Wuss It Something I Said?
I'm 23, and not unsuccessful with women, just in finding one who wants to stick with me. I approach women two ways: hook up, then part company, or, if I have strong feelings, I work the gentleman angle -- ask the woman out, spend quality time with her, and hold off on making moves until we get to know each other. This approach always fails, and I get friendzoned. I used to tell myself they were afraid of commitment, but more than once, I've watched these women get a boyfriend shortly afterward.
--Not A Player3>
When you like a woman, sure, be a gentleman, just not a Victorian gentleman -- avoiding all sexual contact until marriage and always walking closest to the curb so nobody's chamber pot of excrement splashes on her petticoat.
Where you go wrong is in dividing the world into two kinds of women: the hussies you make moves on and the nice girls you leave puzzled, angry, and sexually frustrated. You probably fear rejection by girls you care about but excuse your mousy approach by calling yourself a gentleman instead of a wimp. Not making moves doesn't make nice girls want you more; it makes them go from wanting you to wanting to throttle you -- until they finally give up and maroon you in the pink zone of their address book (for girlfriends and guys who might as well be).
You should instead divide women into "I could do her" and "Only with a gun to my head and a feedbag over hers." You can't know whether a woman's a keeper on the first date, but at least try to kiss her to stake your claim for being more than friends. Even if she has some rule against first-date kissing, she'll get the message that you are attracted to her, you aren't gay, and your interest goes beyond finding out whether she gets along with her sisters and what she thinks should be done to bring peace to the Middle East.
You don't just go in cold for a kiss. Get some drinks in a girl, then casually touch her arm a few times. Researchers found that a light touch led people to leave bigger tips, made them more likely to sign a petition and to give a stranger on the street a dime. In studies in France by Dr. Nicolas Gueguen, men at a bar were more interested in women who touched their arm shortly after meeting them, and women touched by a man were more likely to dance with the man and, in another study, to give him their phone number. (Gueguen warns that his results might have varied in North America since the French are more "tactile" people -- researcher shorthand for "when two plumbers meet on the street in France they give each other sweet little pecks on each cheek.")
These light arm touches are actually a valuable investigative tool. If, upon being touched, your date doesn't back up while extending a can of pepper spray, consider it a signal to treat her not just like a lady, but a lady you're interested in, and go in for some lip. Maybe it'll lead to love, maybe just a couple more dates. But, at least there's the possibility of something beyond the friendzone -- for guy who understands the difference between getting sparks flying and writing a woman a purchase order for some lighter fluid and a box of matches.
Where you go wrong is in dividing the world into two kinds of women: the hussies you make moves on and the nice girls you leave puzzled, angry, and sexually frustrated.
That was my first thought when reading the letter. Someone's got himself a big ol' Madonna/whore complex: the ones he'll have sex with he doesn't want to date, and the ones he wants to date he's too afraid to have any kind of romantic contact with.
This approach always fails, and I get friendzoned.
Well, duh.
not unsuccessful with women, just in finding one who wants to stick with me...I used to tell myself they were afraid of commitment
Because it's easier to think there's something wrong with all the women you try to date rather than looking at yourself to see what the real cause is. I've never bought the "I can't find anyone who wants to be with me" argument. It's a self-defeating self-fulfilling prophecy. You must actually act like the kind of man a woman would want to date in order to date that kind of woman. Otherwise, you'll only get members of the Low Self-Esteem Desperation Club.
NumberSix at October 6, 2010 12:13 AM
I approach women two ways: hook up, then part company, or, if I have strong feelings, I work the gentleman angle
This approach always fails
--Not A Player
Ummm - you are a player, just not a very good one. Work the gentleman angle? My god.
NumberSix, you nailed it, he has the "sluts are for fucking, ladies are for taking home to your parents" syndrome real bad. I had (note the past tense) a friend like that. I got sick of explaining to his dumped dates in nightclubs that he wasn't just spending a long time in the toilet but that he had gone.
I get friendzoned
Now, I sympathise with this and have been there many times, but I know I'm a wimp and I've had to learn the same lesson myself. I don't blame other people for it. Amy's advice is good LW, and she was pretty gentle with you given her usual style. So, if you have strong feelings for a girl who has agreed to go out with you a few times, make sure she knows you're attracted to her! You don't have to deflower her on the first date, but make sure she knows you would like to...
Ltw at October 6, 2010 4:38 AM
Right again, Amy! And I like this You don't have to deflower her on the first date, but make sure she knows you would like to, ltw.
As the Deep Purple song says (ear worm alert!):
It's not the kill
it's the thrill of the chase
Flynne at October 6, 2010 6:06 AM
You don't necessarily have to make a move on the first date, but you DO have to set up sexual tension. You can do this subtly... correction, many men can do this subtly... using light casual-seeming touching, looks, etc. But they have to be sexually charged.
What about those girls you hooked up with? None of them interesting personality-wise? Betcha some are!
NicoleK at October 6, 2010 8:26 AM
Don't diss the Vics, though, a Victorian gentleman would have acted all gallant and lordly. She would have known he was interested, now matter how demure a maiden she was.
NicoleK at October 6, 2010 8:52 AM
Anyone who 'plays' the gentleman 'angle' is not a gentleman
lujlp at October 6, 2010 11:07 AM
I'm wondering if any of these women know each other. For example, I wonder if the LW is dating from a smallish pool of women. I wonder because I remember a "player" from my 20s who asked me out but didn't make any sort of move for several dates (well, ever, really).
The thing is, I knew he had a reputation for taking a lot of girls home, and I believe it was for real, so I remember feeling perplexed and then letting things fizzle out. It made me wonder if he was into kinky or rough sex, but like the LW, divided girls up into those who would and those who wouldn't. I guess it's nice to know he thought I was one of the "respectable" girls, but it was disappointing nonetheless. I'm pretty sure that that's why I moved on.
ie at October 6, 2010 11:32 AM
"...be a gentleman, just not a Victorian gentleman -- avoiding all sexual contact until marriage and always walking closest to the curb so nobody's chamber pot of excrement splashes on her petticoat."
You really should start putting video versions of your advice column on YouTube—I'm sure they would be a scream.
Razor at October 6, 2010 11:43 AM
I wonder how the LW is coming to the conclusion that the girls he really wants are friendzoning him. Do they tell him that outright, or is he reading signals? If the latter, he may be misreading.
Long ago, I had a first date with a woman during which we never touched--not even fingertip to fingertip. The first time I held hands with her (second or third date, I forget) it was like grasping a dead fish. But I persisted, and eventually we not only became lovers, but lived together for two years.
Rex Little at October 6, 2010 11:45 AM
Dude; You like a girl, make a play for her. If she is not game, move on.
After this happens a few times, you get used to it.
Remember this: Studies show that women clump around to top of the Bell Curve in personality and brains. They are all alike, same three holes, same conversations. There are no special women--after 30 years of relationships and dating, I feel like I have been dating the same woman all along. In a very real sense, I have been. The colors and shapes change, but nothing else (well, as I got older, I had to settle for a little older. A major hardship). If you date a girl from a whole different culture, sometimes there is a fresh twist. But never an American girl.
Latin girls are really hot, but then so are some Europeans. Asians are so soft and sexy.
Don't get hung up oan any one chick.
BOTU at October 6, 2010 5:06 PM
A few months ago I ended a short relationship. He displayed this snobbish kind of I-Can-Wait-Forever-For-Sex kind of behavior. He, of course, found himself to be superior because of his will power...I, on the other hand, found it insulting. After having several sexual experiences with him, I came to believe he is an undercover homosexual. And there is not a lot anyone could do to convince me otherwise...and this belief does not come from a sense of egotistical, self-absorbed entitlement. Oh did I mention the comatosing boredom that relationship inspired in me? Ugh...I hate even thinking about it. Bleeeheeeck!!!
kg at October 6, 2010 6:20 PM
I feel like I have been dating the same woman all along.
I suppose I shouldn't feed the troll, but have you considered BOTU that it feels like that because you don't take a long hard look at yourself occasionally? Maybe you're the common factor. In my experience, there is a world of difference out there. Then again, I don't group women by the number of holes they have.
Studies show that women clump around to top of the Bell Curve in personality and brains
Well, yes, that's inherent in any population that matches a normal distribution. Sort of the point really.
Ltw at October 6, 2010 6:25 PM
LTW-
Studies have shown that men spread, like "fat tails," on personality and intelligence tests. A Bell Curve with big wings. Women make a thin, rocket cone Bell Curve.
Thus, the celluloid stereotypes of dunce-men, and also brainy men, are based often in fact.
Men are Gandhi, Genghis Khan, The Three Stooges, Albert Einstein, John Wayne, Pee Wee Herman. All men.
Women, well, they all clump around a middle, like...well, they all blur together. Even a Hillary Clinton seems a lot like any other middle-aged white lady, wearing stupid pantsuits and going to increasingly desperate lengths with the hairdresser.
The two recent Supreme Court appointees: Can anyone tell them apart? Oh, one is a lesbian,
BOTU at October 6, 2010 9:28 PM
Studies have shown that men spread, like "fat tails," on personality and intelligence tests. A Bell Curve with big wings. Women make a thin, rocket cone Bell Curve.
Yes, yes, men are more extreme in both directions and women are more balanced. Explains lots of stuff like why it's generally men that persevere on some obscure branch of research for years and why women seem to prefer to trade higher wages for home life. Big deal. I doubt that has anything to do with your boring dating experiences. There's still a lot of difference within the bell curve even if it's narrower.
Which tail are you in? The left hand side that believes in un-cited "studies" I guess.
Ltw at October 6, 2010 10:57 PM
Men walked closest to the curb to help reduce the chances of a passing carriage splashing the lady. It actually made sense at the time. Chamber pots were a separate threat and, generally, came from the other direction.
Other than that minor quibble, I think your advice is good. The specifics may vary with time and culture but the game is the same and many of the rules really are coded in our DNA.
parabarbarian at October 7, 2010 9:16 AM
http://www.despair.com/dysfunction.html
This poster has been the cause of much intropsection. Not that I've got a clue how to DO anything about it. But at least it puts the problem into perspective.
brian at October 7, 2010 10:43 AM
Lujlp nailed it:
"Anyone who 'plays' the gentleman 'angle' is not a gentleman"
This guy sounds like a horse's ass with (as other commenters have mentioned)a serious Madonna/Whore complex.
Should we really be giving this guy encouragement and helpful tips about how to be more successful with women? I'm thinking we should instead be giving the women in his life tips on how to avoid this schmuck.
afurrica at October 7, 2010 1:13 PM
LW: "This approach always fails, and I get friendzoned."
No, LW does not "get friendzoned," he "friendzones" himself. If a man acted this way around me, I would guess that he was not attracted to me sexually and only wanted to be my friend. I would think he was "friendzoning" me.
I completely agree with Razor. I would love to watch Amy reply on video!
Rozita at October 7, 2010 2:07 PM
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size acceptance at October 9, 2010 4:32 PM
Yeah, I agree with BOTU. American women are all the same essentially. Instead of having two groups: the ones to have sex with and the ones to marry, we now have one huge group. There are very few places where you can find "nice girls", with the meaning being those who want a relationship, won't sleep with you on the first date (or 2nd, or 5th, or 10th), and have some morals. If a gal won't sleep with you easily, she probably did not sleep with other guys easily. And that is what my group of guy friends and I think.
I do believe that there are better women to be found in other countries. My girlfriend is from South America, but I have also dated asian women. Funny how feminists think guys date foreign women because they are subservient--that is utter BS...the reason is because they look hot and rarely get FAT. Feminists can't stand the truth, so they make one up.
Keep looking guys. Don't ever date liberal women, unless you just want a good time. Find some decent women in church, or look on campus for foreign women.
mike at October 10, 2010 2:02 PM
New directive to men, walk so that your dominant hand is on the outside for protecting your lady...I am no longer concerned about a carriage splashing my wife but if we're out walking (I'm a righty) I can push her out of danger with my left and block her from the threat with my body while striking with my right....
The friendzone is a magical place full of other sexually frustrated men...good god man "the gentleman angle"...try having lunch with her too...then go and pick out drapes...
Not sure if there were coherent thoughts expressed...
Red at October 11, 2010 8:46 AM
This is totally irrelevant but had to share... once my then bf, now spouse of 22 years and I were walking down Telegraph St. in Berkeley and a huge, pierced, red hair out of a jello box, berkenstock wearing, shopping cart pushing resident (typical berkeley resident, ya know?) says to my bf, "faux pas man, you should be on the curb side".
Laurie at October 14, 2010 1:41 PM
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