Being 40 is the time when women start to want other women in their lives--as well as men and children and interesting jobs. This is where we have a lack of means and opportunity. I suggest the usual: church, volunteering, work--as well as a new concept called girlfriendcircles.com which is an online group that introduces women to other women in different cities to "friend opportunities". It may be worth a try. Good luck

seek out women who seem happy and secure

This. Exerting lots of energy trying to win over the women who seem to be making a point of excluding you will only make them resent you more. Unless you act so desperate for their friendship that you're scraping your knees with all the begging, in which case they'll probably invite you into the circle so they can keep you that way. Go out and make friends with someone else those moms love to hate.

I think we need a picture. Why don't the LW's ever send pictures??

But as a single guy in his 40's, I can sympathize w/ the LW. Married early-middle aged women can be territorial. They're often wary of single people in general, and probably more so if you're an attractive woman and recently divorced.

So the women currently in your orbit are not inclusive. I ran into this problem when I first divorced. Single men get invited every where but often single women are not on the guest list.

What I did was to join organizations I was interested in. I did volunteer work, I organized community clean-ups, I organized outdoor activities for an outdoors club. I stayed in touch with my old friends and told them about what I was doing and how busy I was. Suddenly I was interesting again, but often I was too busy for their invitations.

I am not sure your former friends are jealous, but I do think they worry an available woman their age who is still hot might be and terrible temptation for their husbands and that they will look bad standing next to you. What they are not seeing is their husbands are often just as frumpy and dowdy as they are.

Stop worrying about being friends with any of these women and find people who are grown up enough to be your friend without your appearance making them insecure.

@Worthita: "I am not sure your former friends are jealous, but I do think they worry an available woman their age who is still hot might be and terrible temptation for their husbands and that they will look bad standing next to you."

That sounds like a decent working definition of jealousy.

"What they are not seeing is their husbands are often just as frumpy and dowdy as they are." That's extremely accurate.

No disagreement from me -- this lady doesn't need to be wasting time worrying about what the Mom Club thinks of her.

And yet how many of them have teenage baby sitters? A 40yo women whom isn't a conniving tramp won't bed the hubby. However the 16-17 yo high school senior would be much easier to convince. In some cases a six pack and a nice ride will do it.

I saw that first hand. To say disgusting would be an understatement. In her case she was a widow which made it even uglier. Most of the other wives were frumpy and to add to it all she'd been left lonely but far from poor.

"What they are not seeing is their husbands are often just as frumpy and dowdy as they are." Oddly enough none of the guys appear to grasp this either. Watching some aged, obese, grease ball chase the milf can be really really sad. The more worn and damaged they look the higher their view of themselves is.

Watching some aged, obese, grease ball chase the milf can be really really sad.

Oh so true! This happened to me once, at a town function, and not that I'm a milf by any stretch of the imagination (well, maybe a little bit, but, no, Crid, I didn't have my little black cocktail dress on, and my 30.06 was in the safe), but this guy that went after me wasn't a Mark Harmon clone, that's for sure! And tell ya what, even when I shut the guy down, big time, his wife (who sadly, yes, is frumpy) bitched me out in front of a bunch of people anyway! I was staring at her, slack-jawed, and by then my BF had come over to me, grabbed my hand, and said, "WTF is this all about?" When Frumpy started screaming at him, he just shook his head, laughed and told her "As IF! She's mine!" and we walked away, leaving Fat-boy and Frumpy slack-jawed and staring. Then they started in on each other. Not pretty.

Why are women so horrid to one another?

Or maybe they don't like her for other reasons.

I agree with the advice that she should look for another group of friends. Trying to ingratiate herself with a bunch of hens who entertain themselves by ostracizing and gossiping about other women they 'love to hate' is likely to be a degrading experience. More so if she actually succeeds. They're never going to be comfortable with her around, and they'll likely sabotage her with any men that she meets.

I'd swear that a lot of women regress psychologically once they settle down and have kids. Especially if they're doing the suburban experience. It's like they've returned to High School. I have friends who went from being mature grounded women to shallow 15 year old girls once they got into that scene.

She needs to stop making her only criteria for friendship be women who have reproduced. In short: Stop trolling the other moms for friendships.

Women and girls can be awful to each other in a way men frequently find baffling. When I was a kid, most of my friends were boys. Life was simple. If they didn't like you, they would either ignore you or punch you. It wasn't until I went to a large high school, where I could find the decent ones, that I made a significant number of female friends.

Really, LW: Look elsewhere.

Not that this would have been any kind of solution, but I'd like to hear LW's answer re: why she didn't actually ask, "Why?" when told that they love to hate her. I suspect it's the usual sitch of, people can smell other people who are afraid of conflict/wouldn't ask in that instance, or they (the bitchy ex-friend) would never have said it in the first place.

Definitely seek out other types of friends.

It could be that LW isn't that good with other women. And, intimidatingly attrative or not, it's hard to join an established clique- hen groups don't take kindly to outsiders. I think that, along with the suggestions to join organizations outside of the school, trying to make friends with individuals rather than groups would help.

Sometimes that "love to hate" comment is meant as a compliment.

In what universe, KrisL?

Yeah, but Monica, I totally get wanting to hang out with other moms, because the kids can play together, too. Childless friends don't necessarily want to see your kid, and getting a sitter every time you see a friend is expensive, not to mention difficult during the week when all the teenagers are in school.

I started a mom's group in my village by looking at back issues of the newsletter to see who had recently had a baby, and putting fliers in their mailbox. The ladies seem nice so far.

Yeah, I get that. I guess I don't understand, since I'm not a mother, but I hear so many horror stories about mom groups. It would seem to make more sense to find women you have other things in common with who happen to be mothers.

The LW might try finding some friends who are older or younger, too. Some grandmas might enjoy fussing over her kids, and younger women probably won't find her as intimidating as her 40-ish frenemies do.

Women have a tendency of 'mob' other women, and sometimes men, once their social group reaches a certain threshold. The LW is wasting her time trying to appeal to this group of women. She's never going to get them to like her. She is the 'other' and so much be ostracized.

People complain that men have been dominant throughout history. But if they weren't we would never have developed civilizations. Women would have kept us isolated at a tribal scale because of their innate tendency to fear and exclude outsiders.

Agreed, Monica, but if you live, like I do, in a village of 1,000 people...

On another note, my mom who is very successful socially always told me making friends is something you need to be proactive about. Keep inviting people over... if they come, they will eventually invite you back, but it might not happen at first because folks are flaky.

One thing I did in September was invite all the neighbors over for a meet and greet. I invited about 20 families, about 6 or 7 showed up. Small turnout? No. You have to assume that when you're new, most people don't have a vested interest in you and won't show. So you cast a wide net. It was very nice, now we know those neighbors better, and it was PLENTY of people. I'll do another one next year.

I've made a huge effort to reach out to the mom next door who has a son the same age as my daughter. She always seems happy I'm inviting her to do something. I think she's shy because her French isn't good. That family was described by the other neighbors as stand-offish, but its just because they are surrounded by a giant hedge which was there when they bought the house. (She's way hotter than me, BTW. And a better housekeeper.)

It's work to get things started. That's just a fact.

A couple of comments.

What happened to her pre-divorce friends?
Was she able to make and keep female friends in the past?

Some women are not good relating with other women. She may be one of them. Especially the hot ones that were always competing for the hottest guys.

My recommendation is to do volunteer work. Try the booster club at her kid's school. Or her church outreach program. She could join the local Lion's club or Optimists club (or rotary etc). These kinds of activities are satisfying on their own and the other people participating are usually friendly at the very least.

Or try a book discussion group at the library.

I would not recommend trying to horn in on an established group of biddies.

Yeah, I wondered about the "previously a friend" thing.

Amy, dead on with the observation that if she were mousy she'd be considered shy.

I've noticed a direct correlation with my weight and how women treat me. At 120 lbs and painfully shy in high school I was considered stuck-up to the point that girls I didn't know were getting "in my face" and threatening to beat me up. I wasn't terribly hot, maybe a seven, and I had no idea that my simply being quiet was what was setting them off.

A few years later I was 100lbs heavier and seen as just shy.

Then I started to take that weight back off, and *blammo*, threat once more.

Put a little back on--safe again.

It's predictable to the point that it fascinates me. My personality is pretty much set in stone now, so it's not a matter of *me* changing when my weight changes.

@LauraGr--

My mother was ostracized by her married friends when she and my father got divorced. They let her back into the circle later, but I can guarantee you that she didn't want any of the husbands (they're no prizes--eeeewww) or treat any of the women differently. I think it's more that some people think divorce is "catching", which some sociologists claim is actually the case.

I will never understand why females ostracize other females *and* use the fact that the outcasts refuse to grovel as grounds for continuing to ostracize them. Seriously, what is one supposed to do when it's obvious that someone doesn't like you? Beg to be let into the circle? Or shrug your shoulders and find someone who doesn't play these stupid games?

when i got divorced i 'lost' my female friends simply because i was divorced - and they weren't. if you're not part of a couple you're not part of the gang. Like MonicaP suggested, i found my friends elsewhere. mostly men. thankfully my children are grown now, so i don't have to worry about finding friends for them. but i understand the LW's dilemma - it can be pretty lonely when you don't fit in with the clique. alot of women seem to be stuck in high school and treat others the way they did back then. pretty sad. (i had a typo and originally typed "petty sad". that fits, too)

Amy, I'm in the same boat -- I myself have no kids, but I do have lots of mom friends. Actually, damn near all my friends are moms at this point (I'm 35 and live in an annoyingly baby-centric and wealthy town). I have found over the years that some women are like that (ie, are insecure and/or unimaginitive, and need to only have friends just like them; they don't seem capable of having conversations about anything other than mom-hood. Believe me when I say I've tried). These are the women who are no longer my mom friends; they are the acquaintances to whom I say hello politely in the grocery store and spend exactly zero time and energy trying to force a connection with when there isn't one.
Thankfully, I also have a crew of girlfriends who are moms and make a point of having their own lives/spending time with female friends. These are the women I like and admire, especially the ones who treat me exactly like they treat the other women they hang with who are moms. If I ever do have kids, I hope to be one of them. They show by the way they live their lives that it's possible to strike a balance, even if it's not a perfect one. Almost all of these ladies hold jobs, most spend a considerable amount of time being good wives and moms (i.e., spending quality time with their families regularly), have hobbies - and still make time to occasionally do things like skiing, go drinking, book clubs, dinners, camping, etc. with a group of just women. I love this. I think it's super sad when women throw their identities away because now they're moms and "don't have time" for friends, etc. Think the "Mom jeans" sketch from SNL -- "I'm not a woman, I'm a mom!"

Yeah, many moms have argued with me, Wait till you have kids! (which, BTW, is rude and presumptuous -- how do you know I have tried and can't?) but hey, guess what: I WAS a kid once! I remember damn well my own parents, and what they did and didn't do, and that alone entitles me to my opinion on mommy-hood. I have other reasons thath I believe I don't have to bear children to be correct or even have opinions, but like the forced friendships, I've stopped bothering to dig them up, as it seems to make no difference.

However, I'm not divorced -- just childless and married. I have already thought about this though, when I went thru a period where I though my marriage wasn't going to make it, and after considerable thought I concluded that I would experience some weirdness, at best, from some of my friends. I think divorce scares a lot of people, perhaps rightfully so -- especially those who have no experience with it -- however, it is not, in fact, contagious, and I wish people were better at reacting to the news...just like deathbysnoosnoo, I watched some women truly ostracize my mom when she & my dad divorced many years ago -- and she sure noticed too. (Unfortunately, being still about 4 years old on the inside, this scarred her for life (she was 38 then, 63 now)). I continue to watch her behave like a left-out junion high girl when someone actually doesn't see her in a crowd but she's certain they are snubbing her. Also sad.

But the point is that a healthy person would be able to move on from this at some point. I think the key here for LW is to work on developing her own confidence and strength (some of the methods for which have been suggested previously and are great IMHO), and then she really won't care as much about biatches like that soccer mom who likes to feel better-than. I would add the suggestion that even if you don't "feel" it, act as if. Act as if you are awesome/worthy/whatever it is, chant it to yourself if you have to, and it might help you start putting that vibe out, which in turn might generate responses from people that empower you. It has taken me a long time, but I have learned that people who judge you because you're divorced, hotter than them, fatter than them, fired, drive a crappy car, educated more or less than they are, are really not your friends...if you want them to be, then you might want to look at that.

Dear LW: Become the governor of Alaska. I hear there's an opening.

(And Flynne has an '06. Wow, again!)

I don't think any of this should be a surprise, though. I see attractiveness as a handicap for a lot of women, because it's a distraction in so many environments. I guess it's not easy to tell so many people to back off, get away, quit bothering me, etc. Sorry.

If you are quiet and reserved it is harder for people to understand who you are. If you are hot, and reserved they are more likely jump to conclusions that you see yourself as above them.

Sometimes bridging the gap between yourself and a group of established friends can be as simple as asking questions, a little self disclosure and volunteering to help. My girlfriend makes friends with spectacular ease. I am more reserved and have found myself on occasion quietly studying exactly what she does when she greets a stranger. Inevitably she hones in on the one thing that seems to be important to that person at the moment, it may be their dog "his coat is so shiny", their child "she's such a little darling, aren't they wonderful at that age" or it could be "aren't we lucky it's such a beautiful day". She is always positive and never phony. Few refuse to respond to her overtures. If you genuinely want to make friends observe what is important to each of those women and speak to that interest. Ask simple questions that are genuinely interested in what is going on with these ladies, few people refuse to answer. When my girlfriend tells a pet owner "his coat is so shiny" and then asks "what do you feed him?" she is immediately drawn into a conversation.

Sometimes all that is needed is to be seen as someone that could be relied on "is there anything I can do to help" or "I've got a power-washer, do you think it would help?" Baking muffins or cookies are also standard gestures of friendship.

Before you head out the door with a basket of cookies though, first check your attitude. Ask yourself do you see yourself as above these women? If you do whether because you spend more time taking care of yourself or because you were an executive and they are stay at home moms, trust me it shows and it's standing in your way. If this is the case its not the end of the world. Re-evaluate these women and find a way to appreciate each woman for something uniquely theirs. When I was 18 and my mother-in-law was from another part of the world and as foreign as a Martian I knew I had to find something I could love about her. For me it was her marvelous pickled beets that was the wedge holding open the doorway to making a connection with her. You too can find something about each woman you wish to make friends with that interests, intrigues or impresses you.

I mentioned self-disclosure because I am also a quiet, reserved woman and I have found that when I was younger a lot of people misunderstood me simply because they lacked information. Being reserved can come from being afraid of being judged, but the people you want to make friends with need to learn your qualities somehow. Friends are people who like us even though we are not perfect. Don't be afraid to reveal who you are after all, you do want them to be friends with the real you right?

Finally I would say if you are still determined to cultivate these friendships then begin to act like you are already friends. Don't be overly quick to be insulted, always give them the benefit of the doubt. Your girlfriend that said you are one of the moms they "love to hate" was disclosing something intimate about herself and you may have jumped to a conclusion there. True, it would have been nicer if she had said "we all so admire your figure" but her comment was offhand and now in your mind she is categorized as "previously a friend." If something similar happens in future just say "ouch." Believe me, it will lead to further discussion, explanations and real conversation and that is so much preferable to losing another potential friend from your life. Like in kindergarten, be considerate and be generous. Give it time to grow and it will come. Remember, you are a good person and they are a good person, who just doesn't know you yet.

My breastfeeding wife lost a lot of weight compared to how she used to be (apparently breastfeeding does that - she is definitely eating plenty enough) and she is now at a 'perfect' weight, she really looks good .. not anorexic thin, but 'just right'. I've noticed many of her (frumpy and/or overweight) female friends etc. regularly make comments like 'you are too thin' (some even make comments that it's 'unhealthy' and they express 'concern'). I don't think they mean it maliciously, at least not consciouscly, but I am sure they just subconsciously want to bring her back down to their level of frumpiness so they can feel better about themselves in their 'group'. I'm afraid those comments may be sinking in a bit though.

Don't even waste your time trying to befriend these frumpy, middle-aged hen moms. Find women who are secure and happy..you will be fine. Or, how about guy friends? I've never given up my guy friends now that I am a mom (luckily, I married someone without issues in that regard...a deal-breaker for me.)BTW there is nothing wrong with being cute, dressing nice AND being reserved. Screw them if they don't like it.