Unequal laws, by rewarding defection, make trust of women by men foolish. When manliness is punishable at whim, you'll get less of it. Women can enjoy unequal laws or manly life partners.

There's more, but Dr. Helen has said it better.

http://www.amazon.com/Men-Strike-Boycotting-Marriage-Fatherhood/dp/1594036756

dude, this is where you move on, and take what you learn.
you had a moment to do a simple: "what did you just say?" to the idiot in your group of friends. this tells everyone that a line has been crossed AND recruits your other friend to back you up.

This powerful thing signals your group that your date is there at your behest, AND you expect good treatment of her.

Put that way, you don't even have to do any lifting, because group dynamic may put the idiot in place.

Unless the idiot runs the group, at which point you shouldn't be bringing a date around.

Once you blew that? It was OVER. She might've accepted an apology, but why would she forgive?

Certainly now, simpering and whining are beneath you, so STOP. Let her go, and find another.

yep, the dude caved. Maybe no backbone, maybe no whit. Doesn't matter. Lesson learned. Time to move along.

phunctor, that looks like a very interesting book. Thank you for sharing it. And I see your point. Our society in general wants men to stop being men, except when we want them to be men.

Does that sound confusing? It does to us, too.

The Goddess writes:

Sure, you did say you were sorry...and email her that you were sorry and leave her multiple voicemails saying that you were sorry and then flap your lips some more and try to ask her out to say you're sorry in person.

Apologizing for someone else's behavior seems to underscore his wimpiness. He isn't the one who said something crude, boorish and vulgar. So, why is he apologizing for the clown that did?

Worse, why is he doing it just so he can do it again and again?

He isn't apologizing for his own unwillingness to stand up for her. He's offering proxy apologies for his uncouth friend's behavior. (Something this idiot wouldn't do for himself, and probably wouldn't want anyone doing for him, either.) It's worse than just not standing up for her. It almost seems like he's taking his rude friend's side over hers.

Amy, one of the things I value about your columns is that you're not afraid to tell someone when the problem can't be fixed, and the opportunity with whomever this person was with is gone for good.

One of the first columns of yours that I read was about a woman who had a date with a really hot guy, then called him up in the middle of the night, drunk. After which, he stopped returning calls. She begged you for advice on how to fix this, and you bluntly told her, "You blew it. What the guy's trying to tell you, if-the-phone-don't-ring-it's-me-style, is that he saw the future staggering toward him, and chose to duck out of the way."

Or the time that a woman said to a guy whom she described as "the man of my dreams," "No wonder your wife left you and your daughter refuses to speak to you," or something like that. Then deluged the guy with cards and flowers, trying to apologize. But certain things can't be fixed. And once you've shown a guy your inner Evil Bitch, if he has any self-respect at all, he's gone.

But on top of telling these people that these opportunities have been damaged beyond repair, you at least tell them what the problem is and how to fix them. Which is probably the only way they'll have any chance, however remote, of showing the people they lost that they've fixed their problems.

It's too late for this lady, but not too late to say something to your obnoxious friend. Next time you see him, say to him,"Look that thing you said to my date, that was not cool. Please don't say shit like that".

It's good practice standing up to him, and may make it easier to do so next time he says something rude to a lady friend.

NicoleK, or perhaps what he needs to do is kick this friend to the curb? Or perhaps I'm acting too hastily. The obnoxious guy must have some redeeming quality somewhere, but this LW did not give us an inkling of what it is.

I just can't fathom keeping a friend around when you already know, as LW reveals, that's he likely going to say something to offend his date.

He writes:

Two weeks ago, we met for drinks with a group of my friends, and a guy in our crowd who's in the habit of saying crass things showed up.

So, should he be surprised when this happens?

He ended up insulting her by making a rude, totally vulgar sexual remark about her. He was trying to be funny, but I could see she was offended.

Why was he "taken aback," as he says? Sounds to me like he knew it was coming, or at least should have reasonably anticipated the possibility?

Perhaps he's hilarious when the boys are out by themselves, but just needs to reign it in when there are dates present.

I just don't know why LW is hanging out with this guy in the first place.

In any case, this was a really great column. It was fun and Amy's advice was spot on and she pinpointed the real issue operating here. And how to address it.

He asked if he should send flowers. She gave hm the advice he needed, which was "address thine wimpiness."

Wow.

Just wow.

This isn't wimpiness, this is conflict avoidance in the extreme. This guy isn't a wimp, he's a spineless douche. Or maybe the bag it came in!

He might have cared about the woman, but not enough to overcome his extreme phobia regarding conflict. I think this is more psychological rather than a lack of self respect. Dude is scared shitless of conflict, and I doubt he knows why.

Buh-Bye! Move on dude, and maybe grow a pair so you'll be able to have a disagreement with your mama once in a while.

Even women who can defend themselves just fine want a man who'll stand up for them. Being a stand-up guy comes not out of memorizing a list of the right things to do but from becoming a person who can't help but do them.

This, LW. You're another example of someone needing to grow a backbone where his wishbone is.

Lesson learned. She's gone, move on to the next one. And this time, make sure the backbone is firmly in place.

The obnoxious guy must have some redeeming quality somewhere, but this LW did not give us an inkling of what it is.

Patrick, that so reminded me of this: "~~When someone says "He's a good guy, once you get to know him", what they really mean is "He's an asshole, but you'll get used to it."~~"

Thing is, no one ever tells you, you don't have to get used to it. You can just say "see ya later... nah, never again".

Flynne nails it, as usual - he needs to grow a backbone. Too late for this one.

And I think Patrick hit something that was kind of subtle, at least I didn't catch it until he pointed it out:

He isn't apologizing for his own unwillingness to stand up for her. He's offering proxy apologies for his uncouth friend's behavior.

What he needed to say, if his apology was to have any chance of working, was not "I'm sorry Bob was such a jerk," but "I'm sorry I didn't say something right then. I let you down."

When manliness is punishable at whim, you'll get less of it. Women can enjoy unequal laws or manly life partners.

I don't buy it. I know too many men who want equal partners AND can still behave courageously. I married one.

It's not about men being men, necessarily. Had the situation been reversed and the woman's friend said something deeply disrespectful, I wouldn't blame the man for walking if his date let it pass without comment. If you love someone, you don't let other people make trashy comments about them, no matter what your gender.

I'd go even further than Patrick:
"Our society in general wants men to stop being men, AND THEN PUNISHES THEM SEVERELY WHEN THEY AREN'T MEN." (not shouting with the all-caps, BTW)

We men have allowed it happen (and for bad reasons in my own case). It's taking a hell of a lot of work to change course, but there is a lot at stake for me, so I do the work.

Yeah, LW blew it with this girl. Amy nailed it, she has fled, he needs to chalk this up to experience and up his game. I wouldn't be surprised if she's now thinking, "Hmm, you know that guy at the guy at the bar the other night, he seems interesting..".

Grey Ghost, you're right that if the apology isn't directed at his own failing it isn't going to work. And he does say that he followed her out and "apologized for ". She didn't buy it (and why should she?), and since she didn't get his sincere apology for not standing up for him, she understands that he's either a douche himself, or a spineless limp dick. Either way, who needs it.

It's hard though, for anyone looking for that special someone, to realize you blew it because of your own inadequacies. He learned a valuable lesson that he's unlikely to repeat, unfortunately that ship has sailed. Maybe he has a chance to go back to her after an airing out period and tell her that. But not today, and not with flowers.

I'm going to post a challenge here. First of all, if Mr. Boor was indeed a friend of LW, then yeah, LW needs to dump his ass. But from reading the letter, it doesn't sound like Mr. Boor is actually a friend -- he's just a guy that hangs in the crowd that LW runs with. So LW may not necessarily have any friendship leverage there.

Second, and here's the challenge part: Let's say that LW does in fact tell Mr. Boor to stuff it -- and Mr. Boor escalates. What can LW do now? It's a lose-lose situation. LW can either try to make nice, or he can respond in kind. The latter will end with him, at the very least, getting ejected from the establishment. Neither of those two outcomes is going to go over well with his date. And it gets a lot worse from there. If Mr. Boor decides to make it physical, then LW winds up in the slammer, charged with drunk and disorderly and maybe assault. The police aren't going to care who started it. LW may also be facing lawsuits -- from Mr. Boor, from the establishment owner, and from bystanders. If word of it gets back to his employer, he may face consequences at his job. And Mr. Boor will be certain to spread as much gossip and rumor as possible, which means LW is facing loss of reputation, with no recourse.

If we are to "settle it like men", then we must be allowed to be men. The current legal climate does not make that possible.

Stop apologizing. You're not the declasse douchecanoe with the big mouth.

Next time offer to beat his ass - and mean it. You'll lose out on the girl again (and you might lose the fight) but at least you'll be rid of The Amazing Talking Sphincter.

Cousin Dave makes a very good point, with one exception.

"Neither of those two outcomes is going to go over well with his date."

I can't speak for the rest of the female population, but if my date verbally stood up for me with Mr. Boor, Mr. Boor then made it physical, and my date responded in kind, I wouldn't hold it against him, even considering all the blow back.

I would actually think it was kinda sweet. Misguided, ill-advised, but sweet.

But then, I disagree with the current trend to criminalize men. I detest the "sensitive, modern, metro-sexual male". I desperately want to yell at them to grow a pair.

"You'll lose out on the girl again"

Why?

Cousin Dave, you should write screenplays. I doubt real life would play that way.

He would probably tell the douchebag, "Dude, you're way out of line."

Douchebag responds, with a chill if insincere apology: "Woah, sorry. Didn't mean to offend."

Or he could just shut up. Or he could make another douchey comment. In which case this group would probably collectively get behind LW. "Dude, that was pretty low-class."

But if they don't, then And leaves with his girlfriend, who probably isn't expecting her boyfriend to start a fight anyway. (And if she is, then he's better off without her.)

You think it would come to blows? Really? With their entire group right there in a public establishment?

Ah, doubtful. But if does come to that, clubs like this have bouncers. You let them handle the douchebag. That's what they're paid for.

I really don't see the whole scene devolving into trading punches. I think you've been watching too many television dramas.

Forget the whole back story. Should you send flowers to her work? Fuck no!

You'd better be in a pretty damned established relationship before you send flowers to a woman at her work.

Now she has to explain to all her coworkers who this fucking guy is? That's not ever going to endear yourself to her.

While we're at it, several voicemails? Dude, you're right on the line of stalking her. You've only been on three dates. You're not "an item". Keep it up and you'll be served with a restraining order pretty soon, and you'll deserve it. This will be served to you at your work, just like your would-be flowers, as she may not even know your home address. Then you'll be the one that has some explaining to do to your coworkers.

Leave her workplace way out of your ridiculous attempts at wooing this poor woman. Christ, why do people have to be told these things?

You guys are all wrong.

He should write a long letter psychoanalyzing himself. First and foremost starting with his childhood and then going on about how things make him feel.

Then he should do an apology tape. Much like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SrGfmJl0fg

LW the girl will immediately forgive you & fall in love with you.

MonicaP schreibe: (When manliness is punishable at whim, you'll get less of it. Women can enjoy unequal laws or manly life partners.) ==> I don't buy it. I know too many men who want equal partners AND can still behave courageously. I married one.

Then you, statistically, are a lucky woman. And he's a lucky man, for as long as you feel like it.

The sly shaming - men who won't put their dicks in the pencil sharpener and turn the handle again are "not courageous" - shows once again the dangers of cultural hegemony. You have no idea your ass is showing.

Damn right I'm bitter. Which speaks to why I make this argument, but not to its soundness. That requires refutation, not discrediting.

People win lotteries every day. That doesn't mean that they're a good bet.

"I really don't see the whole scene devolving into trading punches. I think you've been watching too many television dramas."

Oh, I think it could.

If someone did say something to me, my hubby would verbally snap him back. If Mr. Boor got physical however, hubby wouldn't hesitate.

The last time that happened, buddy ended up with a cracked rib and two black eyes.

Maybe I'm married to a neanderthal, but I like it that way. I don't encourage him to fight, which is why (now) he'll always try to solve it verbally, but it is very nice to know that when push comes to shove, he can take care of both me and himself.

These things can devolve faster than you can blink, and happen more often than most people realize.

Damn right I'm bitter.

I'm sorry you're bitter. But it's not the problem of people who manage to live just fine and not make the kind of decisions that get their dicks shredded. Good luck with that.

You don't need to be a man to stand up for someone. Do the right thing because it is the right thing to do.

This isn't a gender-specific issue. Anyone can have a code of conduct that they live by, about what is and is not acceptable in their presence. When someone insults a person you care about, you speak up. It's not about the other person, it's about you and what you accept and do not accept.

Now, where are the feminists when you really need them? I'd love to hear one of them say, "She doesn't need a man to stand up for her. She can stand up for herself!"

Well Patrick, from his own description it seems like she waited at least an hour to see what he might do, before exiting asap when it was clear he wasn't going to do or say anything...useful?

LW there are 3 or four good points of information here for you.

1. What Amy said, it's over, done, you can't redeem yourself.

2. You need to clarify some stuff for yourself.
a)Who is this guy to you and where do you stand?

e.g. in the future, you know you stand up for and next to the gal you brought.

Which do you want more to continue dating quality women or douchey friend. (He will do this again and worse) he does not have your best interests anywhere in his...brain, psyche...He's really not a friend, don't mix with women you hope to have LTR w, ever!

3. Take a class, go to therapy, find every resource you can about conflict. Part of being a good partner means being exceptionally good at clarifying your boundaries, understanding your partners boundaries and each of you learning how to deal with conflict. None of us agrees with anyone all the time, let alone our partners all the time.

For next time:
From Ghost Busters "Don't Cross the Streams!!!" (it's the end of the UNIVERSE!)

You can apologize (immediately) for your friend behaving so deplorably (he doesn't get a pass just because he is often 'The Crass Guy') and then you ask her if she would like to leave and go somewhere more pleasant.

Alternately you can admonish Bad Friend "Steve, that was completely out of line. You owe Gina an apology." Also followed by leaving with her. Under NO circumstances do you wait, for her to take that lead, if she does, you blew it.

Total random thread, I think douchey friend did this on purpose, not to incite a physical confrontation but, he wanted to make you look bad in front of new girl you are dating.

New rule, she doesn't meet your friends randomly at your favorite watering hole (where he is ALWAYS likely to show up). Meet them at other places you don't normally frequent.

Now is a good time to take stock of your friends, if this guy did THIS there are prolly a couple more who would too.

Start associating with people who want to support you when good things happen to you.

I let go of a 15+ year friendship that I thought of as one of my best. Closer to her than my own sister. But when good things started happening for me, she got more and more negative, awful and never cheered for me.

Some people can only be happy for their own stuff and hate or sabotage their friends when it is finally their turn to get some GOOD.

You've "been on three dates with a gorgeous, funny, kind, and successful woman." You take her for drinks with a group of your friends, knowing "a guy in our crowd who's in the habit of saying crass things" may "show up". In other words, you set her up to be verbally assaulted by someone you know to be an asshole if he happened to wander by and feel like it.

So, when he indeed "ended up insulting her by making a rude, totally vulgar sexual remark about her", of course you were "so taken aback that I didn't say anything." Who could have seen that coming?

And then, having gotten her into that situation, you did nothing to help her. The ball was in your court. Anything she did would have only emphasized your failure to act. She did the only classy thing she could do without showing you up. She left. Had she hung around, she would have been accepting that this creep gets to keep on treating her like that and you get to keep on pretending to be surprised.

It doesn't matter who you are. If you can't find your spine with both hands, don't deliberately expose your date, grandmother, toddler, neighbor or dog to a creep. If someone does tries to bully them, you deal with it as best you can. Maybe you aren't a superhero. You can still let the person (dog, gerbil, giraffe) with you know that to the best of your ability, you have their back.

If I was dating the manliest man in the world, I was 100% sure he could take care of himself, and a friend of mine was nasty to him, I'd still speak up. I'd want to make sure he knew I wasn't on board with that behavior and didn't expect him to put up with it. If I knew we might run into someone who might be rude to him, I'd warn him in advance. I'd also explain why this person was in my life and why I tolerate that behavior myself. I'd ask him how he'd like to handle any problems that might come up and give him the option of avoiding this person. What I wouldn't do is let this person ambush him and then act surprised.

LW, you dropped the ball on this one. Doesn't mean you can't learn from it and move on. Everybody makes a mess of things sometimes.

It may indeed be too late with this woman. In her place, the only thing I'd want to hear from you right now is that you had figured out what you did wrong and were determined to change. I would *not want you to pester me or show up in person to explain that.

Eventually she might be willing to give you another chance. But don't make any more meaningless apologies, and don't contact her next week claiming to be a new person. Give it some time, some thought and some effort. If it doesn't pay off with this woman, your future dates will appreciate it. So will everyone else you care about.

" I was so taken aback that I didn't say anything."

I wonder if he was really just 'so taken aback', or if this is just an excuse for lacking a spine in a situation that he probably just wasn't accustomed to being in? Either way, he needs to learn to be prepared and respond properly in future.

Modern feminists have indoctrinated us with the false notion idea that men are not supposed to do these traditionally 'manly' things like defending women in cases like this - they preach emasculation - but that's not really what women want (nor is it what men want, ultimately). What LW needs is to spend some time and effort 'remasculinizing' himself, standing up for himself, and mentally preparing so that next time such a situation arises, he actually responds in some non-passive way.

@rm "You take her for drinks with a group of your friends, knowing "a guy in our crowd who's in the habit of saying crass things" may "show up""

This is also interesting, I wonder if these are really his (genuine) friends, if he just allows some of them treat him badly, what does that say? When this guy made rude remarks about her, he wasn't disrespecting just her (it might not even have been about her) - he was disrespecting *him* - because treating a woman badly right in front of the guy she's with is literally a way of publicly humiliating *him*, i.e. to show publicly he is weak.

I also used to lack a spine, and one thing I learned when I finally started a 'manning up' process, is that you might well lose some or even all of your friends in the process. But what I also learned is that this is a *good thing* because you don't really want people like that in your life.

I agree with NicoleK, even if just for yourself, stand up to this dude by just telling him 'that wasn't cool' - even if just to watch his reaction.

@"I agree with NicoleK, even if just for yourself, stand up to this dude by just telling him 'that wasn't cool' - even if just to watch his reaction"

Also, you'll feel better about yourself that you did actually stand up to him (even if only after), and it may inspire you to work further on spine-development.

Hi, Aly. I enjoyed reading your comments. But I only wanted to clarify that my last post was in no way to suggest that she should have stood up for herself, since she doesn't really know anyone there. I was just making a slam on feminists.

I think apologizing repeatedly can also come across as weakness just in itself. Apologizing is good, but do it in a manly way - a simple, dignified once-off 'sorry, next time I will do the right thing', and then be done with it, not all self-sorry and kowtowing, but more like 'I made a mistake, I apologized, but you don't have to be rude to me now'. If she's a reasonable person and you really will respond better next time, then it's her problem for not seeing that .. I mean a reasonable woman isn't going to drop you for making one mistake, and you don't want the kind of person who would do so. Let it go, go develop a spine, then find a woman who actually sees the potential in you.

I think Cousin Dave's comments are spot on. I worked as a bouncer..I mean security...through college and saw that scenario play out all the time. No usually the whole bar or even crew get involved in the fight. Usually it is just the two or perhaps the two plus a buddy each. Yep, you all are getting thrown out and permanently banned. May we call the cops...if it is not too violent...no one else is really affected and you both go peacefully probably not.

What I wonder about is how come they go out for drinks with his a-hole friends, after a few dates? So she can see what a jackass he is in public? She got lucky.