Before I bailed on my marriage, I suggested to Ex that we talk to someone; in particular, the minister at his church, because I thought he would be someone Ex was comfortable with, and I had already met him a couple of times. He seemed like a nice guy, willing to help, all that. Ex said "I don't think so, counseling is a waste of time and money."

There really wasn't a helluvalot more I could do. I went by myself of couple of times, but he adamantly refused. Can't argue with stupid, so I left. I think we're more tolerant of each other now. I wouldn't say we're best friends, and it's been a little rocky at times, but I think the decision to leave was the right one. Our girls are okay for the most part. Do I wish it had worked out? Of course I do. Am I glad I left? Yes I am. But that's just me. You've got to at least give it a shot.

One of the biggest problems with marriage counseling is that people wait until the marriage is mostly over before they go. It's a last-ditch effort to save the marriage when it should be something you try when you're both still motivated to work at it.

Marriage/Couples counseling needs to be a requirement BEFORE marriage.

I also had the Ex who didn't want to go to counseling, but he was too much of a narcicist to let me go by myself, so he agreed to go with me.
Our appts were on Weds, same night as I had a standing girls night out with my BFF to go dancing, so I would get ready for my night out, and drive my own car to the appt. my Ex was a really good salesman, very good at manipulating people, and I didn't help my case by walking in dressed for a night out, but I tried my best to lay out my concerns while he just portrayed me as immature (natch, he was 14 yrs older than me) and just going through a "phase".
Finally, I told my friend we were going to change our nights out, and I started going in dressed as I normally did, jeans, polo shirt, no makeup. The therapist did a visible double-take. Then I did something that the wisest man I know told me to do. He said "Kat, go in, say hi, and then shut up. Ex won't be able to stand the silence, he'll start talking, and he'll start babbling, and then he'll show his true self."
You know what the therapist said then? "This isn't marriage counseling anymore. It just became Divorce counseling, because everything that Kat said is true.".
The looks on both their faces were priceless.

I wonder if some people resist going to marriage counseling because they're under the impression that counseling is some kind of competition, or trial, with a winner and a loser. Or maybe they're afraid that if they go, they'll be exposed somehow and blamed for something.

You won't go to couples counseling but you'll write an advice column? What did you expect her to say: "LW, you're absolutely right—couples counseling SUCKS ASS!"

Here's the reality: questions that begin with the phrase "shouldn't _____ be enough to..." as in "shouldn't our love be enough" or "shouldn't our respect for each other be enough" are usually front-loaded bullshit that indicates you or your partner aren't being realistic about what it takes effort-wise to keep a relationship chugging along. AT ALL. If you loved each other THAT much and THAT perfectly, you wouldn't be having problems like this to begin with.

So don't go to couples counseling. Stay at home and start packing.

I have no idea if this is true, or if it's an urban legend, but I remember reading somewhere that a university Psychology professor (back in the 1980's I think) took a one-year sabbatical and spent the time traveling around the country visiting 'counselors' and pretending to be a patient.

Supposedly, his conclusion was that (in round numbers) one-third of them were competent, one-third were harmless quacks, and one-third were so dangerously incompetent that the patients would end up worse off than they had started out.

*IF* this story is true, it's a sobering thought! By the way: If anybody knows for sure whether the story is true, I'd appreciate a verifiable citation or link to an URL, Thanks!

Like Kat I found that the therapist wasn't really listening/paying attention and was making judgements based on appearances. With my ex the marriage counsellor decided after one session that all we needed were date nights because we had a 3 year old. Anytime I said "I'm not ALLOWED to...." do something, she'd tell me that was silly...of course I was allowed to do whatever. She just didn't see the control as my ex was holding my hand and giving sympathetic/understanding nods when I attempted to communicate my fear in a roundabout way.

That nearly got me killed. Date night = a few drinks + other people around that I might say hello to or look at "the wrong way"! Thank goodness our son was at an overnight sitter the night I ran from the house, with the baseball bat weilding husband enough drinks in that I was quicker up those stairs than he was!

Not saying this happens with all counselling, but how you find the RIGHT cousellor who can actually help in a time of crisis, I'm not sure....

-You won't go to couples counseling but you'll write an advice column? What did you expect her to say: "LW, you're absolutely right—couples counseling SUCKS ASS!"-

Wonderful! But, see, this way he doesn't have to look Amy in the face while he whines about counseling.

Maybe LW can be the one who picks the counselor.

My experience with couples counseling is that the woman and counselor (a man btw) work together to get the man to do whatever the woman demands.

He doesn't want to talk with a stranger about his marriage but is willing to write to a stranger hoping to get her approval for not wanting to talk with a stranger?

It does seem that men seem to be less inclined to therapy.

My husband had a previous bad experience with his first (likely cluster B) wife and therapy and was resistant when I suggested.

I was sympathetic and I started going on my own (I knew I needed help). Eventually he started therapy on his own with another therapist and eventually we got a third couples therapist.

We stopped seeing the couples therapist after about 9 months. We made progress but it seem so superficial. I was ready to leave a few months later. (Our therapist did correct me when I was just bitching the the interesting thing was my husband was mad at him for it-he was still trying to protect me).

What ultimately helped, was a realization the my husband came up in his own therapy, that rang true to me with a book I was skimming (when I was avoiding going home to make it easier to leave). That book was called "How to improve your marriage without talking about it". It is reasonably balanced, I hated reading books that are for women who want to put all the blame on the man. This book helps us both fight fair and with consideration for each other (this book probably will help the other LW, especially if his wife is willing to read it too).

That got us talking, and when he started reading it...there was something that finally got to him on a deeper level than anything previously.

The other thing that helped was a book recommendation by a friend, "The Way of the Superior Man". I have always been very masculine and I swooped in and saved him from his first marriage. This helped us both get back into a more natural balance of masculine and feminine.

He started standing up to me and calling me on my shit. Even telling me he was going to leave me because he deserved someone who didn't have 1 foot out the door (he was right). That was a major change in the dynamic...he stopped needing me.

I guess all this was to say...maybe he can start with some books and put some effort into it.

Relationships take work. You gotta put in something.

I want to address that comment about 1/3 of the counselors being competent, 1/3 being harmless quacks and 1/3 counter productive. First of all, we have to believe that the evaluator was Mr. Right and not one of the quacks. Second, as a professional (lawyer) I figure his or her percentages are about right for my profession. And they're about right for the educators I've seen.

Counseling is a crapshoot no matter what kind of counseling you get, made worse by the fact that most people aren't going to talk about it (so you can't just ask around and get recommendations). It's just better to at least make the effort than to continue doing what's not working.

For counseling to work, both parties have to agree to leave their egos at the door and be willing to listen, and understand that this is not a confrontation so much as a lesson on how to effectively communicate. We are all works in progress, we all have different levels of experience, or different hot buttons, or what ever, and sometimes we need an unbiased third party to help us see what is setting us off, so that we can control our response and deal rationally with the topic being discussed.

I hate confontation with every fiber of my being. I was a doormat for years, because I would literally shut down rather than speak up for myself. I learned, through therapy, that I could have a spine without the drama and conflict that I had learned to associate with it from my childhood. Until I had someone trained to help me ID the problem, and give me ways to deal, I was a hamster in a wheel.

A good therapist will teach you how to work together as a team, and understand what the other person is saying, instead of translating through your defense filters. If the first one doesn't seem to be helping after a few weeks, don't give up, find a new one, not every therapist is a good fit for you.

"We love each other. Shouldn't that be enough for us to work through things together?"

Translation: I love my wife, just not so much that I would actually be bothered to try resolve a major problem in the relationship by, shock and horror, talking to someone who might be able to help save the relationship.

Trust me LW, that's not how you're thinking about it *now*, but it is exactly what it boils down to, and it may not seem like it now, but losing your marriage because you didn't want to "talk to some stranger" is frankly absurd and idiotic. If your wife has reached the point of telling you she wants to speak to a counselor, it may well be a 'last resort' shot at saving this thing in her mind, and you might not realize just how close you are *already* to losing her. Wake up. You might as well try it if you really care about the relationship.

The only thing I'd add to Amy's advice is to find a neutral therapist without an agenda. Anecdotal evidence suggests that a high percentage of marriage counselors are biased toward women, and others have a religious background that leads them to avoid talk of divorce even in the worst situations.

Beth nailed it.

To the LW: Couples counseling, focusing on making the wife happy and the husband wrong, is a great ploy for the wife. It will go on until she's put all her pieces in place; if she's been fighting for two years, this may well be the last move before a "trial separation".

In other words, she may be draining your accounts, banging (an)other guy(s), and now just needs to set it up socially so she won't be a pariah among your friends and family when the SHTF.

Based on my experience, I'd suggest getting a P.I. FIRST.

I will never, ever, ever participate in couples counseling again.

Of course couples counseling skews toward the woman. Counseling requires..... talking. Let's face it, many men just can't compete verbally with their SO. So she ends up monopolizing the session. I'm not speaking from personal experience, but observation over many, many years. Even the recent column about the 50-ish man seemingly unable to communicate with the woman he was dating, proves my point. Men, if you allow a woman to make all the decisions, and do all the talking, you're going to end up resentful as hell. A situation co-created by your silence.