Gregory Pecs
I'm a 35-year-old straight man in really good shape. I'm online dating, and want to post a picture of myself shirtless. A female co-worker says no way; women will be totally turned off. Really?
--Best Side Forward
Take your cue from women's magazines, which are wildly lacking in shots of men with greased pecs chopping wood and other popular gay calendar outtakes. While men are turned on by photos of the scantily clad opposite sex, that's just not what works for women. In fact, for most women, a man who shows off his body seems girly, and sends the message that he's vain: "I usually take my mirror on dates, but maybe I can make room for you!"
Because women seeking men generally prioritize success over looks, that's what you should be flexing, with subtlety, in your profile. It is a plus if you have the V-shaped body women favor -- broad shoulders tapering to a narrow waist -- but that'll come across just fine in a T-shirt and jeans. If you post a shirtless photo, your shirtlessness should seem incidental, like someone just happened to have a camera at beach volleyball...not like your shirt just happened to be off when you stepped in front of your hand which just happened to be holding your camera.
"Because women seeking men generally prioritize success over looks, that's what you should be flexing, with subtlety, in your profile."
Let's call a spade a spade. "Success" should be replaced with "money" as success without money isn't worth squat to a woman.
Jay J. Hector at November 2, 2010 8:18 PM
""Success" should be replaced with "money" as success without money isn't worth squat to a woman."
Not necessarily. I'd prefer a man who is motivated and ambitious and driven over someone who had boatloads of family money but sat on their ass all day.
Plenty of men who aren't rich are still very successful in relationships. Just as many women who don't look like supermodels find happiness and love.
In regards to the original question-six pack abs are a huge turn-on for most women, and if you've got it you should flaunt it. I would definitely find a picture in which you're going shirtless in a natural way-like boating or playing volleyball. Next time you go to the beach make sure someone has a camera. Taking a picture of yourself with a cell phone camera standing in front a mirror is so, so tacky though-that goes for girls too!
Shannon at November 2, 2010 8:35 PM
And women's magazines DEFINITELY have pictures of shirtless guys! Have you seen Cosmo?
Shannon at November 2, 2010 8:35 PM
It's not necessarily money, Jay. Amy talks about women's evolutionary draw to status, too, and status and success don't always mean just money. And when they do mean money, different women have different ideas about what kind of money that should be. Why I think Amy and the evolutionary psychologists say "success" instead of money is that success tends to translate to "I have set goals for myself and achieved them, which means I am not lazy or lacking the internal wherewithal to provide." That could just mean a man with a steady job with benefits, even if that job doesn't generate much income after the bills are paid. I'm not saying that women online aren't looking for guys with money, I'm just explaining it from the evolutionary point of view.
As far as posting a shirtless picture, please, please, please don't. At least a posed shirtless photo. I like looking at in-shape, shirtless guys as much as the next heterosexual woman, but it's going to seem like you're making your abs your big selling point. Which will likely not get you the sorts of dates you desire. Imagine a woman looking at your profile. With posed shirtless photo: "Wow, he has a great body! Oh, look, there's a guy who likes Fellini films!" With photo showing that you simply have a good body: "Cool, he's into Christopher Buckley books, too. And he's spent time overseas. Ooh, he's in good shape!" See what I mean? Your body is a bonus, not the product you should be trying to sell.
NumberSix at November 2, 2010 8:39 PM
And women's magazines DEFINITELY have pictures of shirtless guys! Have you seen Cosmo?
I haven't seen the inside of an issue of Cosmo in quite awhile, but I see the covers all the time in the supermarket checkstand line. Every single one of them has a very sexy picture--of a woman.
Rex Little at November 2, 2010 11:06 PM
Yup - I'm going with the wear something nice that shows off your stellar bod ... unless you want to attract women who are obsessed with working out.
The point is, as NumberSix says the package. If you're shirtless that's bringing the bod to the fore, making it the most important thing about you.
AntoniaB at November 3, 2010 5:39 AM
By all means, pose shirtless. Actually, pose in a Speedo, in front of your BMW. If you don't have one, just dash down to your local dealer, and do the shoot there. I'm sure they won't mind!
Actually, I agree with Miss Alkon and the other posters. Posing shirtless isn't something somebody over 21 should be doing for a dating site photo, for reasons that have been stated plainly in the comments above.
Old RPM Daddy at November 3, 2010 5:48 AM
> It is a plus if you have the inverted vee body
> women favor -- broad shoulders tapering to a
> narrow waist
I think "inverted vee" should be "inverted triangle." An inverted vee body would look pretty funny :)
Snoopy at November 3, 2010 6:40 AM
I like looking at in-shape, shirtless guys as much as the next heterosexual woman, but it's going to seem like you're making your abs your big selling point.
Totally agree, Number6. I need to know there's more to someone than just the bod.
o.O
Flynne at November 3, 2010 6:42 AM
Depends on the type of women you’re hoping to meet.
What women claim will work and what is actually effective are not necessarily the same.
nuzltr2 at November 3, 2010 7:12 AM
"I'm a 35-year-old straight man in really good shape. I'm online dating, and want to post a picture of myself shirtless."
I dunno, I think we need to judge for ourselves. Amy, is it possible for you to get a picture from LW and post it for us? I think we need some objective versus subjective data here. Purely from a clinical and scientific standpoint, absolutely no ogling, I promise. (deadpans)
Juliana at November 3, 2010 7:52 AM
I agree with Shannon, if you must be topless, pick a photo where you just happen to be topless.
On the other hand, I'm sure there is a subset of women who specifically like workoutaholics. If you are aiming for those women, because that's the particular type you like, its another issue. If your tastes are that specific you need to target accordingly.
If you want to cast a wider net... follow Shannon's advice.
NicoleK at November 3, 2010 8:02 AM
Sorry to disagree with you Amy but studies have been done. http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/the-4-big-myths-of-profile-pictures/
This one was done by an online dating site showing many interesting trends and misconceptions. One of them men with shirtless pictures get significantly more attention than regular photos. Only beaten out by photos with animals. Though it does have an age breakdown.
Joe at November 3, 2010 12:07 PM
I think the fact that he even asked this question suggests that there are deeper issues here. As RMP Daddy says, no one over 21 would think this is a good idea.
sheepmommy at November 3, 2010 12:14 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/11/gregory-pecs.html#comment-1776047">comment from JoeSorry, Joe, but there are two kinds of shirtless photos -- as I point out in my column. Okay to post: shot of you playing volleyball shirtless -- where shirtlessness is not the point. Cheesy: Photo of you holding a camera to shoot your abs in the mirror. Guys who preen are not attractive to women.
Amy Alkon at November 3, 2010 12:15 PM
But their research shows otherwise. The Cheesy ones work.
Joe at November 3, 2010 1:45 PM
Let's call a spade a spade. "Success" should be replaced with "money" as success without money isn't worth squat to a woman.
Posted by: Jay J. Hector at November 2, 2010 8:18 PM
----------------------------------
Jay you are spot on for many (not all) women.
They have actually done psychological studies in universities and shown the same guys to different groups of women. In some photos the guysare in a plain setting and in some the guys are pictured with an expensive sports car or big house etc...
Surprise! Surprise! Surprise as Gomer Pyle U.S.M.C. used to say. The same guys with backrounds of expensive homes/cars were rated as more attractive in those pictures than in pictures where no wealth was conveyed.
I have found that your average western woman is not honest with themselves or others in regard to sleeping with a man for money.
I have questioned women who say I would never dat a guy that is shorte than 5'10."
I say what about Tom Cruise? They say yeah I'd date him. I tell them he is abpout 5'8."
Yeah but they say he is Tom Cruise! And they never connect the dots and realize they will change their standards for a rich famous guy.
David M. at November 3, 2010 2:14 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/11/gregory-pecs.html#comment-1776092">comment from JoeBut their research shows otherwise. The Cheesy ones work.
Does their research show they "work"? I didn't pay that much attention at the link, and don't trust people's research easily. By "work" does that mean people looked at the profiles? Sure they do--women laugh at guys posed like that with their friends.
And again, a guy with his shirt off where the shirt being off is incidental to the photo -- totally different than a guy posed all "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful."
Amy Alkon at November 3, 2010 2:17 PM
He's more likely to get invitations from men if he poses shirtless. Unless that's the point.
ie at November 3, 2010 2:41 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/11/gregory-pecs.html#comment-1776121">comment from ieie is right. Gay men, a whole nother ball game.
Did the study adjust for that? Dunno.
Amy Alkon at November 3, 2010 2:58 PM
Re: "The research." It's worth noting that OKCupid is kind of a hipster hookup site in many ways. Yes, I'm sure that someone's great-aunt Myrtle once found a nice elevator salesman there, but in general, the people I know who've had success with it (all my reporting is 2nd hand since I'm all paired up) are relatively young and looking for something fairly casual, and often a bit "alternative" )couple looking for a playmate, bi-curious, friends with benefits, etc.) So in those cases, cheesy semi-naked pictures may be more the thing.
For my money, if a guy is in great shape, it will be apparent in clothing. A shot of you in flattering jeans and a close-fitting T-shirt makes it clear you have a nice body without being weird about it.
It's like a way less grody version of the apparently common thing of guys sending pictures of their naughty bits as a "howdy, how ya doing" e-mail. If I were dating, I would in fact like to date a man who had a penis. A nice one, even. Would that be the first thing I wanted to see from him? Oh heavens no. Would it make me hit "delete" and then wash my hands with Listerine? Yep. Same with a nice upper body--less automatic ick factor, but still. Get to know the person, then start taking your clothes off. Is that so tough?
anathema at November 3, 2010 3:39 PM
P.S. I assume Jay J. Hector is one of the "men's rights" blokes who seem to love this site so much? This seems to be their thing . . . gals only like guys with a big bank account, so if I'm not getting laid, it must be because I don't get paid enough. I agree that slackers aren't super attractive (unless they're really, really hot slackers, and you're a college student), but I'd agree with the folks above that someone less well-off but with drive and passion is way more exciting than a jerk with money. My husband is passionate about teaching, art, and sports. He doesn't make a lot of money, but the joy he gets in helping kids improve in school, in creating large-scale artwork, or in winning a bike race is way sexier than watching him cash a check and then go back to eating Doritos on the coach. Everyone measures success (and the concomitant sexiness) in her own way.
anathema at November 3, 2010 3:43 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/11/gregory-pecs.html#comment-1776163">comment from anathemaEveryone measures success (and the concomitant sexiness) in her own way.
My boyfriend is a literary researcher -- an entrepreneur who created his own job -- and the kind of guy who can always be counted on to do the right thing. That impresses the hell out of me, and P.S. I dated plenty of Hollywood guys before I met him, too, including one you see on screen.
Amy Alkon at November 3, 2010 3:51 PM
But their research shows otherwise. The Cheesy ones [ads] work.
You might be right, Joe, if we are talking about women.
ie at November 3, 2010 4:18 PM
Their working is not just looking but actually initiating contact.
Joe at November 3, 2010 5:45 PM
OKCupid is like the MySpace of dating sites. I wouldn't take their findings as indicative, unless you're looking for a 20 year old baby mamma or a guy with a tattoo on his neck. Also they do these studies as promotions. I'm not sure of how rigorous they actually are.
But to the point that someone made regarding the fact that women aren't candid about their preferences. This is absolutely true! Women must have some weird evolutionary adaptation that motivates them to lie about their preferences in men. I don't think that they're being deliberately deceitful, they really believe that they'd never respond to a picture of a shirtless guy, or a guy flashing money. But of course their actions speak otherwise.
jambonit at November 3, 2010 9:40 PM
jambonit, what we have been talking about on this thread is not that women won't respond to the LW's shirtless photo (or to the guy sitting in a Jag with a wad of money in his hand), it's that the women that respond may not be the ones the LW actually wants to date. And the ones he wants to date likely won't respond. Now, if the LW wants to attract women that want him purely for his ability to look like Peter Hinwood in the gold bikini, then go with the abs photo. But if he wants a woman who will appreciate that he has a good body while also being attracted to other aspects of him, then he should be a touch more subtle.
Same goes for a guy with a photo designed to show he has money. A guy sitting in a flashy car showing of his Patek Philippe will likely attract women who only want the matching flashy car and Patek Philippe. If he wants those women, then more power to him. But if he's going to flash cash and then complain that she only wants him for his flashy cash, then it's partly on him. The same for a woman who poses in a skimpy bikini and then complains that the guy only went out with her for her body. Subtlety is your friend.
Like I said above, it's one thing to highlight your assets, but it's another to make it the major selling point. You'll get people who only buy the expensive washing machine because it's expensive, and they're definitely out there. But if you want to date more quality people, then embrace the art of subtle selling.
NumberSix at November 3, 2010 11:02 PM
I wouldn't date Tom Cruise if I suddenly found myself single. He's a bit of an odd duck. And too many temptations in the Hollywood world.
NicoleK at November 4, 2010 5:21 AM
There was also a study where women were shown the same guy and were asked to rate his attractiveness.
Then another group of women were told these guys had recently won a large lottery.
Low and behold, the same guys, once the women were informed they were lottery winners were rated as more attractive.
David M. at November 4, 2010 6:23 AM
David, I wonder how men would choose if they were shown the same photo of a woman and some were told that she was 26 and another group told that she was 40 (and these days it's not hard to find young-looking 40 year olds). I wonder how they would rate the woman's attractiveness? My guess is the 26 year old would win hands-down.
Age is a currency men use to rate women. That's the way our genders work: men and women both judge, but they use different criteria.
ie at November 4, 2010 7:10 AM
@Snoopy: "I think "inverted vee" should be "inverted triangle." An inverted vee body would look pretty funny :)"
Off on a tangent -- I remember my dad complaining to my mother about the fit of a new shirt she'd bought for him. "But honey, it's a tapered shirt," she said. His reply, "But I'm tapered the other way!" She laughed.
Old RPM Daddy at November 4, 2010 8:09 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/11/gregory-pecs.html#comment-1776559">comment from Old RPM DaddyYou're absolutely right, Old RPM. How embarrassing! I think I'll correct that at least least.
Amy Alkon at November 4, 2010 8:33 AM
IE has a point. Neither gender is particularly fair towards the other when it comes to attraction, and neither want to admit it. Women put too much emphasis on money, and come off as mercenary, men fixate on youth and beauty, and come off as shallow. But at the same time each plays into the expectations of the other. Guys kill themselves to make enough to be attractive to women, and women kill themselves trying to look like a twenty one year old coed. But it's easy to get out of the game, by not playing. The risk is that you're taking yourself out of the running for probably 80% of the single population.
Nick at November 4, 2010 8:42 AM
The other option is to do as much as you think is reasonable, whether it's looking good or working hard, and fish in the pool available to you. For the vast majority of people, this pool ends up being pretty big anyway.
MonicaP at November 4, 2010 9:35 AM
ie is totally right. Have any of you ever seen that Millionaire Match-Maker show? I don't usually watch it, but one that I caught showed the host trying to set up a really handsome, wealthy, 40 something male with a really beautiful, wealthy, smart, 42 year old former model. He didn't want to take her out. He wanted the big breasted 25 year old waitress. He finally agreed to take her out and they had a great time. She was smart, classy, accomplished and you know what? He still went back for the waitress.
Maybe the guy from the show is the LW from the first letter wondering how he got stuck with a gold digging harpy who is unhappy with her new condition in life. You guys out here crack me up. All you talk about is how hot a chick has to be or its dumpsville for her and then you are SHOCKED when you find out little Miss Hottie was only in it for what you could provide. Then your story is, "All women are gold digging whores!! Never get married... just use them and lose them!!" Duh! But, at least when you hooked up/married her, her hip to waist ratio was just right. That is something, right?
sheepmommy at November 4, 2010 10:46 AM
Sheepmommy you've just described every other episode of Millionaire Matchmaker!
Here's what happens..
Late thirties to forty something Millionaire with maturity / emotional / personality issues goes to Patti the Super JAP, and tells her that he wants a 20 something hottie. Patti gets upset over 'ageism' , ignores his wishes, and attempts to hook him up with a woman nearer his age. It doesn't work out, because he just wants to screw a 25 year old girl.
But you can't necessarily blame the guys, because the truth of the matter is that Patti started her show when she came under investigation for running an escort service. That's what MM really was, the matchmaking was a cover. So these idiots probably think that she's going to match them up with hot escorts.
Patti Stanger at November 4, 2010 12:36 PM
Gotta go with Amy on this one... any guy who posts a pic of himself online shirtless, unless it's the Chippendales' Web site, is going to come across as very stuck on himself.
Cousin Dave at November 4, 2010 12:49 PM
"You're absolutely right, Old RPM..."
Snoopy's call, not mine, Miss Alkon. It just reminded me of something funny (to me, anyway).
Old RPM Daddy at November 4, 2010 2:30 PM
"I have found that your average western woman is not honest with themselves or others in regard to sleeping with a man for money."
I love how when the topic is men being attracted to young, thin women, the explanation is "Well it's BIOLOGY!!" but when the topic is women being attracted to rich, famous men the explanation is that women are gold-digging whores.
If you accept that we have evolved preferences for certain qualities, then you need to accept that it goes both ways.
If you think that you deserve a great woman despite the size of your wallet, then you should probably be dating the women over as Jezebel who think they deserve a great guy despite the size of their waistline.
Shannon at November 4, 2010 6:06 PM
Pattie are you serious? I've thought the whole thing sounds like a front for prostitution ring but I have never seen anything about it the news. That is too funny.
Sheepmommy at November 4, 2010 6:18 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/11/gregory-pecs.html#comment-1776771">comment from ShannonI love how when the topic is men being attracted to young, thin women, the explanation is "Well it's BIOLOGY!!" but when the topic is women being attracted to rich, famous men the explanation is that women are gold-digging whores.
Funny, that's not what I wrote in the piece. Have you actually, you know, read it?
(P.S. Shannon is posting just in any damn place about my Psych Today piece on myths and realities about beauty.)
Amy Alkon at November 4, 2010 6:22 PM
>> Pattie are you serious?
Yes. MM used to charge for dates. It was basically operating as an escort service. That's why in the earlier seasons, you'd see head shots pasted all over the place. They weren't recruiting new girls for every client, they had a stable of regulars, with headshots!
Patti Stanger at November 4, 2010 7:33 PM
Look, people, it's really simple. If you deliberately do something to attract someone, you will get a certain type of person who may only be attracted to said "thing." And if you change, or circumstances change, that person may not be attracted to you anymore.
To use real examples:
If you put on furry suit, you will attract furries. Refuse to put on the suit and your furry playmate will leave.
If you want a hot guy or girl, you either make yourself hot or make yourself a lot of money. Get fat or get poor and Hottie Mchotterson is out the door. And rightly so.
So, yes, LW, go ahead and use the shirtless photo. But to keep any woman you attract with that bait, you will have to keep your physique. I don't want to see you here in a couple of years crying that your wife left you because you got fat.
MissFancy at November 5, 2010 10:18 AM
Amy - loved the article in 'Psych Today'. Thoughts on how we in America end up being hooked into the 'young' part of what's sexy and attractive. French women don't try to look like a twenty-year-old. Is it the media (where everyone is young and/or airbrushed)? Is it because women here give up looking elegant and chic? Is it our general approach to sexuality?
To me, that's a great difference I see in between women in their forties and fifties here and women of the same age in Europe.
AntoniaB at November 5, 2010 1:12 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/11/gregory-pecs.html#comment-1777382">comment from AntoniaBThanks, Antonia. They have loads of media in France with pictures of young women, so I wouldn't blame the media. They're a bit like the US in the 50s, when women who were older didn't let themselves go. As I wrote in the piece, I think it probably relates to the fact that feminism was and is just yet another bit of academic philosphy in France -- it didn't seep into mainstream culture as a form of fundamentalism the way it did here. So, as a wide population of women of all ages used to take care of themselves, that hasn't changed for the French.
Amy Alkon at November 5, 2010 1:46 PM
That's interesting. I haven't been to France in a while, but the UK has many older newsreaders/reporters, actresses etc (who don't get botox and plastic surgery), which is why I wondered that.
It's the way that American women choose to take care of themselves that I find baffling - looking like mutton dressed as lamb (love that phrase ;-).
I do agree that the way femanism has been absorbed in Europe is different and I see why you say it's down to that.
AntoniaB at November 5, 2010 1:59 PM
@Antonia: now you know why I live in a French province!
ie at November 5, 2010 2:39 PM
Amy- I wasn't referencing your Psych Today article specifically although I can see why you might think that. I was referring to the double standard that some people seem to hold that men being attracted to young, thin women = biology, while women being attracted to wealthy men = shallow. Obviously there are plenty of women who hold the reverse of this double standard but I see it being expressed more frequently by men in this forum.
Many commenters have made multiple posts about your Psych Today article, as you have blogged about it multiple times. Maybe my comments stood out because I wasn't singing the party line. I actually agree basically 100% with the article (as I almost always do with your advice!) but I can understand why the women at Jezebel wouldn't agree based on their totally different set of values and priorities, which is what I commented about.
Shannon at November 5, 2010 2:46 PM
ie: I hear you! I have a great friend in Montreal - love visiting him.
AntoniaB at November 5, 2010 2:47 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/11/gregory-pecs.html#comment-1777422">comment from ShannonI can understand why the women at Jezebel wouldn't agree based on their totally different set of values and priorities, which is what I commented about.
They don't substantiate any of their accusations about my piece -- they just call me names, call my dog "insipid," and generally say the piece and I are both horrible and insults to...feminism, women, life itself.
I have yet to get ONE piece of mail or read one comment that makes a substantiated criticism about the piece.
Amy Alkon at November 5, 2010 3:08 PM
I don't usually watch it, but one that I caught showed the host trying to set up a really handsome, wealthy, 40 something male with a really beautiful, wealthy, smart, 42 year old former model. He didn't want to take her out. He wanted the big breasted 25 year old waitress.
Let me know when that rich, beautiful, ex-model marries a waiter.
ErikZ at November 5, 2010 6:18 PM
@ErikZ, you're obviously trying to be funny, but think about what you're saying.
Many women look for providers, just like many men (especially the one above) look for youth and big breasts. Why should a beautiful 42 year-old woman settle for a man she's probably going to have to support if she wants to continue her standard of living?
It's like you're saying she's wrong to want what she wants. But as some others have been pointing out, that works both ways. The man in this anecdote wants a younger, less accomplished woman with bigger, er, curves.
So, if we're making jokes about this, I'm sure there are a few good ones out there regarding this man's need for big breasts, no? Jokes about oral fixations, his need for a "mommy", etc. Maybe the guy even likes dressing up in adult diapers on his weekends off. Who knows?
See, ErikZ, jokes are fun for everyone.
ie at November 6, 2010 4:43 AM
Like others have recommended, the LW could probably get a photo in there that shows off his physique if it's one that's appropriate to the context, and not conspicuously vain. Like an action shot, or something funny. The guys who go wrong are the ones who post amateur model shots, where it's all about them showing off.
Showing your physique could help in a couple of ways. Firstly it'll attract women who like sex. Secondly it will establish some basic standards - I'm assuming that the LW is looking for someone who's in decent shape as well.
Women are never going to acknowledge that a little beefcake might help, but it almost certainly will. The only risk is that your photo is too much and scares off women wanting to avoid alpha meatheads.
Have several women you trust give you some candid advice on this, and whether you've actually got the body to pull it off. Don't be offended if they tell you that you don't. People can have very different ideas of what 'really good shape' means.
roddy at November 6, 2010 7:06 AM
I love your comments, ie.
RozitaTee at November 6, 2010 8:55 PM
I would advise against it, unless the LW WANTS to look like a total tool, or WANTS to attract the type of woman who goes for the Situation...the type who is likely to get drunk, barf, and slap the girl next to her the first time you take her out for a drink.
Choika at November 7, 2010 8:03 AM
"They don't substantiate any of their accusations about my piece -- they just call me names, call my dog "insipid," and generally say the piece and I are both horrible and insults to...feminism, women, life itself."
When I skimmed through the comments, the arguments that I saw (minus the ad hominem attacks) were largely anecdotal, ie: "My husband finds me attractive when I'm fat/wearing sweatpants/no makeup therefore your research cannot be correct."
Obviously that's silly because your piece is talking about MOST men, not 100% of men. The Jezebel commenters fail to realize that they may have found the 10%/5%/.01% of men who really don't care about appearance, but that doesn't mean that their strategy works for the majority of women. I do get where they're coming from because they're probably trying to find the kind of guy who thinks that lipstick is an evil tool of the patriarchy, but they seem incapable of acknowledging that their experience/priorities are not universal.
(Sorry to hijack this thread on an unrelated topic, just wanted to clarify that I am not actually arguing with your article here or anywhere else!)
Shannon at November 7, 2010 1:52 PM
I would say Amy's spot on. Looks are only of secondary importance, however, they are still a draw. Otherwise Burt Reynolds would never have posed naked in Cosmo all those years ago, along with the famous Jim Palmer underwear ads. (Apparently chest hair was in, once upon a time.)
But it's important to note that both Reynolds and Palmer were already recognized successes.
I would say it's also important to display your stability. Not your emotional stability (although the ladies are hoping you are, of course) or financial stability, but your commitment to a relationship. George Clooney has both success and looks in his favor. However, he's still not a good catch for most women, because he's indicated that he has no intention, now or ever, of walking down the aisle.
A shirtless photo (unless it's incidental, as Amy described) would more likely suggest "player."
Patrick at November 8, 2010 11:28 PM
I may be weighing in a little late, but Joe have you actually read OkCupid's research?
OKCupid's findings support Amy's claim. Hot shirtless pictures elicited more meetings than average.... from 19 year olds. But as women got older, the ratio decreased closer to average.
"Because of our restricted data set for this post, we can only make confident claims for 19 to 31 year-olds right now, but it’s our strong suspicion that this downward trend continues with age."
What the quoted paragraph means is that OkCupid thinks women who would be interested in the 35 year old letter writer will NOT be more likely to contact him because of a hot shirtless picture.
Furthermore, OkCupid is not a research institution. They ran statistical data and found correlations. Whether or not they analyzed or interpreted those correlations correctly is an entirely different ballgame.
In short, their research is not actual scientific research and should not be used as a factual base for an argument. Research that isn't actual research should, at worst, be taken with a grain of salt, or at best, ignored.
Lili at November 10, 2010 5:35 PM
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