I wonder if he was always like this. If it's a recent development, maybe there's some other underlying issue that they can resolve or that is temporary.

Here is what you say, "Dear, you are doing that again." Then go about your business and stop talking until he stops being an asshole.

Let him debate the wall if he must, but you don't have to participate. Exercise that option.

well, definitely he can change, if one asks me why I'm so sure about it? because i know you didn't marry a guy who used argue with you all the time, of course there was a time when he was all sweet to You and stuff, if he was once like that, then he can be like that again.

He might really be one of those guys who are frustrated about something and takes out their anger on someone else, that condition could be a bad one, if he's already taking it out on You, it would mean he would be taking You for granted and thinking You won't react back, this can easily be fixed by telling him, right to his face, that he needs to stop it.

If he changed into that soon after marriage, this could be a rather big problem, he could be treating women as objects, which is bad, if You think he's just treating You like an object, since now he owns You, You have to tell him that if he does not maintain You, then even this object will leave him, just show him, nothing more.

but one IMPORTANT thing, whenever You're trying to tell him things, always make sure to corner him, since You still Love him, and wont want to loose him, so whenever You talk, never too offensive, never too defensive, like being a Diplomat, so he ain't hurt either so he won't get more angry, and your message is conveyed as well.

GOOD LUCK!

My wife is a scientist. She has the credentials to prove it. The problem is that she thinks it is her scientific duty to offer an alternative hypothesis to everything I say. I counter this by not saying anything most of the time. She has no idea what I think about most things.

No need for all the tactics of dealing with someone in an attempt to modify their behavior to make them more tolerable to you. That's not natural. Just walk, like Amy said.

I think the ppl who wrote those suggestions are well-intentioned, but letting a partner "debate a wall," doesn't sound very respectful. Which in this case is valid. You probably shouldn't be with someone you can't respect.

Love the title, Amy. Great analysis!

"I go for counseling, but he refuses to..."

This is what's known in certain circles as "The Relationship That Will Never Work, So Divorce Your Husband Now As Opposed To Wasting More Of Your Time." Seriously. Leave him—now. And don't look back.

I have no idea how long you have been putting up with this but don't you think it is long enough? A narcissist is very resistant to change. They think everything they do is perfect. Was he like this before you married, if so were you just blinded by the idea of being in love?

Understand this, he is not going to change, he will not go to counseling, he has been chipping away at your self esteem and now you are writing to an advice columnist to ask what to do.

I think you know what to do, get ready for a divorce. Make sure you have your own good credit, make sure you have your own bank account, if you have children be sure you are able to support them because it is likely you will have a hard time getting child support. Develop a support group with your female friends because you are going to need them. Continue with your counselor and get yourself mentally ready for the split. There is no nastiness like a narcissist scorned. Besides he will think he is so perfect, all the fault is yours and all the things and money should be his.

The only person you can change here is you. It is time to change yourself into a self supporting independent woman.

Wow! Just...WOW!

A woman who shuts down her husband for any debate over childrearing is owed another year for her to 'get over it'.

This guy is kicked to the curb pretty darned fast.

I agree with the other posters. This is very disrespectful and I don't think he'll change. But from the sounds of it, it didn't sound like she would either.

Did she ask about the counselor twice? Did she suggest he talk to his friends about how he is, so he might get an objective opinion outside the bonds of marriage? Did she give him half the chance that a guy is expected to give a woman who is 'moody' or 'post partum'?

Why is she asking now? If he hasn't always been like this, then something has changed. A guy is expected to dig and dig and dig to 'fix things' (maybe by grouting the tub), but she should just know he's unchangable and cut her losses.

Somewhere there is another advice columnist responding to a letter that says, "My wife just says the dumbest shit all the time and it has been driving me up a wall for years."

Man, how did you ever get past dating to marriage?

This reminds me of a hilarious exchange I had with a friend about how, despite every single magazine telling you otherwise, you actually don't want your partner to "just be honest!" most of the time.

There's a difference between having an analytical personality and being a giant douchebag.

Also, @flydye - where did the thing about childrearing come from? I am baffled, if not also befuddled and bewildered.

I don't know what you call this behavior (contrarianism?), but I find it most common in people who pride themselves on being smart above all else. If you say the sky is blue, they say it's azure, or else they snottily explain the Rayleigh effect. Every conversation becomes a chore, and weighing your words ahead of time is exhausting.

It's almost like if they leave a loophole, or any exception unstated, someone will think they weren't smart enough to catch it.

They do it most when they are intimidated by the other person or when they feel irritated by the other person (as a means of making that person stop talking). Be sure you aren't saying a lot of things that are inane small talk if your husband dislikes small talk.

I like Spartee's suggestion. My version is to bemusedly state, "I stand by what I said the first time."

Tell him that Ben Franklin told us the way to be charming is to never contradict anyone.

Flydye, I was kind of thinking the same thing. The disparity in treatment for guys versus gals is a bit stark.

In an earlier letter, there was a gal who stops having sex with her husband. That was, in some people's minds, only reason for the man to focus on his own failings, try harder, focus on her needs, etc., etc. It was something for him to fix, or simply deal with...for the children (and because it was his fault to begin with, no doubt).

In this case, a guy is an argumentative boor? "Leave him!," comes the reply.

Uh...okay.

Excuse me, Choika.

About six letters back, a woman recently had a baby and cut her husband off from sex, moved all the kids into her bed, and when she was asked by her husband to at least remove the six year old so HE could sleep in his MARRIAGE bed, was told that not only wasn't that happening, but it was also off the table for discussion.

Because that level of disrespect is very hard to defend, the fall back position of 'post partum' was dredged up and long strings of prose were written about how the guy should suck up a loveless, sexless existance for a year for his wife to 'get better'. He should keep trying!

Granted that man had kids, but for this guy it's 'kick him to the curb' in two posts flat.

Has anyone asked if maybe, just maybe, this woman is incredibly oversensitive to any criticism? She probably isn't, but no one bothered to ask this. No serious digging and analyzing about how she might be at fault, or overreacting, or what change might have come over their relationship.

Nope! She made a mistake ever marrying this loser and she needs to 'cut her losses'.

I'm sure Amy is much more informed on the matter, but I am only going by what I read.

My husband is extremely analytical, to the point where he has a negative or argumentative response to almost anything I say

He's not 'analytical' he's pissy, big difference. Though I'm not sure where the narcissism comes in. Perhaps there's more to the story.

I think that a relevant question here is whether he's always exhibited this behavior. Or is it something that had cropped up after they'd married?

Case in point: a friend of mine is married to a woman who behaves this way. She has for as long as I've known her. He used to think that it was because she is an 'intellectual', only later to realize that she's kind of a bully. She's someone who wants to be seen as the smartest person in the room, and has to be right - even on subjective questions, and even when it's evident that she doesn't know what she's talking about. But it's not narcissism in her case. She's really kind of insecure and frustrated because she's never gotten anywhere in her career. At this point, I think that he's resigned to the fact that she's not going to change and is just biding his time until the kids go to college.

I've known a lot of people like this. One of them was painfully like this...and he got over it.

I've also known a lot of hypersensitive people of both genders who take any criticism as a personal attack.

Isn't it funny how both of these diagnosises sort of meld together? Taking a statement as a challenge/attack. Hmm.

But she is writing and he isn't.

Narcissists rarely agree to therapy, as they can't take the challenge to their manufactured authority or let anyone expose them as the tiny little people they actually are.

Wow! A powerful dose of needed reality!

Nice job, Amy!

I am struck most by the LW's choice of words. She is blaming him for her depression and unhappiness. He may be contributing, but she is responsible for filling her own cup. Also, a debate requires two people to be a debate. If she is engaging, she is part of the problem.

I hope they don't have kids now or in the future.

My wife is a scientist. She has the credentials to prove it. The problem is that she thinks it is her scientific duty to offer an alternative hypothesis to everything I say.

lol my boyfriend does this too. I call him on it and tell him he's "doing it again," and that usually gets him to stop and apologize. I get that he's very problem-solving oriented, but sometimes I just want to him to agree with me that the driver who nearly ran me over in the crosswalk is a jerk instead of saying, "Well maybe the sun was in his eyes. What time of day were you walking? What was the sun's position in the sky? Which direction was the driver heading?"

The LW's problem seems to be not that her husband is argumentative but that he's constantly doing something that he KNOWS bothers her and that he COULD change with a bit of effort.

This may simply be a situation where they aren't compatible intellectually and it has become too much to deal with. No one is necessarily at fault. My brother had married a nice girl who isn't nearly as intellectually engaged as he is. Over time it's become an issue because they're very different people in this way. She's not stupid, but she's certainly not an analytical person or someone who thinks too deeply about things. He's interested in all sorts of things and has always been very smart. I can tell that he gets frustrated with her when they're trying to have a discussion about something and she won't give him a clear reason for her thinking on the matter. Then she takes his persistence as bullying and gets upset.

This could have been my marriage! Except so far it doesn't sound like he's hit her or physically threatened her when she's called him on it. And for the record, mine didn't treat me that way to begin with...but the signs of him treating others that way were there. I was just far too young to think that it could turn on me.

LauraGr....you're right of course that she is responsible for her own depression and unhappiness, but in my own experience, the constant belittling (which starts as small "helpful" corrections) wears at your self-esteem to the point you begin to believe you're helpless. Perhaps Amy's response will be the wake up call to negotiate a solution or get out.

(For the record, despite the kids, I also believe this should have been the approach for the fellow with the family bed issue. Negotiate a solution or get out. Although with kids in the picture, allowing more time for the negotiation seems reasonable.)

This is a bit extreme, but with a twist, there are two similarities to my relationship with my ex-wife.

We'd discuss something. I'd offer my opinion, which was often direct--not confrontational, just without ambiguity--and she'd get mad and criticize me for that. So, I'd not respond next time or be ambiguous and she'd get mad. As time went on, she increasingly would turn discussions back on to herself.

I now realize that she rarely really wanted to hear my opinion. She simple wanted to be right and it irritated her when I would, without realizing it (honestly), prevent her from making that claim. Toward the end of our marriage, while starting a discussion she would declare my position in such a way that in her mind, anything I said was suspect. It would have been laughable, if it wasn't so tragic.

"Did she ask about the counselor twice? Did she suggest he talk to his friends about how he is, so he might get an objective opinion outside the bonds of marriage? Did she give him half the chance that a guy is expected to give a woman who is 'moody' or 'post partum'?"

Moody and post-partum depression are fixable. Narcissim isn't.

Also, many of us would've advised the previous LW (with the wife who stopped having sex) to bail on the marriage too had there not been kids involved. Cases where personal happiness must be weighed against the well-being of children are more complicated, and usually warrant exhausing all attempts at repair before bailing.

However, this LW mentions no children. So why go through all the struggle and effort, which will likely be fruitless if she's dealing with a narcissist anyway? Life is too short. She should just go find an easier partner to get along with.

I go for counseling, but he refuses to, saying he won't talk to "some stranger" about us.

Wow, echoes of my past. I merely suggested going to counseling and my ex-wife said exactly the same thing. We finally went and she now tells just about everyone that it was torture; that I was just trying to make her change, that it was an attack on her.

I suspect it was about her having to be right and counseling made it very obvious that she wasn't. She failed to see how much the counselor dumped on me. The difference is that I changed for the better. The irony is that the more my behavior improved, the more pissed off my ex became.

I suspect the LW would find the same were her husband to go to counseling. It's also worth remembering that while it would be ideal for the person you love to change, you can't control that. All you can do is work with yourself. However, emotional abuse wears on you more than I realized until I got out of that relationship and with that, changing yourself can be really difficult.

I've now concluded that if one person believes a relationship is bad enough to require counseling and the other refuses to go, that really is enough to call it quits. This isn't about blame, but improving a relationship and that requires some sacrifice by both. If one can't sacrifice that little bit of pride, then they simply don't take the relationship or the other person seriously.

I really hate questions like this one. The LW is trying to come off as some poor little victim here, but there is no way she didn't see this behavior while they were dating. She chose to either ignore or discount it and now she is finding it hard to continue doing either of those things. I was engaged to guy in college who was just like this and it was hard a decision to leave bc he was fundamentally a decent person. I just realized I couldn't tolerate the constant back and forth and left him. Ironically, we were both on our college debate team, so you can just imagine what was like for us.

I don't like characterization of this guy as some sort of abuser who should just be dumped by the roadside. I also think Spartee and Flydye have a valid point. I didn't agree w/them on co-sleeping thread, but they are right that advice given to this woman is totally different than what the man got. Just bc LW didn't mention her children is no reason to discount their possible existence.

The bottom line here is she chose this guy and she is unhappy with the situation. That means she is in the driver seat when it comes to getting the marriage back on track. Just like the guy on the other thread was in charge of finding the solution to his problem. Is it fair? Hell no, but like my seventh grade science teacher used to say, "Life isn't fair." The advice should be the same for men and women.

Sheepmommy,

I just wanted to say that I find your philosophical consistency very refreshing. The two scenarios being compared really aren’t all that dissimilar so it makes no sense to treat them in a dramatically different way.

The main difference between the two scenarios is children. Children change everything. Also, this particular problem seems to permeate all areas of their lives, while the other letter was largely about sleeping arrangements and sex.

Also, it's hardly fair to complain that "everyone is saying leave!" in this scenario. A couple of people suggested it. A couple of people suggested leaving in the last one, too. A couple of people do not speak for humanity.

That said, I think divorce is a bit premature here, too. This guys is being an asshole, but people can stop being assholes with the right motivation. These people don't have to split up over this.

"The main difference between the two scenarios is children. Children change everything. Also, this particular problem seems to permeate all areas of their lives, while the other letter was largely about sleeping arrangements and sex."

Exactly. If this LW does have children, especially very young children, my advice would be the same as it was to the other poster - try to do all you can to improve communication with this difficult partner that YOU chose because you have a family to consider. But I think Amy would've included that info if they did have kids.

Plus, I agree. This seems to permeate every area of their lives, not just the bedroom.

I don't like characterization of this guy as some sort of abuser who should just be dumped by the roadside. I also think Spartee and Flydye have a valid point. I didn't agree w/them on co-sleeping thread, but they are right that advice given to this woman is totally different than what the man got.

Thank you. He occasionally acts like a dick. Not sure how constant it is. People get over being a dick sometimes. Sometimes not.

And it could be a mixture of him acting like an ass and her being a wilting whining flower. No one is totally a hero or totally a villain.

But while everyone was going to proctologically examine that last man for what he did to cause this, from wanting to screw a woman with a torn perinium etc; no one is giving THIS man the benefit of the doubt...or questioning the women except for a couple people.

I'm not counting who is saying what, but it seems a pretty clear majority. I say this as one of the many voices to dump his ass. So I'm showing a consistancy as well...

The husband's behavior reminds me of a friend of mine's oldest son. The son has Asperger's and is really quite oblivious to other people's emotional reactions. He is very self-centered (or narcissistic)and certain of his own rightness. Or at least uncaring and/or unaware of how he is perceived. He is highly intelligent and is an engineering student. Actually, the similarities are a bit uncanny. Hmmm...

I'm not convinced they are compatible. This seems like something that should have been figured out during the dating process.

The LW, the wife, is always wrong? In what country does she live?

Oh, boy, her hubbie is not clued in.

In America, the hubbie is always wrong. Only we don't write whiney, sniveling letters about it.

I agree the LW should have seen this behavior during the dating phase. But she did not. A male responder said his wife is like the the LW's husband and his response is to say very little and she has no idea what he is thinking.

Maybe others want to have a life like that but personally I want to have communication, not a contradiction every time I open my mouth.

I think most of us were thinking of what it would be like to live with that year after year. Unlike the man whose wife had their children in the marriage bed. That is something that can be worked out, obviously if she does not work on it in a productive way he is not going to stay, hell he was half way out the door when he wrote. Again though IIRC she had given birth recently and many women's hormones are not right for a year after giving birth. Some are right back to sex after 6 weeks, others take longer to physically and emotionally get back in the saddle. This is a very different situation, apples and oranges.

This LW feels she has done what she can do and is at a dead end. How someone deals with other people can change with health changes, but she has not indicated this is new. If this is his core personality it is not going to change. We can all chastise her for not seeing this in advance, but many people marry the person they think their beloved is, look at our divorce rate.

This is not a male/female thing, if a male friend came to me and told me this was going on in his marriage and she would not go to counseling, I would have told him the same thing I told the LW. Get your financial house in order, have your own accounts, stay with your counselor and let them now you are preparing for at least a separation and need to work on preparation to be strong for it. Lastly I would tell him how much I want him to make sure the critical person does not have primary custody of the children.

For those who say that this behavior should have been seen in the dating phase, the reality is that some people are really good at hiding their negatives. My own experience and after talking with a lot of other people in abusive relationships, is that there really weren't obvious signs when dating. Oddly, quite often the signs are that the other person and the relationship is too good (another is that they rush the relationship.)

In hindsight my ex-wife gave two small signs that she was nuts, but at the time they were simply two incidents that would be meaningless with anyone normal. By contrast, by ex's best friend was a complete flake with a series of unstable relationships and has ended up being a remarkably stable older woman in a very stable marriage while my ex-wife is getting more unstable.

Interesting to see how gals above minimized the prior sexless marriage circumstances as compared to a rude mate by saying something along the lines of as "oh, that was just a bedroom issue of no sex..." as if that is something that can be gotten around.

Most guys would much rather be screamed at by an asshole spouse now and then rather than go without sex.

Ladies, if you think sex is as unimportant as that, you are probably not really understanding well the guys in your lives.

No one said sex is unimportant. I said this particular issue seems to permeate every issue of their lives. In the other letter, the LW was not complaining that his wife was a harpy bitch who made him miserable overall. His stated problem was that he wanted his 6-year-old out of his bed. That is certainly a solvable problem, as is this.

Most guys would much rather be screamed at by an asshole spouse now and then rather than go without sex.

Letter after letter and blog post after blog post seem to indicate that men being screamed at by asshole spouses are getting sex elsewhere. It's why women keep being admonished to be nice to their husbands, and rightfully so.

I'm not minimizing either problem. Clearly, it was enough of a problem for these people to write to a stranger asking for help. But a guy not getting laid doesn't matter to me as much as giving the kids they created a two-parent home.

With this marriage and with the other one, I would encourage both LWs to exhaust all options before choosing divorce. Divorce is painful, emotionally and financially, and it's best for all parties, even those without children, to avoid it if possible.

The mistake I see a lot of couples make is in looking at their marriage in terms of how happy they are in any given time period instead of the marriage as a whole over the course of 40-something years. And if you have kids, you've taken on the joint responsibility to raise them, and your individual happiness matters less than their stable upbringing.

I think the label of narcissism gets thrown around a lot. Narcissim has a spectrum, and we all have a bit of it in us...it's part of our ego system. I don't know what else Amy discussed with this LW for her to label him a narcissist, and it would be interesting to know. But without that information I'd say that sure, someone who likes to be right is egotistical, but that doesn't say where he sits on the spectrum or whether that dooms the marraige. It is certainly troubling that the guy doesn't see (or care?) how his diatribes hurt his wife.

My mother was a narcissist. They tend to disassociate themselves with people who mirror back unflattering images of themselves. For example, she loved me because I have a good paying job and a long term stable relationship. She ignored my sister because my sister worked at a non-profit for a low salary and was a single parent. Neither of us are better or worse people - just different. But I made her look "good". Sister made her look "bad". That's how a narcissist works. It's not so much whether the person is making the narcissist look RIGHT. It's whether they look good or bad. Frankly, they have a skewed view of what's right. As long as they look good, they don't give a damn what's right.

It's quite possible that he's gotten worse as he's gotten older. A lot of people get more neurotic as they age.

Asperger's and is really quite oblivious to other people's emotional reactions.

Don't get me started on Aspy's. IMO we should round them all up and ship them off to a volcanic island somewhere to torment each other.

Did you know that the term Aspergers is an erroneous transliteration of the german ArschBürgermeister? Which is an old german colloquialism meaning Master of the Assholes. Somehow the American psychiatric community took it as a scientific term and thought that they'd discovered a new syndrome.

MonicaP Says:

“The main difference between the two scenarios is children. Children change everything.”

How exactly do you know that this is a difference?

We have no idea whether or not children exist in this marriage or not. It is simply a fact that isn’t in evidence.

As a result, the philosophically consistent view point with regard to children being the critical deciding factor would be to issue two alternative pieces of advice depending on whether or not there are actually children in this relationship.

I see no one trying to ascertain if children are involved here or not. Just a lot of the same voices who were pushing for the husband in the last scenario to stick it through and tough it out, now suggesting that this woman should dump her husband like a sack of potatoes.

If children are the key factor wouldn’t it be kind of important to figure out if there are children involved here instead of just assuming there aren’t?

The fact that no one is asking this key question suggests to me that the whole children argument really isn't as critical as some people say it is.

It is improper to assume facts that aren't in evidence and then declare that those assumed facts are what make or break the argument.

That is the equivilant of someone just assuming that they are correct, which isn't a very useful assumption in a discussion.

We have no idea whether or not children exist in this marriage or not. It is simply a fact that isn’t in evidence.

The only information we ever have to go on is what is in the letter, and sometimes what Amy adds later. There's no good reason to assume they DO have children if it's not in the letter. The LW could beat her husband with a hammer every Tuesday night, but since that's not stated, there's no good reason to assume she does.

Amy is pretty good about including all the relevant info, and if she says these people have kids, I will be happy to revise. However, as my opinion in both events is that these people should try to work it out, I don't see a conflict here.

Jake Wrote;
"Did you know that the term Aspergers is an erroneous transliteration of the german ArschBürgermeister? Which is an old german colloquialism meaning Master of the Assholes. Somehow the American psychiatric community took it as a scientific term and thought that they'd discovered a new syndrome."

Nice try Jake. I volunteer in an outdoor program where we deal with children who are affected by Aspbergers syndrome. There are all kinds of levels. Way to haul out your bigotry.

This was in Wikipedia;

I could also look further but already new it was named for the MD who first described it.

"Asperger syndrome is named after the Austrian pediatrician Hans Asperger who, in 1944, studied and described children in his practice who lacked nonverbal communication skills, demonstrated limited empathy with their peers, and were physically clumsy.[5] Fifty years later, it was standardized as a diagnosis, but many questions remain about aspects of the disorder.[6] For example, there is doubt about whether it is distinct from high-functioning autism (HFA);[7] partly because of this, its prevalence is not firmly established.[3] It has been proposed that the diagnosis of Asperger's be eliminated, to be replaced by a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder on a severity scale.[8]"

I am in the process of leaving someone like this. It's been a huge learning experience. He's not an overall bad guy, just not a good match.

In the time we have been together, the criticisms and corrections have gotten so much more frequent and harsh. He actually told me he feels like the longer we are together, the more of his "true self" he lets out. I think the longer we are together, the more I shut up and say nothing because I don't want to be attacked for a belief that happens to be different than his own. It can be something as simple as me saying "its a really nice day today" and he'll launch into an explanation of how I am allowing myself to be tricked into thinking that and the only thing that changed is a seasonal drop in humidity and I would know this if I bothered to analyze the data for the area from previous years. He has this illusion that he is above all the rules and for example, doesn't have to do things like pay income tax (and hasn't for the past 7 years it turns out; the IRS froze his bank accounts and put a lien on his business), doesn't have to obey traffic signs if no one is watching, or pay rent if he'd rather spend the money eating out or on computer equipment. This is horrifying to me as I value my credit rating and want to buy a house in the next year or two.

I am a naturally curious and inquisitive person. I love to learn new things, read about science and technology and, in general, know how things work, cause and effect relationships and the like. If I ask his input on something, he'll scoff, make reference to an obscure mechanical website or tell me I'm not able to grasp such subjects and he doesn't know how to explain it to me in "my terms."

He is clueless socially. He has what I call one-sided conversation with people. He will just start talking at them rather than to them and continue for 20-30 minutes at a time even when the other person is clearly sending signals that they aren't interested, need to go or in general just don't want to continue listening.

Most of my friends refuse to do anything with us as a couple. At a restaurant, he once said to my best friend whose daughter was two at the time, "if you just told her to sit in her seat you wouldn't have parenting problems like this" when the child was squirmy after a long wait for our food.

I made the mistake of signing a two year lease that is about to end. I would have left before but the landlord won't let me off the lease and given his financial track record with things like paying taxes or rent, I don't trust that the rent would have remained paid on time and the last thing I need is a derogatory mark on my credit. I made enough of a mistake by moving in with him in the first place. The things you learn about a person while living with them which, in turn, you learn so much about yourself.

An interesting sidenote in reference to a mention above, several of his business contacts have alluded to the fact that he likely has Asperger's. I'm not a fan of sidewalk diagnosis, but this one sure fits him.

@Worthita I'm guessing that you've got a touch of the Asp as well if you couldn't pick up on the fact that I was joking. I mean who would actually believe that the term Aspergers derives from a german word meaning Master of the Assholes?!? LOL

And sorry, but no one owes Aspys a dispensation from their bad behavior. They're not so out of it that they can't control themselves. You'll notice that they can act civilly towards people when they want something from them.

I'd worked at a company a few years ago where there was an engineer who had himself diagnosed w/ Aspergers. He developed a crush on this sweet Indian girl who was interning for us and when she'd rebuffed his advances (he was in his late 40's and she was about 21), he decided to make her life miserable. I remember being in one meeting where the proj manager asked if there were any complaints about something and this guy loudly stated that he could smell the girls c*nt from across the office and that she should be forced to take a bath. Of course she quit that day. That was just one of many incidents. He may have had aspergers but that doesn't mean that he isn't a shitty person.

How does one get to the point of marriage without discovering that their partner is an ass? Was he always like this? Could he have a medical problem that is causing this behavior? Maybe he just needs attention or a hobby.

If I were the wife, I guess I'd just say "it seems we disagree. We should go talk to a marriage counselor about this" every time he tried to start a debate. After a while, maybe he'd stop doing it or relent to counseling.

I feel blessed to have a wonderful husband. We've had only three arguments in five years. Well, actually we had the same argument three times.

I just realized Amy and I share a birthday. That explains a lot. LOL

"Ladies, if you think sex is as unimportant as that, you are probably not really understanding well the guys in your lives."

It's not that we don't get that. It's that we know this is something that can be fixed. Sometimes a woman will get distracted by the enormous responsibilities of motherhood and forget her obligations to her husband, but with better communication (and/or romance), this issue can be resolved.

Fact is - and we all know it - sex isn't the priority for women that it is for men. The previous LW might have been experiencing an extreme example of this, but most couples nevigate through this truth. The healthy ones negotiate a compromise between their differing sex drives.

Yet, a narcissistic know-it-all can't really be "cured". He's not suddenly going to develop empathy and realize he's causing his partner to feel "miserable and depressed". There's very little hope in that situation.

I'm wondering if this letter was from Michelle Obama?

"How does one get to the point of marriage without discovering that their partner is an ass? "

You'd be surprised (or maybe not). Cluster B's can be very good at putting up a false front for a while, when it's in pursuit of something they want. The longer they do it, though, the more they're going to "let it all hang out" when they're out of the public eye. And eventually their false front is going to collapse; they operate on the premise that they will have intimidated or abused all of their acquaintances into submission by then. As Joe pointed out, sometimes the only initial sign is "the relationship is going too fast". That's because the Cluster B can't wait to close the deal so they can give in to temptation.

And to Jake: Some narcissists will spend a lot of time studying psychological topics, in pursuit of things that they can use to excuse their behavior. Asperger's is one such: "You can't blame me for ripping you a new asshole; I have Asperger's!" Uh-huh. I've dealt with a few people who really did have touches of Asperger's. What I've found about them is that they aren't malicious but just socially clueless. They have no objection to learning social rules of behavior; their problem is that they don't "know the code", so they have trouble figuring out what is appropriate in a given situation. But they at least try. And they don't view social norms as a system to be gamed, the way narcissists do.

I've dealt with a few people who really did have touches of Asperger's. What I've found about them is that they aren't malicious but just socially clueless. They have no objection to learning social rules of behavior; their problem is that they don't "know the code", so they have trouble figuring out what is appropriate in a given situation.

Very true. I haven't been diagnosed, but when going through online questionnaires, I have routinely scored very high on the Aspy scale. Using myself as a baseline, not only do they not know the code, it doesn't make any sense to them, and they have to learn innumerable tiny details for every social situation they can find information for in order to appear normal at all. Then they work it like a computer program: "This situation has elements A, D, E, kk, and O, so use response #1547".

Most of the people like this WANT to appear normal, but don't know how. They certainly don't want to use it as an excuse, because when everyone looks at them like they have two heads, it brings out the, "Oh, shit, I've done it again" response.

On the other hand, this letter could just as easily come from my wife, because she only remembers every time I disagree with her, and thinks I have the same kind of stubborn need to be right all the time. She never remembers all the times I defer to her on things that I'm not very good at, like History, or Geography.

Amy Says:

"No children were mentioned, and I surely asked if they had any, because it's important to know in how I answer."

Thank you for the additional information.

I figured that you did your due diligence in asking what you needed to in order to offer advice.

I'm just pointing out to people in the comment section that if they believe this is a critical piece of information in order to base a valid opinion, and I think a reasonable argument can be put forth that it is, that it would be important to find out before jumping the gun.

The lack of children in this situation certainly means there are less consequences to consider.

MonicaP Says,

“The only information we ever have to go on is what is in the letter, and sometimes what Amy adds later. There's no good reason to assume they DO have children if it's not in the letter.”

I’d just as soon not make an assumption either way and offer conditional opinions that depend upon what the answer to important questions are.

We can always assume all sorts of things and generate fanciful stories to fill in the blanks of any letter we read here. However this merely paints a situation with our own biases and colors them to suit our own psychological perspective. I try to avoid doing things like that when I can and instead will ask for the important information to be filled in.

Amy tends to be pretty good about offering additional information if it is relevant to forming a valid opinion on an issue. Hence why my main criticism was that several people were saying this information was important, but no one was asking for it. This wasn’t a criticism of you in particular, but more of a comment on the general trend I was seeing develop in the thread.

“However, as my opinion in both events is that these people should try to work it out, I don't see a conflict here.”

I agree with you and am sorry if the way my comment was written was confusing. I quoted you because you said something relevant to the point I was trying to make, but I was really trying to address the thread as a whole. I don’t think your stance is in conflict for the reasons you mention above.

"And sorry, but no one owes Aspys a dispensation from their bad behavior. They're not so out of it that they can't control themselves. You'll notice that they can act civilly towards people when they want something from them."

Asperger's is a high-functioning form of autism, not just social awkwardness. I agree that they shouldn't be given a free pass for bad behavior. They need to learn how to function in this world for their own sakes and the sakes of the rest of society. However, don't underestimate how difficult and inexplicable to them so many of the behaviors we intuitively adopt can be. I suspect that Asperger's has become somewhat of a diagnosis du jour and is being made with too broad a brush, but it's very difficult to known where to draw that line and say on this side of the line a person is on the spectrum and on this side they're not.

I agree with Lizzie in this. My youngest son is borderline Asperger's. A close friend of my mother's has a son with full blown Asperger's. When I see or hear most people describing themselves as having Asperger's, I just don't believe them. It isn't just social awkwardness--I have social awkwardness--as was stated it is generally an inability to deal with people in a normal sense. Where my son differs from those who truly have the disorder is that he has a relatively high degree of empathy.

@Jake to be fair, sometimes sarcasm is hard to read in a forum like this. I, too, just assumed you were wrong, rather than that you were joking about the Arschburgermeister thing. It would seem that "Aspy's" aren't the only ones who have difficulty communicating. :)

And your coworker's behavior has everything to do with the fact that he's a jerk, and nothing to do with the fact that he has Asperger's syndrome. A girl in my social circle has Asperger's and, although she tries my patience sometimes, she's far from mean and vengeful. When she makes a situation awkward (which she often does), she lashes out at nobody but herself.

Jake,

I did not care if you were joking or not. I work with teenagers and adults with Asperger syndrome. I did not think it was at all funny. It was an ignorant and bigoted statement.

@worthita make up you mind!

Here's something that will bake your noodle - I'm partially deaf! Deaf people are probably the only other group who can give the Aspy's a run for their money when it comes to poor social skills. I find your chastisement to be disrespectful and degrading to my disability!

Also I work with a lot of purported Aspy's. I'm a software engineer and probably 25% of the engineers that I work with claim to be Aspy's. So it's likely that I have a lot more experience with them than you do. And no, not all people with Aspergers are assholes. It's just very common for them to be. Frankly none of them would care that I find them abrasive.

A neurological disorder is not equivalent to assholery.

Woorthita: So are you admitting to being a humorlous blight upon the soul of humanity?

I'm probably in the minority on this one, but unless Miss Alkon had a more extensive interaction with this woman than the single posted question, I think there is a rush to judgement.

We're assuming that this woman is being wholly accurate in her statement about her husband's behavior.

First of all we know all people are prone to exaggeration. Its just human nature.

Second of all, we know that between the two sexes, women are the more prone to...well feelings and sensitivity. Is there any man here that has not been in a circumstance with a woman (probably lots of different women) wherein the woman is angry at him over something he said that he thought was innocuous...and he has no idea what he did wrong when she gets mad?

Dave Barry had a column about that which always stuck in my mind, I'll recreate it as best I can:

John and Jane start dating, after a few weeks, they're dating each other exclusively, 3 months into the relationship, Jane says to John, "Do you realize we've been dating for 3 months?"

John says nothing, but thinks, "Wow...3 months? Has it really been 3 months?"

To Jane, John's silence is very loud, and she starts thinking, "Oh my god, what've I done, have I upset him? Have I put pressure on him?"

And John is thinking, "Lets see, 3 months, sounds about right, that was when I took the car to the mechanic...bastard ripped me off too...drive shaft needs fixing he says, I know he ripped me off..."

And as his expression gets a bit miffed at the memory, it confirms in Jane's mind, "Oh my god he's mad at me...and he should be too! How could I put him on the spot like this, holding him up to some ridiculous standard like a school girl dreaming of a white knight on a horse come to sweep her away, when I'm sitting next to this great guy whose been so patient..." And at this point Jane bursts into tears, to John's shock and confusion.

"Oh John," she says, "I know there's no knight, I know there's no horse, and I'm so sorry to pressure you...you think I'm an idiot don't you?"

"NO!" He says, glad to know the answer to something. "Forgive me? I just need some time." She responds.

"Yes of course!" he responds, no less confused than before.

He then drops her off at her home, and she calls her best friend and they disseminate every word of the conversation, evening, and relationship, never reaching an answer, but never tiring of the subject either.

Meanwhile, several weeks down the line, John will ask a mutual friend of his and Jane's..."Say Dave...did Jane ever own a horse?"

And there is the difference between men and women.
------------------

Maybe this guy is a narcissistic ass. But maybe she's also just oversensitive and prone to exaggerating his casual breakdown of information as a personal attack, instead of a problem solving approach.

Agree with you on the rush to judgment of this guy based on the letter we have to go by, but as you say Amy usually has more extensive communication with the letter writer than is presented here.

Disagree with you that men have fewer feelings and are less sensitive than women. I think the triggers are merely different, i.e. what they are sensitive to and what hits them where they live.

@Robert - "unless Miss Alkon had a more extensive interaction with this woman than the single posted question"

Just an FYI if you're not familiar with the Goddesses work....she has written here on many occassions that the letters she receives are much longer than what we see and she boils them down to the most concise and pertinent details she can for space. These columns all originally appear in printed Alt Weeklies. Also, she often has back and forth e-mails with the LW for clarification. And she spends time researching the topics. She's not your average, 3-letters-a-day, off-the-cuff-answer type advice columnist.

I'd also venture that's also why many familiar with her work are quick to make certain assumptions when they don't see specific details in the letter. For example, if this LW had ever said there were kids, I'd be willing to give odds that it would have been included in the letter.

Oops....she's already there to explain herself. That's what happens when you're splitting your attention between work and more interesting stuff!

We only have what is written to go by. While the subtext in this letter seems to be 'she's blameless', the essence of the prior letter I mentioned also had the same subtext: a too nice guy who got thrown out of his marital bed by a thoughtless woman who was denying his marital rights.

And yet...that did not stop a whole lot of theorizing about his cruel demands for painful sex, how he was reneging in his 'deal' with a family bed, how he was a total insensitive boor who didn't understand that his wife was currently post partum crazy, how he didn't understand how tired his wife was and how he needed to build a deck to get her fires ignited, how he wasn't manning up to deal with the six year old and making his wife subject to family drama (because...you know, throwing a HUSBAND out of bed isn't family drama...). A lot of value judgement added tax to a pretty straightforward letter.

Here the narrative is treated as very simple: Man is jerk. Woman needs to drop him. No discussing how how she contributed. Not much discussion on how to fix it. Ninety percent of the analysis is: is he a TOTAL jerk or is he just mostly a jerk with some syndrome. Nice. Very nice.

What little blame that is attached to the woman is questioning why she got with him in the first place.

I'm hoping this is not a regular gender thing.

>> I'm hoping this is not a regular gender thing.

It is. You'll see the same thing on any other advice site. Women tend to blame men for problems in a relationship, even if it's evident that the woman is causing them. He's always at fault, she's always the victim. Not all women do this obviously, but it's a fair generalization. I think that it has to do with the fact that women don't perceive themselves as having agency. They feel like they're being controlled by outside influences. Men have agency, so we're to blame when something goes wrong. It's similar to the rational of blaming a parent when their child does something wrong.

Where this tendency is most conspicuous is when a woman commits an horrific crime, such as murdering her children. In every single case that I'm aware of, people blamed the father if he was present. The only reason that Casey Anthony was blamed is because there was no male present, and at that she tried to blame her father.

@gerome :

What you said.

Times 1000.

This woman wrote a great deal about her husband's behavior and their marriage, but the essence is edited down into the letter. If anything, he's worse than presented here. . . . This question describes well what she's going through -- she lives with a narcissistic bully -- a tiny man whose greatest concern is elevating himself by using her as a stepstool. She's miserable and he won't stop. She can either worship marital tenure or look toward her own happiness. I vote for the latter.

Interesting additional info. When I read the letter I thought that maybe she was upset about this argumentative quality he has but might otherwise find him to be a great guy. Sounds like that is definitely not the case.

I'd certainly vote for the latter too, but the question is: considering that he seems unwilling to change, and there are no children involved, why has she remained with a narcissistic bully who is making her miserable and depressed? Did she convey to you, Amy, that she places a high premium on remaining married no matter what? If so, that seems to be a bizarre reason to remain married to a bully who's making you miserable.

My guess is that he's fairly high status. They probably have a comfortable life, which initially attracted her to him, and makes leaving harder.

He also may be a gaslighter - someone who convinces her that the problem is with her, not him, or that it's "all in her head". He's not "criticizing", just "correcting" her. She's "too sensitive" and takes things the wrong way, etc.

It may have taken her awhile to realize what was going on. Maybe she honestly thought she was stupid. Narcissists have an uncanny ability to detect other people's weaknesses and manipulate them.

gerome: You'll see the same thing on any other advice site. Women tend to blame men for problems in a relationship, even if it's evident that the woman is causing them. He's always at fault, she's always the victim. Not all women do this obviously, but it's a fair generalization. I think that it has to do with the fact that women don't perceive themselves as having agency.

Interesting theory. I'm not so sure though. When someone blames another person for relationship problems I don't feel it's because they perceive themselves as being controlled by outside influences. I think it's because they just don't want to accept responsibility for the role they play. It's always easier to blame the other person than to take a hard honest look at yourself.

I, admittedly, have not been on a lot of advice sites but on the ones I have been on, what I've typically seen is the letter writer -- whether it's a woman or a man -- blaming the other person for the relationship problems.

Interesting thoughts, lovelysoul...thanks.

Interesting additional info. When I read the letter I thought that maybe she was upset about this argumentative quality he has but might otherwise find him to be a great guy. Sounds like that is definitely not the case.

I read it the same way. A guy who had a single deal breaking flaw but whom she was otherwise happy with.

I think that it has to do with the fact that women don't perceive themselves as having agency.

Studies have consistently found that there is a significant difference in the perceived 'locus of control' between women and men, with women much more likely to perceive an external locus. Women also tend to use a more passive-aggressive negotiating style, in which they will cast themselves in the role of a victim.

I've seen what Gerome is describing in other forums. There really is a tendency for women to circle the wagons and find some justification for making a man the culprit in these situations, often to the point of absurdity.

"I am struck most by the LW's choice of words. She is blaming him for her depression and unhappiness. He may be contributing, but she is responsible for filling her own cup."

I agree with you. I used to surround myself with narcissistic types like this. They can be infuriating, but for my part I was bringing them into my life and then letting them get to me. When I realized I was repeating a bad relationship pattern, I was able to break the pattern.

You can't change these peoples' personalities though. It may be necessary in some cases to sever ties, depending how bad it is. In my case, those people haven't changed at all - but thankfully I don't have to deal with them anymore. She may be able to bring her responses under control so it doesn't upset her so much, but that still won't necessarily make it fun to be around such a person, and never being able to let her guard down.

There's not enough detail to really say if they're incompatible, but it's bad enough that she's writing to an advice columnist and describing herself as depressed and miserable, so I would guess so. But, if she doesn't understand her own part in creating the overall situation, I think she will probably repeat the pattern by picking someone else with a similar controlling trait.

It might well be that he's very 'analytical' and 'intelligent' and that she's simply not quite as bright, but in this context, that really means he is using logical 'correctness' as a stick to bash her with. It's convenient in that it provides an ostensibly rational justification to bash someone; after all, can't argue with 'correct'. But someone who is good for you doesn't belittle you. He might not be such a bad guy, but maybe he just needs to find someone who is either a match, or someone totally intellectually disengaged, so it's not even an issue, and then he can find some other outlet for his preferred form of intellectual engagement (e.g. online, or specifically intelligent local social groups that also enjoy lively and sometimes forceful debate).

"I go for counseling, but he refuses to, saying he won't talk to "some stranger" about us"

You could maybe try the 'try it for one month, if it definitely isn't useful, we can stop' approach. He might have missed the severity of the situation, maybe explain that you're at wits end and that you're trying to save the relationship here.

@jj and Gerome-

I prefer to call the described behavior an estrogen lynch mob.

One of my close relatives is like this. It was driving me crazy, until I figured out that the only thing you can do is agree with everything they say. Since that's no fun, you also have to avoid them as much as possible. Being married to or dating someone like this would be a nightmare.

His skills as a lawyer wanna-be will serve him well in divorce court.

Meanwhile, a divorce may never happen, as this woman probably married for the money and a comfortable life. You reap what you sow...

"It was driving me crazy, until I figured out that the only thing you can do is agree with everything they say."

One of them I know who is particularly bad, even if you agree with them they will often practically disagree the next moment, e.g.
Them: 'The sky is blue'
Me: 'Yes, the sky is blue'
Them: 'Oh no no no! It's really purple'

Fact is - and we all know it - sex isn't the priority for women that it is for men. The previous LW might have been experiencing an extreme example of this, but most couples nevigate through this truth. The healthy ones negotiate a compromise between their differing sex drives.

The only women who sex isn't a priority for are those whose husbands suck in the sack! Figuratively speaking of course. I've been married for seventeen years, and other than a few brief hiatuses for childbirth, we've been enjoyably active, and at least half the time I initiate it. And while frequency is no barometer, I'll say that I am very very happy in that department, and so is he.

Men, listen up. If sex isn't a priority for your woman,if she won't get dressed up for you or try anything "risky" it isn't because she isn't horny, is embarrassed, or is really just that tired. You don't listen, you don't do it right, or you're in it to get to the finish line so you can go to sleep. Your lady isn't a convenience, and if you treat her like it, she'll treat you like a walking wallet that kills spiders, fixes her car and takes her out to the obligatory birthday dinner.

Women, listen up. If your man isn't listening or just wants to get to the finish line, it's because you don't do it for him in your raggedy ass sweat pants lying on your back and putting up with him till he's done. Men need in encouragement. Take him to a XXX shop, dress up nice,give him a steak, put in a porn, get him drunk,(depending on his age and stamina ladies!)and act like he's the biggest stud on God's green earth and you're the porn star. VIOLA, massages and breakfast in bed for a month, along with whatever the hell else you want. And the added bonus is, he'll actually WANT foreplay the next time.

Duh.