What does "I love you" really mean anyway? Remember the Meatloaf song Paradise by the Dashboard Lights? I'd post the link if I knew what I was doing with such things. 'Loving' someone can be fraught with ulterior motives. "I love you=as long as you do things I want you to do, blah blah." How much do you really love someone when the relationship ends? Is this where you start hating the person? Yeah, I think it's a minefield with some people.

The first time BF told me "I love you" I simply smiled real big and said, "I know, I can feel it." He doesn't have to tell me, it shows every day in how he treats me. I think Amy's advice is sensible. It's safer initially to announce one's love for things about the relationship without making the big declaration: I love you.

I agree, Just me, that the words "I love you," much like a marriage proposal, should not come as a surprise. I haven't thought about it in these terms before, but after reading this I definitely think it makes total sense to show love before making a big declaration out of it. That way, it won't actually feel like a big declaration and likely won't be as scary for both of you (or as fraught with second-guessing and looking for hidden intentions). Another advice columnist (but I love you best, Amy) put it nicely, I think: the time for "I love you" comes when it's about to start feeling like a lie to not say it, and that comes pretty naturally in a healthy relationship. Not that I don't advise those with past issues to take it slow when it comes to declarations of love, but that can still include showing love even if you're still trying to work out the words.

And thanks, Just me, now I've got "Let me sleep on it" running through my head in a loop.

There you go, Just me. Right there in my bookmarks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG5YyWbij28

"So now I'm praying for the end of time/to hurry up and arrive"

Sorry, what were we talking about?

It is my experience, watching dozens of relationships fail and taking the lessons learned right here, that many, if not most people trust people they do not fully know.

It's not enough to declare something not in evidence so that you can feel better about her, or him. You have to know yourself, then your partner, then ask yourself about Heinlein's view:

Is their happiness essential to your own?

If so, and you make no great sacrifices to support your relationship - that might be "love". And you can say so, to everyone.

Guys - on timing the three little words: never say them first. She'll tell you when she's ready to hear them by telling you first.

Some Alternatives:
I'm getting attached.

I like being with you.

No, those jeans do not make your butt look big.

I found myself thinking of that other Meat Loaf classic, same album: "Two Out of Three Ain't Bad."

I do try to show my wife that I love her, so to that extent I agree with "Just me," but I do try to avoid being one of our Minnesota stereotype Ole and Lena jokes:

Ole and Lena celebrate their 50th wedding anniversary with a big party. Family, friends, a polka band, dancing, lutefisk and lefse, the whole shebang. After the pickled herring is finished off and the last of the guests leave, Lena says to Ole, "Dat vas a nice party, but dere's vun ting I don't understand. Ve've been married for fifty years, how come you never tell me you luff me?"

"Vell, Lena," replies Ole, "I told you the day ve vas married dat I luffed you. If I changed my mind I'd haff let you know."

LW, it's not "women", it's you.

re Meatloaf--personally, I'm "All Revved Up With No Place To Go"!

As a girl, I have never said "I love you" first, even if I thought it. In fact, and this may be a weird quirk on my part, I don't love shit. I might like bacon, I might "really like" his kisses, but no utterance of love in any way, shape, or form escapes my lips (I know it might be weird. Sorry.).

Turns out I lied. I love me a good game of pool.

So... way back in the day, when I was in college, I dated a guy for awhile. He was moderately intelligent, and seemed fairly nice. We'd been dating for a month when we went out to a concert (symphonic) with his friend & that friend's girlfriend. After dinner & the concert, we went back to the dorm/apartment and he confessed his love.... along with the fact that he and his friend had planned on telling their respective girlfriends "I love you" on the same night & we'd all become best friends and live happily ever after.

Yeah, that didn't last.

Aside from the giant serving of cheesiness, it was so forced, artificial and fake that it is the ONLY thing I really remember from that evening. It was like he thought it was a hoop he had to jump through regardless of feeling, and if he made it a "big thing" it would somehow be special.

It was really weird.

No, those jeans do not make your butt look big.

See, I prefer - I dont think so honey, but I'd have to see what you look like naked to give an accurate assessment

"The "I love you" a woman does want to hear is the one that's shorthand for "I'd like to be the one who's there for you when you can't quite get the Velcro to close on your adult diaper" Amy, you hit that one outta the park!

I remarried my first husband for the second time a few years ago...We got married atop a high hill in a historic cemetary, because I wanted to be sure he understood what "Til Death do you part" means.

Our invitations featured a snow-covered volcano and read "We request the Joy of Your Company as Hell Freezes Over." We're fun old farts.

Oh men, how effeminate you've become to ask permission for everything!

It is your feelings --- speak them any time you want to, and if a woman treats you badly for that --- it is her problem. You might be sad and sorry to love such spoiled bitch, but do not allow her to give you permissions to feel and to speak.

"Turns out I lied. I love me a good game of pool."

Now there's my kind of woman! Eight ball, nine ball, or cutthroat?

Eight ball was the first game I learned, and since it's the one most frequently played in bar settings, I have the most experience with it. Because I didn't know how to steer my cue ball, I learned how to make crazy shots, but I lacked strategy.

Nine-ball is fun too, and when I started playing, the importance of steering the cue ball became VERY CLEAR. Some people complain that it's too sloppy to be fun, but if you're playing somebody with skill, I think the slop advantage is significantly diminished. I've rarely seen a tournament where the person who relies on slop beats the strategic player.

Cutthroat is okay, but not my favorite. However, it has improved my strategy and helped my overall skill.

Scotch Doubles can be fun from time to time. In a tournament setting it really puts the pressure on in terms of my strategy and focus, as I don't want to screw my partner for the next shot.

From following the Robert Glover,dating gurus and such ilk, I decided that I didn't need permission to simply express myself. No More Mr Nice Guy!
When I told my recentest now-ex 'those-three-little-words', I added, "You don't have to say it, you just have to hear it." In fact, I'd know her for a year already.
The dating gurus do agree, when a man says 'it' first, he throws the attraction physics all off. He lowers his perceived value in her subconscious... even when she was the one holding out to hear 'it' first... "Value" is something that's not clearly understand as an element for attraction, and it needs to be explored more!

Eight ball? Nine ball?! Try FORTY BALLS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Tk1I0u0SVs

Ha! I thought you would be posting something like this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiZF6o-AU64 *

That one was kind of boring. There are better ones if you are interested in doing a quick search.

Amy said: "It's kind of like how I eat. I don't eat carbs (flour, sugar, fruit, starchy vegetables). There's no need to count calories. I just eat when I'm hungry -- and protein balanced with enough fat to satiate me. The notion that I'd pull out a pen and pad and add "Green bean, x calories," is just ridiculous."

Amy, I'm a low-carber myself. I think you might have meant to add legumes/beans to the list of the Top Five High Carb Foods: grains, legumes/beans, sweeteners, fruit, starchy vegs. I write to point out that before I tracked calories, I was getting fatter and fatter on a very low carb diet with NO CHEATING. It _is_ possible for an emotional eater to do so, if one indulges in sufficient low carb gluttony. Very easy, at least for my body and personality.

So, just to set the record straight, if you're doing everything "right" as a low-carber and you're still packing on the lard around your waistline, it might be time to get out a pencil and paper and get real about how many calories you're consuming, including those from green beans! Eric Westman, MD, actually makes that point in his book "The New Atkins". I didn't have to track calories forever, but it was quite an eye-opening education to do it for a little while, helping to educate me in understanding what a "normal" amount of food for a human is.

Unlikely, but true. And I'm not the only one.

Six cheeseburgers? Probably not, depending on the size of the burgers, that would be too much for me. But a ton of nuts (just raw or toasted, not the supermarket dreck), yes. A ton of cheese, yes. I've done 30 soft-boiled eggs in a day -- just suck'em right down like oysters. Face down in sour cream. A few avocados. These are all very caloric low-carb foods that go down real easy.

Perhaps I'm a testimonial to low-carb dieting, in that I only got to about 40 lbs overweight, despite entertaining an undeserved trust in the low carb belief that if you eat adequate fat and protein, your compulsive emotional eating will evaporate. It didn't for me, though if I get into the carbs my appetite gets stimulated even MUCH more than it currently is. I'm willing to believe it's true for you and others, but didn't work for me.

If you've read Richard K. Bernstein, MD, and I'll bet you have: _any_ food overeaten will cause an insulin reaction, simply from the stretching of the stomach alone, before you even consider the metabolic properties of the food itself.

"I love you" said with sincerity merely tells the other person that you have a working vocabulary of at least three words, two of them pronouns.

Talk is cheap and "I love you" is no exception. Let the actions speak for themselves.

How did you ever manage to work this into a discussion of low-carb dieting?

Amy-- stop letting people hijack the threads!

I had a great experience years ago with a client I was trying to date... I told her how I'd had to make some mental adjustments (reading David D!) before I could ask her out.
Her reply was simply "What for?"
That was when I realized what the dating coaches try to teach us-- that we already have everything we need. We just need to learn to use it.
I realized-- I was already there.
For lots of guys, that easy message gets lost in the lessons, which are mainly practice exercises to help us loosen up and put ourselves "out there".

BTW-- Nick Savoy, from Lovesystems, is in the news with his latest book FOR WOMEN... "It's Your Move".
I'd say, no matter how good or bad it is, it's long overdue.

{cough, cough, clearing throat}

Folks, I didn't "hijack" the thread. Amy gave an analogy about low-carb dieting, and it so happened that the analogy was based on some assumptions that may not be quite ubiquitous, so I commented so that we are all clear about the realities of low carb dieting and pursuing health -- a subject dear to both Amy's and my heart.

But by all means, the low carb point has been sufficiently made now, so please continue with the discussion about saying "I love you". OK with me! I'm enjoying reading your contributions.

This old lady says: never, ever, ever should a woman say it to a man first. To a puppy or a child, sure, but never to a man.

@Joe

Thanks for the hijack ... so I'm not the only one to gain weight on a low-carb diet. I'd be interested in hearing more, but perhaps we need to take this offline in order not to annoy the others.