Amy, I respect that its your blog and your call, but as a longtime reader, I just want to be honest and say that I find the columns where you give advice to a readers problem much more entertaining than the ones where they just try to pick a theoretical fight with you.

Maybe this kind of stuff could stay on the blog? I look forward to the column all week and I don't enjoy it as much when it's not a problem/advice column. I don't know if other people feel the same way.

On a positive note, I really enjoy your blog and columns even though I disagree often. Thanks for keeping it up.

HA! This is all so true! Shoes over naked men any day.

Anon, I'm a regular reader also and I really enjoyed today's column. It's not advice for a specific problem, but it is advice on how to understand the differences between men and women on this particular issue.

When I've seen male strippers, they had limp dicks. How is THAT a turn on?

Also, I've seen guys wearing plastic boobs and vaginas. This was during Mardi Gras, though.

What is with the stereotype of women being obsessed with shoes and purses? I don't know anyone like that. I mean its nice to get a new one now and then, but I don't know anyone who spends that much time thinking about these things.

Shoes? Did someone say "shoes"?!

Looks like somebody has to admit she's wrong!

There, I run rings 'round you logically!

Nothing to say about this really, but an old friend of mine went to a male strip show with her mom (and I think her grandma). One of the strippers removed my friend's glasses, stuffed them down his jock strap, and put them back on her!

I kept wondering if she wanted to spray her glasses down with Lysol.

I never saw the attraction of strip clubs, period. I could never get past the fact that I would be leaving, alone, frustrated and with less money than I started with.

Almost any other place would give you better odds.

Amy has it pegged. And on a side note, it always irritates me when someone makes a comment like the Lysol one. As a stripper and escort who is always meticulous about hygiene—my penis is probably much cleaner than your hands. But then again, that's one of the reasons why I see lots of married clients—because the penis is dirty and something you'd never actually stick in your mouth. So maybe I should br grateful.

Yanni, dude, I was just kidding, man!

But the whole glasses thing was in keeping with the blush-and-giggle theme Miss Alkon was getting at.

Culturally speaking, though, men are sexist pigs going to a strip club while women are just having a girls night out. On television, when there are male strippers, you see them strip. On the rarer occasions there are female strippers, they're just background scenery.

I guess I don't fit the female mold because I'm visual. I can definately get turned on just looking at a naked man (if he's hot!) and certainly prefer it over shoe shopping.

And what Nicole said is also true - male strippers aren't hard, which is very different from female strippers. A guy can at least pretend the stripper is interested in him, whereas we can't. That's just not as stimulating as seeing a naked man with an erection.

One thing I wonder about: Is it considered bad form for a guy to get a hard on at a strip club? I've been to a few, and it seems to me that the guys don't usually get aroused, at least around their buddies. It's as much a male bonding thing for them as for women - drinks and jokes. Now, maybe if they go alone they can sit there and rub themselves. I just don't know. Guys?

When it comes to sex, women never develop. End of story, although lovelysoul may be an exception. Also, from ages 45-50 women get horny, though still lack the risk-taking approach of men.

Lovelysoul, my husband isn't a regular, but he goes to the occasional bachelor party or "out of town let's do something fun" at a strip club. He says he never gets hard, but he thinks it's out of embarassment. He admits to being aroused, he just keeps in in check somehow. I'm very interested in seeing what other guys have to say about your question though. Why would you go - given that you're there to be aroused - if you don't get aroused?

Amy hits the nail on the head in terms of why *I* have gone to strip clubs. It's all for fun, girl bonding, have a good time. I find it humorous, not titilating.

"He says he never gets hard, but he thinks it's out of embarassment. He admits to being aroused, he just keeps in in check somehow."

Honey, he's lying and trying to spare your feelings (or just make himself look better). And all my Facebook friends are whores (women AND men—the figurative kind, not the literal). The women post far more dirty pics than the men do—but they are ALWAYS the larger-than-life type of the professional cheesecake soccer, pro-athlete stud ilk. The men post hot pics of the ruggedly handsome, good-looking next door type.

"Why would you go - given that you're there to be aroused - if you don't get aroused?"

Exactly what I wonder too. I remember being at a party once where guys put some porn on TV, but none of them were getting visibly aroused by it, and I thought that when I watch porn, it's to fantasize and masturbate. I wouldn't put it on just for background visuals. To me, that seemed more frustrating than fun.

My guess is that guys do get aroused in those settings, but it's not considered cool to have it "show", at least when they're with other guys...or maybe even alone.

And I'm not sure I'm so unusual. I think women are more visual and sexual than we're given credit for, but our sexuality is very different from men's.

Like you, I'd go to a strip club mostly to bond with my girlfriends, but that's because the setting isn't as conducive to female arousal. Many of the strippers are gay anyway, so whereas I can appreciate their beauty, I can't really see them as sexual prospects. Plus, they aren't aroused, which is part of the visual that's most titillating for females.

Let's face it, we don't get as much to look at and be stimulated by as men do. Almost everywhere you go, there are women in skimpy tops and short skirts, showing off their sexy assets, but we don't quite have the visual equivalent.

So, if I go to a mall, I may be more distracted by the shoes than the men because there's just not as much to draw my attention visually. Beneath his clothes, I can't usually see a guy's pecs or his package, so I'll be more interested in shoes at the moment, but it doesn't mean I wouldn't like to look at a naked male body...especially one that's hot and ready specifically for ME. I think that's more the turn on for women than seeing naked men in general.

Amy, as it happens, I've done years of research on this, spent a lot of time in strip clubs, male and female, talking to patrons, strippers, bartenders, managers, sex workers of various kinds. Produced two documentaries and one article on the whole shebang. It's a complicated subject, not as simple as "I just like to see people naked" (though occasionally it is that). In the case of bachelor parties, a lot of the "bonding" is through humiliation -- a bizarre practice that I don't claim to understand but that dozens of men told me they do. Anyway, too much to write here. Differences between the sexes a perennially fascinating anthropological subject.

I took my ex-mother in law to see the Chippendales a few times. My best friend too. Most fun I had was watching the crowd, and waving dollar bills over other peoples heads to get the dancers to pay attention to them. I'd spot someone in the crowd acting particularly shy, scoot up behind them and hold a five over them to make sure they got a lot of attention. Did it embarress them? Yep. It also gave them a thrill that they didn't have the guts to go for on their own, and made for a story they could tell friends for weeks afterwards.

...Now, maybe if they go alone they can sit there and rub themselves. I just don't know. Guys?

I don't think that you can do that in most strip club - play with yourself.

There are two reasons that I don't frequent strip clubs..

a. most strippers are skanky.
b. if they're not skanky, I want to have sex with them, but I can't because as soon as I get on that stage, some gorilla is going to grab me and throw me out of the place.
c. strip clubs are full of other men. If it were just me and a room full of hot strippers, that would be great. But instead it's like 30 men for every stripper, and 1,000,030 for ever hot stripper. Getting aroused by some woman that I can't have in a crowd of horny strangers is not my cup of tea.

'but he goes to the occasional bachelor party or "out of town let's do something fun" at a strip club. He says he never gets hard, but he thinks it's out of embarassment. He admits to being aroused, he just keeps in in check somehow'

If I think about my own experiences at strip clubs, what he says sounds more or less accurate, I think, except he probably has gotten hard and isn't admitting it. You can get aroused and 'keep it in check' or 'save the erection for later', some years of practice doing that helps, though also being in public, especially with buddies, also helps automatically suppress boners. Guys definitely get hard at strip clubs often still though, they're mostly just good at hiding it, a lot of the time nobody will know. But anyway, seems to me there's an odd tension between two different goals if men go to a strip club: Socializing together, and getting aroused. You want to get aroused, and do, but the idea of getting aroused 'together with your male friends' seems, I don't know, ew. Being out with male friends in any case is a turn off, so what happens is more like, you are generally just getting hornier 'in the background', and then it comes to the foreground later when the time is right. Getting aroused 'together with male friends' sounds a bit 'gay' somehow (no offense intended), also there are kind of 'unwritten rules' that a man is 'not supposed to' get aroused in those situations, because it's a demonstration of 'alpha' status to play it cool. I think the evolutionary logic goes that an alpha male has choice of mate whenever he wants and also is supposed to have the women hankering after him, not the other way round, so he may act uninterested in an attractive female - it demonstrates supposedly that he holds the bargaining chips, so to speak. If you think of a status hierarchy, a man acting on getting horny over a stripper is kind of in a 'lower' position to the stripper, since she has what he wants, so she holds the bargaining chips. Basically what it boils down to is that you can enjoy the show but must not look desperate, you should maintain a 'oh it's fun but I can take it or leave it' facade. You might chat casually with your buddies but you're still looking out of the corner of one eye. I think this may also be why when female strippers are depicted in movies it doesn't seem odd that they're often depicted as just being in the background, and the men acting cool. Not sure if this is really making sense, but it's how I see it, more or less, and it makes sense according to my own observations of both myself and others. I've been quite seldom to strip clubs though. A few times with friends, and maybe a few times on my own (and now that I think about it, usually when traveling).

'but he goes to the occasional bachelor party or "out of town let's do something fun" at a strip club. He says he never gets hard, but he thinks it's out of embarassment. He admits to being aroused, he just keeps in in check somehow'

I go reasonably to strip clubs reasonably often (finances permitting), usually alone but occasionally with a couple of friends. I don't get hard just looking, although that probably has more to do with desensitisation than anything else. During lap dances, though, yes (at least in the jurisdictions where physical contact is allowed). The girls don't mind, and in a lot of cases actively encourage it - at least they know you're enjoying it (and therefore there is a good chance you'll pay for another dance). It probably helps a bit that I'm reasonably good looking and shower, shave, floss, etc before going, unlike a lot of guys, and I'm known for being free with my money and well-behaved, so I get a few concessions over your average punter.

I've chatted to a lot of the girls and become quite good friends with a couple. You'd be surprised at how much of the motivation for their regulars is company and (simulated) affection. Unless you're totally deluded, and naturally some are (the ones who bring presents and badger the girls to meet them outside the club), of course you know it's not real. But it's still a fun hobby. It probably helps that I'm not embarrassed about it, and also realistic about what's going on. Maybe Lisa S can shed some more light on this.

The bachelor night or after-work crowds are a different story though. On the few times I've been out with those I've been surprised at just how obvious it is that I'm comfortable in that environment compared to their nervous bravado.

Lobster, what you say makes sense too, and matches my observations.

On the LW's topic, I can't see many women going for the reasons I do. And the comparative numbers don't support his point.

I'm definitely in the camp that believes most women go to these things to laugh and be collectively embarrassed. I hired a stripper for a friend's shower just to make her freak out. Everyone still laughs about it, but no one was turned on or gushing about the hotness of the stripper (who actually was very handsome).

It may also be a way of leveling the playing field. "If you can do it, so can we!"

Women just have different hot buttons. Recently we were watching a movie where a square-jawed, muscle-bound lifeguard in a Speedo made a slow-mo exit from a swimming pool. My guy made some comment about how it must be turning me on, and I was like, seriously, not at all. I'd rather see Indiana Jones in a tweed suit with glasses, or his white tux, or his leather jacket and fedora--all items that indicate his role in life.

The naked male form is beautiful, but it's not what gets me started.

What is with the stereotype of women being obsessed with shoes and purses?

NikkiK, I used to say the same thing. Something took over when I turned 30 (and started making the kind of money that would pay for designer items). I can't explain it, but I've thought of shoes like 10 times already today.

If you think of a status hierarchy, a man acting on getting horny over a stripper is kind of in a 'lower' position to the stripper, since she has what he wants, so she holds the bargaining chips.

I was a dancer in my twenties, and I absolutely felt like the empowered one.

But the strippers are entirely different. As you say, Ltw, part of the allure for men is this fantasy that the stripper is really into you and is showing real affection/attraction, even though a smart guy knows, intellectually, that it's not real.

In my experience, male stippers don't act very interested in the women other then getting tips. They're more into themselves and how impossibly hot their bodies are, which is frankly funny to most women, not sexy. Picture Fabio. That's what we get. It's more kitchy than serious.

And, as Lobster notes, there's something off about the balance of power when males are trying that hard for female attention. A female stripper can be viewed as a hardworking, heart-of-gold, damzel in distress type, which fits in with most guy's fantasies, but a male stripper - preening and prancing around like a peacock in order to have women stuff money in his crotch - just seems kind of pathetic to us, though funny at the same time.

Maybe if the guys waved the money around for the women to grab, and acted totally disinterested in us, there'd be a heightened sexual response. lol

You get it LS. As usual.

I'm not aware of any place you could go round here to find male strippers that do actual, private lap dances, although I'm sure you could hire them privately if you wanted. The guy acts are all podium/stage-only shows. Not at all the same thing. Question - would it make any difference to you if it was some hot guy sitting on your lap rather than prancing about on stage?

Maybe if the guys waved the money around for the women to grab, and acted totally disinterested in us, there'd be a heightened sexual response. lol

Love it! The only change would be who is on the seats and who's on the stage!

Maybe if the guys waved the money around for the women to grab, and acted totally disinterested in us, there'd be a heightened sexual response. lol

Good observation, LS, that might get my motor running! lol!

Ltw and LS, I concur with pretty much everything you've both posted. Reminds me of the story I heard about the woman who went to see a Chippendales' show with her friends, and watched them all putting money in the guys' g-strings. She just sat there, then she looked up, whipped out her ATM card, swiped it down one of the guy's butt cracks, grabbed the bills, and left the bar!

o.O

even though a smart guy knows, intellectually, that it's not real.

Very, very occasionally it can be. I know that the closest dancer friend I made told me that virtually every dancer admitted to having a friend or two (for a given definition of 'friend') that they had met at work. They tend not to talk about it because the clubs will sack them for it, whether there's anything going on or not.

But it's rare. And let me tell you, it's hard to tell when it's real or when you just assume you're imagining it.

"Question - would it make any difference to you if it was some hot guy sitting on your lap rather than prancing about on stage?"

You know, probably not, at least for me. As I said, I can objectively appreciate their beauty and the hard work they've put into body building, but there's just something unmanly about it. We want men to care about their appearance, but not TOO much. If you start waxing, moussing, and being too vain, there's a bit of girlishness to it.

It's kind of the equivalent of the guys online who post shirtless muscle shots. That must work with some women, but for most of us, it's more of a turn off. We don't want you to want to be prettier than us. We prefer a guy who is rugged and sexy without really trying to be. Harrison Ford. George Clooney.

One of the sexiest experiences I had was with a male masseuse. Just him and me alone in a room. He wasn't that good looking - just an average guy - but it was very sensual. I could tell he was getting aroused, though he wasn't supposed to, which is probably what made it even sexier. Nothing happened, but I was excited by what could have happened for weeks afterwards.

It was a mostly rhetorical question LS. I like the massage story though :)

Never went to a strip club. Don't really want to. Getting aroused with no relief, or worse, a soggy set of pants because of some soulless external stimulation doesn't really sound like a deal to me, not at those prices. And I'm talking more self respect then dollars, though it's not cheap.

Since, if I went to a stripper, the SO would go ballistic, I'd just go all the way and hire an escort. Still soulless, but at least she's finishing me off in a more intimate fashion.

I wonder what percentage of the men go to strip clubs hoping to find an 'escort'. I think most of them go to find illusions.

I grew up taught that men's looks "didn't matter"; what was important were his personal qualities -- no, NOT the size of his bank balance!, but rather: is he kind? funny? smart? ethical? -- and, most of all, does he relate to you as an individual, not just "another piece of [hrrm, that term prolly won't print here]"?

This worked just fine for a lot of years. It netted me one "starter marriage" of five years and a second marriage of twelve years to a man who was also my business partner for nine of those years.

And then I was 40. When I started dating again, I found much to my own surprise that men's looks now DO matter(!) -- at least to me -- and that youth and fitness have more than a little to do with those looks. Which, of course, is exactly what men have been grunting about since our species first swung down outta the trees!

Amy, you're an evo psych afficionado like I am; have YOU ever heard/read anything in the field which incidates that it is usual (or even "normal") for women's preferences to change that radically as they age...?

Now in my early 50s, I am eleven years in on marriage #3 to a man who I first appreciated as "merely" beautiful...but who over the years has proven to be very literally brilliant, AND kind, AND funny, AND truly appreciative me as an individual. Contra the cougar/cub "sugar mama" sterotype, I was broke, unemployed, and in physical rehab for a horrendous injury when I met him, and have never since had to work a day for pay if I didn't want to for non-financial reasons.

The point being, if I hadn't been aroused by his looks alone via an online photograph, I never would have taken all the extra effort it required to meet him in person and start getting to know each other, and therefore would have missed out on the most ethical and hard-working man I have
ever known (with the exception of my male LDS relatives).

And btw, contra several well-publicized polls over the years, there ARE women out there who'd MUCH rather have simple sex in their own homes a few times a month than chocolate, designer shoes, Broadway tix, two weeks on the French Riviera, or fill-in-your-indulgence-HERE. I know this because I'm one of them!

"And then I was 40. When I started dating again, I found much to my own surprise that men's looks now DO matter(!) -- at least to me -- and that youth and fitness have more than a little to do with those looks. Which, of course, is exactly what men have been grunting about since our species first swung down outta the trees!"

Yes! I'm totally with you! Same thing happened to me, and I think Amy is right that we women tend to spend too many years being "benevolent" or trying to convince ourselves (and each other) that looks don't matter.

If I had a dollar for all the bad advice I'd received from other women in that regard, I'd be super rich today.

Yet, I think when you reach your 40s, you're at a place where you're much more comfortable with your sexuality, and less apologetic or embarrassed for just feeling horny. Then, you start to recognize that there are particular men, with particular physical traits, who make you feel that way and others who simply don't, despite being really nice guys...which is OK.

Men usually accept this reality in their teens and 20s, but women seem to take longer due to our social conditioning towards "love" over lust. I now believe you really can't have one without the other. You can marry your "best friend", but if you don't want to jump him on a regular basis, it will be a less fulfilling marriage for both of you than it could've been.

The OP sounds about ....14? He actually THINKS women swarm to see male strippers because naked guys turn them on?? LOL! I picture 'Gotcha' in some situation dropping his pants, thinking a girl is going to get turned on and jump on him. I think he will be sadly disappointed when she points and laughs, runs from the room, or suggests they go shoe shopping, lol. Sorry, OP, strutting around in a thong will bring goggling and laughing. Try it out on your mom, you'll see.

I've seen plenty of men enter strip bars with "lovin' lambs" and the like at bachelor parties. I got turned on at LaBares. The guy was hot, and touching me, and letting me touch him......as a general rule, though, I have higher standards than men for what I want to see naked. At least, from what I've seen at male vs female strip clubs, and the both-genders ones. Females strippers don't have to be all that, they just have to be naked.

How'd the wedding go LS? Congrats! (you were getting married recently, right? Did I make that up?)

Of course, outside a strip club most men would be delighted to see a svelte young thing take off her clothes. Whereas I don't know about the rest of you ladies, but if some overly-muscled man started taking off his clothes and coming at me, I'd look around for some mace.

The type of guys they have in strip clubs aren't really attractive to me. I like nerds.

"How'd the wedding go LS? Congrats! (you were getting married recently, right? Did I make that up?)"

Yes, thanks for remembering, M4. It went wonderfully! Beautiful sunset, great food, and both my kids were in the wedding (best man and maid of honor, which was really special). Followed by a honeymoon to New Orleans. We got back Monday.

I was actually urging Jeff to take me into one of the strip clubs on Bourbon St. They have a bunch there, but I don't think he thought that was appropriate honeymooning activity. lol. So, mostly, we just stuffed ourselves with awesome, rich food. I definately have to get back to my LC diet.

Just don't go to the one that says "World famous live sex show", its false advertising.

LW's an instigating dolt. Here in NYC, I can only think of ONE strip club for women, and it's not even a strip club every night - more like a few times a month thing, and the rest of the time the space is used as a theater or other performance hall. So yeah dude, there's obviously not much of a market for strip clubs for women.

As for women and visuals, I'm with NicoleK, except I like musicians. And they are not exactly known for their brawn. My hubby is hot and I like looking at him naked! But he's thin, straight, and doesn't shave his chest/legs/armpits/junk. He's not the kind of guys that dance at ladies' strip clubs.

I went to Hunkmania once for a bachelorette and had an awesome time! Once.

Yeah, I think we saw that one, Nicole...and also a naked girl swinging on a swing outside some bar. I'd never been to 'Nawlins, so I didn't realize Bourbon was quite so raunchy. But we had a great time!

Seems like most women are in agreement that part of the turn off (or lack of turn on) is the pretty boy nature of the dancers. That's what makes it more humorous than sexy.

Did anyone see "The Full Monty"? Now, that I could get into - just every day working guys stripping down and looking so sweetly mortified doing it. That's how you'd imagine your husband or boyfriend - or anyone you would actually sleep with - being.

I'd spot someone in the crowd acting particularly shy, scoot up behind them and hold a five over them to make sure they got a lot of attention.

Not to pick on kat, (and apologies for going off topic), but it's a common misperception on the part of outgoing people that shy people need and want to be saved by them.

Quite the opposite. If they wanted the attention, they'd ask for it themselves. I know you mean well, but please, just let introverts be.

I get wrapped up in myself sometimes, I'm sorry - congratulations LS! Glad your wedding went well and best wishes. Hope we never see a column here about you :)

And then I was 40. When I started dating again, I found much to my own surprise that men's looks now DO matter(!)

Do women really tell themselves these things?

Women always prefer good looking men. The only time there's much deviation from this is in whom they'll marry. Then the less attractive 'safe' guys come into play. But if you observe who they date and have sex with, it's obvious that they prefer good looking men. In actuality women are only a bit less biased towards appearance then men are.

Yep-the live sex show on bourbon needs to be sued for false advertising. I mean really, in this day and age, you'd think they would have been already! Then-BF and I gave a much better show out on the street. I love NOLA.

Spikeygrrl Says,

"have YOU ever heard/read anything in the field which incidates that it is usual (or even "normal") for women's preferences to change that radically as they age...?"

Just out of curiosity, did this change in preference happen to correspond to a change in taking hormonal birth control pills?

There is a known relationship between the types of physical features women find attractive depending upon whether or not they are on the pill.

"something you should probably do once and then you don't have to do it again." doesn't just apply to women going to see male strippers.

Just so you know ladies, in North America anyways it is illegal for male strippers to have an erection or to ejaculate. This is considered prostitution if it happens and dancers and the bar owner can be charged thusly.

Thanks, Steph. Didn't know that. I can see the not ejaculating part, but no erection? I mean, what if the poor guy can't help it? Wow. The things we regulate in this country.

And I don't imagine there's any similar restrictions for females. Hard nips are no doubt allowed.

Not to pick on kat, (and apologies for going off topic), but it's a common misperception on the part of outgoing people that shy people need and want to be saved by them.

Quite the opposite. If they wanted the attention, they'd ask for it themselves. I know you mean well, but please, just let introverts be.

Couple of things, everything before the "but" is usually bull, so yes, you intended to call me on this, so, ok, call me on it. It's cool, adults can do that.

I will clarify, just for grins. It was...15, 20 years ago? It's foggy, but hey. It was a Chippendales show, which, if any of you are familiar, are boring at best if you are not shitfaced, and I was the designated driver. I wasn't trying to "save" anyone. I was trying to get my friends pissed at me. In that playing, I'll get you for this, pissed off way. I imagine they did get me, we were pretty good at that.

There, don't we all feel better now?

to stay off topic, I didn't think Tredwell was picking on Kat. As in introvert myself, I was thinking the same thing when I read that so maybe the wording made it unclear.

Back on topic I love seeing naked men and it does excite me very much, but I agree with others that it has to be the right type of naked man. Hugh Jackman as wolverine? yes please! if there were men like that working at strip clubs I would definitely go more often.

And I don't imagine there's any similar restrictions for females. Hard nips are no doubt allowed.

Well, it would be hard to regulate that - they are walking round in their underwear, they could just be cold :)

@NicoleK: I'm with you: I don't get off on the bodybuilder types. My husband is 15 years my junior, my height within 2 inches (but I'm TALL), VERY slim-built, and while his active-duty military career keeps him excruciatingly fit, his muscles are not that icky bulgy sort; he's what they call "whipcord thin" or "slim like a blade." Also, now that I've allowed myself to have that choice, if hubby gets KIA one of these deployments, I will no longer settle for anything less than His Type, which is my AUTHENTIC physical turn-on: that whole AVERAGE-tall, fine-boned type, who in addition has dark hair and eyes, pale skin, and the same fine-featured construction in his face as he has in his body. Think a younger version of Hugo Weaving in Lord of the Rings and you've got it nailed. Hardly typical of what men seem to think that women find attractive ;-)

@reality: By the time I reached 40 -- and my change-of-eyes, if not change-of-heart -- I'd had my tubes tied for 10 years already. No need for birth control of any kind.

...and finally, @Amy: WOW!!! Thanks for responding! I guess a few years of posting intermittently intelligent comments here do actually pay off! But as far as "benevolence" is concerned, you're off base. I genuinely loved all those bright, witty, homely guys. In fact I considered THEY were doing ME a favor by deigning to go out with/have sex with/be in-relationship with a gal who's only about a 4 (on a good day!) on the infamous ten-point attractive-to-males scale. Also, as far a "preferring taller" goes: when I hit 5'10" at age 12 I figured out pretty quick that men shorter than me far outnumbered men taller than me, so I'd better start leaving that out of the calculus real quick. In fact, the most beautiful man I ever dated -- and lived with for a couple of years, mu husband's immediate predecessor -- was both 12 years my junior and claimed to be 5'7" but was lying through his teeth. What's a tall girl to do: slump and wear flats the rest of her life, or wear 5" platform stilettos with her cocktail dresses and be proud to be seen on the arm of an intelligent and attractive man who's secure enough not to care what "society" says about it? It's no accident that short business moguls, media stars, and trust-fund boys often gravitate to women far taller than they are; it's the male-to-male/dick-waving "Look what I got!" syndrome. I'm delighted to comply...as long as that's not all there is to it. Looks utterly aside, my ESSENTIAL attraction factor always was, and continues to be, raw intelligence. (Raw intelligence in a woman, OTOH, is "supposed to be" a turnoff, but somehow or other I've managed to never be without a man unless I wanted to be. Only took me 40 years to accept it and quit questioning it, lol!)

-- Spikeygrrl is: "too" tall, "too" smart, "too" mouthy, and still pinching herself as to how she managed to land such a cool man during that AWFUL time in physical rehab 4-days/week while still unemployed, adjusting to a newly-acquired lifelong disability, and generally pissed off at the entire world about it :-P

Sorry, a little late to this topic.

In my (little) experience, when a group of guys go to strip clubs it is more about embarrassing each other than anything.

A young lady I knew who had worked as stripper said most of the guys that came in alone where mainly lonely and the talking part and being their friend was got the money.

I used to live by a place that had men in one part of the club and women in the other. You could somewhat see both from the foyer. There was some clear differences. On the stage, women could touch the male dancers. On the other side, men were kept a long way from the female dancers. the other thing, the female dancers could do personnel or private dances while the male dancers could only do personnel. The personnel dances were on tiny stages where the customer sat at the foot of them. The private was really expensive - I never got one - but was told the dancers could touch you.

I think area may have affect on this. I just recently was brought to Portland, OR for a job interview. The "eatery" at the hotel did not impress. I couple of guys recommended the steak at a bar down the block. I went and I start hearing this hooting and hollaring... it was a strip club in the back. No indication from the outside. 2/3 of the people at the stage were women waving dollars for the female stripper. The next night I went to another place - same thing. Most the people didn't seem to care at all that it was stripping going on. And no, I didn't get the job.

Yes there should realize the reader to RSS my feed to RSS commentary, quite simply