Personally I think any kind of predatory behavior in prison cries out for solitary confinement. Don’t know how else you keep the non predatory inmates and the staff safe.

Prison is very poor at reform. We should not pretend that is the goal. The goal is to keep the predators away from the prey, on the inside, and on the outside.

Sometimes you want two conflicting things and you have to pick a less than perfect course of action.

That isn't what people want to hear Isab. They would much rather be told a lie than deal with reality. Which is unfortunate.

Men suffer 95-98% of work fatalities, most of the murder victims are men, more men are retarded or autistic, and while more women attempt suicide, more men succeed (we get things done). No feminist has any interest in any of this.

Feminists are by definition people who are fighting for women's rights. There's nothing stopping men (or women) for fighting for better workplace conditions.

In fact, more often than not, feminists ARE fighting for better workplace conditions, though they wear a different hat when they do it.

The vegan prison experiment was an interesting one:

http://vegetarianspotlight.com/2011/vegan-diet-impacts-california-prison/

I think too much emphasis is given to the vegan diet in these articles, and not enough to the training, but hey, "veganism cures crime" is more sensational than "therapy cures crime"

I find your premise flawed. It generally isn't feminists and rape victim advocates mocking male rape victims. That's a bigger societal problem. Prison rape is such standard generic joke fodder... but it isn't feminists laughing about it, it's fratboys.

THANK you, NicoleK. For every single post.

I would add something that I've mentioned before, about underage teen boys (not in prison) who are raped by older women. Namely, it would help a lot if MEN would stop saying "lucky guy." While laughing.

Oh, and as David Futrelle has pointed out on his blog - not in these exact words - you can count on one hand the number of MRAs, such as a lawyer or two, who actually work to HELP men who are suffering or worse. Most of them just want to complain loudly enough to get noticed by the media.

Oh, and Isab, you made good points too.

Don't delude yourself NicoleK. Feminists fight very hard to keep men oppressed on exactly these issues. They definitely do mock male rape victims while at the same time denying they exist. As you say they care about women and only women. Many hate men with a passion. It doesn't take much effort to notice that.

Lenona, it is called the white knight syndrome. Unless you are gay you aren't going to be white knighting for men.

I don't follow. "White knight" is an insult used by MRAs. Why would they want to ACT like white knights?

Yes Lenona the MRAs insult the white knight types. Doesn't mean they came up with the term. Many men instinctively want to support women. That gender dynamic was key to many legislative victories for women's issues. The opposite does not exist. That is why you do see male lawyers as well as female ones helping disadvantaged women but you don't see either group helping disadvantaged men in the same way. Biology just isn't wired that way.

To put it another way, an MRA likely doesn't care much about men other than himself or his tiny circle of real-life friends and family, other than chattering about the subject.

Example: some MRAs love to talk, gleefully, over and over, about how the patriarchy will roar back to power once Vasalgel becomes widely available in the U.S., but very few of them promise to use it themselves; they just want to see OTHER men using it.

Since married/LTR men will continue to trust their wives, and single men will still be under pressure to use condoms, it's hard to imagine that there will be much of a social difference. Btw, if feminists didn't want men to be able to control their own fertility, they'd already have tried to enact legislation against single men seeking vasectomies, decades ago. (Amy agrees with that.) In the meantime, while Warren Farrell complained, in his book Father and Child Reunion, that MARRIED men can't get vasectomies without their wives' acknowledgement, even HE didn't try to argue that married women have it any easier when they want secret operations. So it's not just male patients. Doctors just don't want to get sued, period.

And the average man likely isn't wired to kill strangers who didn't even attack him first, but he can join the military and train himself to do so, out of "love for his country." What's the difference, if you want to save the lives of your fellow civilians?

You dream that MRA activists are far more influential than they really are. Same as your concern with the Amish or purity balls. This is why you really need to learn some statistics. You think 0.001% are horribly significant and 95% are just a rounding error.

"Namely, it would help a lot if MEN would stop saying "lucky guy." While laughing."

Why do you deny the obvious and ancient difference in societal costs here? Amy has certainly pointed it out a lot: the genders are wholly different.

A woman who is promiscuous is roundly condemned for it because of the lasting perception that because she is indiscriminate in selecting sexual partners, she cannot be counted upon to be faithful.

(I do not subscribe to this idea, having noted that Traci Lords, to cite an extreme example, has dedicated her life to her family after the most notorious life in porn production there is. I chuckle - she is more qualified to select the right guy to marry than any other person on Earth due to her experience.)

Anyway. That this is also true of men does not dispose of the plain fact that men actively seek women who will have their child, not just one of one of a hundred partners - and women will actively seek the best provider they can.

In those cases where a child is not expected or desired, the stigma of simply having had sex is wholly unwarranted, a relic of days when we thought that faithfulness was more desirable than merely getting your rocks off. This argues more for disposing of the idea that consensual sex, however mistaken one or both parties may be in engaging in it, is not fatal or even a permanent stain -- although families often do everything they can to tell the world their relative is permanently soiled.

That is another area calling out for real data. Do men still say 'lucky guy' like they did 50 or 100 years ago? If things had changed would Lenona know?

If this conversation is based on what you or I 'feel' or 'imagine' it is worthless.

No, I didn't say *feminists* don't care, I said *feminism* is about women's rights. A feminist who wants to help coal miners get safer conditions will do that at a worker's rights meeting, not at a feminist meeting. Unless there was a specific issue around female coal miners.

People who are activists usually wear more than one hat.

It would be absurd to say that a coal miner's meeting should bring up safe access to abortion and start centering that... unless for some reason being coal miners meant that they needed more abortions or something.

Yet for some reason, women's groups are expected to cater to every issue under the sun.

But it's very likely that someone would be at both the coal miner and the feminist meetings.

And Ben, I'd like to see where you're getting the information that feminists are fighting for prison rape, and against male shelters.

Feminists absolutely will fight to keep men out of women's rape shelters... see what Vancouver Rape Relief had to go through... but I've never heard of anyone saying there shouldn't be resources for male victims of crime.

Here you go NicoleK. Literally took me less than 5 minutes to find an example. If you aren't aware you aren't even trying to look.

https://archive.fo/Rk9Vz

Rad, my obvious point was that if men want society to take female-on-male sexual violence seriously, they have to learn to be verbally consistent, even in private. Even if that means giving up yet another type of humor. (After all, most white people - I hope - have learned that it's just not civilized to tell racist jokes, even when the only people listening are their best white friends.)

Since men have never been very loud - if at all loud - in their demand for female predators of TEEN boys to go to prison, I say it's safe to assume they're still snickering about such rapes. (At the same time, plenty of men complain loudly that statutory rape laws even exist - when the victim is female, that is. Clearly, that's not the sort of consistency a civilized society wants.)

In the same vein, if men want fathers' rights to be taken seriously, they can't keep demanding the right to abandon their out-of-wedlock children just because they never wanted them. After all, any man could make that claim, true or false. Plus, it wouldn't be long before married men would start to claim they never wanted their in-wedlock children. (Much in the same way that a century ago, married men could abandon their families without much fear of the law, if any.)

Btw, I heard recently of a law that, if true, is seriously flawed, whether it's a common one or not.

Quote:

"...There is a 'best interest of the child' standard, not a 'fairness to the adult' standard. Sometimes that results in a court order that's contrary to justice.

"The non-paternal adult who might be ordered to pay child support isn't necessarily a man, but he usually is.

"The situation might arise thusly: A woman with a young child moves into the home of her boyfriend. While the two adults are a couple, the man has no custody of the child and doesn't intend to adopt. However, the man may pay some or all of the child's living expenses during that time. There have been cases in which child support has been ordered after the two adults end their relationship and she and the child move out.

"The man may very well have a prior child-support obligation from a previous marriage. That means he won't have enough money left to support his own natural children plus a child he briefly supported but never had custody of."

(end)

Once again Lenona you present no evidence. Instead you base your argument on your own imagination.

It's called logic. You don't need to be a lawyer to have that.

Even MRAs don't demand that female predators be locked up, most of the time. They only complain that male predators are more likely to go to jail - and/or argue that girls who probably aren't even in high school yet should be sued for allegedly lying about their ages. (That suggestion was made at THIS blog.)

For the record, though, with regard to abandonment "rights," Katha Pollitt was one columnist sharp enough to point out (in 1998) that any man could argue there was contraceptive "fraud" when there was none, so allowing such arguments could mean the end of child support for out-of-wedlock children. Offhand, I haven't seen any other columnist point that out - believe me, I've searched plenty on that subject in the last twenty years or so - but logically, it looks as though judges, lawyers, and the public managed to figure that out for themselves, since there don't seem to have been any such cases where the man won.

Ugh. THOSE people.

They're the worst.

Right, logic ... based on absolutely no facts. So with absolutely no evidence you sanctimoniously declare you are right based on your feelings. Well, don't be surprised that Lenona's random emotions aren't persuasive.

Perceptions. Not feelings. (I know feelings aren't "facts," thank you.) When no one has even seen a unicorn fossil, it's logical to assume it never existed.

As I said, I've searched plenty.

And it only took a century or so for Westerners to determine that the coelacanth was alive and well. Had they known, before the 19th century, that it ever existed - and which ocean to search in - they just might have found it earlier.

Sophistry not perceptions.

Your argument is this:
Claim: MRA groups don't demand female predators be locked up as much as Lenona wants them to.
Deduction 1: Men living in the US in general don't take female predators seriously and regularly make jokes about them.
Deduction 2: Men in the US are hypocrites.

This isn't a logical argument Lenona. It is just your feelings. Give me some facts, data, numbers. Some thing, anything real! All you've presented is your own personal fantasy.