I'm Knot With The Band
I'm 28 and my boyfriend of five years is 29. I'm ready to get married, and he's flat-out not, but wants us to stay together. Our maturity levels vary greatly. I'm getting my Ph.D. while working full time. He has a job, but can't save or manage money and just wants to play in his bands, and stay out and party. He's very affectionate and constantly tells me he loves me, but regarding getting married, he always says things like, "It'll be our turn one day," or says he'll propose by the end of X month, but never does. I'm in therapy over this, but he refuses to come. In general, he can't articulate himself in an argument and often refuses to discuss unpleasant topics (money, bills, or emotional issues). Everyone around us is getting married, and in our society, there are articles and websites that say a man's proposal is the ultimate way of showing his devotion and love. I try to remember that my value comes from within, but I need to know that the man I love wants me that much, and forever.
--Waiting
It's hard to compete with all those girls showing off that princess-cut diamond in a platinum setting when all you have to show for your relationship is the ring your boyfriend's pint glass leaves on the table in a dive bar setting.
Everything you say about the guy screams that the only aisle he'll be walking down anytime soon is one with a big sale on Tostitos or beer. This doesn't make him a bad person -- just a bad person to be hitting up for a marriage proposal. Sure, in the name of love and conflict avoidance, he'll pluck a month off the calendar for the big day, or tell you "Our day will come!" and maybe even believes it in the moment. But, let's get real. Distant consequences don't exactly play a part in his decision-making, and his idea of planning for the future probably involves remembering to get to the payday loan place so he can get his guitar out of hock before the weekend.
Women in your position ask themselves (and some strange lady on the bus, and anybody who'll listen), "If he loves me, why won't he marry me?!" It isn't always that simple for men. Studies by sociologist Pamela Smock and others suggest that men's readiness to marry is often tied to whether they feel financially stable and successful in their careers. Careers? Your boyfriend doesn't have one, let alone $20 to carry him through the weekend. Still, he clearly isn't commitment averse. He's been committed to you for five years; he's just squeamish about signing a contract to drive you to Bingo when you're 90.
Yes, getting married is supposed to be the ultimate way of showing love and devotion, and maybe that's why so many people do it four times. You need to ask yourself: Are you more in love with the guy or the idea of marrying the guy? Whatever you do, quit trying to drag him to therapy. He isn't mentally ill. He doesn't even sound troubled. Okay, so he can't hang onto a dollar or have adult conversations about uncomfortable subjects, but he seems to love you and want to be with you. And maybe he can, if only you can accept him for who he is -- a guy who might eventually pop the question, but it'll probably be something along the lines of would you like another round, and if so, can he "borrow" $8.
I've always said that you would be out of business if people realized this one fundamental truth: you can't make anyone do anything.
How do I make him marry me? she asks...not in so many words, but it's loud and clear.
You don't. Even if you could coerce him into something he doesn't want, it will ultimately end badly. He has his reasons for not wanting to walk down the aisle. But that is not her obstacle to overcome. Hers is to decide whether she can live with it or not. If not, then clear out.
Patrick at October 20, 2010 1:15 AM
Everyone around us is getting married, and in our society, there are articles and websites that say a man's proposal is the ultimate way of showing his devotion and love.
Who needs Ipecac when you have this sentence handy to induce vomiting? Just blech. I love how she sounds all rational in the beginning, but it's obviously an act as she trots out this bullshit. Seriously? "There are articles and websites" and "in our society?" Like being able to cite her sources makes the "everyone else is getting married and I want to, too, but I won't sound like a modern woman if I say it flat out" part of her letter more reasonable.
I try to remember that my value comes from within, but
No! No but! Your values do come from within, and a big part of that is how you internalize what you think "society" deems appropriate. Amy's spot on here: do you want to marry him or do you want to just be married? It's a vital distinction.
LW, you don't need to apologize for wanting to get married, provided you know your motivations, which is my usual caveat in this situation. Actually, all situations. Stop couching your desire for marriage in this pseudopsychological frame. If you really do want to marry him, specifically, and you think he isn't able to give you what you want, then he isn't for you. But be warned that the guy you date later that does want to get married might not be for you, either. The "wants to get married" facet of a person is not enough to sustain a marriage.
NumberSix at October 20, 2010 1:27 AM
So a mans PROPOSAL is the ultiamate expression of love? I wonder why Tigers wife left him, after all she got the proposal?
Anyway I thought the ultimate expression of love was removing the restraints so your partner could use the bathroom
lujlp at October 20, 2010 2:27 AM
I think this one is a no-brainer, but since it's not my brain that has to say no, I understand the difficulty.
Saying that, I think the LW has two people in her life she needs to fire: her boyfriend and her therapist. I don't know if her therapist is helping her to see that she's chasing after the wrong dream (or the wrong man for that dream), but if he/she isn't, then she's wasting her money.
When I was in my 20s, I lived a very boho existence and dated musicians, poets and artists. Men who usually, although not always, were not good with money or planning or seeing past the end of the next weekend. I knew that, however, and accepted that this was a period of experimentation in my own life, so I forgot all about committments, kicked up my heels and enjoyed myself.
The LW isn't in the same place and being chronically dissatisfied with a situation is a symptom. In this case, I'd say it's a symptom that is screaming at her, and maybe she needs to get her hearing checked.
Either the LW learns to love the uncertainty (not likely from what I see) or, she moves on.
I was very lucky in my 20s. For a few years I had a boss who was involved with a married man. He'd been promising her for years that he was going to leave his wife, but since they had a disabled child together, he was waiting until, oh, I dunno, whatever.
My boss stayed with him for 22 years. She was in her late 40s when she finally left him. I saw about three years of this while I was working for her and I swear this made me understand the phrase "He's just not into you" years before it became popular. I owe that woman a debt of gratitude--she taught me a lesson I don't think I could have learned any other way and that's if you get strung along, you really don't have anyone to blame but yourself.
ie at October 20, 2010 4:36 AM
If LW wants marriage and kids, she doesn't have eternity to get those things. Doesn't sound like BF wants those things with her. She should cut her losses and move on.
NicoleK at October 20, 2010 5:23 AM
If the letterwriter wants to get married, she must go find a man who wants to marry her. This one does not, or else he would marry her.
Spartee at October 20, 2010 5:33 AM
being chronically dissatisfied with a situation is a symptom
Yeah, a symptom of someone who will always find something to complain about. Of course, she might just pick people who give her an excuse for her own behaviour and this really has nothing to do with him. If she were good marriage material herself, why is she with this guy who obviously isn't a good prospect for the kind of life she seems to envision for herself?
That said, it's painfully obvious here that she, in her late 20s, is getting itchy for marriage (and probably babies) and this guy is obviously not the one to do that with. For someone so lacking in self-awareness and so ridiculous sounding (as NumberSix pointed out) I'd have to feel sorry for any guy foolish enough to get hitched with her at this point and maybe her bf is doing everyone a favour by keeping her off the market.
She sounds like the Oprah generation, all full of new age flaky "therapy" crap. She's in therapy for this? I'm sorry, but don't make me LOL. Good Lord. Just goes to show that a Ph.D. does not equal intelligence. She sells herself as mature but is so obviously not - if she was, she wouldn't be dating someone so immature. She has the trappings of maturity (the job, the studying, etc.) but not the actual maturity.
Thag Jones at October 20, 2010 5:46 AM
And marriage to her is just another trapping of adulthood. She has yet to reach actual adulthood though; there's more to it than what you have to show "society" and keeping up with the Joneses (her friends with their rings and such).
Thag Jones at October 20, 2010 5:50 AM
In a weird way, I agree with you Thag. Maybe the real questions for her are "Do I really want a marriage? and "Why am I wanting to conform with everyone else?" If she has a good therapist, he/she will get her to see this.
Getting a Ph.D (or any graduate degree) usually ends up resulting people suffering from the syndrome of not being able to see the forest for the trees. LW probably has her nose so pressed up against this problem she can't see it for what it is, whatever it is.
ie at October 20, 2010 6:36 AM
Honey, you do NOT want to marry him! It would be like marrying a child. He's not ready, he knows it (good for him) and you need to move on. When you start your career, you will meet lots of interesting, more mature mentally men.
Lots of people want to be married. I'm not sure she needs counseling to find out why she wants to be. Pledging your life to another, starting a home and family, working towards goals together, it's a normal step. Not one everyone should take, granted, but there's nothing wrong with her for wanting that as opposed to hangin' out in bars all the time. And if she wants kids, she's got about 7 more years to do it without the very real possibility of needing help, or not being able to do it at all. We forget that just because we hear stories of really older women having babies with help, the fact is most people who wait too long won't have them even with help, and fertility drops rapidly in the mid 30's.
momof4 at October 20, 2010 6:42 AM
What's in it for you? Is he a project? Are you going to change him into the man you want him to be? Good luck!
If he were dsating your best friend would you say "That's a great guy. You should marry him."
Doubtful!
David M. at October 20, 2010 7:08 AM
The guys knows that she is the kind of woman who will never be satisfied, so he just tunes her out. If he was actually stupid enought to marry her, she would be SO disappointed because nothing changes after the wedding. He's still going to be the same guy. Then she will push for a divorce, thus proving to herself and everyone else that she's one of those women who can't commit.
He seems like a nice enough guy, but he is who he is, and she can't accept that. She will have to dump him and cut her losses (it doesn't say how long she's been with him), and then figure out who she is and what she wants from a guy and a relationship. That sounds like it will be too much work for her though, so she'll probably continue to try to change him and complain to anyone who will listen.
Chrissy at October 20, 2010 7:29 AM
or says he'll propose by the end of X month, but never does. I'm in therapy over this, but he refuses to come.
This worries me. Firstly, who asks for a proposal? Secondly, therapy? Before you're married? I'm sorry, god knows I've fucked up in parts of my life, but if you feel you need couples counselling before you're even married, then give it away.
In general, he can't articulate himself in an argument and often refuses to discuss unpleasant topics (money, bills, or emotional issues).
Ok, I sympathise with this LW, I've been that guy. Possibly, depending who you talk to, still am.
there are articles and websites that say a man's proposal is the ultimate way of showing his devotion and love. I try to remember that my value comes from within, but I need to know that the man I love wants me that much, and forever.
Someone bring me a bucket. I read a website that said that's the best solution for sudden nausea.
I'm 28 and my boyfriend of five years is 29.
You've got plenty of time to find someone else then. If you have to convince someone to marry you, is it really worth it? Just walk and you'll find out that he can actually live without you (but don't fall for the booty calls, he'll say he misses you but still won't really want to marry you). Go find someone who wants the same thing you do. I was just like your boyfriend except I know now I don't want to get married and say so up front. But if you want to be fooled by "maybe one day", I'm 37 but look 30 and could string you along for a few more years. I've done it before, to my regret.
Ltw at October 20, 2010 7:32 AM
Doesn't everyone want to marry a partier that can't manage money? They make great partners in life. So stress-free and dependable. Of all the people in the world, this is obviously the best choice for someone that wants to settle down and have a stable and satisfying relationship. Obviously, the woman is much smarter than the rest of us. Her therapist tells her so.
She sounds like a piece of work. I feel sorry for the guy.
LauraGr at October 20, 2010 7:35 AM
Let's see, I had to have papers translated, convince two families, satisfy the Japanese Government, the US Government, the Marine Corps and the Catholic Church. It was no problem, because she was, and is, the one. Disbelievers in ones or deities, keep your own counsel.
The point is, if he wants to, he will, no matter what obstacles intervene. He doesn't, hasn't, and won't. The number of synonyms (read excuses) for "I don't want to" is infinite. You will never hear them all, mainly because you won't live long enough. You will never hear "I do."
MarkD at October 20, 2010 7:37 AM
Sounds like the LW has a bad case of the "sunk costs"... "I have invested 5 years in this relationship and all I have to show for it is this stupid T-shirt." I don't think it is wrong to be want to be married and yes, it is the norm in this society. What is wrong here, is her decision that it has to be THIS guy.
LW I am very sorry to say this, but he is just not that into you. If he wanted to marry you, he would have. At this point, you need to get yourself free of this relationship and spend some time thinking about what you really want and need in your life. Don't just run out to the bar with your left ring finger extended waiting to hook the first male that passes by. Really assess your life and make a thoughtful decision. It may take sometime before you meet your match, but you will be glad you waited and then you will finally have someone who WANTS that life with you.
sheepmommy at October 20, 2010 7:39 AM
Clearly, the solution here is for her to unexpectedly, get pregnant. A child will solve all the issues in her, er, their lives.
BTW, I don't know why people are bagging on the guy. He sounds like he is being as straightforward as you can expect from a person who is (it apppears) getting nagged about an honest answer he gave.
Spartee at October 20, 2010 7:41 AM
Who needs Ipecac when you have this sentence handy to induce vomiting? Just blech. I love how she sounds all rational in the beginning, but it's obviously an act as she trots out this bullshit. Seriously?
I hadn't read this when I wrote my response. Nice, NumberSix. I'm glad I'm not the only one who had to suppress the bile in my throat at that sentence. Although I think the therapy angle rang alarm bells for me before that.
Ltw at October 20, 2010 7:43 AM
Clearly, the solution here is for her to unexpectedly, get pregnant. A child will solve all the issues in her, er, their lives.
Spartee, I had an ex-gf tell my at the time current gf (yes this is complicated) to do exactly that - lie about being on the pill and get pregnant. Fortunately gf at the time has worse commitment issues than me and declined to take that advice.
issues in her, er, their lives
And I had to repeat that because it's gold :)
Ltw at October 20, 2010 8:01 AM
I was told, when I was much younger, to choose my husband based on the 3 Ps. Gramma was a savvy old broad and it might not be totally correct but the answers to these three questions speak volumes.
Will he be a good Partner?
Will he be a good Provider?
Will he be a good Parent?
I can provide for myself, thankyouverymuch. But having stable resources and similar goals (on both sides) makes for a better foundation of any marriage. Or at least I would hope so.
It works both ways. Guys going with women that are smokin' hot but shrieking harpies should have a care, too.
LauraGr at October 20, 2010 8:04 AM
Ah, yeah. You all have got this one nailed, the only thing I will as is that I've been both in the band and a band wife. I prefer being in the band. Neither the LW nor her boyfriend are ready for marriage. Not even close.
Flynne at October 20, 2010 8:12 AM
Okay, Okay everyone- this is LW speaking. You are all correct in wanting to vomit at that last part. It sounds beyond ridiculous, but Amy's staff shortened my letter a bit, which in turn omitted a few things. What I meant to say was that I have often googled the topic in an attempt to find information to try and make myself feel better about this. He has severe ADHD and exhibits symptoms that parallel textbook explanations on much of his behavior. A fear of committment is one of those factors. Being scattered about managing money is another. But I digress- it's just an excuse at this point. I do have reason to believe you are all right- it's a very basic problem. If he wanted to marry me, he would. He hasn't asked, so he must not want to that badly. I know the idea of marriage scares the hell out of him. He is not a bad guy- he is a great guy. He has a good, steady job that he is extremely dedicated to and loves his music. He is very loving toward me and I know that should be enough but after 5 years, it just isn't anymore. I have outgrown the relationship as it is and he has not, and I have grown tired of living solely on his terms with no compromise from him on the subject. I want a husband, not a live-in boyfriend and a pseudo-marriage. I love him tremendously and have always held onto hope that one day soon he would be ready, but my intuition tells me he isn't going to be for some time. Maybe it's me. Maybe it's him. It doesn't really matter. It makes me feel sick and it does mess with my sense of self-worth (no matter if you guys think it's ridiculous or not, it does). I feel like there is something innately wrong with me that he doesn't ask, even though it may sound juvenile. It's just so, so hard to make up my mind on what to do about this. I know many of you are thinking- get the fuck over it and leave. But it's a lot harder than than it sounds. So that's that I guess.
LW at October 20, 2010 8:46 AM
Why should the guy buy a cow when he can get free milk?
It sounds like he's a whole lot smarter than she is -- even with her vaunted PhD.
And she's paying a gazillion dollars to a 'therapist' over this? What a ditz!
jay-w at October 20, 2010 8:48 AM
LW, whatever you do, don't give him an ultimatum. He may very well propose. Then you'll either marry someone who's poor with money and not that into you or be his fiance for the next five years, writing to Amy about why he won't set a wedding date.
The only problem I have with this guy is that he keeps saying he will propose when he clearly doesn't intend to, just to shut her up, I imagine.
I'm assuming she wants children, since if she believes "society and websites" about marriage being the key to happiness, she probably also believed that children will complete her. Being broke all the time, bitter about money and resentful that he isn't pulling his weight is no way to go through life.
Thag is correct: She has all the trapping of adulthood but not the actual adulthood. Being an adult means looking at your world with both eyes open and adjusting your behavior accordingly.
MonicaP at October 20, 2010 8:52 AM
Brava! LW, for your comment. You both sound like lovely people, although perhaps not perfect for each other. I get that you feel rejected, but the longer you live with it, the more it will fester and hurt. Cut it off when you feel strong enough - then you'll feel stronger than ever.
Paris Dakar at October 20, 2010 9:00 AM
Thanks for responding, LW.
I know that should be enough
Why should it be enough? If it isn't enough, it isn't enough, and that's OK.
I have grown tired of living solely on his terms with no compromise from him on the subject
There's no compromise possible here. Either you are married or you're not. Not all problems can be solved with give and take.
I feel like there is something innately wrong with me that he doesn't ask
The only thing wrong with you is that you want to be married to a man who doesn't want to marry you.
I'm not downplaying how painful this decision is. Clearly, you love him. But you want a life he doesn't. When you're in the middle of a situation like this, it's difficult to see that there are a number of men you could love just as much and still have the life you want.
MonicaP at October 20, 2010 9:00 AM
@jay-w: How about some compassion instead of juvenile name-calling?
Paris Dakar at October 20, 2010 9:02 AM
You know, LW, that woman I described in my post, the one who stayed with a Mr. Wonderful for 22 years who was wonderful but had a wife, kid with disabilities, etc.? Well, when I had time to daydream at work, I had the fantasy of counselling her to move to another city, start her life over without HIM, but WITH the excitement of living in a new place. People tend to knock geographical cures, but in her case, she was so hooked--her face melted everytime he came into work (Yup, they worked together) that I thought only a surgical extraction of sorts was going to work.
I had this idea because she would often list the reasons why her staying with him was sorta, kinda, you-know, OKAY, kinda like he has ADHD, a fear of committment, is scattered about money, yadda, yadda, yadda.
You don't hear yourself rationalizing because people in love go deaf in times like this.
It IS hard, and getting all this criticism can't be easy, but one practical thing you could do would be to think of sometime special that would help you move on. I took a geographical cure when I was in a relationship when I found myself in one of those "we can't live with each other, and can't live without each other" kind of relationships.
It felt like I was ripping my heart out and I cried all the way (to my new city) in the cab of this truck containing all my worldly goods, but you know what? Two weeks after arriving, I felt like a new person. I put an embargo on contact which helped a lot and six months later, I was able to sit down and have lunch with guy like nothing difficult had ever passed between us. (It was different for him, however that's another story. He didn't like that I'd taken the initiative to solve our relationship issues, so to speak.)
Anyway...you need to help yourself find a way out, is what I'm saying.
ie at October 20, 2010 9:17 AM
"... How about some compassion instead of juvenile name-calling? ..."
Because she doesn't need 'compassion.' She needs tough love. She needs somebody to throw a bucket of cold water in her face and to tell her to act her age. She's 28 years old, and she's acting like she has an emotional age of about 14. ... still waiting for Prince Charming to get down on bended knee and carry her off to the chapel in the moonlight.
What earthly reason would a guy have for getting married if he can get the benefits of marriage without subjecting himself to the (very considerable) liabilities?
jay-w at October 20, 2010 9:21 AM
What earthly reason would a guy have for getting married if he can get the benefits of marriage without subjecting himself to the (very considerable) liabilities?
Because he wants to live a married life and make a public commitment to being with her for the rest of their lives, as well as enjoying the legal perks that come with being married.
My husband and I lived together for a year and a half before we married. With sex before marriage no longer being something that will get a woman cast out into the cold, dark streets, people marry for many reasons. He could have continued to get the milk for free, but he wanted to be married. (And he's still getting the milk for free, since I have a job and support myself.) This guy doesn't want to be married. I doubt he would change his mind if she stopped putting out.
MonicaP at October 20, 2010 9:36 AM
It's always good for us to hear from the LW directly - it makes us realise this is a real person's life we're talking about and maybe curbs our cynicism. So thanks for responding.
I have grown tired of living solely on his terms with no compromise from him on the subject. I want a husband, not a live-in boyfriend and a pseudo-marriage. I love him tremendously and have always held onto hope that one day soon he would be ready
Oh boy, you so need to talk to my ex. Or maybe you sound like her talking to me perhaps. She held onto that hope for three years longer than you. And no, I'm not proud of that. I had to end it because although we so obviously wanted different things, she couldn't let go (that sounds much more noble than it was - believe me, I was the bad guy in this situation). We're still friends and always will be, but I still hurt her bad.
He is very loving toward me and I know that should be enough but after 5 years, it just isn't anymore.
So was I. It wasn't enough either. Good luck - I mean that.
Ltw at October 20, 2010 9:36 AM
I took a geographical cure when I was in a relationship when I found myself in one of those "we can't live with each other, and can't live without each other" kind of relationships.
ie, I love your stories. I did something similar once. It was twelve years ago but hasn't quite shaken out yet. We live in hope.
Ltw at October 20, 2010 9:52 AM
Thanks Ltw. I think it's important too for the LW to know that although she's getting pelted with a lot of tough love and criticism, there are others out there who have been through the same thing. I was too embarassed at the time to admit to people my "real" reason for moving--that I was running away from love gone BAD--so I just told people I came for a French immersion course, loved it and decided to stay (which is half-true). And then, of course, I had that boss who was a living cautionary tale.
I have to say, however, that my ex-boyfriend took my move badly and tried to get me into trouble with my thesis advisor (I was a grad student too). Strangely enough though, his bad behaviour after the fact made it easier for me to move on. I guess it made me see the fundamental dysfunction in the relationship: it wasn't healthy for either of us.
PS-I apologize for the typos in my last post. I'm operating on 2 hours sleep.
ie at October 20, 2010 10:23 AM
I'm guessing he won't pop the question because he feels inferior. She is getting a PhD. He is getting Popcorn. He stuck around for five years. He does love her, but he doesn't want to be a "househusband". It's no different than what he is now, but just being a "boyfriend" creates enough of an illusion for him.
He's not all "innocent" in this nor is she "guilty". She wants to marry him, so she is not bothered by his lesser status. (For now?) She may want to try encouraging him to pursue Something. Don't nag him into a job but support him in some endeavor that would improve his lot. When he has self-confidence and self-respect, maybe then he'll get the ring. If he doesn't, then she should move on.
hadsil at October 20, 2010 10:35 AM
LW I think that you should try to understand the role that your social environment may be playing in all this. I'm not that much older than you are and have seen the phenomenon you're describing play out in a couple of social groups. Everyone seems to be getting married, and it creates a sense of urgency among the single women and unmarried couples in the group. But I've also seen the consequences, when couples marry because they feel that they should, that it's the next step to whatever. Many of them end up divorced in a few years. If you're questioning your worth now, try being dumped on the market in your late 30's.
Honestly it sounds as though there's something else going on with you, if you need therapy and feel so down on yourself over this. Your boyfriend's behavior really isn't unusual, considering his age. It's strange that you're reacting so severely. Have you always felt this way about marriage, or is this something that's come about recently?
polo at October 20, 2010 11:23 AM
LW, you know you have to end this. You don't want to... but you know you have to. This relationship is not good for you. You do not share the same goals, lifestyle, dreams, etc. He does not want what you want.
And if he did want to get married... frankly, an ADHD guy who can't manage money doesn't sound like much of a catch. It's nice to be the girl who stands by her man and is supportive and kind and all that... but that's a babysitter, not a wife. He shouldn't be getting married, he doesn't have his shit together. Lots of women feel guilty for abandoning boyfriends in their hour of need and all that... get over it. He's not husband material.
Find someone in your PhD program, or a nice postdoc or something. Or at a hobby. Someone grown up.
NicoleK at October 20, 2010 11:23 AM
The LW sounds *exactly* like one of my relatives, who is extremely intelligent and hard-working. (She has an MD degree for gosh sakes!)
She (my relative) is a nice person, highly respected professionally, etc., etc.... and a TOTAL IDIOT where men are concerned. She is now in her late thirties, and for the past ten years, she has allowed a succession of live-in boyfriends to walk all over her and exploit her financially as well.
I wish I knew what you can say to somebody like that to slap some sense into her.
jay-w at October 20, 2010 12:25 PM
That's a good answer to why a man would marry. And if you invert everything in it, you have precisely the reason why LW's boyfriend won't.
Someone suggested he feels inferior. Possible, but unlikely. He's got it made in the shade and has no obligations whatsoever. Why upset the apple cart?
There are some men who simply aren't into marriage. They'll have long-term relationships, create kids, and then one day walk away because something new and shiny flipped its hair at him.
Any relationship where the two parties have not discussed long-term goals (or lack thereof) is doomed. Men will lie about wanting marriage just to keep the sex coming. It's up to the woman to detect the dishonesty (which is hard when she's blinded by love) and muster up the courage to walk away and find a man who more closely shares her goals.
brian at October 20, 2010 12:51 PM
Has anyone considered that the BF may have good reason for not wanting to marry her? The LW has painted her BF as a lazy immature mental defective. But she's the one in therapy, and acknowledges that her desire to marry arises from social pressure, and whatever random advice she's picking up from 'articles and websites'.
Is it so surprising that he doesn't want to argue with her, and that he tells her what she wants to hear? Can you imagine what it must be like for him to deal with her when she's obsessing about this? She rendition of the situation is totally one sided and demeaning to her BF. Maybe he knows something about her that we don't.
nick at October 20, 2010 1:20 PM
Nick's got a point. Her whole argument seems to be that because he's a loser, and she's better than he is, that he should want to marry her. I don't think that I'd go for that proposition either.
stephK at October 20, 2010 1:23 PM
Hello, it's LW speaking again. I wanted to thank everyone for the broad spectrum of perspectives. It's actually really interesting to hear (read?) what people really think about all of this, including those of you who believe me to be a moron. I just wanted to clarify a point to generate a few more comments-
"The LW has painted her BF as a lazy immature mental defective. But she's the one in therapy, and acknowledges that her desire to marry arises from social pressure, and whatever random advice she's picking up from 'articles and websites."
My BF is not a lazy, immature mental defective. He is a wonderful person and we are EXTREMELY close. The issue is that the gap between our sets of priorites is widening into a gulf. My desire to marry does not just derive from social pressure. I want to marry him because I love and adore him and want a life with him. Being surrounded constantly by weddings just picks at the issue every time I try to put it out of my mind. It's apparently frustrating when he makes an empty promise about when an engagement may happen and then just lets it lapse without a whisper. He often states "why can't we just live?" but I find the uncertainty of the premise excruciating, especially after this long. I did not mean to paint him entirely negatively. I just wish I really knew what was going on inside his head, i.e. his real intentions so that I could make an educated decision about all of this. He has stated before, more than once that he loves me and wants to marry me and where it would be and where we should live- all the way down to our children's names. But it never comes. It's easy to just say things.
I have stated to him in the past that if he does not want to marry me that perhaps we should discontinue our relationship but he obviously never wants to break up. I only went to a few therapy appointments because I was so painfully desperate to discuss this in a professional setting- was I crazy or hypersensitive or correct or ridiculous? I am no longer going because as many of you have pointed out, it isn't really necessary.
In any event, this forum has been very helpful and useful. Thank you again.
LW at October 20, 2010 1:49 PM
I think he has made his intentions clear. He wants to be with you, just not marry you. He may even have vague notions of marrying you at some point, but that point may never come, and certainly won't come in a time frame you are happy with.
I want to marry him because I love and adore him and want a life with him.
You have a life with him. More specifically, you want the things that come with a married life and a promise that your relationship will never end.
MonicaP at October 20, 2010 1:56 PM
LW, if you're still reading, I guess I'm confused as to why you want to marry him if he "can't articulate himself in an argument and often refuses to discuss unpleasant topics (money, bills, or emotional issues)." Also, I'm a little irritated that he keeps telling you he will marry you, but then doesn't.
You say you love him. Well certainly you feel attached to him after five years, and you enjoy his company, and he's a lot of fun.
But this relationship makes you feel bad about yourself, which puts a dent in things. Because he is jerking you around - if he doesn't want to get married, why not just say he doesn't want to get married? Why give you all this nonsense about doing it by X month, and then never following through? That's spineless. Plus he's disorganized and scatty about money. He sounds like a very lovable, enjoyable person who is hard to respect.
Find a very lovable, enjoyable person who is easy to respect - that's who you want to marry.
And I have to second what 'ie' said. Don't give him an ultimatum. Break up with him. You'll immediately feel sad, scared, stressed-out ... but underneath all that ... RELIEVED.
Pirate Jo at October 20, 2010 2:28 PM
@LW: I had a friend who couldn't conceive children. She and her husband did IVF numerous times without success. Eventually they adopted.
She said that she couldn't bear to go to family events where there were newborn babies and going into the town where she lived and seeing young women with strollers made her heart ache.
I don't get it myself because I never wanted kids and I don't understand the desire for marriage either, but I do believe my friend's pain was very real and I believe yours is too. How much of you can take is down to you.
It will probably take all the courage and strength you have to walk away. I remember describing my exit to friends (when I took the geographical cure) as being the following: 99% of me wanted to stay with him, 1% wanted me to go, but I had to listen to the 1% because it was the right choice.
ie at October 20, 2010 2:34 PM
smart guy! Still getting the milk without having to buy the cow! Nahhhh, she won't dump him--they never do.
mike at October 20, 2010 2:55 PM
LW,
I think it is very brave for you to come out here and add to your story AND do it with grace. I once gave a girl out here the best piece of advice she was ever going to get and she turned into a foul mouthed, hate spewing harpy. Anyway, I understand where you are coming from. It is hard to end a long term relationship, especially one that you thought was meant to last. I did it myself many years ago. There were times I doubted my decision, but now when I look at my life realize that I did make the right choice. It took me another three years to find a great guy who shares my values and goals in life. We are very happy. You will be too someday..if you can find the courage to take this step. Good luck to you.
Sheepmommy at October 20, 2010 3:43 PM
but I find the uncertainty of the premise excruciating, especially after this long
I think this is the most explanatory sentence in any of LW's communications. This is a completely valid argument. Some people can have the "why can't we just live" relationship and some people can't. It's not inherently wrong to want to be married to the man you love. It would be wrong to want to be married just because you feel inferior, but I don't get that that's actually the case here, no matter those parts about the "articles and websites." I think she really does want to marry this guy specifically, but I also don't think it would work. He's the "let's just live" type and she's not. I'll agree with whoever above said it's wrong of him to keep promising a proposal, because that's just stringing her along.
LW: your mistake here is not that you want to marry your boyfriend, but that you feel ashamed that you do. And your trying to find "valid" reasons why it's reasonable to want to be married is making you feel worse. You don't need therapy just because you'd like to marry your boyfriend of five years. That's not an indication of a troubled mind. The troubled part came after.
NumberSix at October 20, 2010 3:51 PM
LW, what's your greatest fear about this? I'll bet it's:
I leave him, and then he marries the next girl he dates, and at that point I'm not even dating anyone else, let alone married. And still love him.
This worst fear could happen, and you would STILL be better off than you are now, always being in doubt.
ie makes a good point about geographical distance. When you have your PhD you can go anywhere you want. The life you have now, and the man you love, can always be a fine time in your 20s that you remember. And that's great! Shit, most of my 20s were spent working two jobs and dating assholes. You're already ahead of where I was.
I ended a SEVEN-year relationship a while back, for other reasons than yours, but it's never as terrible as you think. You think you'll never be able to remain friends with that person, and that when they're involved with someone else it will be terrible. Neither of those things proved to be true.
I think what's going to be hard for you is working through all this on your own, without the input of your partner of five years, before you take that final, decisive action. That will make you feel very alone. But it sounds like you have a strong sense of yourself. I think you'll be able to do it. He'll be really pissed, but he will always, ALWAYS respect you for doing it.
And you, on the other hand, are going to move on to some really great things.
Pirate Jo at October 20, 2010 4:02 PM
If you put aside the claims that this guy has ADHD and the rest, his behavior really isn't that strange. He's 29, doesn't have much money, and wants to play music. None of this would be an issue if it weren't for the fact that she wants to get married - right now!
norm at October 20, 2010 7:42 PM
Norm, she's 28. If she wants a family, she doesn't have a hell of a lot of time left to find one. Figure if she breaks up now, it'll take a year to meet a new guy, a year to get serious, a year of engagement... that puts her at 31. If they decide to wait a year to have time together as a married couple before having a kid... 32. Getting close to the grey zone there. If having kids is one of her goals, she needs to work towards that goal. She doesn't have endless time to fuck around, her 20s are essentially over.
The guy is still in the bum around phase of life. Frankly, if he hasn't made it in music by now, he's not going to in his 30s. But it'll take him a few years to get on his feet.
PhD, you need to accept reality. Even if he wanted to get married, he's not stable enough. It's true that the ADHD is a bit of a red herring, I know plenty of folks with that diagnosis who are married professionals. But the fact is, he's still in the fun goof-off stage of life and you're not. And you don't really have time to wait for him to get out of it if a family is one of your goals.
People like to diss on women who have family as a goal, but most do, it's a very reasonable goal, and unfortunately, one with an expiration date.
NicoleK at October 20, 2010 11:50 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/10/im-knot-with-th.html#comment-1768691">comment from NicoleKIt's true that the ADHD is a bit of a red herring,
You can be disorganized and ready to make a commitment. I have ADHD and I've been with Gregg for eight years. (I did, however, lose my car for 20 minutes on Sunday in Culver City.)
Amy Alkon at October 21, 2010 12:22 AM
He's the "let's just live" type and she's not.
That so describes my last relationship...
Ltw at October 21, 2010 3:36 AM
@LW I just had a thought. Right now you're asking for help sorting out what to do. So, there's confusion, back and forthing, you're defending your BF, saying he's not so bad, etc. All of this is okay because this is exactly where you are with this situation right now.
The ex that I moved away from was the one who wanted the commitment. He wanted us to move in together, but he was a very active extrovert and I wasn't. I worried about my ability to work well while living in the same space with him. So I said "wait 'til I'm finished with my degree" (about a year). He reacted by breaking up with me, starting to see others in our same graduate department, then trying to come back to me, etc. Back and forth, back and forth. A mess, in other words.
However, one thing that happened a few months after I left--and with no contact with him for a few months--is that I started to see a pattern of behaviour that I'd missed when I was with him.
Every time I had to give a presentation (we had to present each of our papers to whatever grad seminar we were in), the night before he would push for a commitment and we would get into a fight. I would go in the next day, wired and tired and stressed on more than one level. So in other words, I saw that there was some sabotage going on.
I'm not saying he was doing it on purpose and I don't think it's wise at this point fingers and to blame and hate, but it WAS interesting when I figured it out. And, when I put this in the context of my entire life--now over 20 years later--I'm so glad I took the actions I did. I finished my thesis in another, wonderful and vibrant city. I made new friends and let my life take a better turn. As the French say, "Non, je ne regrette rien."
ie at October 21, 2010 4:32 AM
Figure if she breaks up now, it'll take a year to meet a new guy, a year to get serious, a year of engagement... that puts her at 31. If they decide to wait a year to have time together as a married couple before having a kid... 32.
You know, I hear women tell each other this sort of thing a lot, but it never works out. You're not likely to meet the right guy in a year, he probably isn't going to want to get married a year later, and then have a kid right away, if at all. Men don't have the same 'means to an end' view of relationships that women do. They don't find the sort of mercenary attitudes that women develop around marriage and children attractive. It makes them feel like they're being used. But women never get that. And then they wonder why their relationships don't work out. Because I can tell you that most of the single women who are in their late thirties or forties, trying to meet someone to have a family with, thought the same way when they were twenty nine, and look where it got them.
STK at October 21, 2010 7:55 AM
Men don't have the same 'means to an end' view of relationships that women do.
I see your point. I'm a woman who has always been dead-set against having kids, and simply never cared one way or the other whether I got married. I realize this is unusual. But I'm happy to be the way I am. I took my sweet time finding the right guy and met him when I was 37.
It kind of comes down to a chicken/egg thing for me. Did I first not want children, which allowed me to avoid the "time crunch" issue? Or was it that I thought the "time crunch" issue would suck, and therefore decided it would be best to avoid having children altogether? It certainly is nice not to have to feel pressed to get things checked off a list by any certain time.
On the other hand, I also find children expensive and annoying. It's not like I really see a positive side to having them. Since I totally don't understand the desire, it's hard for me to understand women who are willing to go through this kind of stuff just to have kids. I can't help but thinking, don't you realize that if you just gave up on this silly kid thing you'd be a lot happier? But oh well - I am happy every day for the fact that my biological clock came without batteries.
Pirate Jo at October 21, 2010 9:35 AM
LW - Thanks for coming back and giving us more information. I feel for you. It's so hard to leave someone you love for what seems like no reason. It's so much easier if there is some easy reason (i.e. he cheated, he developed a gambling habit, he's married to someone else).
Based on your two comments, I don't get the impression that your BF a lazy, unreliable slob of a manboy who is not marriage material. I think he's comfortable with the relationship the way that it is, and you're not. You're not wrong for wanting or needing something more from him.
Here's my advice. If you need the security of marraige, you need to break up with him. Not with the idea that maybe if you do, he'll realize you're serious and come crawling back. You need to break up for real, but you should tell him why. Then make a clean break. No phone calls, texts, emails, lunches, or booty calls. Commit to yourself for a while. Date other men. Maybe boyfriend realizes what he's lost and shows up with a ring and a proposal. Maybe you're still available, still love him, and see a future with him. Maybe you're single, but realize he wasn't the one for you. Maybe you're with someone new.
No two situations are alike, but I have a close guy friend who was with his ex-GF for 8 years. They moved cross country together. They lived together. They got their grad degrees together. She wanted to get married. He gave her deadlines that passed without a proposal. They finally broke up when she was in her late 20s and he was in his early 30s, and she was engaged in less than six months to a guy who adores her and wants the same things in life that she does. Not that my friend didn't want those things as well, but he wanted them in more of a hypothetical way, or at least, he wanted them, just not with her. The point of this little antecdote is not that you'll be engaged in six months, but rather that you know BF isn't giving you what you want, but you'll never find what you're looking for unless you go out looking for it.
I don't ever comment here, but you were getting a pillorying here that I didn't think you deserved. You know what to do, but it's hard. Best of luck. We're all more resiliant than we think we are, and things like this always turn out for the best.
Kate at October 21, 2010 12:07 PM
Did you know that the 80/20 rule was originally defined as the proportion of women who'll advise a stranger to break up with her boyfriend no matter what?
I'm kidding, but the numbers are about right.
nick at October 21, 2010 1:49 PM
momof4 said "He's not ready, he knows it (good for him) and you need to move on."
It looks to me like he doesn't have his act together but IS self-aware enough to know it. I think he does love you enough to WANT to marry you but won't do it until after he gets HIMSELF straightened out ....... which (unbeknownst to him) probably won't happen until his 40s, if it ever happens at all. If you're good with this and don't mind rolling the dice, then, by all means, stay. If not, this thing is just going to eat away at you and make you miserable, so "EJECT! EJECT! EJECT!" while you are still on good terms with each other.
pakratt at October 21, 2010 2:12 PM
I think he does love you enough to WANT to marry you but won't do it until after he gets HIMSELF straightened out
I don't see any evidence this guy feels the need to "straighten himself out." He's not the one unhappy with the situation.
MonicaP at October 21, 2010 2:17 PM
Just out of curiosity, what are the reverse numbers? How many men would say to a male friend (who might be feeling pressured into a marriage commitment) to dump the woman?
ie at October 21, 2010 2:19 PM
LW--5 years ago I started in a relationship with a really sweet, kind guy and we were very close. After 2 years, I started smelling the approach of my late 20s. I really loved him and wanted to get married and have children and he was just not ready. It was scary at the time to worry that as soon as I had moved on, he would suddenly become marriage-inclined. I finally got to the point where I understood the Bonnie Rait lyrics "sometimes love just ain't enough." I knew I had to leave him. I realized that I had to risk ending up old and alone; I had to leave a relationship that I knew was not going to progress to marriage any time soon.
Turns out that I married the very next person I dated after dumping my ex. My husband is 10 years older, and was ready for the marriage and family thing. We are so so happy.
I look back on my relationship with my ex now and shudder when I think of what it would've been like to be married to him. Despite all of his good qualities, he was very immature in a lot of ways, especially with money and managing goals. My ex is a nice person, but my leaving him hurt him really bad, so we are not friends. But I think years from now he'll be ready to settle down and he'll understand why I cut him loose.
A 28 year old female human at October 21, 2010 5:05 PM
STK... if it takes longer than a year, even more reason for her to move on now.
And evidently he doesn't see her as a means to an end, he sees her as someone to have fun with now. This is where their goals diverge. It doesn't make him right or her right, they just want different things.
I don't see him as never being marriage material, just not now. I've heard that statistically, the longer you stay together unmarried, the less likely you are to get married. They've already been together a long time.
NicoleK at October 21, 2010 7:30 PM
You know, I hear women tell each other this sort of thing a lot, but it never works out. You're not likely to meet the right guy in a year, he probably isn't going to want to get married a year later, and then have a kid right away, if at all.
STK, you've been talking to the people at the psychic hotline, haven't you?
ie at October 21, 2010 8:31 PM
"the Bonnie Rait lyrics "sometimes love just ain't enough." "
Couldn't agree more, and I was going to use those words before i saw your post, A. Some relationships are doomed from the start. It doesn't matter how much two people love each other if they want different things from the relationship.
William (wbhicks@hotmail.com) at October 21, 2010 9:04 PM
All relationships are doomed from the start.
Knowing that, and if you are lucky enough to find a person who understands that truth too, *and* will take you on anyway . . .
Then grab 'em and hold on for the ride, while it lasts.
. . . and respect the ride.
It might last longer than you think.
railmeat at October 21, 2010 11:39 PM
Probably the most surprising thing that I've learned about women as I've gotten older is that despite all the grand claims and melodrama, when the time comes, many women don't really care who they marry. They just want to be married.
Old Fartski at October 22, 2010 7:47 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/10/im-knot-with-th.html#comment-1769165">comment from Old Fartskimany women don't really care who they marry. They just want to be married.
Not me. I thought I did when I was a little girl, but then, in my early 20s, realized I did not, and that pledging to be with somebody for a lifetime didn't make sense. And yes, I'm still blissfully happy after almost eight years with Gregg. A nice surprise, but unexpected vis a vis human nature.
Amy Alkon at October 22, 2010 7:50 AM
"I don't ever comment here, but you were getting a pillorying here that I didn't think you deserved."
Straight talk is not pillorying.
She changed the not only the goalpost but the rules of the game and has written her BF a new role and script and is upset that he is not performing to her expectations.
People grow and change and want new things. That is normal and expected. She not only wants to change her boyfriend and their relationship, she wants him to WANT to change along with her. That is unreasonable.
My son is ADHD. I probably am too, but to a lesser extent. ADHD people (especially males) are known for being a few steps behind their peers in emotional maturity. Newsflash: some of them never catch up. Others may lag anywhere from a couple to a handful of years behind the typical peer.
LW should come to the understanding that her demands of her BF are not the same as him wanting the same results. Or even if the goals are the same, the timeline is obviously a point of difference.
She can only change herself. Period. Full stop.
If she wants to marry this one guy, propose to him. Why twist it around so he has to perform for her?
LauraGr at October 22, 2010 7:51 AM
LW, what's your greatest fear about this? I'll bet it's:
I leave him, and then he marries the next girl he dates, and at that point I'm not even dating anyone else, let alone married. And still love him.
One of my best friends lived this scenario. She broke up with her 5-year boyfriend (because the relationship was limiting both of them and she was sick of his empty marriage promises). After a month, she missed him and asked if he wanted to get back together. He stopped returning her calls. Within 4 months, he was, I kid you not, MARRIED to someone else.
What followed were some of the saddest, loneliest months of her life. But, after that...things got pretty damn good. She was forced to look into the future and realize that, without all those plans of marrying him, she could build whatever future she wanted. She started dating, was forced to meet new friends to fill the time she used to spend with him, and essentially rebuilt her life into something she's really proud of.
...and she says that she's happier than she was for the last 3 or so years of her relationship.
So, yeah, you might have to deal with your worst-case scenario, but it's what's on the other side of that that matters.
sofar at October 22, 2010 12:32 PM
Also, it seems like your BF is a great guy. It might almost be easier if he gave you a reason to break up with him -- otherwise it's hard to justify doing so, even if it's the right choice.
I was with a guy for 4 and a half years, who was also one of the most wonderful people I've ever met. But we knew marriage wasn't in the cards for us.
We were close, enjoyed each other's company, had a blast together and had similar priorities. Yet we had career goals to accomplish in vastly different cities, and we were no longer physically attracted to each other. He was finally the brave one who ended things.
I'm not gonna lie, it SUCKS. I cried in the bathroom at work every day and sometimes had to pull over on the way home b/c I was sobbing too hard to watch the road. I worried about him and his happiness and wondered if he was lonely or cold or having trouble sleeping -- or just as miserable as I was.
Even now, two years later, I'd kill to have a beer or a coffee with him and talk and joke and take a walk with him like we used to. But I can say I'm glad we are no longer together.
We're still cool and talk on the phone sometimes. I'm happy for him and how his life is going and he feels the same way about me. And now I'm with someone new and awesome who totally re-defined my definition of being happy in a relationship.
Breaking is going to hurt. But I think years of slow torture (which is what you're going through) is worse.
sofar at October 22, 2010 12:54 PM
LW,
Thanks for the extra info! If you read Amy often, you should be able to tell by the way she responded that she doesn't think you are a nutcase (fellow Amyphiles, you should notice that too) and she gave you some great advice.
Have you thought of adjusting your position? Is your guy a Libertarian maybe? I ask because I have gotten to know a few in person (I am one now too) and quite a few of them are against "government marriage". They are all for all the regular trappings of marriage, other than the license. Even if he is not officially that way politically, it sounds like he is thinking that way. (I am *for* marriage license, for the record)
On the general thing of wanting to be engaged, I am with Amy there. When I was a little girl I thought about it all the time and grew past it in my 20's. The first few times I was asked I had no problem turning down the offers. I think I do know what you are feeling now. When I started dating my Beloved it was fine and the next thing I knew I was crazy about him. He asked me about a year after we began dating and made it official with a ring soon after. But we don't have any issues or clashes about our beliefs like you and your guy. I love him and am lucky that he loves me too. The fact that we both look at most things the same way and all makes it easy for both of us to commit, I think.
Maybe if you try it his way, since you love him so much, things might go better?
Suki at October 22, 2010 1:43 PM
Amy,
You lost the pink Rambler for almost half an hour?
Suki at October 22, 2010 2:47 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/10/im-knot-with-th.html#comment-1769333">comment from SukiDon't have the pink Rambler anymore -- drive a 2004 Honda Insight hybrid. I get gas about once every century. It's tiny -- 1,900 lbs. -- and I didn't pay good enough attention to where I parked!
Amy Alkon at October 22, 2010 3:09 PM
Amy,
LOL! I loved your pink Rambler story so much I can't picture you with anything else.
If I can't find the BFT (Big Ford Truck) for that long I'll be looking for an eye doctor :)
Suki at October 22, 2010 3:27 PM
Ya know, this little story sounds just like another example of a female falling for the alpha male. Now an alpha male is not nescessarily smart or ambitious or a good provider etc. etc. But for her, he has a certain something.
As a late middle-aged (beta) male I remember most of the alpha males in high school peaked early and wound up in bullshit jobs. They did, however attract all the best looking females at the time.
So LW falls for the musician (hopeful rock star?). He keeps late hours, hangs with a more interesting crowd, does his own thing. And it makes her crazy to think of leaving him. Why? She knows she probably has to "settle" for a competent but dull beta provider down the line to get the babies and house and stability. How utterly boring!
And the beta provider gets stuck with someone who has, well, settled for him. How shitty is that?
I believe this scenario plays out in the majority of marriages and there isn't any solution that I can see. The girls just think they really should have it all.
accunav at October 23, 2010 12:38 PM
Yeah, sofar, that is the problem, he probably IS a great guy. And since he is one, she doesn't want to break up. But being a great guy, and being a great guy FOR YOU are two different things.
Julliard is a great school... but not if you want to be an engineer.
NicoleK at October 24, 2010 7:54 AM
Accunavel there aren't really alphas and betas, there are only men who identify themselves as betas.
lil buddha at October 24, 2010 1:04 PM
Men and women have highly different biological clocks. Yes, the woman in the original post is of an age to be married (actually, a bit past it, given her fertility is already past peak). The guy is years from that point.
Solution: date older guys who ARE at that point in their lives. That means like a decade older, ideally.
Luke Smith at December 22, 2010 3:55 AM
Howdy! I know this is kind of off topic but I was wondering if you knew where I could locate a captcha plugin for my comment form? I'm using the same blog platform as yours and I'm having problems finding one? Thanks a lot!
Noemi Ellenwood at October 14, 2011 5:19 AM
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