Extremely Old Spice
I'm a 40-something married woman with an unwanted admirer. Last year, an 80ish married man, a member of my literary club, called me, confessed his passion for me, and begged me to have a romantic dinner with him. I reluctantly made plans to meet "Romeold" for coffee, intending to let him down gently. He took this "date" as a green light to e-mail me a lurid "fictional" story -- a detailed blueprint for the affair he wanted us to have. Horrified, I canceled, apologized for any confusion, and made it clear that no affair was going to happen. He replied with a terse "So be it!" I avoided him all year, missing many club meetings. Last month, I ran into him at one. I was civil, but left him to chat with others. Afterward, he e-mailed a "special invite" to a critique group he's started at his house. When I didn't reply, he sent another invite with a bizarre faux-pology. I haven't replied, and feel I can no longer attend the meetings due to his fixation on me. How can I get it through Romeold's thick, balding skull that I'm totally uninterested and to please leave me alone?
--Pursued
The elderly horndog can be kind of cute -- when he's working the senior moment angle and asking all the girls in the bar, "Say, do I come here often?"
It's a whole lot less cute when the horndog isn't some random old man but somebody you know socially; somebody who sent you "a detailed blueprint" of exactly what he'd like to do to you with his veiny, wandering hands. Never mind that this attention was utterly unprompted by you, that you're both married, and that he's twice your age, meaning that the movie stud he most closely resembles is Yoda.
Where you went wrong is in not shutting the guy down right away. You don't make a date with a guy to tell him you don't want to date him. You especially don't when the guy starts hitting on you at defcon "Let's play Doctor Zhivago!" Chances are, you didn't respond as you did because you're some naive bunny, but because you're a woman. Women evolved to be the nurturers and peacemakers of the species, making them prone to shove aside their best interest in favor of preserving people's feelings. True to form -- as a woman -- you even apologized for causing "any confusion." By doing what, existing in his eyeline? It's not like you plopped into his lap in an I Heart Grandpa t-shirt and asked for an, um, oral history (starting in his boyhood years, back when families subscribed to the Dead Sea Scrolls instead of the newspaper).
Don't be "civil" to this creepus. Don't be anything to him -- unless he persists in approaching you or contacting you, in which case, you should be the person who says "Don't contact me, don't speak to me, don't come anywhere near me." In the future, resolve that your safety and comfort level will take precedence over not wanting to hurt or disappoint people or seem rude or unsympathetic. There's a time to respect your elders and a time to recognize one of them for the dirty old masher he is. Yeah, sure, there's all the "Do not go gentle into that good night" stuff he's been reading, but I'm pretty sure the rest of that isn't "Get her alone after lit crit group and blurt out, 'Say, young lady, wanna see if I'm wrinkled all over?'"
I wonder if this man has always acted like this or if it's a relatively recent development. While his behavior is unacceptable for a person of any age, I'm going to take a page from Margo Howard and throw out the idea that maybe Romeold has some kind of neurological dysfunction due to his advancing years. I don't think the LW owes this man anything, but if she does have to coexist somewhat with him (and the alternative is her hiding from the activities she enjoys), maybe it'd be a good idea to mention to his family that he's been acting out of character lately. If he really is acting out of character, then she's making them aware of possible brain problems they may not be privy to. If he's just using the "C'mon, I'm old and therefore you can't shoot me down" approach, well, then she's letting them know she finds his behavior unacceptable.
If he has no family or caretaker, then I guess she's SOL as far as the book club goes unless she can speak to whomever organizes things about how this man has been acting. If he's acting that creepy, then it's worth trying to get him to be the one to leave. Screw the civility: spell it out for him like Amy says. Do not leave it ambiguous. I've done it (though with someone closer to my own age) and the behavior doesn't just magically go away.
NumberSix at February 2, 2011 12:49 AM
This kind of behavior can be an early sign of dementia. I hope he has family close by.
crella at February 2, 2011 1:47 AM
For some people, rejection is a kind of aphrodisiac. I've had this happen to me recently.
He was a man I met through an outdoors club. When he emailed me a sexy message, about a year ago, I shut him down right away, but he harboured feelings for me regardless. I could tell by his body language when I attended activities with the group.
Just last week, he approached me and teased me about not being friendly enough. I'm not sure what he was thinking because I gave him the clear message about that year ago that I wasn't interested, so I looked puzzled and latched on to the nearest person so that he couldn't get me alone. What followed was an email the next day asking me to go to a movie.
Well, I spent this past year watching this guy out of the corner of my eye because I knew he wasn't fully accepting my "no." And there were excursions--overnight ones--that I avoided because of it.
So I did the thing I know Amy won't agree with, but with this last message, I emailed him back and told him I was already taken. I said that this weekly activity is one thing I do without my partner. He emailed me back thanking me for taking him "out of limbo", which really had me shaking my head because, as I said, I was clear with him about saying no. I can't believe he harboured feelings for over a year.
The thing is, some people, men and women, actually do this to themselves: they get fixated on someone and then torture themselves about the person's unavailability. That's what this man was doing to himself. I don't think I was necessary in the equation other than as a symbolic person for him.
It might be the same with this guy, or it might be the start of dementia. I'd hate to get rough with someone that age, but the LW always has the option of saying she'll tell his family. Or get her husband to talk to him. Somehow men seem to respond to other men telling them to back off (at least that's my impression).
It's a real drag to live under the cloud of an unwanted infatuation. I spent a year being uncomfortable around this guy and I think that's a shame. For him and for me.
ie at February 2, 2011 4:49 AM
You kinda don't know which one to feel bad for, LW for being stalked by a geriatric patient, or him for embarrassing himself that badly.
Either way, too funny!
Bahahahahahahahaha!
Angie at February 2, 2011 5:36 AM
The part about agreeing to meet him for coffee got an out loud "WHAT?" from me. I feel no urge whatsoever to "let down gently" a person who is attempting to bring about the breach of marriage vows (either his or my own). If it is dementia, I feel sorry for him, but this is ridiculous.
Lyssa at February 2, 2011 10:56 AM
Quite right, Lyssa - I reserve my "letting him down gently" to men who aren't trying to cheat on their wives (or get me to cheat on my fella, when applicable).
& ie, I think it's more the fact that their behaviour has been ratted out to another person, more than whether the other person is a man, I find. If the guys is too persistant to the point of borderline harrassment, it is usually a tactic.
These guys think they can "wear you down" - which may have been the case with managing to get her to go out for coffee, after she'd already resisted his advances - and if they realize they don't exist in a vaccuum, that helps.
hahahathud at February 2, 2011 12:46 PM
"I avoided him all year, missing many club meetings."
You've been consciously avoiding the club all year, so from your perspective it's this "big thing" in your mind now, that has been affecting you in an ongoing way. But he doesn't know that you've not been going there just to avoid him, so this entire narrative has been going on in your mind for a long time, but I bet he probably hasn't given it nearly as much thought, and I doubt he realizes it's affecting you to this extreme degree (since it's not like he did anything really odd, other than be old, that isn't in line with normal expressions of male interest).
So remember, from HIS perspective, he's just flirting with some woman who 'happens to come to the club very seldom' (since I presume you haven't specifically told him you're avoiding the club because of him, and I doubt it's something a guy would reasonably assume, since it's not like he attacked you or anything, he just expressed an interest in you, something men do, even old ones, and because he probably scores seldom, and because you agreed to see him before, it's reasonable for him - in his mind - to take a chance on asking you out again - since you haven't expressed disinterest.)
Remember, you FEEL like you've been expressing disinterest for a LONG time by avoiding the place. But that's not a communication of disinterest; simply not being at the literary club very often is not a reasonable communication signal of disinterest. Most people would just regard that as a sign that you're not that into the club. So you feel like you've been communication disinterest for AGES, and that's what makes him seem "fixated" to you, but really you haven't communicated anything of the sort. Not showing up, doesn't count as communication of that sort.
Know what you've gotta do? Just tell him 'sorry but you're not interested, nothing personal'.
Then if he *still* keeps after you, then you can call it a "fixation". But right now it seems to me the "fixation" has really been stronger in your mind than his - you're the one obsessively worrying about and avoiding him, to the extent of even avoiding the entire club, which actually seems a little extreme to me, but it's a chick thing.
Lobster at February 2, 2011 2:44 PM
"but it's a chick thing"
Lol, correction, should've read "but maybe it's a chick thing". Meaning, I'm a guy so I wouldn't know and maybe it's normal for women to often do things avoid clubs for an entire year to avoid a guy who showed interest in them.
Lobster at February 2, 2011 2:46 PM
"You don't make a date with a guy to tell him you don't want to date him" and "The part about agreeing to meet him for coffee got an out loud "WHAT?" from me"
Yeah, this is quite weird. I suspect that she probably isn't all that accustomed to unwanted mail attention, and that she perhaps initially subconsciously felt either flattered or a bit 'curious'. Then she realized she was indeed not interested in him. But forgot to properly communicate this.
Lobster at February 2, 2011 2:50 PM
"unwanted mail attention"
Lol, OK, it's clearly one of those days, I should just put down the keyboard.
Lobster at February 2, 2011 2:51 PM
"unwanted mail attention"
Is that like spam?
lovelysoul at February 2, 2011 5:57 PM
When I was a teenager, I did not know when girls wanted my attention. Now, that I am in my 60s, I still don't know. This just proves to me that men will never know, so just try for every one possible. F*** the consequences.
ken at February 2, 2011 6:37 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Romeold is doing this with several women. He's probably just trying to get some play.
jj at February 2, 2011 7:37 PM
I think the fact that he wrote a lurid email to her puts him in a somewhat more worrisome category, and I don't think his behaviour is as casual as it appears on the surface. He might be doing this to a lot of women, but my guess is that there'd be more consequences for him if he was.
Women are usually afraid of men who act this way. It's easy to make it sound like the problem is mostly in her head, but I've known men who have responded in exactly the same way when the tables were turned. There's something deeply uncomfortable about having someone's lusty eyes following you around a room, especially when it's someone you feel zero attraction for.
Most of us are willing to tell someone 'no,' but taking things a notch higher and telling them off--for feeling attracted to us and acting on it--just feels risky.
I didn't tell the guy in my situation off because I didn't know how he was going to respond (although I was pretty sure it wasn't going to be by throwing a party to congratulate me on my honesty).
I also didn't want to cut myself off from this outdoors club completely, so I kept going, but scaled back because I just had that 'monitored' feeling when the guy was around.
The LW's avoiding this guy might sound excessive and it's easy to quantify it as in "OMG she missed all those meetings over this?" Moreoever, it's easy to make it sound like she's the one with the problem since she's the one writing in and expressing concern. But I totally get where she's coming from. Most of us don't like the discomfort of these situations and when you add to that that the person causing the discomfort is probably unstable, avoiding them feels instinctively safer and sensible.
A couple of columns back a few women posters said they wouldn't reject a man in person because of the problems they'd had in the past (with guys going beserk). I'm guessing the LW was thinking along the same lines.
Personally, I think threatening to send the lurid email to his wife might have worked, but of course that's something that may have caused more a stir in the LW's social circle, a bigger stir than she was willing to make.
ie at February 2, 2011 8:09 PM
"I suspect that she probably isn't all that accustomed to unwanted mail attention, and that she perhaps initially subconsciously felt either flattered or a bit 'curious'. "
Cmon. He's EIGHTY. I think it's more likely that she figured he's old, lonely, and harmless, and that it wouldn't hurt to have a cup of coffee with him. It's not like they went to a nightclub.
Shannon at February 2, 2011 10:21 PM
really love ... "Say, do I come here often?" !!
laser plumb bob at February 3, 2011 9:46 PM
Great point, Shannon. It also sounds as if the both of them are part of a tight social circle. Given his age and the potential for embarrassment, she probably thought coffee would be a discreet way of handling it. Why? Because telling him “no thanks” within sight or earshot of others in their social circle may have prompted a scene. When you think about how histrionic he must be to write her a lurid email, it's quite possible he WOULD go that route.
Rejected lovers do this for revenge all the time. The guy in my case discussed his "being in limbo with me” with a couple of other men in my outing group. I think he did it to give them the impression that there was actually something going on between us. It was all unbeknownst to me of course and these other men had no way of knowing that it was all fantasy on his part.
Now I'm single and so there's no danger of this man's fantasies endangering an intimate relationship. However, it would be entirely different if I were dating or married. His behaviour would feel far more problematic and I might be tempted to pull him aside, away from the rest of the group, and to sort it out.
ie at February 4, 2011 5:14 AM
Great point, Shannon. It also sounds as if the both of them are part of a tight social circle. Given his age and the potential for embarrassment, she probably thought coffee would be a discreet way of handling it. Why? Because telling him “no thanks” within sight or earshot of others in their social circle may have prompted a scene. When you think about how histrionic he must be to write her a lurid email, it's quite possible he WOULD go that route.
Rejected lovers do this for revenge all the time. The guy in my case discussed his "being in limbo with me” with a couple of other men in my outing group. I think he did it to give them the impression that there was actually something going on between us. It was all unbeknownst to me of course and these other men had no way of knowing that it was all fantasy on his part.
Now I'm single and so there's no danger of this man's fantasies endangering an intimate relationship. However, it would be entirely different if I were dating or married. His behaviour would feel far more problematic and I might be tempted to pull him aside, away from the rest of the group, and to sort it out.
This woman sounds intelligent and sensitive. I would give her the benefit of the doubt on the coffee issue.
ie at February 4, 2011 7:00 AM
Amy, maybe I'm just being sensitive, so maybe you can explain why you felt the need to insult the old guy's age characteristics, such as "veiny hands", "Yoda", "wrinkled all over". I get why you mention physical characteristics when they're something a person can change by taking better care of him/herself. But this guy looks old by virtue of being old, and there's not much he can do about it.
The older I get, the more obvious age-ism becomes to me. I'd like to say to some of the young boors who insult older people by pointing to their age - remember that you are only a few short years behind. One day you will sag, too!
It's your column and I respect your right to say what you want. I'm just sayin.
Laurie at February 4, 2011 8:43 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/02/extremely-old-s.html#comment-1836577">comment from LaurieAmy, maybe I'm just being sensitive, so maybe you can explain why you felt the need to insult the old guy's age characteristics, such as "veiny hands", "Yoda", "wrinkled all over".
You are "just being sensitive." I'm a humor writer; I make fun of everyone.
Certain groups that aren't PC to make fun of elicit comments like yours.
PC I have veiny hands. They're scary looking in photos. It's because I'm thin.
Also, we'll all look like Yoda when we're old.
Amy Alkon at February 4, 2011 8:52 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/02/extremely-old-s.html#comment-1836580">comment from Amy AlkonPS Here's a photo of my veiny hands -- and arms. Scary, huh? Kind of like one of those science dolls we had when we were kids showing all the veins, etc.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2478/3672962894_35ab862a5c.jpg
Amy Alkon at February 4, 2011 8:55 AM
Point taken. I've been pretty sensitive about my age lately. Mostly because I feel like an 18 year old trapped in a body that's melting on me.
Laurie at February 4, 2011 9:15 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/02/extremely-old-s.html#comment-1836591">comment from LaurieSorry you feel that way, Laurie, but all we can do is use the time we have to the fullest. I also recommend wearing sunblock -- I wear the most protective there is: Anthelios #60. I also take vitamin D, which is not as good as getting sunlight, apparently, but that's one of those corners I choose to cut. I take 5,000 iu, and test out to 64 (forget what the little measurement initials are), which is very good.
Additionally, I don't eat carbohydrates, save for the few in green beans, cheese, because they seem to have very negative effects on health. It's possible, even, that Alzheimer's is "diabetes of the brain," but that's still just speculation. More on sources of good dietary science on my blog.
Amy Alkon at February 4, 2011 9:22 AM
Some people are either remarkably bad at sending the right signals of availability. Others however are pretty good at sending mixed signals in order to generate attention, but then get freaked out when those signals result in undesirable attention.
I feel like this situation could have been handled much better if when this guy asked her out for a romantic dinner and she instead "reluctantly made plans to meet" for coffee she instead told him that she wasn't available for a private meeting, but that if he and his wife wanted to join her and her husband for coffee that would be fine.
Doing something like that instantly short circuits any romantic thoughts this guy would have as it would be clear from the get go that if he wanted to meet up with her, his wife and her husband would have to be present.
It is kind of hard to put the moves on someone when your wife and their husband are sitting at the same table.
Keeping this in mind I am forced to question whether she is just inept at sending the right signals, or if she was sending exactly the signals she wanted because she was flattered by the elderly mans attention up until the point he crossed a line with the erotic e-mail.
Whenever I feel like I there is the potential for unwanted romantic attention from someone and they want to do something, I always make it clear that I would be happy to go out, but that I first need to check if my significant other is available for whatever the activity happens to be. If they lose interest in doing something at that point it becomes clear that just going out as friends wasn’t their main priority.
Reality at February 4, 2011 10:06 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/02/extremely-old-s.html#comment-1836623">comment from RealityI feel like this situation could have been handled much better if when this guy asked her out for a romantic dinner and she instead "reluctantly made plans to meet" for coffee she instead told him that she wasn't available for a private meeting, but that if he and his wife wanted to join her and her husband for coffee that would be fine.
No. A man is likely to see anything but a total shutdown as a glimmer of hope on the horizon.
Working now, can't comment in detail, but see Martie Haselton and David Buss on "Error Management Theory" and see Martie's study that mentions the Safeway lawsuit.
Actually, I forgot, wrote about EMT. Details here:
http://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2007/01/too-mush-of-a-g.html
Amy Alkon at February 4, 2011 10:23 AM
I have had this problem even when I have been very clear and direct about my disinterest. It is harassment, she does not detail things but I remember after saying "No, but thanks for asking" constant off color remarks designed to make it seem something had happened between us. I finally had to say calmly but directly in front of other people for him to stop that and not only had nothing personal ever happened between us but nothing ever would happen between us and I would like him to stop saying personal sexual comments to/about me. After I did that several people both male and female thanked me for calling him on his behavior. You see the men were tired of hearing it and other women had been the target of it.
This 80 year old sent a lurid e-mail detailing the affair he hoped to have with her. Come on everyone that is major creep behavior, he had not yet had a private conversation with her and then after she broke the coffee date and told him nothing was going to happen between them still saying he was in limbo? There is a disconnect at work here.
Many women will avoid someone they feel has been creepy. I belong to an outdoors club that the board is always wondering how we can attract younger people to the club. I have several younger female friends who told me they came to a few activities but were so mobbed by men double their age with sexual innuendo, and in some cases getting pinched or patted on their rear. When I had those 4 young women come to a board meeting and tell the board why, they were dismissed as being too sensitive....
In the end, there is no reason to keep the creeps secrets. You can call me a bitch but anymore when I get a completely inappropriate come on, I am not quiet about it. A creep (most men are not creeps) relies on secrecy, I don't keep their harassment secret anymore. The result? I have fewer mashers and more nice serious guys to talk to at gatherings.
worthit at February 4, 2011 11:20 AM
Amy,
Based upon what you quoted I'm not sure why a "total shutdown" is necessary when one can instead alter what the least costly option happens to be.
Based upon error management theory, wouldn't it hold that if someone altered the costs in a given scenario that the errors in judgment someone makes would be similarly altered?
If that is the case, then wouldn't bringing along significant others change the costs involved in his pursuit?
I mean, if his wife or her husband felt he was being inappropriate, the cost for those choices on his part go through the roof.
While I agree that a “total shutdown” is valid in many situations, I still maintain that if he was presented with such a scenario as the only way he could interact with her outside of the club, he would either accept those parameters and give up on the whole romantic thing, or he would reject those parameters and have to deal with the fact that the only place he would see her was at the club.
Evolutionary theory would seem to strongly suggest that the presence of a mate is a strong way to dissuade romantic pursuit from other people.
Reality at February 4, 2011 11:26 AM
I decided to find a reference for the type of thing I am getting at. Here is a paper by Dr. Buss with regard to mate guarding behavior in humans:
http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/group/bussLAB/pdffiles/Human%20Mate%20Guarding.pdf
Reality at February 4, 2011 11:38 AM
@worthit, I think you're mixing part of my little story up with the LW's. I had the fella who talked about me to his buddies in the outdoors club, saying he was in limbo with me.
I dunno. Maybe it's because I'm always talking about Canadian men, but I've consistenly found that telling a guy "there's someone in my life," just really works and has way fewer risks. No beserk reactions and no upping the ante and seeing me as a "challenge."
And even if I'm single, I've almost always got someone on the horizon, so that phrase covers it.
This last fella isn't the first one to take a clear no as a call to arms--well, in this case, a call to making up stories--whereas every man I've turned down with using the "someone in my life" phrase has always backed off.
I know the logistics of telling a lie can create problems, which is why I use that specific phrase: "someone in my life" might mean there's someone I'm just interested in. And I find the older I get, the more distance there seems to be between my different social circles, so it's a lie that rarely has consequences elsewhere.
I'm not totally PO'd about this last situation--I think the guy is someone who just needs and wants to torture himself, but I'm not thrilled about his implying that there was more going on. It's a bit too territorial for me--like he's jealously staking a claim where he has none. My guess is that he did it to keep any competition (in the group) at bay. God, I feel silly saying that at my age!
ie at February 4, 2011 12:26 PM
@worthit, I think you're mixing part of my little story up with the LW's. I had the fella who talked about me to his buddies in the outdoors club, saying he was in limbo with me.
I dunno. Maybe it's because I'm always talking about Canadian men, but I've consistenly found that telling a guy "there's someone in my life," just really works and has way fewer risks. No beserk reactions and no upping the ante and seeing me as a "challenge."
And even if I'm single, I've almost always got someone on the horizon, so that phrase covers it.
This last fella isn't the first one to take a clear no as a call to arms--well, in this case, a call to making up stories--whereas every man I've turned down with using the "someone in my life" phrase has always backed off.
I know the logistics of telling a lie can create problems, which is why I use that specific phrase: "someone in my life" might mean there's someone I'm just interested in. And I find the older I get, the more distance there seems to be between my different social circles, so it's a lie that rarely has consequences elsewhere.
I'm not totally PO'd about this last situation--I think the guy is someone who just needs and wants to torture himself, but I'm not thrilled about his implying that there was more going on. It's a bit too territorial for me--like he's jealously staking a claim where he has none. My guess is that he did it to keep any competition (in the group) at bay. God, I feel silly saying that at my age!
ie at February 4, 2011 12:27 PM
@Shannon "Cmon. He's EIGHTY. I think it's more likely that she figured he's old, lonely, and harmless, and that it wouldn't hurt to have a cup of coffee with him."
Did you read the chronology of events? He FIRST 'confessed his passion for her', then asked for the date:
"Last year, an 80ish married man, a member of my literary club, called me, confessed his passion for me, and begged me to have a romantic dinner with him"
Lobster at February 4, 2011 2:41 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/02/extremely-old-s.html#comment-1836837">comment from RealityAmy, Based upon what you quoted I'm not sure why a "total shutdown" is necessary when one can instead alter what the least costly option happens to be. Based upon error management theory, wouldn't it hold that if someone altered the costs in a given scenario that the errors in judgment someone makes would be similarly altered? If that is the case, then wouldn't bringing along significant others change the costs involved in his pursuit?
You don't say no by saying yes in any form. You especially don't after a guy is rude enough to spew as this guy did.
Amy Alkon at February 4, 2011 2:43 PM
"But this guy looks old by virtue of being old, and there's not much he can do about it"
Boo hoo. I'd say "we all have to get old someday", but even that's not quite true; many don't make it that far. Getting old is a privilege. The luckiest amongst us will get old and wrinkly.
Lobster at February 4, 2011 2:46 PM
Can we give the LW some benefit of the doubt re: the coffee?
She may have felt ambushed when she was asked, as in she didn't see the situation coming at all. It's times like that that leave me gasping for air and horribly tongue-tied.
And who cares what order he said or asked anything? If I were in her shoes, I'd be frantically trying to unplug myself from the situation and scanning the horizon for the nearest exit sign. In other words, I'd be in semi-panic mode.
Sending out mixed signals to get attention from a creepy octogenarian? Oh please.
ie at February 4, 2011 3:25 PM
Can we give the LW some benefit of the doubt re: the coffee?
She may have felt ambushed when she was asked, as in she didn't see the situation coming at all. It's times like that that leave me gasping for air and horribly tongue-tied.
And who cares what order he said or asked anything? If I were in her shoes, I'd be frantically trying to unplug myself from the situation and scanning the horizon for the nearest exit sign. In other words, I'd be in semi-panic mode.
Sending out mixed signals to get attention from a creepy octogenarian? Oh please.
ie at February 4, 2011 3:25 PM
"Can we give the LW some benefit of the doubt re: the coffee? "
Yeah. It was still a mistake, but an honest one. BTW, "confessing your passion" is something that guys only do in romance novels and movies. Real men simply do not do that; they would never live it down with their friends if they did. Any guy who does that is a narc or has a screw loose.
Dementia is possible in this case; there's been plenty of documented cases where it drove good people to act very inappropriately. However, it's also possible that the guy has always been this way. Narcs don't de-narc just because they get older; it's often the other way around.
Cousin Dave at February 4, 2011 6:25 PM
I doubt it's dementia - this sort of behaviour seems to be endemic in the arts world. I know a few people who've fallen for the "he's an artist, that excuses his manipulative personality", and more that have been hit on repeatedly by older guys at poetry readings, art shows, galleries. Wide age differences, cheating on spouses, picking up life models, etc. I think it comes down to because they can - but nonetheless it isn't a great environment for women.
Ltw at February 4, 2011 11:04 PM
Especially those women who are trying to get their work recognised - it's not like a workplace where you can complain about sexual harassment, sometimes the difficulty of getting into one of these art scenes makes the mentor's 'casting couch' look like a good option.
Ltw at February 4, 2011 11:08 PM
Dear Most Serene and Inimitable Advice Goddess, Queen of the Pacific Sun, Master Unparalleled of the Written Word and Elegantly Turned Phrase :
Hey. Jack Lyons here.
I wrote you many, many months ago to compliment you on your advice column, and here I go again.
My Muuuch Better 1/2 and I no longer receive the Pac. Sun in the mail, so I don't see your brilliant works that often any more.
Well, I'm tickled that I happened upon the Jan.28 issue. You had me laughing aloud at your reply to the fellow who is being played for a major fool by his money hungry wife.
Superb writing, AG !
Thanks for the light and laughter you bring into my life and no doubt numerous other readers.
jack lyons, yes, of course. MMMEEE. jack lyons at February 4, 2011 11:53 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/02/extremely-old-s.html#comment-1837020">comment from jack lyons, yes, of course. MMMEEE. jack lyonsJack...how sweet! I was just thinking about how I have to wake up at 6am tomorrow to write. What a nice way to go to sleep. Thank you!
Amy Alkon at February 5, 2011 12:02 AM
"he's an artist, that excuses his manipulative personality", and more that have been hit on repeatedly by older guys at poetry readings, art shows, galleries"
It's funny that you say this, Ltw, because I found that with my mom's illness (which started in late 2008), I've had a similar experience with physicians.
Out of about 12 or so doctors I had to deal with half were great--well, half of them were women so of course, no problem--2 were total pricks for no good reason, and 4 of them hit on me in the way you describe. I was honestly a bit shocked.
I really thought that behavioural template was found in the arts only, but I think the "genius has its privileges" attitude can be found in a lot of places.
Look at Julian Assange, for example. I've never seen a man so committed to living in hiding pose for so many portrait photos, all the while looking "deep," "profound," and "thoughtful!" I mean, he may have some interesting ideas, but he's still a megalomaniac by any standard.
Anyway...in the arts, it's usually the 20 somethings who fall for this. Most women older than that know better, which is why these ageing lotharios hit on the young ones.
ie at February 5, 2011 5:05 AM
Good point ie. Doctors often display that arrogance and self-entitlement. My father is one so I should know :) Julian Assange is a good example of that attitude.
Anyway...in the arts, it's usually the 20 somethings who fall for this.
True. Maybe I'm just bitter that they don't do the same for engineers...
Ltw at February 5, 2011 8:48 AM
Maybe I'm just bitter that they don't do the same for engineers...
Aw, c'mon...engineers are the rock stars of the physical world!
ie at February 5, 2011 9:08 AM
ie
I am not mixing your story up with anyone. Your story is similar to mine only because we both mention an outdoors club. My story is mine and obviously a different man. He did what he did to me over and over to many other women. Nobody called him on it. I did, I hear he is still doing it but not around me or to me. I cannot worry about if other women all him to be a creep to them.
As for the LW, I still say secrecy is a creep's best friend.
worthit at February 5, 2011 12:24 PM
"And who cares what order he said or asked anything?"
Yeah ie, why let little things like "facts" get in the way of an otherwise good argument?
Lobster at February 8, 2011 7:09 AM
"it's usually the 20 somethings who fall for this. Most women older than that know better, which is why these ageing lotharios hit on the young ones"
Something tells me Hugh Heffner doesn't go for +/- 20-year olds because they "don't know better" (nor they for him, for that matter). Might have at least *something* to do with, I don't know, their delightfully ripe and perfect bodies. That's what men are naturally attracted to, and men with status (e.g. doctors, Trump, Heffner) have better mate choice. Women also like confidence. You can snipe from the sidelines all you want, but this type of sniping doesn't bother men nor make much difference to our behavior. Sorry but we don't go "oh noes! some women will make snide comments! better not flirt with this young 'un!"
Lobster at February 8, 2011 7:15 AM
Worthit, I think the 'mix-up' was that you appeared to reference "limbo" in regard to the geezer story [sorry!] whereas it was in ie's story. Gramps did not mention being in limbo.
And Cousin Dave - I assume "narc" is a narcissist? Started chuckling, as my first thought was "your friendly neighborhood narco agent." I had just enough of a toehold in the 60's to have that point of reference ("narc" is a narcotics officer).
Coffee anyone? Have a great day!
Mr. Teflon at February 8, 2011 10:19 AM
You make me laugh, Lobster! Plenty of women past their 20s get hit on. Just ask a few.
ie at February 8, 2011 11:02 AM
"Plenty of women past their 20s get hit on. Just ask a few"
Sure, most men don't have high wealth/status, so reality sinks but, but it doesn't mean those men wouldn't *prefer* a younger 20-something version of the 30+ woman, or a 20-something woman rather. Just like most women would prefer a higher-status version of their boyfriends/husbands, but most of us operate within the bounds of reality. Where did I say older woman don't get hit on? The LW is 40-something and she got hit on by this old dude.
Lobster at February 8, 2011 11:10 AM
Hi Lobster:
You quoted Oprah a few posts ago, (without acknowledging it). It was something about how "growing old is a privilege." I'm guessing you're enjoying that privilege yourself right now.
Now, I have a work schedule that allows me to have afternoons off twice a week and so that's when I visit my mom at her nursing home. And, I usually watch Oprah with her and some of the other residents because that's what they do at 4 PM.
I'm just wondering if you're a retired guy who also watches a lot of Oprah.
ie at February 8, 2011 12:26 PM
Oprah? No, I didn't get that from Oprah, and seldom watch Oprah, actually I picked it up from one of the earlier episodes of Nip Tuck some years back, and I recall I made a point to keep it in mind as I got older so as not to feel too sorry for myself. Googling turns up 'author unknown' in most cases for the source of a similar quote, but it's hardly a quote, it's so short and simple and generic, it's more like just a viewpoint. Googling for the quote even in combination with the name 'Oprah' does not turn up any sources, but do reveal that tonnes of people have said the same thing. Anyway, I'm in my mid-30's, and wish I was able to retire, but nowhere near that yet :/ I do run my own business, which is why I get to post here at random times of the day, since I'm the boss.
Lobster at February 8, 2011 3:44 PM
Teflon, yeah, I thought of that right after I posted. "Narc" for narcissist is something I picked up from reading Shrink4Men.
Cousin Dave at February 9, 2011 6:31 PM
Thank you for this article. That’s all I can say. You most definitely have made this blog into something special. You clearly know what you are doing, you’ve covered so many bases.Thanks!
Beauty Salons at September 8, 2011 5:02 AM
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