The subtext of Amy's response appears to read: "Be prepared for this to be a dealbreaker."

Absolutely! This is a shit test, the first of many she will deploy to see how tightly she can wrap you around her little finger.

Now lets be fair, he might be a submissive type of guy who likes his girlfriend/wife ordering him around as if she were his mommy.

$20 bucks says within a few years of him following order he has sex with his wife about as often as he does with his mother, as in never

You know, I'm going to disagree with Amy. Not because I'm anti-strip, if my husband gets invited to a bachelor party I personally would be cool with it, but this other woman isn't, and we all have things that would make us really uncomfortable. I compromised a lot when I got married, my husband did, too, and when you're serious about someone you have to decide what is more important than you.

It's not a question of "orders", it is about figuring out what makes each other comfortable and uncomfortable and working with that. Talking it through, understanding the why, and figuring out what to do. Sometimes SOs need to be humored. Sometimes not.

But a knee-jerk reaction of "She doesn't want me to so I'm gonna anyways just to show her how free I am!" feels very adolescent to me, and not very serious.

NicoleK, normally I would agree with you, but the LW isn't the groom. If he were, then, I'd say yeah, you're on target here. But the guy is going with his friends, he's NOT the groom, and his girlfriend is an insecure mess. LW, you should tell your girlfriend that jealousy is a manifestation of HER OWN insecurities, and that she needs to leave YOU out of that. He's a big boy and doesn't need restrictions. If she doesn't trust him, she shouldn't be with him.

" ... said I have to sit that out."

Really? Like the wife who "allows" his husband to take a fishing trip once a year with his army buddies?

Aw hell no. My wife is my PARTNER, not my boss.

I'm with NicoleK with one caveat...

I have a girlfriend who's husband who has worked as a strip club DJ for many years. She already has major trust issues due to her own past and being witness to his life has not helped. She's seen the girls hit on her husband, in front of her. He also had a history of drug abuse and cheating in his youth. He works at a much less seedy club now and has been clean for many years now. But, he has to go to Vegas every year for a major convention and she is a nervous wreck whenever he goes. They used to fight about it all the time but they set up some agreed upon ground rules for both of them while he's away and it has helped alleviate a lot of stress for him and nervousness for her. Over time she's learned to let go of some of her fears and he's learned to let her express her fears without simply dismissing them.

I believe the LW should talk to his girlfriend about it and see WHY she's insecure. Maybe she's had boyfriends cheat on her and they went to stip clubs all the time? Maybe there is some reason she hates strip clubs in general? Maybe she just doesn't know the LW's friends that well to know if they'd be the type to cover for him?
Or maybe she's just insecure and controlling in general? But until a conversation is had, it's all speculation. No, he's not her shrink but they are in a relationship together and they BOTH deserve at least the benefit of the doubt. She should be allowed the opportunity to voice her fears without judgement and he should be allowed the opportunity to show he can be trusted.

On the flip side, I was just at a bachelorette party, where a male stripper was hired to perform for us in the hotel room. When he arrived with his empty pizza box, a handful of girls got up and left the room because they'd made an agreement with their husbands/boyfriends that they would not be present for any stripping. They just hit the hotel bar for half an hour.

Yeah, I thought it was silly, but there's a reason I'm with a guy who doesn't care if I watch some dude dance around to R Kelly for a half hour. For whatever reason, their relationships work for them, so who am I to judge?

As for the LW, if this is something he's willing to compromise on and doesn't really care about going to the club anyway, whatever. But, based on the fact that he's writing an advice columnist, I suspect he resents his girlfriend for telling him that he can't celebrate with his friends and has to remove himself from a part of the festivities. And, if that's the case, I agree -- he needs to put his foot down and let the chips fall where they may (and break up with her if necessary).

"I compromised a lot when I got married, my husband did, too, and when you're serious about someone you have to decide what is more important than you."

Now I'm curious: can you give an example of something you used to enjoy, but don't do any more because your husband is not comfortable with it? Not being sarcastic; I'm looking for insight.

I think people with such deep-seated insecurities would probably be happier if they weren't in relationships at all. Maybe I just have this perspective because I am an introvert who likes to spend most of my time alone anyway.

But Sabrina's story, a couple of posts above? Who the hell wants to deal with that kind of anxiety and stress all the time? I simply wouldn't have a boyfriend who I was always worried about cheating on me. Maybe that would be a matter of finding a boyfriend who didn't work in a strip club. If I was insecure enough, maybe that would mean not having a boyfriend at all.

I would never entertain the idea of trying to give marching orders to a fellow adult, and wouldn't respect someone who would take them.

We all have things that we find repugnant. I hate strip clubs, and told my husband so. He used to frequent them at one point in his life (before we met), and now he doesn't.

That doesn't mean I have somehow taken away his freedom as an adult, or infantilized him in some way. I set my boundaries for what I want to deal with in my life, and he gets to decide if I'm worth that cost. (For what it's worth, I have no problem with him watching porn--it's something about the in-person aspect that I hate.) Like Dan Savage says, "There's no settling 'down' without some settling 'for'."

I get that there is a social aspect to this event--he's not a regular at a local club, so she should probably just let it go. But if it squicks her out that much, this will be a deal breaker. I agree with Fayd's take--if the LW does take Amy's advice, prepare for it to end the relationship.

Yes. I used to go to Pagan moots, which is where Pagans gather over coffee. He didn't like them. Now I don't.

Also, going places like goth clubs and sci-fi cons dressed in corsets with tons of cleavage showing. I had a need to be ogled in my misspent youth.

He can't go because she works there!

Yeah, Pirate Jo...
I used to wonder why they were together at all until I got to know them both better. On top of her incredible insecurity and anxiety... The ironic part about the whole things was she actually met him while also working at the strip club he had the drug problem at... she was a bartender though, not a stripper. She was also married and left her husband for him. Sooooo.... there's a LOT more to it than meets the eye. I think a lot of her insecurity comes from her own guilty conscience. And she was the one who helped him get clean so she saw him at his absolute worst so I can understand her concerns about him going to the convention where the booze flows freely and the naked women are not limited to the stage. He won't get another job either because the money is good and he doesn't really have any other skills that would make him as much. Basically, it's... complicated...they made their choices so they have to deal with them.

I was the maid of honor at their wedding and I honestly do believe though that the world would stop spinning if they ever split. They have a completely dependent relationship with each other. Personally, I could never be in a relationship like that. I'm also pretty independent and even though I'm married, I prefer to be alone if I'm not with my husband... but it's not MY relationship so like sofar said, who am I to judge? As messed up as their whole relationship started, it's the very opposite of messed up now. It works for them somehow... I can't explain it. After they finally learned to COMMUNICATE their issues with each other, they were like a whole new couple. I think that was my point in my story.

LW girlfriend may very well have a legitimate (to her) reason that she doesn't want LW to go to the strip club and as her partner, he at least owes her the opportunity to explain herself. She, on the other hand, owes him the opportunity to make his own decision about whether or not he wants to go after talking with her about it, and not an ultimatum. If he doesn’t go, it should be because HE doesn’t want to after talking to her and not because she demands it. Because that’s how a healthy relationship works.

> I personally would be cool with it, but this other woman isn't, and we all have things that would make us really uncomfortable

Hrm .. just speaking generally here, but I never use the word "uncomfortable" to describe my psychological state as a response to something someone else does - I think it's a 'weasel word' - it doesn't actually mean anything, it's just kind of an emotional appeal to some fuzzy notion that something has upset you, whether rational or not, usually with an implicit expectation that others must bend in some way to accommodate the claimed "discomfort" ... I expect that if someone dislikes something, they should be able to offer some sort of rational reason for being upset, in order to justify why others should bend to their wishes. I feel like if someone is using weasel words like "uncomfortable", they they're usually being irrational or controlling, or they simply lack insight into their own feelings, i.e. they may have a legitimate reason, but are unable to articulate it.

NicoleK, thanks for the input. Just so I understand it... did your husband object to you attending those activities, or did you decide to stop going because he wasn't interested in them?

The best argument for avoiding strip clubs is going to one ... I think it's good for a guy to go a few times in his life, to see what the 'fuss' is about and just to experience it, but they're also a good way to lose money fast (not good value for money), and often have lots of strict rules like no touching and no sex blah blah blah. Although admittedly I have been offered sex (for pay) by a stripper before, so I wouldn't rule it out entirely. I was single though each time I've been.

Anyway, I fully agree with Amy here.

> I compromised a lot when I got married

There are a few not-entirely-kosher things I stopped doing when I got married, but it was never a discussion, I just don't do them because it wouldn't feel right (and, my wife keeps me happy at home)

My husband managed a strip club for the first few years we were married. I never worried about him cheating, because he's not a cheater. His good friend, another manager at the same club... also not a cheater. The third manager? A cheater. Knocked up a 21-year-old cocktail waitress while he and his wife were trying (and failing) to conceive. But he would have been a cheater whether he worked at Dirty Sue's Titty Bar or Big Computer Company up the Highway. Some of the other guys who passed through there as bartenders or DJs or whatever were cheaters, too, but plenty weren't.

And, I've been a waitress in a strip club. Amy's right, most guys are there to socialize with each other. There are some regulars who spend half of their paychecks, but they're rarely actually dating any of the girls. A guy is much more likely to pick someone up at a regular bar than a strip club. A stripper will let you think she's interested in her until you're out of money, then she's on to the next table in the VIP section.

I suppose LW's girlfriend could consider getting a lap dance "cheating." I'd disagree, but some people are just like that. I agree that letting her dictate whether or not he goes to the club sets a poor precedent. And if he does allow her to dictate this, and they stay together, I hope she refrains from activities like going out dancing with her friends at pickup bars- that ground is way more fertile for cheating.

Not sure why people think a partner will cheat at a strip club.

What a stripper is doing is hustling for money and I have never read of a stripper falling in love with any client. They usually have a type, and guys who have to ask permission to go to strip clubs aren't their type.

Strippers will fuck you.....for money not out of love, or attraction. Sure they tend to be crazy & unstable for the most part but they are also incredibly materialistic and money hungry.

If your partner is going to cheat it has to be with a woman he comes in contact frequently enough to establish an emotional connection, work, friends, etc.

Or a bar, definerly a bar.

I went to Vegas last year for the first time for a friend's birthday weekend; there were about 20 us. A handful of us (not me) went to one of those warehouse-type strip clubs one night, it was a ruthlessly efficient money extraction operation. They had to leave in an hour before getting completely sucked dry. The idea that anyone there was in "danger" is laughable.

Back in the 80's, my girlfriend forbade me from going to a local strip for one of my best friend's bachelor party....
I was such a wuss for not standing up to her...
I have always regretted not "being able to go," and she didn't last more than a few months after that edict......

And by the way, "*strippers* have no interest in *me* anyway"? Dude, if you want to convince your GF she has nothing to worry about that's not the way to do it.

"The best argument for avoiding strip clubs is going to one..."

That's the dirty little secret -- for the most part, when you've seen one, you've seen 'em all. Unless you have a ton of money to blow, it ceases to be interesting pretty fast.

I have to side with Amy on this. For one thing, from the way the LW says it, his girlfriend did not say, "This makes me uncomfortable, and I wish you wouldn't do it." She laid down the law.

I'm hoping, for LW's sake, that this is a dealbreaker.

Being dominated by a shrieking harridan might have worked for Edward VIII, but for most guys, it gets old quickly.

And if she had even the tiniest permission to give orders in this relationship (which she does not), what little she has is diminished by one significant word in this letter: girlfriend. As in "not wife."

Some have suggested that he should compromise, but this is not a compromise. It's capitulation. She didn't ask. She demanded.

Would those calling for "compromise" really acquiesce if their partners started ordering them around? I hope not, for their sakes.

I view this more as a cultural thing. Some people are ok with it and others aren't. My wife was quite clear that she didn't want me going to a strip club as a bachelor party. Since I didn't really want to go to one that was an easy compromise, although some of my friends were disappointed. And one of my friends was doomed to disappointment no matter what. He wanted to fly from Houston to Vegas, party all weekend, and fly back just in time to go to work Monday. One, who is paying for that. I'm not. Also not my idea of fun.

As for why my wife doesn't like strip clubs. They make her uncomfortable. It is not a weasel word lobster. She feels uncomfortable with the whole idea. Just what the plain language says. Similar to having spiders crawl on you. It is a emotional reaction, not an intellectual one.

So while being forbidden may be a deal breaker for him, going may be a deal breaker for her.

I think anyone whose still just saying can go to strip clubs as much as their heart desires even if their mate doesn't want them to... however now that I'm married that's out of the question for my husband and I. That's just not a place I feel a married couple should be going to separately maybe together but with your friends its a no no.

Lets b real strippers will fck anything for an extra tip.

> They make her uncomfortable. It is not a weasel word lobster. She feels uncomfortable with the whole idea

Thanks, but you've just re-confirmed my point.

> It is a emotional reaction, not an intellectual one

I'm not saying we shouldn't have emotional reactions to things - of course that is normal. But one's (possibly ration or possibly irrational) emotional reaction is not a sufficient basis to demand others bend their behaviour to your desires - i.e. you aren't automatically a 'victim' in some way if someone does something that makes you "uncomfortable" .... the only way to determine if you are being reasonable or not in responding to emotional reactions by making demands of others, is to analyse it intellectually. Otherwise, yes, you're just using a weasel word.

"Lets b real strippers will fck anything for an extra tip."

Hint: if you don't give them that tip, they leave you alone. It is entirely possible to go into a strip club and walk out unmolested. That said, I'll elaborate on what I said above: most strippers are of a type, both physically and psychologically. Once you're seen a few of them, they all start to look the same.

If my wife does something that makes me "uncomfortable" (obviously it happens, we're all human) I'll go sit and analyze my feelings until I can articulate the rational basis of those feelings before making demands on her - and you know what, a significant percentage of the time I discover my emotional reaction was Just Plain Wrong, or that it was me who should have been changing my behavior in some way, rather than the other way round (this is a useful method of self-improvement). Not analyzing your own emotions, but simply assuming they constitute sufficient basis to make demands on others, is a character flaw. (There are exceptions, i.e. there are times when it may be prudent to 'just trust your gut' - e.g. if you fear for your safety in some situation, but can't articulate why - well, rather be safe than sorry. E.g. if you're a woman and the guy across from you on the bus is making you "uncomfortable", it makes sense to get off the bus and think about why later. But we're talking about a relationship here.)

She should let him go just to get it out of his system. He won't cheat. You can feel poor LW's self-respect draining even as he writes the letter - he'll never be able to respect himself if he lets her dictate this point now.

OK Lobster, in that case... we all have things that make us angry, or sad, or hurt, or feeling inadequate, or object to morally, or don't feel are appropriate.

And yes, the GF in question should do some thinking, but she's not the one who wrote in, so we can't advise her.

Yeah, but Lobster, will he be able to respect himself if the reason he absolutely HAS to go to a strip club is, "my friends' teasing will be merciless"? Because frankly, -I- don't respect him with that reasoning. I hope he's under 25... "The cool kids won't think I'm cool if I don't do this thing!" is very adolescent.

Some people consider ogling naked people, or being ogled naked by people, cheating in and of itself. It isn't the gateway to the line-crossing, it IS the line-crossing.

Like some couples don't flirt socially with other couples. Or whatever. Some people are cool with sleeping with other people. Different couples, different limits.

The important thing is that this couple establish what the appropriate boundaries are. And running off and screaming, "You can't tell me what to do!!!" and stomping your foot like a five-year-old doesn't do that.

That said, if this is a dealbreaker, if going to see strippers is an important part of his social scene, then maybe he and she are not compatible. That doesn't make one right and the other wrong, it makes them wrong -for each other-.

NicoleK > Because frankly, -I- don't respect him with that reasoning. I hope he's under 25... "The cool kids won't think I'm cool if I don't do this thing!" is very adolescent

Lol ... you're right, it sounds kind of wussy - like he feels he needs to conjure up some supposed external justification that he is merely somehow pressured to go, rather than have the balls to admit what is more likely the truth, that he probably *wants* to go (or perhaps doesn't know what he wants, but if I read between the lines I think he does).

There's nothing wrong with wanting to go, especially if he's never been before - it's natural to be curious, and it's natural for a guy to want to see titties. But once you go a couple times, I think it's something you sort of get out your system. I think he just say, "I want to go."

I have to admit there is a strip club near where I live that I kinda want to see. It is a combination RV lot/big rig repair center/strip club. I'm pretty sure afterwards I would have to pluck both my eyes out with a rusty spoon and grind the orbs into dust. But I'm still curious.

And it is like NocoleK said. If this is her line and it is important to him then maybe they aren't compatible.

I think what Lobster is trying to say but it coming across right (correct me if I'm wrong), there must be give an take on both sides. In America men give far too often and it is not health for the marriage. I've given up strip clubs among other things because they weren't that important to me. But I will not give up my home office. I do not have a 'man cave' and my room is not the garage. My wife has tried to push me out of the house as far too many men are. And that is where I put my foot down. If I'm not welcome at home I don't need to be a part of that relationship. Like I said, give and take.

it isn't coming across right...

"That said, I'll elaborate on what I said above: most strippers are of a type, both physically and psychologically"

Yup, this is exactly it. I think real women, or rather women who men come in contact with frequently hold more of an allure. But they can't pay them to take their clothes off, hence the tittie bar.

It's a bachelor party and she's not a bachelor.

She has no say in this.

I am totally on the same page with NicoleK and wondered why so many were appalled by girlfriend but did seem to mind how LW was wimpy about his friends. Ultimatums are always bad. State your needs, let the person listen and decide if your needs trump his/hers in that instance. If you are on opposing sides and feel strongly about it, it might be a deal breaker. But, compromise can occur in instances when you realize that you are not violating your integrity by alleviating another's person's discomfort. Making the same choice under the gun is a whole other thing and is toxic. And I think comfort/discomfort are legitimate words that are typically fleshed out in conversation (i.e. "really, why do you feel that way"). It is often a start and women (especially) often plumb insight THROUGH conversation and the springboard to that conversation is to mention the initial feeling. If cut off at the kneecaps simply for using a word....well, I can't see how understanding can arise when simple words are so stigmatized. People communicate, interact and learn about themselves in different ways and perhaps (Lobster) you need someone to come to you with his/her views fully realized before communicating them to you, but this could be a deal breaker to some who wants a mate with whom to share that process.

Hi ellen ..

> If cut off at the kneecaps simply for using a word

.. my whole point was indeed just to do exactly as you described: use it as a starting point for a conversation in which you can e.g. flesh out and figure out and explain why you feel a certain way. Conversation's a great way to do that. I don't expect anyone's views be 'fully realized' as not that many people are capable of complex introspective analysis of their thoughts, and it's also a time-consuming process.

My main point was just that it's not reasonable to claim that 'discomfort' ALONE is sufficient to demand others bend to one's whims ... one must be willing to concede there IS some underlying reason for the emotional response, and be willing to defend or explain it in some way. I.e. we're in agreement.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacobsullum/2013/11/04/everything-youve-heard-about-crack-and-meth-is-wrong/

"Carl Hart ... a neuropsychopharmacologist at Columbia ... has done bold, path-breaking research that challenges widely accepted beliefs about crack and meth"

"Before he became a scientist, Hart believed that people who use crack generally get hooked on it and thereby lose control of their behavior. But when he looked at the data on patterns of drug use as an academic, he could plainly see that only a small minority of people who try crack become heavy users. “Even at the peak [of] widespread use,” he writes, “only 10–20 percent of crack cocaine users became addicted.” According to the National Survey on Drug Use and Health, just 3 percent of Americans who have tried this reputedly irresistible and inescapable drug have smoked it in the last month."

"Hart’s own research with heavy crack smokers found that, in contrast with the stereotypical addict who cannot help but immediately consume whatever crack is available, they frequently rejected the drug in favor of small cash payments or vouchers"

Further references via: www.columbia.edu/cu/psychology/fac-bios/HartC/faculty.html

Oops, sorry, posted on wrong thread *blush* ..

@ellen:
> I don't expect anyone's views be 'fully realized' as not that many people are capable of complex introspective analysis of their thoughts, and it's also a time-consuming process

What I mean is, what I often do if I have such an 'emotional' reaction to something, is to go sit on my own for a while - could be anything from e.g. 20 minutes to a few hours - analyzing it until I understand why I felt that particular way. Then I can go to the other person with 'thoughts fully realized' to explain it - or sometimes, I'll realize it's me who was in the wrong.

I get that if he wants to go he should be able to go. However, if he plans to go he needed to make that clear to her before he left. At that point she can decide if his going to the strip club is a deal breaker.

Just a thought ... It's interesting that I haven't seen any comments about this guys buddies being jerks. Why can't he just say ... "guys, I'm gonna sit this one out. It's gonna hurt her and I don't want to be unkind." Would that make him a weakling or a strong and mature person? Why is it ok for his buddies to be teasing him mercilessly? Why is he so afraid of being teased? Sounds terribly childish to me.

My husband has gone to strip clubs a few times (mostly for bachelor parties) in our years together. It never really bothered me until I asked him specific questions about how they operate. He wasn't able to touch the girls (as many have noted) but the women had their hands (and breasts, and mouths) all over the guys. Not only that, they made some very specific suggestions to him about what they'd like to do to him. So he got felt up by gorgeous, enhanced women who had phone sex with him, without the phone. Most women I know would have some doubt about that. Still, I would never tell him not to do it. Only that it makes me uncomfortable. Haha. Lobster, I could certainly define uncomfortable with more detail. But do I really need to??

Can't speak for all strippers everywhere, of course, or all clubs, but when I worked as a stripper, there is no possible way that anyone was going to cheat on their partner with me, or any of the girls I worked with. Many of course were gay (big not-so-secret--lots of strippers are lesbians. Probably mainly girls who are bi, and then what they see of dudes in the clubs makes them run screaming to their own gender). All of us were making so much money just doing lap dances and "private shows" (girl-on-girl action with no contact with the blokes) that the idea of turning tricks was just ludicrous. You wouldn't make a lot more money and you'd be doing something disgusting. (Yes, some folks think dancing naked and sitting on guys' laps is disgusting, I get that. But for me,as long as they weren't allowed to touch my "bikini areas," I wasn't too grossed out.) People do things they don't want to when they are desperate. Strippers in high-end clubs are rarely desperate. Basic Econ 101.

I have never been able to comprehend what I see as a double standard concerning strip clubs and pornography.

1) It is usually acceptable for a man in a committed relationship to view nude woman, both in print and in person. When his partner objects she is viewed controlling.

2) It is rarely acceptable for a woman in a committed relationship to share her nude body, whether in print or in person, with other men. When her partner objects he is not viewed as controlling.

But, there are many double standards when it comes to men, women and sex ...

Newsflash: Bride-to-be's insecurities and personal happiness are NOT issues that can be fixed by anybody other than the unhappy party.

It should not ever become required of any person other than oneself to set ANY expectation of consistency in self-love will be found soley thru another by placing such demands is both manipulative and self-defeating. By shifting guilt from one's lack of personal happiness onto another will only result in disappointment followed by distrust.

No one is responsible for ensuring anyone's said obligation to meet, fix, and/or maintain fulfillment & happiness in life except their own.

Guys do not go to strip clubs to cheat or because they find their significant other inadequate. It's a fantasy, it's eye candy. I have only ever benefitted from him going to a strip club. He gets excited and comes home to me!