, it's nice to avoid being one of those women who, when the check comes, goes rooting around in her purse -- and pulls out a mint.
Don't let something so petty get in the way of something that could be good or at least a learning experience about pettiness.
Kendra at August 4, 2010 3:51 AM
Speaking of gender roles, what do you all think of today's Dear Abby?
***
DEAR ABBY: I have been living with my boyfriend for three years. We have often talked about a future together, complete with a house, kids, etc. I am the breadwinner while he is working hard to achieve success as an artist. The role reversal suits us just fine except for one thing. I would like to become engaged, but I feel I can't expect him to propose when I know he has very little money. Abby, should I propose to him? -- BREADWINNER IN NEW YORK, N.Y.
DEAR BREADWINNER: I don't see why not. It happens every day!
***
My thought is that he probably is already worried about his role as a man, and proposing would aggravate it.
I think all the gender stuff is very confusing and difficult to figure out, and I feel bad for the guy who didn't know if he should pay or not. I'd say that it depends on age, if you're in college she's more likely to be strident, but she's more likely to appreciate it out of college.
NicoleK at August 4, 2010 5:03 AM
Re Dear Abby - I see this a great time to reverse totally the 'send in friends for a recce'. She should get on of his male friends to feel him about her proposing ;-).
Yes, I feel sorry for men at the moment - it's confusing to know what to do.
AntoniaB at August 4, 2010 6:16 AM
"If so, you might change that, or instead of a boyfriend, you can have a grudge."
lol. It really seems lately that women are becoming so overly critical. A friend of mine just broke up with a nice guy, who clearly adored her, because he couldn't stop posting Facebook photos of the two of them and sharing his exuberance over the romance. She found his obsession with FB annoying, which I could see, but, you know, having a relationship can be annoying. We humans are annoying. Don't sweat the minor stuff.
If this guy had not offered to pay for the other drinks, she might have some cause for concern, but he's obviously not a cheapskate.
lovelysoul at August 4, 2010 6:52 AM
Something tells me that she's found something else to be mad about by now.
In my experience, women who'll deliberately look for reasons to be offended do so in order to exert control over other people. They're keeping score, but do so in a way that ensures that they're always owed something.
As for contemporary gender roles and dating, it's pretty simple - do exactly the opposite of what women claim they want and you'll be fine.
McGruff at August 4, 2010 7:38 AM
he couldn't stop posting Facebook photos of the two of them and sharing his exuberance over the romance .....
http://www.stfucouples(dot)com/
There is one for everyone, STFU parents, believers, conservatives, teens, everyone ...
meganNJ at August 4, 2010 8:59 AM
When I took my wife on our first date, I paid. We had both planned to be at a singles event the next night and I bought her drinks. On our next date, she grabbed the check. I liked that she didn't fight over the first check and that she didn't always expect me to pay.
I would always pay (or offer to pay) on the first date. If a woman did the feminist freak out, I know we wouldn't be having a second date. Sometimes, they calmly said they would like to pay their half of the bill and that was fine, too.
Steamer at August 4, 2010 9:21 AM
The fact that he paid for her next couple of drinks makes me wonder if he didn't even realize what was happening. Maybe as soon as he saw she paid for the first drink he wanted to try to make up for it.. not that I really think he should have to.
Angie at August 4, 2010 11:36 AM
If you're mad that he "let" you pay, will get also get mad if he "lets" you do other things?
ErikZ at August 4, 2010 1:23 PM
A lot of women are feminists until it comes time to pay.
David M. at August 4, 2010 2:22 PM
I am the breadwinner while he is working hard to achieve success as an artist.
An aspiring artist? That brings up not just a red flag, but an outdoor-size Chinese communist flag! As I understand it, most artists simply don't get anywhere without a day job. My uncle was in a number of bands, and even cut a tape, but in the end, he had to work a 9-to-5 too. Run like the wind!
/end thread hijack
mpetrie98 at August 4, 2010 4:19 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/08/light-boor.html#comment-1739631">comment from mpetrie98People can work hard to achieve success as artists -- while working day jobs until they're successful. I'd be wary of being the partner, male or female, of somebody who's using you as their financial support while they get to go after their funjob.
Amy Alkon at August 4, 2010 4:22 PM
That's precisely what I'm talking about. My dad tried to do that once. Since I had a full scholarship for college, he decided to move to Geneva with his wife, who works for the State Department, and to try to get a full-time artist career going. However, he wound up coming back to the U.S. later and working as a realtor. Fortunately, when his wife married him, he was working a graphic artist job for a county education department, so he was making some money.
mpetrie98 at August 4, 2010 4:27 PM
I'm with everyone else on placing this LW firmly in the "looking for a semi-legitimate reason to get mad and therefore reinforce my obviously self-fulfilling prophecy about men" column. I'm also with everyone on that he was probably taking all of two seconds to think about what she would want him to do in terms of paying. He was likely worried about offending her by offering to pay, as that's now such a minefield with some women. Also, what was wrong with starting a tab? I'd say that saving the money stuff on a first date for last would be a good idea if it's possible. Once he'd gotten used to talking to her, he'd probably have paid her tab, since he did pay for her other drinks.
NumberSix at August 4, 2010 8:50 PM
I don't let women pay on the first date, even if they offer. If they don't at least offer on the second I start to get worried. But then again I pay for lunch with friends who earn less than me sometimes too and don't expect anything for it.
He should have immediately offered - it's ok to hint that it's a one night deal not an offer to fund the rest of her life, "Let me get it for tonight" or something.
But it's not worth the LW getting worked up about it either. Is one free meal that important to you?
Ltw at August 4, 2010 10:00 PM
What a whore. And this is coming from a former escort who occasionally picked up the tab when clients took me out for dinner.
Razor at August 4, 2010 11:37 PM
For me it is a matter of principle. I do NOT let my date pay. As I see it, if I can't afford dinner with a pretty and precocious and pouncable wench with wit and wiles to spare and spar with, then obviously I need to work harder, smarter, or both until I can do so.
...That said though, if she orders the most expensive meal, she'd better be the best desert if she wants a second date! ;)
I don't have a problem with women who want to pay for dinner, I don't buy for women I'm not dating. But if we're dating then I'm paying or we're not dating.
Yes, I know this limits my pool of prospective dates, but that has never been a problem to me, I'm OK with that.
Know your standards and adhere to them.
Razor hit the nail on the head, but I'd have said bitch instead of whore.
-------------------
And as for the "artist" here is my take:
An artist who can make a living as an artist alone, he is a success.
An artist who is working a full or part time job to pay the bills while he masters his craft and tries to make it as an artist...he might not be a success, but he's an honest man success or failure.
An artist whom is looking for a government grant to create art is a lazy fraud, probably talentless too. (If people were willing to pay for his work, he wouldn't need the grant)
And last but not least, an artist who finds somebody else to pay the bills while he "tries to make it as an artist"...he is just a deadbeat.
Robert at August 5, 2010 4:05 AM
Dating has become such a dreadful bore.
Crash at August 5, 2010 4:56 PM
Dating has become such a dreadful bore.
Dating has always been awful. I hated it. Two strangers, sizing each other like fresh produce, wondering how the other fits into their own life smoothie.
Conversation most often ends up being stuff like: "My favorite color is blue." "My favorite color is blue, too." "Oh, wow, that's so interesting!" And then you have to figure out whether this is the kind of person you can tell all your dead baby jokes to, and the answer is usually no.
Or maybe that's just me.
MonicaP at August 6, 2010 8:24 AM
The best way to go about it MonicaP is to date without dating. Very zen sounding I know. What I mean is, join an activity that interests you. Volley ball, adventure club, book club, atheists anonymous, spaghetti monster in the sky lovers club (I'd stay away from NAMBLA) whatever in the world you love to do. Then don't treat anybody there like a prospective date. You already have the advantage of knowing you have things in common, and then once you already enjoy alot of time with one particular person, then consider making an official date.
Alternatively, you could just seek an arranged marriage, mail order groom, or something like that. *lol* :)
Robert at August 6, 2010 5:09 PM
MonicaP, I just tell the dead baby jokes (or otherwise expose whatever equivalent personality trait I'm worried about). Best way to find out. Anyway, it's usually not the thing you're worried about that turns out to be the deal-breaker but something completely different, so why worry?
I'm not saying disclose your entire life to a complete stranger, but you may as well put your real personality on show.
I don't date very much, but I've always had fun on them, even when they haven't worked out. But a lot of that comes from the rarity and waiting for people who sound pretty good from the start. If I was the type to ask people out in the street I might have had different experiences.
As I said in a comment on last week's column Robert, I still don't like the 'join a club' method of meeting people. What do you do when you've worked your way through the potential partners? Quit and do something else? Plus it's way too easy to end up in the friend zone that way. But I don't really care about shared interests, more about shared values, so I underestimate the importance of that to people.
Ltw at August 6, 2010 9:15 PM
It's not the dating, it's the people. Dating is enjoyable when you enjoy being with the person you're dating. But then it doesn't feel like a date, it's an opportunity to be together. So maybe it is dating that sucks ;)
But I do think that a lot of complaints about dating can be traced back to personal qualities. Once I got out of my twenties, dating took on a different character. Dates become more like interviews and the women I was meeting had been around the block a few times, so there was typically some baggage to deal with. Also many people become very selfish once they've been through a couple of failed relationships. They don't want to take any risks or make much effort, but demand that you bend over backwards to appease them. So they remain single. By the time you're past your mid thirties the dating pool seems to be made up primarily of damaged people.
Scott at August 7, 2010 8:47 AM
This is a problem? The guy didn't buy the first round of drinks? LW wrote to AA about this? Waa-waa about this?
That's it, and incontrovertibly: We are nation of weenies.
Are these weenie-missives real? Somebody actually writes for advice on this?
I began to suspect we had reached full weenie-hood when someone in Amy Alkon-land identifying himself as a "soldier" complained about the hardships of sleeping in tents. Oh, boo-hoo.
You know, a girl on a subway once flirted with me, and I didn't ask her phone number. Was I being too reserved, or is that the polite thing to do? I really need to know, and I have been agonizing about it for weeks.
BOTU at August 7, 2010 12:42 PM
Supporting an artist: My favorite cousin and cousin-in-law had a great deal going on. One would work a "real" job while the other pursued his or her passion, and then after a couple years they'd swap. Eventually his glass art caught on and he was able to support them with that, so she quit her day job and became a successful jewelry designer, and now they're both happy. So, it CAN be done, but it has to be a two-sided effort. Set a time limit and if his/her dream isn't working out by then, it's time for a day job for a couple of years. There's nothing like a good dose of Reality to infuse Art with some oomph!
Steve H at August 8, 2010 11:13 AM
Robert, everyone knows about the zen thing re: dating without dating. That's why they're doing it.
McGruff, something tells me you're right about the fact that she'll be looking for the next thing to complain about... however, i disagree with your last comment re: doing the exact opposite of what a woman *claims* she wants... there are lots of women out there who say what they mean and mean what they say. Game playing is for kids.
Personally, i think those yukky moments during a first date are things to look back upon with humor and built upon. If there was good chemistry between the LW and the date, i doubt she would find anything to complain about. Again, it's a case of "mismatch" if she is finding something to be upset about to the point where she is writing to Amy for advice.
So there were moments of uncertainty ~wow~ go figure. How could that happen on a first date?? /end sarcasm
Bluejean Baby at August 8, 2010 8:10 PM
David M said: "A lot of women are feminists until it comes time to pay."
OMG! I laughed so hard I shot soda out my nose!
Seriously though, feminism has really made it difficult to determine what the rules are anymore. These days, you could get put in jail for attempting a good night kiss!
Here is a good tip: When you pick your date up, look on her bookshelf while she is finishing getting ready. If she has any feminist or gender studies books on her bookshelf (they love to display them in the open) quietly back out the door and leave immediately.
mike at August 19, 2010 1:11 PM
My dates have always been with women considerably older than me(the youngest was 3 years older and the oldest was 12 years). And I have never had to pay. The moment my hand goes to my wallet, they tell me to hold back. So I guess if you want clarity on who should pay, a good age difference sets expectations clear.
Redrajesh at September 20, 2010 3:08 AM
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