You Make Loving Fund
My wife and I have been married four months after dating a year. She's 40; I'm 34. Before we married, we agreed (because of our values) that the man pays the daily living expenses (rent/mortgage, bills, taxes, groceries). She said I should never rely on her for money, but said she'd help me if I needed it. I'm buying us a home, and I'm overwhelmed by bills. She wants a $3,000 mattress and a high-end bedroom set, and I asked her to help pay for them. She said she would, but I'd have to pay her back. What? Aren't a husband and wife supposed to support each other? She works full time as a manager and banks her earnings or spends money on herself. Before we married, we could compromise. Now she cuts me down and wants everything her way. And she could ask me how my day was once in a while. When I mentioned that, she said I was acting like a girl. She's very beautiful -- a former model -- but I've always told her I love her for who she is, not her beauty. I still love her and don't want to end our marriage.
--Strapped
Here's a woman who always has your best interest at heart. In fact, she's willing to offer you several percentage points less than you'd get at Payday Loans.
Four months into wedded bills, uh, bliss, you're walking around muttering, "Aren't a husband and wife supposed to support each other?" Well, yes, unless they start their marriage by making other arrangements. Absurdly, you agreed to the family values financial plan -- the husband takes care of all the expenses. Typically, the husband does this because the wife is taking care of their home, their dogs, their ferrets, and their three overscheduled children. But, hey, at least your wife's got your back. Your back pocket, that is -- the one where you keep your wallet.
What spouses put into a marriage doesn't always work out to 50/50, but there should at least be the spirit of 50/50. If you saw that in any way from your wife, you might have hope for a loving marriage. What you have instead seems like a marriage made in pragmatism. Chances are, she saw age 40 on final approach and figured she'd better lock in a funding source (you were conveniently located). Chances are, you realized she was out of your league, but figured you could bribe her into marrying you. You perhaps assumed that marriage would inspire her to act wifelike; as in, like a partner not a prostitute with a decorating budget.
You claim you don't want to end your marriage. You're probably making a common error in rationality -- deciding to continue investing based on how much you've already invested instead of on what the future payoffs will be (or, in your case, payouts). You also claim to love your wife -- not for her stunning exterior, but for who she is on the inside (um, greedy, selfish, narcissistic, and snippy?). Come on. Surely what you love is preserving your ego -- telling yourself whatever it takes to avoid admitting, "Gee, was I ever gullible." Hey, whatever makes you happy, but it won't change who you're with -- a woman who sees you as her $chmoopie, her moneybunny, her blank checkiepoo. That aside, you can't help but admire the lady for being a go-getter (why wait for the divorce to take a guy for all he's worth?).
All I can say is, tell her you'll buy the mattress if she agrees to lie down on it anytime you ask. If she's going to act like a prostitute you can treat her like one...
Ltw at February 15, 2011 6:06 PM
A mistress would be cheaper and less stress for LW.
I'll bet LW's wife gets the house LW paid for when (not if) they divorce.
Snoopy at February 15, 2011 6:16 PM
Sounds like the divorce would be worth every penny.
MonicaP at February 15, 2011 6:21 PM
RUN! Run like the wind!
In a marriage of two working people each person should contribute the same percentage of their earnings to mortgage, food, utilities, and maintenance of the home. Most also include vehicle expense, insurance, vacation money in this amount as well. Some couples each have separate private accounts where they can do what they want with that money and one joint account for the bills.
THIS WOMAN WILL NEVER AGREE TO THIS. I don't care how much marriage counseling you get. It sounds like she has gotten by on her looks all her life and intends to continue.
worthit at February 15, 2011 7:17 PM
I didn't know guys still fell for this type of trash. Love the word "$chmoopie". And re: Ltw's post, ...what he said. To quote one of those old horror movies (whispered, scarily) "get oooooooout".
Bluejean Baby at February 15, 2011 7:17 PM
Poor, silly man, you've made a common mistake. You let her looks blind you to the fact that she's not a very nice person. Don't make another mistake by trying to make this work. It won't.
catspyjamas at February 15, 2011 8:06 PM
This is my take on the situation:
As a gorgeous model, LW's wife has probably spent her entire life dating and being supported by rich guys who see her beauty as a commodity and are using her for her looks while she uses them for their $$. They've probably all been wealthy enough that it wouldn't have occurred to either party to expect her to pay for anything, so she sees that as the norm. Now that she's getting older she can't land sugar daddies as easily so she settles for a normal guy, but still views relationships as transactional and applies this philosophy to marriage as well. In her mind, she probably thinks that she's doing her part just by showing up and looking hot--no affection, feigned interest, or household contributions necessary.
Meanwhile, LW is just so psyched to be dating a hot ex-model (because let's get real, that's all this is about) that he fails to ask the important questions, like "do i want to marry someone that treats me like a walking ATM?" I'm willing to bet that LW is also a "beta-male"-type who hasn't had a lot of relationship experience. Otherwise he would have a) dated girls like this before and recognized her for what she is b) been in enough healthy relationships to realize that this one is completely dysfunctional and c) NEVER have agreed to her absurd financial conditions.
So that all sucks, but he brought it on himself. The question now is whether it's worth it to him to essentially keep a high-end escort as a wife. Granted there are probably thousands of guys who would be thrilled to trade their 250 lb wives for LW's, but if that's not his cup of tea he's better off cutting his losses now while he's still young only mildly financially committed (no kids). And having a hot model ex-wife will probably give him SO much cred with the ladies.
Shannon at February 15, 2011 8:29 PM
Ignore these cynics! You guys should have a baby!!
seriously though, it sounds like she's already setting herself up for a settlement.
and remember what Orwell said..
at fifty, everyone has the face (s)he deserves.
jeff macey at February 15, 2011 8:35 PM
..at 50
jeff macey at February 15, 2011 8:41 PM
The bright side is he could potentially still have this marriage annulled. God help him if he has to deal with her in divorce court.
What a terrible shame.
AV Flox at February 15, 2011 11:06 PM
Even community property states (e.g. California) may let you escape the marriage if you file for separation within 6 months of marriage. It sounds like LW has very little time to escape without severe financial consequences!
Amit at February 15, 2011 11:25 PM
Luckily she's old enough that she probably can't have a baby, otherwise this guy would be really stuck.
NicoleK at February 16, 2011 12:14 AM
I wouldn't be too sure NicoleK - 40 isn't that old for pregnancy these days.
Ltw at February 16, 2011 2:47 AM
Look into annulment before she "forgets" her birth control pills.
Thag Jones at February 16, 2011 5:24 AM
NicoleK, you must know some pretty unhealthy 34 year olds - age-related infertility problems usually don't kick in for at least another few years after that, and often (as Ltw points out) longer. This isn't just a function of the modern habits of delayed childbearing; I'm sure almost all of us have either relatives or friends who were born to older moms.
CB at February 16, 2011 5:25 AM
I can't.... I mean, if she's making good money, where in God's name did they come up with that financial arrangement? And WHY? He's "drowning in bills" and she's willing to LOAN him the money to buy THEM the bed SHE wants?
I can't even wrap my head around it. My boyfriend and I have pooled money completely since we first moved in together (to be fair, by that time we'd been together over 2 years though).
Nikky at February 16, 2011 5:41 AM
Letter writer, buddy,
These values you have about a man paying living expenses comes from the idea of the woman sacrificing a career to raise your children, care for your home, support your career, etc. The woman in such a traditional marriage does these things for the benefit of the family and home.
I agree with you that it's a good idea that has been well tested and has worked well over centuries. However, there is a problem with your application of this idea.
I know that you love your wife and I wouldn't, not for a minute, try to minimize those feelings. But, you'd do well to look at the facts.
Your wife is not raising your children. She is not caring for your home full time, though it sounds like she has some grand decorating ideas. She has not sacrificed her career to further yours. Most importantly, she is not even recognizing or considering your feelings of being overwhelmed by financial strain. In fact, she has the nerve to offer to loan you money. Just think about that for a second. I know she's beautiful, but she is your wife and she is offering to alleviate your pain by loaning you money. Let me say that again, loan you money. Your wife, whom you support with all living expenses, has offered to loan you money to buy something for her. Okay, that bears repeating as well -- to buy something ... wait for it ... for her.
This woman isn't even pretending. Does she at least do you the service of claiming that the money she is socking away is for some fairy tale retirement that you both can share together? I thought so. If I'm wrong and she is making such claims, she is lying. She will be spending that money with some sport coat, but not before they both make you look like a complete fool for many years.
Read Nikky's comments directly above mine. It's a good example of what everyone in their right mind is thinking. Also, we are only going by your letter which puts the best face possible on your problem. Imagine what your friends are thinking. They probably see a lot more maltreatment first hand.
For God's sake, man. You MUST get rid of this woman. Most women have an evil streak. This one is pure, fucking, evil.
whistleDick at February 16, 2011 6:46 AM
LW, you have my deepest sympathies. My suggestion would be look into getting an annulment. NOW. Things will NOT get better. I'm so sorry.
Flynne at February 16, 2011 6:47 AM
Get a divorce, sir. I am sorry to inform you that you married a bitch.
You are only a paycheck to her. This will not get better with time.
Spartee at February 16, 2011 6:48 AM
CB, she's 40; he's 34, but I agree, she can still have a baby. Then, he's probably really screwed.
LW, DON'T buy a house right now! Not until this is sorted out and you feel more comfortable. The house will be joint property, and she'll probably keep it.
It's true that some women assume their looks are enough, and that they should be supported by a man, especially if they're from certain cultures or backgrounds; however, those "values" are far less common these days. You should never have agreed to foot all the main expenses, but, at any rate, she promised to help out when necessary. This may hinge on her definition of "when necessary" (to bail you out of jail?)
It's possible that she has just always been so spoiled and catered to by men that she hasn't fully considered what's fair here. It's also likely that in an effort to date an ex model, you inflated your financial situation, giving her the impression that her money wasn't necessary.
I'd have a frank discussion about the reality of your finances and see if she suddenly gets it. If so, she'll accept that she should at least pay for the furniture she wants. If she really loves you, she'll offer to pay for more.
But if she continues to deflect the issue and put you down, get out...NOW.
lovelysoul at February 16, 2011 6:57 AM
Poor fellow. Wifey definitely got her hooks in on this one.
My advice. She does not respect you. Doormats generally never get respect.
Reel in your spending. You are trying to buy her loyalty and affection. If she wants the bed, let her buy it. Tell her it simply is not high on your priorities.Make a budget for both long and short term purchases. Stick to it.
I'd seriously recommend seeing a lawyer that can protect you financially. I think you'll need it. And since her motivations seem very mercenary, she can have your cupboards/ pockets/accounts picked bare before you are aware of that you need to look out for your own interests.
Honestly, I see this marriage not lasting. Don't have children with this woman. Protect yourself and your future. Or you will pay and pay.
My sympathies. This case is definitely a "nice guys finish last" type of situation. Next time look past the pretty face. You were blind, but went willingly into this marriage simply because she was hot.
LauraGr at February 16, 2011 7:11 AM
If he inflated his income to win her, then he's not such a victim. It's the equivalent of the hot wife who gains 200 pds in the first year, then is upset her husband doesn't love her as much anymore.
I was married to a rich man, and although I always worked (because I liked working), it simply never occurred to me at first to contribute my paltry earnings to the whole pot. I didn't come home and say, "hey, I earned $35 in tips tonight...there ya go...now, you have a gazillion and 35 dollars! It seemed absurd and unnecessary. Later, I began working within his businesses and really earned my keep.
But if I was married to Donald Trump, I doubt I'd offer to pay the electric bill, even if I worked.
So, she's not necessarily a bad person, especially if he gave her the wrong impression about his finances, which I kinda suspect to be the case here.
lovelysoul at February 16, 2011 7:25 AM
I totally agree that he should end this ridiculous situation. HOWEVER, I also couldn't help thinking that according to him,
"Before we married, we agreed (because of our values) that the man pays the daily living expenses (rent/mortgage, bills, taxes, groceries)."
Doesn't that mean, according to my understanding of traditional values, that he gets to say what they spend their money on? Didn't Lucy have to wheedle a few bucks out of Ricky every time she needed a new hat? Maybe he should just strap on a pair and say, "Honey, as you'll recall, we agreed that we were founding this marriage on 'traditional family values.' I refer you to the Promisekeepers site here which says that the wife shall submit to her husband in every way. So, sorry, but we're sleeping on the futon because I, your lord and master, say so."
Not like I think it would work, but it could be sort of amusing.
Anathema at February 16, 2011 7:55 AM
He also says she told him he "should never rely on her for money, but said she'd help me if I needed it." That's an odd conversation. Basically, he said, I'll entirely support you, and she accepted, with the caveat that if he ever couldn't fulfill these duties, she might pitch in.
This sounds more like a transaction than a marriage. And, contrary to popular belief, sometimes those work out, as long as everybody is getting what they want and expected out of the deal, but you can't change the game after the "I do"s.
If you bribe a beauty to marry you for financial security, you must accept that it isn't entirely about love.
lovelysoul at February 16, 2011 8:08 AM
Oops, sorry, I mixed up the LW's age with his wife's. But wow, that just makes things even worse. It's crystal clear that this woman is using the LW, and she's not even bothering to hide it. As others have said, the reason it's "traditional" for a man to take care of his wife's expenses is because she is presumed to be making other sacrifices and contributions to the household. This woman doesn't appear to be contributing anything other than her status as an ex-model, a claim that is going to get sadder by the year if it's the only thing even remotely interesting about her.
Run away, LW, as soon as possible.
CB at February 16, 2011 8:24 AM
I have to echo whistledick. I don't have a terribly traditional marriage; we both have worked, more hours at some times and less at others, and we both consider all of our money to be community property. There have been times when he outearned me; there were about 18 blissful months when I dramatically outearned him. All that money was OURS.
That said, when he's making more money than me, working far more hours than me, and is the one hauling his butt to an office every day, I do more housework than he does -- the house doesn't shine, necessarily, but there are clean dishes and clean underwear and food in the fridge. I run the errands. I do careful shopping, particularly of used stuff, to maximize our money. I cook, so we don't spend money on convenience food (most of which I find revolting anyway.)
OTOH,when I have been on a seriously tight deadline for a book, he has put in long hours running statistics for me, and inserting them into manuscripts.
We're partners. We're in this together. We always have each other's backs. Anything less ain't a marriage.
Dana Carpender at February 16, 2011 9:40 AM
First, sit down and talk. Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by stupidity. I assume she hasn't been married before to someone of normal means.
If she doesn't see the light, then run.
I have always out-earned my wife, but it's hard to put a value on leaving your family, friends, country, culture and language behind. I am sure I'm still ahead in this deal.
MarkD at February 16, 2011 9:56 AM
I'm a hardliner on most things, and this is no exception.
I'm reminded of the great white fleet, the naval expedition that was sent around the world in 1907 by Theodore Roosevelt.
The story goes that the fleet was built and the President wanted to send it around the world as a sort of announcement that, "We're here" on the world stage.
Well congress wasn't to happy about his plan, so they voted to little money into the budget to fund the trip.
And so the president said, "Ok, we don't have the money for that, so we'll just send it half way around the world, and congress can decide when to vote for enough money to bring it back."
Suffice it to say, the fleet made the complete trip.
-------------------
As I would apply this story, the man has a choice, he can:
A. Knuckle under to the selfish bitch.
B. Divorce/Anull and cut his losses.
C. Try to talk her into being reasonable.
D. Take my favored course of action, which is as follows:
"Dear, I love you, but I am not a servant, I am a husband, and our marriage is one of union, not service. Henceforth your wages will contribute to the maintanence of our household in equal portion to my own, as well as our shared eventual retirement. This is not a point of negotiation, this is what is going to happen. I am going to pay 50% of the phone, water, electric, and mortgage, (and any other relevant bills) and if you would like to continue to recieve the benefit of those things, you can contribute the remainder, otherwise, we are done. If you wish instead to contribute nothing to our household, you may quit your job and be a full time household and live the lifestyle that my wage alone may support."
Robert at February 16, 2011 11:44 AM
If he inflated his income to win her, then he's not such a victim.
He states that they were able to compromise on this issue before, suggesting that she was aware of the limits of his resources.
Also while her appearance likely has played a role in his willingness to marry her, and accede to her conditions, it's important to recognize that this behavior isn't indicative of attractive women. I know plenty of very pretty women who'd never think of behaving this way, and several unattractive women who do. It's really a character thing, and perhaps cultural.
For instance, I'd grown up in a relatively affluent community and many of the women I've known from there think the same way that the LW's wife does. It's probably the way that they were raised. They're not bad people, or gold diggers, they're just princesses. And there are plenty of men who'll go for this, especially if the woman is unusually attractive. You'll notice though that these women tend to end up with affluent 'beta' types, which suggests that they recognize that it's not an arrangement that more confident men will go for.
norm at February 16, 2011 12:01 PM
Well, he was savvy enough to write Amy--so hopefully all is not lost.
Razor at February 16, 2011 4:14 PM
sorry to hear, just so you know, this is how my family rolls, no contract or formal agreements but just each person coming to the table with common fairness of their own free will. My boyfriend of 10 years and i have one account. we both just try to be sensible, save on whatever we can and never give the other shit about what they spend the money on, its a 2 way street, if we overspend, we are broke etc. he works his ass off daily. i stay home and day in and day out take care of a 2 and 3 year old. the house gets clean, laundry folded and put away, i pack his lunch daily to save money and cook dinner. our life is ours, there is no me, mine, i, yours etc. its a joint effort in a forward direction, wherever that is, it will be together. i will gladly go get his oil changed, take care of whatever so we can have weekend time as a family. this is just one example of a partnership, good luck to you. its not perfect in any way, but the glue is deep love, respect, trust, and fairness. good luck to you. DONT HAVE A BABY WITH HER
pilar johnson at February 16, 2011 4:36 PM
She's narcissistic and has the upper-hand.
Bad combo.
ie at February 16, 2011 6:32 PM
This absolutely screams NPD. Divorce her ASAP. Seriously. Every hour you spend with her is a risk of financial and personal ruin. Go see a lawyer tomorrow at the latest. Move out as soon as you can. Make sure all your affairs are separated and that she doesn't know any of your account numbers, PINs, or passwords on anything.
And while you're at it, arrange to see a therapist to find out why you are attracted to malignantly narcissistic women.
Cousin Dave at February 16, 2011 9:11 PM
Something I've pondered about married couples ever since I was old enough to understand what marriage was: Why is the money that he makes "theirs," but the money that she makes is "hers"?
Patrick at February 17, 2011 1:48 AM
Ltw: I wouldn't be too sure NicoleK - 40 isn't that old for pregnancy these days.
It could be...but only if it would be her first pregnancy. (Which I doubt it is...even if she didn't decide to have the child.)
Patrick at February 17, 2011 1:51 AM
http://www.socalfertility.com/age-and-fertility.html
Here's a link on fertility rates, rates decline sharply around 40 even with in vitro. And the first pregnancy issue that Patrick brings up is important.
Patrick, who are you hanging out with where the wife doesn't pool her money into the family fund?
NicoleK at February 17, 2011 3:16 AM
If they don't want to do 50/50 another way to do it would be based on their salary... if he earns 150 and she earns 50, then he would pay 75% and she would pay 25%. I know some couples who do it that way. That way they both have a little money left over.
NicoleK at February 17, 2011 3:22 AM
NicoleK, fertility rates drop sharply from mid thirties onwards, I agree. But it's not impossible or even unlikely for a 40 year old if they tried hard enough.
Patrick, you have an even more cynical mind than me - I didn't even consider the possibility of previous pregnancies. Yes, as far as I understand it that changes the odds. As a confirmed bachelor/uncle I don't take any chances on that front either way. It would only take once to be a disaster - for me and for the poor child.
Ltw at February 17, 2011 3:53 AM
What IS unlikely is a surprise.
NicoleK at February 17, 2011 6:09 AM
I thought women were hardwired to search for mates to support them? I mean, if it's not ok for a woman to "let herself go" after marriage (presumably because men are hardwired to want skinny chicks)...then LW should STFU and be happy he's with a model.
me at February 17, 2011 6:46 AM
Why is the money that he makes "theirs," but the money that she makes is "hers"?
It think that this arises from a couple of factors. Firstly that women recognize that relationships entail an exchange of sex for resources. This understanding is then adapted to their idea of the masculine role in a relationship. For many women, this role is basically that of a father, and so they expect a financial arrangement like the one they'd had with their dad.
jj at February 17, 2011 7:21 AM
Eh, I'm not ready to tar and feather her just yet, just because I was married to a man who never said no and never voiced his own preference or opinion, choosing to seethe about how he never got his way instead.
It went a little something like this:
Me: Hey, let's go out for Thai tonight!
Him: Okay.
(in his head...grr...she's so demanding!!! I'd rather have Italian!!!)
Know what would have happened if he had said "I'd rather have Italian?" We would have had Italian.
Truly, I felt like I was being gaslighted for the duration of the relationship.
As a matter of fact, my Dad mentioned to me not too long ago that I was very frustrating to punish because they could never find my "currency." I'm that laid back and accomodating, have been since childhood.
MissFancy at February 17, 2011 7:30 AM
if it's not ok for a woman to "let herself go" after marriage (presumably because men are hardwired to want skinny chicks)...then LW should STFU and be happy he's with a model.
The obvious problem w/ an explicit looks for money exchange is that looks fade but marriages endure.
I may be glad to pay some cute 25 year old to bop around my place in her undies, but that's going to get old once she's not so cute any longer.
petri at February 17, 2011 9:16 AM
If you haven't signed the mortgage papers yet, don't. Do not get this woman pregnant. It was very short-sighted of you to make the initial agreement. This is not going to work out, it is too late! As hard as it may be; get out now! You file for the divorce, don't wait for her to do it.
nuzltr2 at February 17, 2011 9:54 AM
Silly man. Don't you know that he who holds the purse strings has all the control? But you're not exercising that control and that's why she's walking all over you. Like LauraGR says, you're trying to buy her loyalty and affection. Stop buying her stuff. Seriously. Only buy what you need and can absolutely afford. If she balks, then you'll see that she doesn't love you and only wants your money.
mf at February 17, 2011 11:14 AM
It's definitely still possible to make babies at 40, so LW, keep it wrapped.
"Now she cuts me down"
If a woman cuts you down, she ain't the mutually supportive life partner you're looking for, period. Now perhaps you've behaved in certain ways that have led her to lose respect for you, that is a natural tendency for all women to some degree, but if she is so overt and mean, she's just a horrible person ... you might be able to regain some of the respect by being more assertive but you won't be able to change that she's a horrible person.
"When I mentioned that, she said I was acting like a girl."
Again, bitchy demeaning insults to your manhood = "drop her".
"She's very beautiful -- a former model -- but I've always told her I love her for who she is, not her beauty"
Is it just me or is that line kinda ghey? Grovel grovel. Saying stuff like that is what makes her see you as a girl. Who *really* just wants to be liked only for their personalities? People also want to feel lusted after, like they're physically wanted and attractive (especially at 40). A real man doesn't act ashamed of his libidinous desires.
Also, it's dishonest. You clearly *do* like the fact that she's beautiful (any man would! puh-lease! Of course you like her looks, that's normal, not something to be ashamed of), that clearly is an important part of the package, and you've already pointed out she has a horrible personality.
"She wants a $3,000 mattress and a high-end bedroom set"
And if you're paying the bills, that's the part where you put your foot down. You seem to have lost your spine somewhere, which also contributes to her seeing you as a girl.
I've dated hot women who were bitches. Fortunately those didn't end in marriage, but I did fall in love in at least two cases, and I know what it's like to be there, in love with someone you know is a bitch. But she's hot, and you still love her. It was painful to go through when those relationships ended, but looking back I am so relieved they did.
My suggestion, end it, then go do a bit of soul-searching and manhood-searching to figure out how best to grow a spine and balls (I don't mean that offensively, I also had to go through such a stage in my adult life), then find someone who deserves you. It's not too late yet, I'm the same age, and just recently found and got married to someone wonderful.
Lobster at February 17, 2011 2:26 PM
"It think that this arises from a couple of factors. Firstly that women recognize that relationships entail an exchange of sex for resources"
jj, I agree, though I'd also add that it also partly stems from the biological fact that historically women spent a lot more time pregnant, and pregnancy (and in particular the time around childbirth) inherently renders you much less able to work or fend for yourself. This provides an immovable biological basis for the tendency to have men fulfill the role of provider, since this role cannot be swapped.
Lobster at February 17, 2011 2:34 PM
"Here's a link on fertility rates, rates decline sharply around 40 even with in vitro."
'Much lower chance' doesn't mean 'no chance' or 'negligible chance'. The degree to which viability of pregnancy is lowered past 40 tends to be very much over-blown and over-hyped, because people don't understand numbers. Here are some more figures to give you a more optimistic perspective:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertility#Female_fertility_after_30
"At age 40, 44% (of women) will get pregnant within one year, and 64% within four years"
That's for pregnancies ('of women trying to get pregnant') resulting in live births, and not using fertility drugs or in vitro ... in other words if they're bonking regularly or even trying for a baby, and there's nothing wrong with them, then the chances are well over 50% of her being pregnant within under two years. If she takes fertility drugs, it's much higher still.
Here is the math, which incidentally confirms the Wikipedia numbers against your linked article, which states a 5% fertility rate over 40. 5% sounds very low to the human mind, but remember that means a 1 in 20 chance - not that bad, and that's each month. Mathematically, the chances of getting pregnant over N months is:
1 - (1 - 0.05)^N
= 1 - (0.95 ^ N)
(0.95 = 95% chance of NOT getting pregnant any given month)
where N = 12 months, we get a very decent chance of 45.964% ... and the odds of Downs at that stage are "only" 1 in 100, and can be tested for in the womb very early on anyway.
Here are some stats:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005074.html
That's an awful lot of babies in the 40+ column, in absolute terms.
Some UK stats:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1281301/Number-women-40-giving-birth-trebles-past-decades.html
"Office for National Statistics figures yesterday revealed there were 26,976 babies born to mothers of 40 and over last year"
Lobster at February 17, 2011 3:04 PM
I know what it's like to be there, in love with someone you know is a bitch.
I've not only been there Lobster, I am there - and hoping like hell it will pass soon. Despite my comments, I have a lot of sympathy for the LW. Do as I say, not as I do.
'Much lower chance' doesn't mean 'no chance' or 'negligible chance'.
Very true. What it comes down to is:
1. If you really want kids, start early because there's a reasonable chance you'll miss out if you wait till 40.
2. If you really don't want kids, be careful because there's a reasonable chance of getting pregnant at 40.
How the numbers look all depends on which side you're on. Having a child is the ultimate binary decision - there's no compromise or middle ground here.
Ltw at February 17, 2011 6:15 PM
If she's still attractive, there's a good chance that she's still capable of having kids easily. The same traits that make her attractive also indicate her fertility.
melvin at February 17, 2011 8:47 PM
Tell her you can afford $1k for a mattress (or whatever amount), and tell her if she wants something better, she can spring for the difference.
NicoleK at February 18, 2011 4:32 AM
I'm curious about where the hell you find a mattress that costs $3000. We bought a top of the line, king size TempurPedic a couple of years ago and IIRC we paid $1800 for it.
Cousin Dave at February 18, 2011 2:11 PM
Is the fucking he's getting worth the fucking he's getting?
I generally don't drop F bombs but that little saying pretty much says it all for this guy.
LauraGr at February 18, 2011 2:26 PM
I'm curious about where the hell you find a mattress that costs $3000.
There are a couple of high end mattress companies that make mattresses that can run that high. They're hand tied, use the best materials etc.. My dad used to be a rep of one, which IIIRC is based in LA. They are very nice mattresses if you can appreciate them, otherwise they're just a status symbol.
jj at February 18, 2011 5:10 PM
It's only going to get worse. Princess culture is on blast right now and targeting extremely young girls. it sounds like this book hits the nail on the head:
http://bitchmagazine.org/article/pink-slip
The princess culture phenomenon entered my line of vision a few years back when the youngsters I worked with started referring to themselves as "princess" outside of dramatic play time. Like in passing they would tell me "I'm princess" and I'd say "No, you're Vivian. Princesses are pretend, you're real."
Then I started asking people about it and they said "Have you been to Disneyland lately?" I hadn't, but apparently there is a huge area dedicated to princess culture and merchandise.
When I was young, my favorite attraction at D-land was space mountain. I played with dolls as a kid, but it was never part of my identity. I would have never claimed to be the thing or character I was playing with, outside of the imaginary world of play.
Gspotted at February 19, 2011 9:22 AM
I know several women who got pregnant after 40 without IVF (or even trying all that hard). I think like every facet of aging, your results may vary. There's an average age and rate at which fertility declines, and then there are all the individuals who make up that average.
Anyway, hope the LW is using birth control.
Gail at February 19, 2011 2:00 PM
re: Princesses
I think that Peggy Orenstein's analysis is too clever by half. The phenomenon of little girls dressing up a princesses is not new, and not the invention of evil male marketers seeking to enforce the Patriarchal Hegemon. Little girls have dressed up as princesses for as long as there have been princesses. What's changed is that Princess has become an identity that is now being promoted by their parents, and especially mothers. It's a role that reflects the parent's status ambitions, projected onto the child. Because if your daughter is a princess, that makes you the Queen. You'll notice that Princess culture is almost exclusively the province of the upper middle class.
Also it's a bit rich for someone who's named their child 'Daisy Tomoko' to be scolding the rest of us for our narcissism.
Mel at February 20, 2011 7:10 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/02/you-make-loving.html#comment-1847689">comment from MelIt's a role that reflects the parent's status ambitions, projected onto the child. Because if your daughter is a princess, that makes you the Queen.
Sorry, I think this is a bit of a stretch. I don't think the parents think they're royalty; I think they just think the princess outfits are cute. And P.S. Girls dressed up as princesses when I was growing up and the difference now is that the outfits cost money and earn profits for big companies.
Amy Alkon at February 20, 2011 8:19 AM
Interesting comments about the princess culture. My dad banned that as a pet name. No daughter of his would ever be called a princess - he felt it would too easily lead to a spoiled brat. I've seen plenty of little girls that weren't but he wasn't taking any chances.
N at February 20, 2011 9:02 AM
N, same in my house growing up. My dad would call me "princess" from time to time, but it was always meant as an insult.
jen at February 20, 2011 9:46 AM
This took at least three days...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-MtAA5uso8
...an indoctrination to remember. I love how at certain parts it seems like a horror story.
Gspotted at February 20, 2011 12:42 PM
All I can say to the LW is:
Put the tip of your steel-toed boot in the crack of her ass and kick her to the curb.
It'll be cheaper in the long run, as divorcing her after 6 months is much easier than after 6 years. And her behaviour isn't going to get better. So swallow your pride and get it done.
I R A Darth Aggie at February 21, 2011 8:13 AM
See?
People say I am too cynical in my commentary.
See what happened to this LW?
Jeez, he would have been better off with backpage.com cuties, until he met a nice girl. At age 34, and with money (I am assuming), this guy could have done a lot better. Sheesh, I could do better, and I am an antique.
LW: Dump the ho-bitch, do some backpage cuties, or go to Rio, and have a good time. Burn cigarette holes in all her clothes before going to Brazil.
BOTU at February 21, 2011 10:25 PM
If he thinks that things are bad now, wait until her appearance starts to change, and she starts to show her age. It's one thing for an average woman to loose her looks, they tend to be less dependent on them. But for a woman who has relied on their appearance, and is defined by it, the change can be very traumatic.
margo at February 22, 2011 12:30 PM
LW bagged himself "a former model". Probably a long-time schlubby loser who wanted arm candy to show the world, see?? see?? Lookit what I got!!!" Probably rejected hordes of 'ordinary' women along the way. Well, he got his hottt wife without even noticing along the way what a jerk she is as a person, and now he woke up and is floundering around trying to make it all right.
Good luck with that. LW is screwed, and he did it all by himself because he was too desperate to bag a hottie to show off. No, LW, things are going to go from bad to worse. Hope you enjoy your final days with your hot piece, be sure to show her off to your friends before she takes half of whatever you have. Start thinking up a good reason for the divorce.
anonymous at February 23, 2011 5:06 AM
I agree- LW should not have children with this woman!!!
My brother had a knack for picking beautiful self serving women...it took a heart attack for him to get out from under the last one who had him by the balls... though they were divorced, she used the kids against him whenever she wanted anything-
She would with hold his getting to see the kids whenever the mood struck and unfortunately, he would not fight for his rights as father...She'd had him labeled a deadbeat dad who had abandoned her though she was the one who left to get supported by the state. Sometimes abused woman's rights are abused by women with no checks and balances.
Though he sometimes had no money for his own rent and heat, working two jobs as sous chef in a seasonal town, dependent on tourism in the summer, he paid for almost everything for her and the kids while she played the helpless welfare mom- never having enough money to contribute taking care of the bills...except she always had the latest fashions, make-up, hairstyles and had breast implant surgery right before he passed.... He was never gonna be free from her endless financial/emotional manipulations, even once the kids had grown up. But, sadly, he didn't get to watch that happen.
Msmogaree at February 23, 2011 6:26 PM
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