As Fat Would Have It
I've been on about 20 dates with girls I met online, and 15 of them were much heavier than they were in their photos. I'm getting a little tired of this. Is there some acceptable way to ask a woman how much she weighs before you meet up?
--Narrowing 'Em Down
There's that saying, "The camera adds 10 pounds." Well, the Internet often subtracts 50. (Not to worry, all that weight will be back in place before you can say "Starbucks at 3?") But, sorry, you cannot ask a woman how much she weighs -- or even poke around in that direction: "So...what's the most candy you've ever eaten at one sitting? And, are you sitting on any candy right now?"
Internet dating has its pluses -- instant access to loads of potential partners -- and its plus-sized minuses: those big surprises you've encountered on three out of four dates. Just think of them as a price you have to pay for the easy access -- a sort of high technology fee. In the future, assume everyone's lying and be pleasantly surprised when someone isn't. To keep your emotional costs down, try to get women to meet you as soon as possible for a quick drink instead of carrying on at length by phone and e-mail. This should help keep you from getting attached while spending weeks learning everything about them and then finding yourself on a date unable to ask the one thing you're really dying to know: "So...when was your picture taken? And of whom?"
There are a few things the LW can do to help. Ask when and where her pictures were taken. He can word it as interest in her life rather than her weight. Look for full-body pics. Look for clues in the pic as to how old it is. A Don't Worry Be Happy shirt should be a tipoff. Or suggest you meet via webcam first.
MonicaP at November 16, 2010 5:25 PM
A friend of mine and I were both doing online dating at the same time. Both of us had the same experiences as the LW. So since we work in an urban area with coffee shops within walking distance, we would occasionally do "recons' for each other. She would scope out my guys and I would scope out hers.
With the men we encountered, it was mostly that they were a lot older (like around 10 years older) than they posted, although one of mine was really overweight and had obviously used a very old photo. If it hadn't been for his flaming red hair, I would have missed him entirely.
After I stopped online dating, my friend started doing the "I'll be wearing a yellow dress" sort of thing and then ask them to wear something recognizable too. Then she would wear something else, and with big sunglasses on, would walk by and check the guy out before approaching.
I think Amy's right about the odds, though. Every man I met lied about something--weight or age--and so it's best to keep your expectations low. My friend said that about 1-2 in 10 guys she met was actually dating material. And she said this because she tended, like me, to discount the obvious liars.
Anyway, I'm sure my friend and I sound mean and childish, but it is disappointing when someone who says they're 48 and is really 58 or 60. Or says they're 5' 11" and they're 5' 7". (I can tell because I'm tall.) Or posts a picture of themselves when their hair was still dark. (I've no problem with grey hair; it's the lie that's the problem.)
And my friend and I figured that if these men were willing to tell obvious lies, then that was the chance they were taking--that they would be stood up when their real age and weight didn't correspond to the picture they posted.
Thanks for reminding why I stopped with the online dating...brutal! But I think MonicaP's advice is great...a webcam would save you a lot of time.
ie at November 16, 2010 6:34 PM
Just assume that anyone spending all their time sitting in front of a PC or laptop trying to score a date instead of getting some exercise is probably somewhat overweight.
Chunks at November 16, 2010 6:57 PM
try to get women to meet you as soon as possible for a quick drink instead of carrying on at length by phone and e-mail
That's the trick. Women who want to spend too long at a distance tend to be concealing something. If it's not their appearance, it's their age, or the fact that they're married. I expect that men do the same.
The basic problem with meeting people online is that the online dating pool is disproportionately unattractive, for one reason or another. You're dealing with a lot of people who have to pull off a bit of a con in order to get a date.
I'd tried it for a while, but didn't have the patience to spend hours repeating the same cycle of questions and pointless interactions over and over again with strangers.
Jack at November 16, 2010 7:42 PM
I think people don't realize that a "little" lie can be a big dealbreaker. I have never been interested in short guys, but as I'm only 5'4 it's really not that difficult for guys to be tall enough for my liking. A few years ago when I was new to an area I went online in search of new friends, and met a cute guy. His profile said he was a bit shorter than my ideal, 5'6 or 5'7, but I was really just looking for cool people to hang out with so I met him. He was actually exactly my height. He was cute, funny and a really nice guy - we ended up being friends and later roommates for a while, but if he hadn't lied, who knows? Maybe I'd have gotten over his height, but I couldn't get over his lying about it.
Beth at November 16, 2010 8:59 PM
When I tried online dating (for about 6 weeks) I posted about 10 pictures of myself at a variety of angles including several full-body shots. Whenever I started talking to someone, I would ask them to friend me on facebook. That way they could see 500 more pictures of me, and if they didn't like what they saw then they could always nip it in the bud without embarrassing both of us with an awkward first date. (Same thing applied to me seeing them, obviously). Facebook is also a good way to get insight into someone's life and personality, and to make sure that details like where they work, when they graduated from school, etc all check out.
I would never, ever tell a complete stranger my weight though. How rude! Plus I don't think it would be that helpful because most guys have a very poor conception of what women weigh. (Probably because women lie about their weight so often that men build a mental picture of what, say, 120 pounds looks like and it's not accurate at all.) So I could tell you my weight and you'd probably think that I'm fat and my pictures were lying, but I'm not at all.
Shannon at November 16, 2010 9:09 PM
"The basic problem with meeting people online is that the online dating pool is disproportionately unattractive, for one reason or another. You're dealing with a lot of people who have to pull off a bit of a con in order to get a date."
Maybe that depends on the age range you're looking at, as well as gender and location. When I did online dating I found plenty of normal, attractive guys. But I was looking for men aged 20-25, which included a large amount of people who had just graduated and moved to a new area where they didn't know anyone, so it made sense that they would try online dating as a way to meet people.
Interestingly enough, when I went through the database of women in that age range and location (wanted to size up the competition lol), they were on average MUCH less attractive than the male profiles I saw. I honestly thought I might have been the most attractive in the group, and I'm not a supermodel. I wonder if that dynamic changes with the age range-women have the upper hand in their 20s, and are less likely to turn to online dating, but have trouble meeting men when they're older, so more of them turn to online dating services. That was just my experience though-I have no idea how universal it is.
Shannon at November 16, 2010 9:27 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/11/as-fat-would-ha.html#comment-1783390">comment from ChunksJust assume that anyone spending all their time sitting in front of a PC or laptop trying to score a date instead of getting some exercise is probably somewhat overweight.
Always a better idea to go by evidence rather than assumption.
Gary Taubes in NY Mag:
http://nymag.com/news/sports/38001/
"Why most of us believe that exercise makes us thinner—and why we're wrong."
What do I do all day, seven days a week? Sit in front of a computer. I have a wonderful boyfriend, so I'm not trolling for one; I'm writing -- and writing and writing and writing.
Because I don't eat carbs, I don't need to exercise to be thin.
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/06/28/la_press_club_a_4.html
Well, I could be thinner than that if I wanted to, but why? ("This is your body on...bacon, butter, eggs, hamburger, steak, chicken with skin, pork chops, buttered green beans, salad with lots of dressing...and a scoop of ice cream every week and a half or so.")
Amy Alkon at November 16, 2010 9:38 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/11/as-fat-would-ha.html#comment-1783392">comment from Jacktry to get women to meet you as soon as possible for a quick drink instead of carrying on at length by phone and e-mail
I always say that first dates should be fast, cheap, and local. Glass of wine for an hour and a half, max, and have someplace to be afterward. Even if the reality is that you have to be on your couch to get away.
You aren't necessarily getting away because there's something wrong with the person; even if you like them, the marathon date is a bad idea. Kills perspective.
Leave them wanting more, not wanting less.
Amy Alkon at November 16, 2010 9:46 PM
Whenever I started talking to someone, I would ask them to friend me on facebook.
That sounds like a recipe for trouble.
What do you do w/ the people that you lose interest in, de-friend them?
And as for the attractiveness gap, dating sites are notorious for that. I don't know whether it balances out among an older set, but the relative attractiveness of the people I'd seen ( 30's ) was in line with what you'd observed among 20 somethings.
Jack at November 16, 2010 10:33 PM
"What do you do w/ the people that you lose interest in, de-friend them?"
Yep.
The thing with online dating is that anyone can make up a fake name and persona and post pictures that aren't them. You can't do that on facebook though (at least not without raising some red flags) so it's a good way to make sure someone is who they say they are. None of the guys I ever talked to had a problem with this, probably because they wanted to make sure the same about me.
Shannon at November 16, 2010 11:00 PM
I've been online dating on/off for 15 years. Been to a couple friends' weddings who met this way, so it works just like any other way. I learned to meet as soon as possible though, and just like Amy said, keep it "fast, cheap and local."
Have met all sorts of people not being 100% honest, but actually I'm glad the last one wasn't. He said he was single, and I didn't find out until after I met him that the divorce wasn't finalized until a month later. Had I known that he was only legally separated on his profile, I would have refused to meet him in the first place (bad previous experience).
But as it has shaken out, he is the most wonderful, functional guy I've ever dated. Going on 6 months, and he continually wows me. We're keeping the pace slow and rational, but he'd already done a year's worth of therapy and divorce healing groups before I met him, and shows no signs of lingering anger over the ex even though they still need to sell the house.
We're in our 50s so breeding's not on the agenda, and there's no rush for any status change, but boy, am I enjoying feeling cherished for a change by a guy who knows how to be there for me, yet has his own life too. It's the sweetest thing, and I'm feeling very fortunate to experience it, even if something should happen down the road.
I had lots of years when I didn't think any kind of dating would ever be successful, and then finally, a real gem came along. Not sure what the actual lesson here is, but I'm REALLY glad I went for another round of online dating and met him!
AliceInBoulderland at November 16, 2010 11:13 PM
The thing with online dating is that anyone can make up a fake name and persona and post pictures that aren't them. You can't do that on facebook though
I've never been on Facebook, but I thought it was just a site where people post pictures and information about themselves for others to read. Why is it harder to lie there than on a dating site? Do they send someone out to your house to check up?
Rex Little at November 17, 2010 1:19 AM
If you're in the mood for a creepy story, here's a way to definitely NOT go about finding out if the woman's overweight ahead of meeting her:
A friend of mine had met a guy online and, after a pleasant phone conversation, arranged to meet for coffee a few days later. In the interim, this guy somehow found out where she worked (it's possible that she let it slip during the phone call and had forgotten, but she denies it.) and had very expensive flowers delivered to her office. As creepy and inappropriate as that was, his reason was worse.
When she called to cancel the coffee date over his inappropriate flowers, he explained that, "I just wanted to make sure you weren't fat." So not only did he send the flowers, he was lurking around the lobby to watch her sign for them.
By the way, she isn't at all fat and she's stunningly beautiful. Thankfully, this clown didn't keep up his stalker behavior and presumably moved on to make the hair stand up on the necks of other online hopefuls.
jonQpublic at November 17, 2010 1:33 AM
jonQpublic: It's funny how stories like that are deemed cute and romantic in movies (ahem, You've Got Mail) but just come off as creepy in real life. Good for your friend for getting rid of the guy. Even if his reason wasn't to see if she was fat, flowers showing up at your office when you didn't tell him where you worked is a no-no. Come to think of it, sending flowers at all after one phone conversation and before you've even met is a no-no.
Onto the actual LW: Is there some acceptable way to ask a woman how much she weighs before you meet up?
Provided you've finished the third grade, you already know the answer to this. To tie in with today's blog item, being online doesn't give you a free pass to misplace your manners, however temporarily.
NumberSix at November 17, 2010 1:46 AM
@JohnQ: I don't blame your friend for being creeped out, but at the same time, the guy has probably had a lot of bad experiences.
For example, if I knew the guy I was going to meet up with worked close by, I don't know if I wouldn't try to see him in advance. (Although the flowers he sent were way too much, I agree.)
It's disappointing to sit there and see a man walk in who only very vaguely resembles the photo he's posted. I know with one of the guys I met, he walked in and I thought he must be someone's grandfather. He had to be at least 10 - 15 years older than the photo he used. Trying to get through coffee was really awkward since I knew there was no way things were going to work.
That's when my friend suggested the 'recon' thing and we both helped each other out. And she suggested the clothing switch--don't wear what you say you're going to wear. It made me feel like a very cheesy version of 007, but in the end, I was glad I did it. I saved myself from a few more awkward coffees.
As for the age group, I think the younger people using dating sites are way more mature than the people my age (40s - 50s). And more power to them. I admire them for it.
On the other hand, I swear every guy I met lied about something, whereas I know of a few young couples who have gotten together via dating websites, and that tells me that they're probably not lying as much. (Atlhough maybe someone here can set me straight on that issue.)
I would never do it again, but then I get out enough socially to meet enough men. It just works better for me.
ie at November 17, 2010 3:29 AM
I am appalled at the number of women here who are willing to stand a man up just because he's a little older or heavier than Adonis.
Lamont Cranston at November 17, 2010 5:16 AM
"I've never been on Facebook, but I thought it was just a site where people post pictures and information about themselves for others to read. Why is it harder to lie there than on a dating site? Do they send someone out to your house to check up?"
The people who friend you on FB actually know you, so it would be harder to lie, unless you just set up a FB page for potential online dates.
lovelysoul at November 17, 2010 5:30 AM
Why is it rude to ask about weight? Look it is going to be obvious the moment they see you that you're carrying an spare tire or not, it isn't as though they're prying deep into your family history or anything, it isn't a big secret.
And why waste your time on someone who isn't going to be attracted to you in this first place? If you don't want to be awkward about it, then take a full photo, post it, date it, and then the question won't come up.
Robert at November 17, 2010 5:35 AM
LW can do a lot to prevent this in his online profile. I had much more success when I was direct and precise about what I was looking for and what I didn't want.
One guy's profile read, "Please, ladies, understand I'm not interested in e-mailing or talking on the phone for weeks on end before we meet. I'm a personal trainer, so trust me, you can't lose those 40 pds you put on since high school in 3 weeks. If you don't look like your photos, let's not bother.
I'm sure he got tons of hate mail, but I respected that, as I think most of us who had dates who didn't match their photos do. The only people who will be offended are the ones trying to trick you.
So, LW, just lay it out there. The women who do that will think twice before giving you an online "wink", and if you contact them, believing they're thin from their photos, they'll read your profile, and know that won't go over well.
The women who do this are trying to show that they were once attractive and thin, and they hope that when you talk with/meet them, it won't matter that they're now fat.
lovelysoul at November 17, 2010 5:46 AM
Also, I did have guys ask me how old my photos were, and if I could e-mail them some more recent photos. That didn't offend me. I look young for my age, so I'm sure some were suspicious. If a woman's not hiding anything, she'll be happy to forward a few more pictures. We live in a digital age - almost everybody as recent photos on their phone at the ready.
Plus, most laptops have webcams now, so you can also request a chat over webcam. All this can help you avoid even having an awkward first meeting.
lovelysoul at November 17, 2010 6:00 AM
To ie: Perhaps the guy did have a lot of bad experiences, but I'm having a hard time imagining someone defending his actions -- however well intentioned and empathetic that defense.
1) He perhaps stalked a work address out of her. As I said, knowing this woman as well as I do, she very well could have let it slip during their phone conversation. Even still, would you want a razor thin potential romantic interest turning up at your job? For any reason whatever? Even to deliver something as innocuous as donuts?
2) You've agreed that the flowers were way over the top. I understand that you're not defending that part of his approach. You should know that the flowers were of the $120+ variety -- red roses even. Now she's been put in the awkward position of, however casually and artfully, explaining the delivery to her fawning colleagues.
3) This guy could have spent $5 on coffee and spent maybe twenty minutes at most to find out that they weren't a match. If his time was so precious, why did he spend forty minutes (probably a lot more ... did I mention that I know this woman?) on the phone with her? Her conversational skills were clearly not the issue. Instead, he spent upwards of $120 and his own dignity to find out whether or not he should risk being seen in public with her.
I'm sure his intentions were well merited by past experiences as you say, but his execution was horrible. By the way, in my opinion, it's not so different than the plan that you and your friend hatched -- it's creepy on an entirely smaller scale than the guy in my story, but it has a common thread. Again, I'm not equating your little plan to my story and it's hardly comparable -- it's just that the motivation seems similar. Oh yeah, and the complete disrespect for fellow human beings is a little thread that seems to be woven in there as well.
JonQpublic at November 17, 2010 6:16 AM
@Robert:
"Why is it rude to ask about weight?"
Really Robert? There was a discussion about porn on here recently. You're going to need a mop bucket full of that porn, Buddy, 'cause you're not going to be keeping company with any actual women by throwing that question around! :)
jonQpublic at November 17, 2010 6:24 AM
@lovelysoul -- That's really good advice and very germane to the original letter. Best post ever!
jonQpublic at November 17, 2010 6:29 AM
@JohnQ: I take your point. And I would have felt odd about getting the flowers as well. So I understand where you are coming from. It's just that I also think it's human nature to want to peek in advance, just not to do it in such a horrible way.
Yes, it IS a bit unfair to check the guy out first, but as I said, men in my age group really seem to lie a lot. My friend, who has met probably over 100 men, has had numerous experiences with this and, even though she's one of the nicest, most patient women I know, even she finally said "enough is enough and I'm checking the guy out first."
I mean, it might only be a 5 minute coffee, but it's awkward. And to do it over and over again (not me, my friend) gets to be onerous after a while.
It's the lying that's the issue. If someone is willing to tell you a whopper right out of the gate, then why bother?
And it's not as if it was a total stand-up. I know when I did it a couple of times I texted and/or emailed the man to say I couldn't make it, which in my mind is fair enough. I could have texted and said "hey you're a lying jerk," but I didn't.
At 45 I wasn't really willing to date someone who was 60. It's a preference I think I'm entitled to, just the LW is entitled to try to weed out overweight women. It's mean, but then I was turned down too, several times, and not too nicely either, so I think that for me, things worked out even/steven.
ie at November 17, 2010 6:53 AM
Amy, what salad dressing do you use? I ask only because I thought a lot of them have too much sugar in them, and I'm curious which one is (obviously) working for you!
Angie at November 17, 2010 7:28 AM
@Lamont Cranston. It's not the being "a little older or heavier than Adonis" that's the problem. It's posting a singles ad claiming you look like Adonis, with a picture from your high-school wrestling days 30 years ago, and then showing up looking like Woody Allen. If the original ad had said, "Adorably older nebbish, thinning hair, big glasses, seeks young hottie," that would solve the problem. Truth in advertising. Is that so tough?
Anathema at November 17, 2010 7:29 AM
Thanks, JohnQ.
I actually met a guy who told me he showed up for a first date at Disney World, only to discover that she was in a wheelchair - a fact she'd neglected to mention in their previous phone calls. This poor guy pushed her around all day. He said the only good thing was that, because she was handicapped, they got to go to the front of the lines.
The moral is never to plan a big first date. ALWAYS meet for coffee first.
But, ie, I don't like the idea of having someone show up for a date, checking them out, then just blowing them off. I understand the temptation, but it seems wrong. I certainly had some awkward first meetings, where I knew in the first 5 secs that the guy wasn't right for me, but I would've felt bad if a guy had gone to the trouble of getting dressed up and ready to meet me, and shown up at the location, to just text that I wouldn't be there.
lovelysoul at November 17, 2010 7:52 AM
"Why is it rude to ask about weight? Look it is going to be obvious the moment they see you that you're carrying an spare tire or not, it isn't as though they're prying deep into your family history or anything, it isn't a big secret."
Unless you have some sort of social disability or are under the age of 5, then you've probably figured out that asking someone's weight is considered inappropriate. It would be like if a woman wanted to clarify your income to the dollar before going out a date. I'm sure that even high-earning men would be turned off by this level of shallowness and lack of adherence to social skills, just as even thin women don't want to be asked about their weight.
Besides, the number by itself isn't all that useful-two women could both be 5'6 and 140 pounds, and one could be smoking hot while the other is just chunky. What you really want to know is whether she has changed since her photos, and there are better ways of figuring this out. Like "that picture of you waterskiing looks really fun-when was that taken?" Also I once again recommend using facebook (if you have one)-you can see when pictures are taken and you're more likely to see recent ones.
Shannon at November 17, 2010 8:15 AM
But, ie, I don't like the idea of having someone show up for a date, checking them out, then just blowing them off.
Yeah. That's cold. I think that you need to keep in mind that people often aren't good at evaluating themselves objectively. They may not realize how different they appear to you.
One of the bigger dating ( IIRC Match.com ) sites did a study a few years ago that basically found that online dating only really works for certain types of people. Most people don't adapt well and leave after a short while. The ones who enjoy it tend to be superficial in the way that they evaluate people. They evaluate partners in the same way that a dating site presents them, and so it's a natural fit. Basically they're catalog shopping. They also tend to be people who are highly conforming in their lifestyle and social position, so they make good 'products' in the dating market.
That's what's motivated sites like eHarmony and Chemistry. They're trying to capture the other 85% of their potential customer base.
silo at November 17, 2010 8:18 AM
"LW can do a lot to prevent this in his online profile. I had much more success when I was direct and precise about what I was looking for and what I didn't want.
One guy's profile read, "Please, ladies, understand I'm not interested in e-mailing or talking on the phone for weeks on end before we meet. I'm a personal trainer, so trust me, you can't lose those 40 pds you put on since high school in 3 weeks. If you don't look like your photos, let's not bother."
I said something similar on my profile. It went something like:
My pics are recent and my height and body type are accurate. I expect yours to be as well. If we decide to meet for coffee and you are not as you represented yourself, it will be a very short coffee date.
@Angie
My wife makes no-sugar salad dressings from Eades' book "The 6 Week Cure for the Middle Aged Middle".
Steamer at November 17, 2010 8:41 AM
One could always use the Michael Scott line of questioning: "Would an average size rowboat support you without capsizing?"
I've done some online dating, and women in my age group aren't especially honest. One woman, for example, posted pics from the chest up and apparently always wearing contact lenses. When she showed up for a quick drink, her ass was approximately as wide as my car (okay, I drive a little Honda, but still) and she wore very outdated, unflattering eyeglasses. She also spent twenty minutes bitching about her ex-husband. I paid the check when she went to the rest room and said good night when she returned.
But I think the weight/appearance issues can be resolved by asking for more images, as several people have noted above. I failed to do this, but if I return to online dating, I'll request more photos in questionable instances. I do think that lots of online daters completely overrate their own level of attractiveness, at least in their late 30s and early 40s. This probably goes for men as well as women (and maybe I do it myself, though I consider myself an average-looking guy). I also think that women often operate under the mistaken assumption that all men will date/sleep with any woman who is still breathing.
And extra photos can't resolve the other problems I've run across with some women who date online:
* Stage Five Clingers who need constant contact after one meeting over coffee
* Single mothers who don't actually have time to date, or the money/inclination to hire sitters
* Women so lacking in personality that they can't hold a man's real-world interest for more than ten minutes
* Women who pretend to like (fill in the blank: sports, a certain kind of music, craft beer, particular books/shows/movies, whatever) in order to have something in common with a man
* Women with a lot of relationship baggage who are bitter/nasty/condescending/etc.
I've given up on the online thing. I'm not shy and don't have much trouble meeting women in real life, and I can get a fairly good read on a woman's personality after a ten minute conversation at a bar or a couple of twirls around the dance floor.
MikeInRealLife at November 17, 2010 8:43 AM
@Lovelysoul. I know it's cold and I'm not saying it's my favourite thing to do--I mean I did stop online dating because I found the process too difficult--but think of the alternatives.
One guy I met blew me off in person within 5 minutes of meeting him. He had a slight look of disgust on his face, which I can remember to this day. (And I'm the right weight for my height and have no trouble attracting men outside this situation, so I can't be that bad looking!)For a 50 year old I know I get asked out more often than my friends, so I found this difficult.
Another one stayed about 10 minutes and then took a phone call, which I suspected was an "escape call". I could tell by the look of relief on his face.
If a guy's not interested, I'd rather show up for coffee, get a text, feel a slight pinch of disappointment and then get on with my day, rather than be summed up--imagine an up and down inspection--in a few seconds or minutes and found deficient. And these same men had lied about their ages and used old photographs.
I've said this before: I think it's something to do with our age group. When I was younger, only desperadoes used personal ads. If someone was lonely, they might get "set up" by friends or by others in their ethnic community. Personal ads were considered a last resort and I didn't know anyone who used them. I know that my father once joked that it was only "genteel prostitutes" who did. (I'm not saying he's right, but that was his perception.)
Now things have changed and that's a good thing, but my generation still remembers the stigma of finding a mate this way. That's why I think we older folks--40+ ro 50+--have a harder time, at least that's what I'm finding. Maybe someone out there can tell me differently? I'd be open to that.
Those meetings were hard on my ego, which of course is the risk, but even when I was the one who was disappointed, I was usually courteous enough to go through the motions. A lot of people just don't have manners these days and although what me and my friend did seems cold, it was probably less painful for the guy in the long run. Easier for him to say "next!" without a heavy heart or bruised ego.
ie at November 17, 2010 8:52 AM
IE the problem is that you're dealing with boomers, and boomers are shitty people. It's that simple.
Boomer Hater at November 17, 2010 9:02 AM
@Steamer
Thanks, but is it easy to do, and does it taste good? I wouldn't mind making my own.. but I worry that it would taste gross.. plus, I'm not sure I want to purchase the book to get the recipe, since I don't have a middle-aged middle. Maybe I'll dig around online and see if I can find one..
I just assumed since Amy doesn't do cooking, it was probably a store brand, and I was curious!
Angie at November 17, 2010 9:05 AM
LW can do a lot to prevent this in his online profile. I had much more success when I was direct and precise about what I was looking for and what I didn't want.
I found the biggest mistake people make in online dating is casting their nets too wide. The goal isn't to date as many people as possible (unless that's your goal, then have at it). The goal, presumably, is to find a long-term relationship.
I was very specific in outlining not only what I wanted, but what I had to offer. If people weren't interested in that or didn't have what I wanted, I wished them luck in the dating pool, but I was clearly not the person they were looking for.
MonicaP at November 17, 2010 9:07 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/11/as-fat-would-ha.html#comment-1783864">comment from AngieAmy, what salad dressing do you use? I ask only because I thought a lot of them have too much sugar in them, and I'm curious which one is (obviously) working for you!
Mix olive oil, a little balsamic, and a little Dijon mustard and pepper in a jar to make dressing. I get different kinds -- I just read the back label to see that they don't have corn syrup, etc.
Amy Alkon at November 17, 2010 9:11 AM
Forgot to add: All dating is like shopping. We're looking for a quality companion and tossing the people who don't meet our needs. Online dating just makes it more obvious.
That aspect of it actually made it easier to deal with rejection. I knew I was doing the same thing the men I dated were doing. The sweater at MACY's doesn't take it personally when I put it back and choose a different sweater. It's probably a perfectly fine sweater -- for someone else.
MonicaP at November 17, 2010 9:12 AM
@Angie
We mostly use a Dijon Vinagrette. You can find lots of recipes online and they are quick and easy. If they call for sugar, you can use a very small amount of stevia. Here's one that is close to the one we use:
http://www.foodandwine.com/recipes/dijon-vinaigrette
If you are into low carb, it is well worth it to buy the book just for the recipes. Probably half of the meals we make are from the 6 Week Cure.
I bought the book and then I bought the ebook version so that I could easily print out the recipes we use most often.
Steamer at November 17, 2010 9:23 AM
Thanks a bunch Amy and Steamer! I'm going to try these!
Angie at November 17, 2010 9:38 AM
@MonicaP. I think it's great to take the shopping attitude. I wish I had thicker skin (it would make my life infinitely easier), but the fact is I don't.
I think of it this way: most human beings gravitate to the positive and not the negative. Online dating emphasized the negative for me. I encountered a lot of dishonesty, was judged ro be lacking by a few men, and what the hell! I didn't like it.
On the other hand, I can join an outing group or some other social activity and meet men that way. Or, as it's often happened, I meet men through my work. I feel desirable and confident and any ugly secrets the guy might be hiding don't stay in hiding for long. The process of meeting in a setting with mutual friends, or mutual interests, usually precludes that.
I do think younger people are way better at this.
A thread or so ago I mentioned a friend who
serially dated two men, both of whom were married and she didn't know. Sounds impossible, right? Like she must be an idiot, especially since both relationships lasted over a year each.
But she met them both online, they were both wealthy and rented apartments for their sorties outside their marriages. My friend assumed they were single because of what she saw. And who can blame her?
Again, the men were of our generation and I think saw my friend as someone who was dupe-able, and possibly because she put herself out there on the net. They did seem to act as if she "asked for it" when she confronted them. "Hey, you put yorself out there so what's the big deal?" sort of behaviour. There's a genuine lack of respect coming from these men and that's what's really put me off.
I think Boomer-hater might be right :)
ie at November 17, 2010 9:56 AM
I find it funny when people refer to online dating and then "real life". You don't date online. It's just a method for meeting people. You still have to meet them in real life, and the fact is, we meet a lot of batshit crazy people in our real lives every day, so why would anyone expect it to be different?
Online dating just gives you access to a whole lot more people. If you go to a bar, there might be one or two people of interest, and after talking with them, maybe none.
It's the same concept online. You have more people to choose from, but you still have to weed through them carefully.
In general, people with fuzzy, out of focus photos, and/or no full body shots are to be avoided.
That said, men tend to have worse photos than women just because they don't take as many and don't care as much how they look in them. Some men showed up looking far better than the distant shot of them holding up a trout on a camping trip would've indicated. Sometimes, I took a leap of faith if I really liked what a guy wrote. A few times, I was very pleasantly surprised.
Have at least one phone call with someone before meeting, but not so many you start to get attached before meeting. It can be really awkward to back away once you've become friendly. Ask a lot of questions beforehand.
But, if you're disappointed, grin and bear it. Some people look like their photo, but when animated, they just aren't what you expect because we all attach a kind of persona to a photo.
That's what I found created more disappointment for me. When you meet someone in person, you've never had any time to imagine what they'll be like, but seeing photos online tends to create a "fantasy" of that person. It's hard for anyone to live up to our fantasies.
lovelysoul at November 17, 2010 10:00 AM
Boomer-hater probably is a boomer, so he/she should know.
Pricklypear at November 17, 2010 10:04 AM
Lovelysoul wrote: "I find it funny when people refer to online dating and then 'real life'. You don't date online. It's just a method for meeting people. You still have to meet them in real life, and the fact is, we meet a lot of batshit crazy people in our real lives every day, so why would anyone expect it to be different?"
Point taken, though it's largely semantic. I think everyone knows the difference between meeting people "online" (via Match, PoF, OkC, whatever) and meeting them "in real life" (in a bar, grocery store, library, whatever).
The online method removes the initial ability to see a person interact with others, observe their body language, notice any batshit-crazy indicators, etc. Thus, while I might immediately disregard a woman I see in a bar based on these things and never ever approach her, I don't have that ability online. I do have that ability "in real life," and that makes it easier for me to quickly discriminate between the women I might like and those I won't.
MikeInRealLife at November 17, 2010 10:57 AM
ie wrote:
"I wish I had thicker skin (it would make my life infinitely easier), but the fact is I don't."
ie, could that be because, as a woman, it is usually the men asking you out and you haven't had to face as much rejection as we menfolk have?
I can still remember walking across the gym at a high school dance, asking a girl to dance, and then talking the long walk back across the floor with everyone watching when she shot me down. After that, getting blown off on a coffee date is small potatoes.
Steamer at November 17, 2010 11:01 AM
After that, getting blown off on a coffee date is small potatoes.
I think divorce is what gave me a thick skin about this stuff. After that, who cares if some guy I barely know hates my hair?
MonicaP at November 17, 2010 11:06 AM
Women you approach in public are usually much more polite than women you meet online. There's
something about online dating that makes people nasty and boorish.
I'd given up dating online when I recognized that it was causing me to have a negative attitude towards women generally.
I think everyone knows the difference between meeting people "online" (via Match, PoF, OkC, whatever) and meeting them "in real life" (in a bar, grocery store, library, whatever).
Nope. Many do not.
jj price at November 17, 2010 11:16 AM
Isn't there a service where you can rate your date?
I thought I'd heard of an internet dating site where you could not only hook up with them, but leave comments about them as to how your dates went.
I can't imagine people who use photoshop or fifteen year old pictures would really be interested in a site like that. Sounds like safer surfing to me.
You comment about how the camera adds ten pounds brings to mind an episode of Friends I happened to see...since I never watched the show. Courtney Cox's character was showing home movies...back when she must have been 100 pounds heavier. Matthew Perry's character was stunned by how enormous she was, and she said something like, "...you know how the camera adds ten pounds." Still in stunned disbelief, Matthew Perry asked, "How many cameras were on you?"
Patrick at November 17, 2010 11:22 AM
I think what people dislike is that online dating sets one up for rejection more often. You can't guage that innate, natural chemistry as well as you can when you first encounter someone in person. If they like you, they'll send those flirty signals, and, if you feel the same, you'll approach or allow your body language to welcome their approach. It's a little less risky, especially for women, since we don't usually make the approach.
Yet, even when a guy misjudges the cues in person, he can often save face by pretending just to be interested in conversation or wanting to be friends.
But, with meetings arranged online, it's all out there. The two of you are meeting specifically to see if there's an attraction, and odds are good that one or both of you won't feel any.
So, it can be very disappointing, yet the plus side is that it allows you to narrowly define your search to people who share your interests, plus find out in advance things like do they want kids or what their profession, politics and religion may be.
You can't know any of those things approaching someone at random. So, I think it serves a purpose, and I know several couples who met through online dating. It's especially helpful for people who have very specific interests, like my friend who loves art and classical music. He had a much harder time in the "real" world finding women who enjoyed the concerts and events that he likes to attend, but he found someone online, and they've been together for 2 years.
lovelysoul at November 17, 2010 11:46 AM
@Steamer, I get the part about the high school dance. Yes, the dating world is hard on young guys, that's for sure.
And it's funny you mention this because there were a couple of times when I wondered whether these men were so rejecting because of their own experience of rejection. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm not everyone's cup of tea, but to have an expression of disgust on your face? Yikes! That's a situation that's just not doing it for me.
I think younger people are more used to the idea of using technology to help them with life. So the idea of a hook-up over the internet may not seem so heavy-handed a deal for them.
But it's like I said earlier, people tend to gravitate toward the positive and away from the negative, and that's what happened with me. I'm not against online dating at all--I just think the demographics where I'm living are such that meeting men by just getting out there works better for me.
As a matter of fact, I think geography may also have a lot to do with it. If you're in a city where it's easy to meet people (which I am) the composition of the online dating pool is probably far different from, let's say, a less friendly city. (And I'm not using "less friendly" in a derogatory way; some cities are just like that.)
And, Lovelysoul, meeting someone "at random" isn't generally what happens out in the world. Usually people meet up because they are interested in the same things. Like outdoor activities like golf or skiing, or photography, etc. There's a naturalness in getting to know someone in that kind of setting and that's what I prefer. And it's all about preferences, right?
ie at November 17, 2010 1:19 PM
Put on your profile, "And might I add, no fat chicks." Problem solved.
Thag Jones at November 17, 2010 1:19 PM
Being very specific about what you're looking for is probably a good strategy for women, but it doesn't work for men. There aren't many physically attractive women on dating sites. It doesn't make sense to be too restrictive. You don't care that she's a catholic and you're a lutheran, or whatever. You're just hoping that she's nice and that you get along. Really dating after forty for men is a game of trying to find women that you can stand to see naked.
mike at November 17, 2010 1:23 PM
Women you approach in public are usually much more polite than women you meet online. There's
something about online dating that makes people nasty and boorish.
I'd given up dating online when I recognized that it was causing me to have a negative attitude towards women generally.
Thanks for saying this JJ. I too was getting a negative attitude (towards men) and that's one of the main reasons I stopped.
ie at November 17, 2010 1:58 PM
@Lovelysoul - I can see your point about people with very narrow interests, or those who want to weed out everyone who doesn't fit their criteria exactly. I don't doubt at all that many people have found dates online who they like and with whom they are very compatible.
On the other hand, if one absolutely loves art and classical music, couldn't one try to meet people at museums and the symphony? (Though I grant that the number of single women I see in those venues is rather small.)
In any case, I didn't stop online dating because I felt rejected. It was that I was rejecting a much higher proportion of women I met online than those I met "in real life." Thus, it wasn't an efficient use of time for me. But, then again, I don't have uber-stringent criteria regarding mutual interests, and generally prefer to learn those other things (profession, politics, religion, etc.) as a natural part of getting to know someone. Even if we don't turn out to be compatible, I usually enjoy the process, and I'm in no particular hurry anyway.
MikeInRealLife at November 17, 2010 2:03 PM
Do fat chicks think "maybe once he sees my winning personality he won't mind that I'm fat"? I think I'd rather just put up honest pictures and have people message me who actually like my pics, not wonder if upon seeing what I really look like they'll run away screaming. It's like guys lying about the size of their members - all you get that way are sluts anyway, then when the slut sees you're 4" less than you said, she is going to say, "like, eww" but then, I suppose you'll at least get laid so who cares.
Oh what fun it all is! Oy vey. This is why when I've put up profiles, I'm just honest about myself. It does work - I've had a few messages expressing appreciation for my honesty. I don't see the point in lies really, not if you're looking for an actual adult relationship. Too many try-hards on dating sites. Just go out for crimmeny's sake. Take a risk and be honest.
Really dating after forty for men is a game of trying to find women that you can stand to see naked.
Or finding a man who isn't fat and bald. I find most people my age look older than I do by quite a bit - it's scary!
Thag Jones at November 17, 2010 2:14 PM
Being rejected frequently will give anyone a negative attitude towards whichever gender is rejecting them.
ie, it sounds to me that your profile wasn't representing you very well. Somehow, the guys you were meeting were expecting you to look or be very different. That's why having accurate photos is so important.
That rarely happened to me. Not that I hit it off with every guy, but I never got looks of disgust because I had about 10 photos of me that truly reflected what I look like - even in a bathing suit - so there was less chance of the guy being disappointed, at least on those grounds.
I agree that if you live in an area where it's easier to meet a lot of single people, that's a better way to go.
lovelysoul at November 17, 2010 2:15 PM
For some reason, all this talk of the difference between on line and real life is reminding me of Camille Paglia.
I can read her speeches and her books and enjoy and relate to what she has to say.
Then I saw her on television and she talked so fast and so vehemently that I was a little put off. I couldn't imagine having an actual conversation with her without feeling steamrolled.
Have any of you online daters met someone whose online conversation you really enjoyed, and they looked like their pictures, but then they met you and started talking it all went to hell?
Another Friends and Chandler reference: When his old girlfriend showed up and had the most annoying laugh in the world.
Pricklypear at November 17, 2010 2:26 PM
"Have any of you online daters met someone whose online conversation you really enjoyed, and they looked like their pictures, but then they met you and started talking it all went to hell?"
For me, it would be mostly on the phone. The person's voice or manner or speaking just wouldn't match their photos. They'd look youthful, but sound really old, or look healthy and have that raspy voice of an alcoholic.
One guy (I found out) was actually using someone else's photos, which I've heard that some women do too. My friend (who found his gf online) actually saw photos on some woman's profile that actually belonged to another woman he had dated.
It's pretty easy to steal photos from other people's profiles. That's why it's good to ask for recent, follow up photos.
lovelysoul at November 17, 2010 2:36 PM
>> Or finding a man who isn't fat and bald. I find most people my age look older than I do by quite a bit - it's scary!
That's a fair point. Truthfully most people look like crap.
Speaking of ugly people, have you ever been to Philadelphia? That's where I live, so maybe my views are biased. The Philadelphia region has the least attractive people in the USA, according to some study that was conducted. You'd swear that people here go out of their way to look bad. It's almost comical. My friends from out of town have joked that Philadelphians age in dog years. Everybody look ten or more years older than they actually are. People here think that I'm in my late twenties, and I'm actually forty.
mike at November 17, 2010 2:54 PM
@lovelysoul, a photographer friend took the photos with the knowledge I was going to be using them for online dating (which btw, is how she had met her then-husband). So we did the photos and, miracle of miracles, they were great.
I am so unphotogenic, it's insane, but these were nice and we had the body shots too, and so I don't think there was anything misleading about them. They were current and untouched (no airbrushing), and they were a clear representation of who I am. I use them on facebook and always get compliments.
However, most of my friends agree that I look better in person, so the whole enterprise was surprising and, of course, really disappointing. Everytime I met someone, I always walked away wondering why I was bothering.
My girlfriend had some similar experiences and since I'm not talking about myself, I don't mind saying she's really good looking. She's tall, blond, and is an active equestrian so is in killer shape, etc. But some guys did this to her too. They show up and look like something unpleasant just crawled up their nostrils.
Now that I think of it, however, I do think there's something to the geographic angle.
ie at November 17, 2010 3:00 PM
"People here think that I'm in my late twenties, and I'm actually forty."
Some folks are lucky that way. Reminds me of a guy I used to know. If he had a moustache and glasses, he was gorgeous but looked mature and serious. If he shaved and wore his contacts, he was a little boy.
Both personas were gorgeous. And of course, he was a total bastard either way. The wimmins were all over him.
Pricklypear at November 17, 2010 3:17 PM
They show up and look like something unpleasant just crawled up their nostrils.
That's the sort of thing that I'm talking about. It's behavior that's so out of line that you assume that something is wrong with the person. I used to have women sit there and go through a list of the things that they didn't like about me based on my profile. I never understood why they thought that I'd want to listen to that. If you don't like someone, don't go out with them again. There's no reason to embarrass them.
jj price at November 17, 2010 3:46 PM
@jj, yeah, that's why I don't think the "recon" thing that my girlfriend and I did was all THAT bad. I mean, I would text or call the guy, say I couldn't make it and then put him off again later with a polite-sounding excuse. The men weren't aware they'd been seen, so I felt it was a case of "no harm, no foul." And I had agreed to meet with them quickly, before a sort of online correspondence began (so there would be fewer expectations).
Anyway, I still think it's better than turning up and acting badly. That's definitely more hurtful, in my opinion.
ie at November 17, 2010 4:40 PM
First dates should be of short duration, inexpensive and local.
If the person is not to your taste, for whatever reason, try to enjoy the meeting anyways. Big or small, everyone has something interesting to occupy you for an hour or less. Even if they won't be your lover, they can be an engaging way to spend a brief amount of time. Like people-watching at the food court at the mall.
After all, most people you meet won't end up in your bed but this person at least has several similar interests outside of that arena.
LauraGr at November 17, 2010 5:08 PM
@LauraGr: I don't know if you were referring to my post, but I said earlier that my girlfriend and I did this because so many of the men misrepresented themselves.
There is an food court a two-minute indoor walk away from where we work. She would show me a photo of the guy and then ask me to make a sweep past to see if he looked like the photo. She had a lot more experience than I did and so when I tried, I took her advice and she sometimes did the same for me.
Everyone does have something interesting to say and if I'm on a train or in some other public space and feel like chatting, that's the attitude I take. But this is a meeting for possible relationship and I don't always feel like oing that, especially when I can see that the person has told a great whopping lie.
The one overweight guy I met was easily 60 to 70 pounds heavier than his photo. He also looked rough, like maybe he was drinking (or doing something) too much. The difference between the photo and the reality was extreme. It's like I said, if he hadn't had flaming red hair, I wouldn't have recognized him.
The other 3 or 4 were obviously much older than they said. They looked as if they were nearing retirement age. I was still in the middle of my career life and I wasn't interested in pairing up with someone who was so obviously at a different stage of life (and besides, what did they have against pairing up with women their own age, huh?).
I don't know what to say other than that I see zero point in hooking up with someone who is so obviously lying. None.
You know, after you hit a certain age, your friends start having different expectationsof you, especially around what they'll let you bitch about. If I get together with an obvious liar and then later complain that he was dishonest about something bigger, guess what? My friends are going to ask me if I had any warnings, if I saw any red flags. And if I did, guess what again? They're not going to be sympathetic and I know this because I wouldn't be sympathetic either. I would say, "you saw he was a liar right from the start. Why did you think things were going to get better?"
My approach may sound a tad harsh, but I'm not interested in wasting my time with someone who can't be bothered being honest with me. It's pretty simple.
ie at November 17, 2010 5:26 PM
Absolutely, LauraGr. Just because someone isn't right for you as a lover doesn't mean they can't be your friend.
Today, I got an e-mail from a guy I met only once (he was too old for me), but he and I have stayed in touch. He's a financial advisor and has been quite helpful. Also, another guy I met, but never really dated, turned out to be almost like a brother to me. We discovered we had so much in common, and whenever we chatted on IM, we could almost finish each other's sentences. He married a couple of years ago and just had a baby. We stay in touch constantly on Facebook.
In fact, I was just looking at his photos and wondering why I ever ruled him out...the more I've grown to know him, the more I've come to adore him.
I think I was infatuated with some other guy at the time and just didn't see the romantic potential with him. But, if I wasn't already getting married, and he was still single, I'd definitely date him. Sometimes, people do become a lot more attractive after you get to know them.
lovelysoul at November 17, 2010 5:28 PM
The obvious solution is to date fat chicks, if they are 80 percent of the dating pool.
They have three holes like any other girl, and doggy style is fun. You can spank those big reddening bottoms hard, and because of the layer of fat, the pain is diminished.
Give the fatty a good, long roll, and you have made a friend for life.
BOTU at November 17, 2010 5:58 PM
While i agree with Amy about first meetings or first "dates" being kept short, i do not agree that you cannot question an internet connection about their picture. There is nothing wrong in this day and age with confirming the person's stats, and this includes the date the picture was taken, and if it is anything more than 1 yr old, asking for a more up-to-date picture. People who withhold current pics are hiding something. There are enough horror stories around to dissuade anyone from meeting a person who has no pic on their profile, or someone who has a pic that was taken 10 yrs ago.
I know a guy who met his date in a coffee shop and was shocked at her appearance. She jokingly told him that the pic on her profile was her daughter. Not only is this dishonest, it is surely a criminal act that she is posing as her daughter on the internet dating site. I wonder if her daughter knows... Needless to say, it was the last date too. Sounds outrageous, but there's lots of dishonest peeps out there.
Anyway, if my "date" showed up as short, fat, and bald, whereas in his pic, he was tall, athletic, and had a full head of hair, i would get up and leave. I would not grace him with an hour of idle chat over a cup of coffee if he can't be upfront and honest in his online profile. If you can't be honest from square one, then what's the point?
BTW: i'm into bald, but i'm not into short or fat. But mostly, i'm into honesty, which really is the best policy. And ~no~ it would not irk me in the least if someone asked me for confirmation on my profile pic. I yams who i yams.
Bluejean Baby at November 17, 2010 7:53 PM
One more BTW: if the date in question said he was bald and showed up with a full head of hair, i would be equally suspicious. Just sayin'. Dishonesty is dishonesty, no matter how you cut it.
Bluejean Baby at November 17, 2010 7:59 PM
Has anyone tried speed dating? I tried it a few times 5-6 years ago, and some of the women I came across were downright rude. It makes online dating seem polite by comparison.
MIOnline at November 17, 2010 8:00 PM
"One more BTW: if the date in question said he was bald and showed up with a full head of hair, i would be equally suspicious. Just sayin'. Dishonesty is dishonesty, no matter how you cut it."
Maybe he joined the hair club for men. :)
Seriously, that would never happen. It would be like a woman with new boobs posting her flat-chested photos.
lovelysoul at November 17, 2010 8:06 PM
@ lovelysoul 8:06 p.m. "mabye he joined the hair club for men"... well, if he did, then it would have had to have been after his last online conversation with me and before our first meeting, and if he didn't mention his major implant surgery, then it is still a sin of omission or somewhat questionable, right? Of course, if a year went by with no communication between us, then i can see it could happen that way.
But i get your comparison of the hair club guy and the new boob-ed girl photos... who would complain about their first date's self-improvement agenda?... but still, dishonesty is dishonesty, no matter how you cut it.
A guy i met from an online dating site who said he was a non-smoker turned out to be an active smoker. He got kind of nasty with me on our first "date" when we were in the coffee shop for over an hour. Of course, i had no idea it was his nicotine addiction causing the behavioural shift, and i made my assumptions, but then he finally came out and admitted that he's a smoker, it made sense... but that was the end of the line for us. Not only can i not handle the stench of cigarettes, i also can not handle the deception he started out with by proclaiming he is a non-smoker when he is clearly addicted. Why would someone do that?... start out with a lie.
And a footnote: There are some men out there who absolutely *hate* fake boobs and won't date women who have had that surgery.
Bluejean Baby at November 17, 2010 8:25 PM
@MikeInRealLife - "I also think that women often operate under the mistaken assumption that all men will date/sleep with any woman who is still breathing."
When I was a young man, I was willing to sleep with anything that moved. Now that I'm older, I figure "why limit myself?" -- Emo Phillips
jonQpublic at November 17, 2010 11:50 PM
@Bluejean Baby - "There are some men out there who absolutely *hate* fake boobs and won't date women who have had that surgery."
Amen! I'm one of those men.
jonQpublic at November 18, 2010 12:02 AM
Amen! And I'm one of those natural women.
But, I was just saying that the first thing anyone would do if they got hair or implants would be to change their profile photos. Unless you just happened to come along during that transition period, it's unlikely to occur.
I don't know why anyone would lie about smoking, unless he had quit, or tried to quit, when he first wrote his profile. A number of my friends seem to quit smoking periodically, then start up again when life gets stressful. They may consider themselves non-smokers during the times when they're not actually smoking, but it's usually just a period of struggling against their addiction.
Many people lie about drinking, as in either too much or too little. One woman I know almost never drinks, but she found that she got virtually no interest until she changed her profile to say "social drinker". Being a teetotaler apparently isn't broadly appealing, and if someone puts that they don't drink at all, it's often assumed that they're in AA.
ie, I think your friend didn't do enough prescreening before agreeing to meet. When I first started, I met almost everybody that I thought, just from their profile, and maybe an e-mail or two, would be nice. But, as MonicaP said, the goal isn't to have a lot of dates.
After some disappointments, I got a webcam, and I also started asking for more photos. By the time I met somebody, I had a pretty good idea what they looked like, so there were no major surprises, like fat or bald.
Still, the in-person chemistry is just so unpredictable. You can't tell that from photos or a grainy webcam visual.
lovelysoul at November 18, 2010 4:35 AM
The problem my friend and I had was that we put our real ages in our profiles...late 40s. And consequently we attracted a lot men in their 60s and 70s. The vast majority of THOSE men lied and said they were younger. It's not hard to tell a 50 year old from a 60 or 65 year old, and so that's why my friend and I checked the guys out first.
About a third of the men who contacted were age-correct for us. There was also, surprisingly, a second third made up of much younger guys (like early late 20s or 30s) who contacted us as well. Then about a third of the men were seniors or close to.
I discounted the younger men because I prefer someone close to my own age. It was the same with the much older men. The younger men were easier to turn down because they didn't lie about their ages on their profiles.
When my mom wintered in Florida, she stayed in a gated community where there were a lot of seniors. My mom was friendly so had them over for coffee a lot. My mom made a point of bringing something to my attention: a lot of the women who had married older men were now resentful of these men.
They had made second marriages or married late, and their now much older husbands had mobility problems or other illnesses and the women were stuck at home taking care of them. They were "nurses" in their golden years, a role which, quite frankly, a lot of them didn't care for. And, a lot of these men had adult children who were more than happy to let these (now ageing) wives take on that role more or less completely. They said they felt marooned and came over to my mom's to bitch about it.
My mom, who is one smart cookie, made sure I heard what these women had to say. And she did this because she said things to me like "You're still young; find someone who can still give you an active sex life and who you won't end up caring for." After hearing these women complain, I took their advice to heart, which is why I wasn't interested in the older men who responded to my profile.
It's the same with my friend. So that's another reason why we checked the men out in advance. I think ruling them out the way we did was fair enough, especially when it became clear that so many of them were being dishonest.
ie at November 18, 2010 4:59 AM
Ie, I hear you. My ex was 15 yrs older than me, and I knew I didn't want that kind of age gap again. I saw a lot of younger "trophy wives" end up in the very situation your mom described.
So, I put it straight in my profile...that I wanted someone "reasonably close to me in age". I think at one point I said no more than 10 yrs older.
I had some older (late 50s/60s) men write me and criticize that I was discriminatory or something, which is silly. We're all shopping based on our own preferences. I usually wrote back that I wouldn't tell him he couldn't date a 40 yr old, so don't tell me that I can't. lol
lovelysoul at November 18, 2010 5:18 AM
I saw a lot of younger "trophy wives" end up in the very situation your mom described.
They should give the money back and get on with their lives. Poor things.
earnest at November 18, 2010 8:03 AM
If they're nursing an old man for years, they're earning every penny.
lovelysoul at November 18, 2010 8:10 AM
In defense of older men, you have to consider that there's no one else for them to date. Women their age are no longer interested in sex, or men even. So what are they supposed to do?
I'd seen this with my mom's brother. He'd lost his wife when he was in his early fifties and it took a while before he was ready to date again. When he did start trying to meet people, he couldn't find any women who were still interested in men 'in that way'. So he started approaching women in their 40's. We kidded him about robbing the cradle, and I could tell that he was a little embarrassed by it. But I certainly wasn't going to scold him about how he should stay alone so that some woman didn't have to take care of him on his deathbed.
His current girlfriend is probably approaching fifty, and they seem good together. He's a very active guy and she's able to keep up with him. That was the other problem he'd encountered, is that a lot of the women he was meeting were very settled and on their way to grandmotherville.
jimena at November 18, 2010 8:52 AM
>> If they're nursing an old man for years, they're earning every penny.
lovelysoul where do you live that wives are still stuck caring for indigent old men? Because I work in geriatric care administration, and don't see the pattern that you're describing. This may have been true thirty years ago, but it's not usually the case any longer.
lola at November 18, 2010 9:00 AM
Lola, I live in FL. lol And I was responding to ie, whose mom saw that living in a retirement community here in my state, I believe.
I have a sister-in-law who is 20 years younger than my BIL. He's a lawyer, and they do a lot of traveling, so she has a comfortable life in many ways, but she's also spent a fair amount of their 10 yr marriage in hospitals. He's had heart problems and now has a pacemaker. I know he has to take viagra to have sex.
She loves him, but sometimes I wonder if this is what she really signed on for while still in her 40s. It's just something younger women don't often consider seriously enough when they're swept off their feet by an older man. I think ie's mom was giving great advice.
lovelysoul at November 18, 2010 9:34 AM
Most men don't 'sign on' to their wives becoming asexual hobbit-like creatures after menopause, but that's what typically happens.
You seem to have a mercenary attitude towards marriage.
earnest at November 18, 2010 10:00 AM
No, I'm just realistic. If a couple is around the same age, they both should be going through the same things around the same time. A 50+ yr old guy should obviously realize his 50+ yr old wife will be going through menopause...about the same time his testoterone levels drop significantly and he's not able to perform the way he once did.
A man or woman who is in their 40s caring for an aged spouse in their 60s is a much sadder scenario. You just don't see that as often because men rarely marry older women.
lovelysoul at November 18, 2010 10:21 AM
I'm not saying a woman should never marry an older man, but she needs to be deeply in love with him and feel she could care for him, without resentment, if he becomes sick or incapacitated because that is quite likely.
What ie's mom was saying is very true. These younger wives are still vibrant and active, and many feel resentful.
I've noticed a change in my SIL, who is in her 40s and still very attractive. She has men her own age interested in her, yet she's stuck caring for a sickly older man. My guess is that their marriage won't last. The dynamics of an older spouse/much younger spouse just usually doesn't work long-term.
lovelysoul at November 18, 2010 10:40 AM
Never been on a date where I hated the person. Been on plenty where there wasn't attraction, but I could still get to know the person. My attitude was, "Hey, if he and I don't hit him off, maybe I can keep him in mind for a friend". Never met anyone I wouldn't set up with a friend if I thought their interests and tastes were compatible.
If you're meeting tons of jerks, you should reevaluate your screening process.
NicoleK at November 18, 2010 10:56 AM
@lola, I get what you're saying. I'm visiting my mom in her nursing home and I don't see a lot of younger wives hanging around. Maybe they leave before things get to that point? Or maybe it's because I was in Florida--where retirees are concentrated--that I saw what my mom was talking about.
Another aspect of the situation that's interesting is that a lot of these women were also resentful of their older spouse's adult children. A few of them said that the men had sons and daughters who were keeping a close watch on the finances and so things like paying for homecare (for respite) was something that they weren't being allowed to dip into their spouse's savings for.
In one instance, a woman friend of my mom's was married to an older man who had a lawyer son. When this woman's husband was diagnosed with Alzheimer's this son tied up all the man's financial resources (apart from his pension) in long-term investments that had stiff penalities for early withdrawal.
The son did this, my mom's friend believed, to prevent her from using it for her husband's care. The son wanted to save it for his own inheritance. So my mom's friend was dipping in her savings and going back to work part time to pay for her husband's medical expenses.
After a couple of years of working herself nearly to death, she very reluctantly filed separation papers and a year later divorced the man. She didn't want to be divorced because she still loved him, but she was concerned about her health and her future and had children she wanted to bequeath money to as well.
Around this time he stopped recognizing her, and so she placed him in a home as soon as the divorce papers came though. Financial responsibility for him reverted to the children, who had to pay penalties to get at his money, and they were apparently livid, threatening lawsuits, etc.
It was really sad. This woman loved him--it was obvious--but couldn't support him without financial help. The sadder thing of course is that the money was there.
Anyway, this woman was a good friend of my mom's and so I got a close up view of just one of the things that can go wrong. It's clear this man's kids saw this woman as a golddigger and a really punitive way, went out of their way to make her suffer.
ie at November 18, 2010 11:20 AM
Ie, that's really sad, but I think it's quite common. A lovely friend of ours was with a guy for 25 yrs or so. We always assumed they were married. He got Alzheimers too, and she cared for him until the end. Turns out they never legally married, so the grown kids kicked her out of the house. She was left with virtually nothing after all their years together, and lots of money that she put into things, like the home and his care.
lovelysoul at November 18, 2010 12:19 PM
Yeah...my mom lived in this very tight little community in Lakeland, Fla., and I remember the story because this woman's daughters (about 30 and 32) were down visiting for Christmas and, when they saw the condition their mother was in, ended up staging an intervention of sorts. I was visiting my mom at the same time.
My mom had offered the woman a lot of support and so the daughters asked her to be in on the intervention. This woman was 56 and her husband was 74 and they had only been married for about four years when he was diagnosed.
Anyway, he had apparently been a very nice man, but his son was obviously a devious little shit (excuse me, but that's the only fitting description). He and the other siblings were clearly putting both the caregiving and financial burden on her. Not nice.
ie at November 18, 2010 1:30 PM
@NicoleK. I changed my screening parameters a few times, but if someone is lying to attract younger women, it's not going to make a difference.
@earnest: Making commonsense decisions about who to marry is not mercenary. The women my mom had over for coffee were younger, yes, but mostly in the same economic bracket as their husbands.
Some of them had to give up jobs they enjoyed to stay home and look after sick husbands. They didn't like the isolation. They didn't like playing nurse-maid. They were still relatively young and felt cloistered. They were frustrated. They resented their much older husbands. It happens.
ie at November 18, 2010 2:50 PM
And this is why once my heath deteriorates past a certain point I am eating a gun, that or a morphine insulin cocktail
lujlp at November 18, 2010 3:32 PM
I'm of mixed opinion on the age issue. It works for many couples, but there obviously are considerations regarding their relative phases of life. Truthfully it's much easier for a 55 year old to take care of a 75 year old than it is for two 75 year olds to take care of each other. Men tend to die younger in either case, so it's something that most married women are going to have to deal with eventually.
Age differences are much more of an issue in the states. People here have kind of a taboo against marrying anyone more than a few years older or younger. My parents are from Honduras where ten years is nothing. It's not unusual for couples to be twenty years apart, though more than that isn't common.
lola at November 18, 2010 5:05 PM
I mean no disrespect Lola, but women from third world countries have fewer choices, which probably makes them more tolerant. The freedom to have more choices is why they immigrate, sometimes even as mail-order brides, to countries like the US and Canada.
ie at November 18, 2010 6:52 PM
You married women make me blow chunks. What part of ". . .in sickness or in health . . ." don't you understand? I see women balking all the time at pre-nups that keep the gold mine at a distance, so why don't you make the old man sign a sickness/take-care-of-him exclusion before you tie the knot around his wallet? It's plain here that you (and your buds/mums) women pay as much attention to the marriage vows as politicians pay to their oath of office. Double-chunk. And it's open wide for chunky . . .
Yep, that's right, don't forget that 1/3 of women and men (in the USA) are obese, 1/3 are overweight and only 1/3 are of proper weight or under, so it's 2-1 you'll get a tub on-line or in-person. Don't reply if you can't fit into my 29" waist pants.
Jay J. Hector at November 19, 2010 5:34 AM
@JJ: taking care of a sick person is hard. I had my disabled mother in my home for 20 months and I can tell you that looking after someone who needs their adult diaper changed on a regular basis is not for sissies. Unless you've done it yourself, you're in no position to criticize.
The one situation I described was particularly difficult because the man HAD the money to pay for live-in help. His son, yes, a MAN, was deliberately tying up his father's money, effectively forcing his younger wife to go back out to work and take care of him at the same time. I had live-in help and I can tell you straight out that I don't know how on earth this woman managed.
If you want to blow chunks, blow them in the direction of some of these adult kids who automatically assume dad's new wife is a gold-digger.
Yeah, that should make you popular among the waiting-for-my-inheritance crowd.
ie at November 19, 2010 8:23 AM
Yeah, ie. The really ugly, golddigging ones are usually the kids. It's not THEIR money. Half the time, they don't even visit the parent, much less care for them, yet they still expect an inheritance.
I don't expect anything from my parents. If they leave me something, great, but if they prefer to leave their money to a companion or spouse who made their golden years happier, so be it. That's their choice.
lovelysoul at November 19, 2010 9:00 AM
Boy, JJH, it's a good thing you're not bitter.
ie is right; I work an 8 hour shift at the hospital taking care of someone's every need and it's exhausting. But it's a job, and we're there to help people who lack the education and qualifications to fulfill that which you think falls within the parameters of "in sickness and in health". I'd love to see my grandma try to put in a Foley catheter or clear a clogged PICC line for my grandpa just because you think highly skilled nursing care was a subtext of her wedding vows. Or vice versa, since I'm sure you didn't mean to exclude men from being held to the same standard. Oh wait....where is it? Oh, THERE it is!!! "You married women make me blow chunks." Guess you did. Well, let's borrow your broad brush to paint some generalizations with then, shall we? Look at what Terry Schiavo's husband did to her.
Goes both ways, so before you get your nutsack twisted up like a dusty old pretzel, you might want to step back and reconsider before you hit that SUBMIT button.
Juliana at November 19, 2010 9:25 AM
I think that JJ is that BOTU guy.
IE my family in Honduras is relatively affluent. No one is marrying out of desperation.
The age gap for married couples in the US is one of the smallest of any country. I think that it's about two years. This is true of other Anglo countries as well. Elsewhere it's a little over five years. Which means that there's a significant proportion of marriages with differences of ten years, and even fifteen. So it's not just a third world thing. The US just has different social expectation when it comes to marriage.
lola at November 19, 2010 9:27 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/11/as-fat-would-ha.html#comment-1785114">comment from JulianaLook at what Terry Schiavo's husband did to her.
Note to Gregg and the universe: if ever I'm a human turnip in a bed, please do the same to me. (Also see signed, witness note in wallet and in file cabinet saying same.)
Amy Alkon at November 19, 2010 10:10 AM
Two of my best friends met online and she didn't like him at all as a potential date. They are both great people, she just had a lot of complications at the time.
A few years later, they met at work and she thought he was great in person, then figured out who he was long before he figured it out. They have been seeing each other for almost a year now.
Suki at November 19, 2010 10:11 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/11/as-fat-would-ha.html#comment-1785117">comment from Amy AlkonOh, and there's a little note on there, too, saying please donate my organs.
Amy Alkon at November 19, 2010 10:11 AM
@lola, I wasn't making a personal swipe at you or your family. It was a generalization. Hope you understood that.
ie at November 19, 2010 1:27 PM
IE don't worry, no offense. In certain latin countries they do marry off very young women to older men, like Mexico.
lola at November 19, 2010 1:44 PM
@suki: Two of my best friends met online and she didn't like him at all as a potential date. They are both great people, she just had a lot of complications at the time.
A few years later, they met at work and she thought he was great in person, then figured out who he was long before he figured it out. They have been seeing each other for almost a year now.
This is interesting. It sounds like part of the change was timing and whatever her circumstances were initially, but I think this also speaks to something I encountered in online dating: it seemed to me that the online context put people in mind of shopping, looking for some sort of deal or bargain, for the perfect "purchase" if you will, which is a very different approach than the way you simply find out who a person is when you happen to meet them in a real life context. I found online dating to be really fake and icky.
trina at November 21, 2010 7:35 AM
LW: Try to join a gym. There are plenty of fit women there, and you're meeting them face-to-face, where a size 14 cannot deceive you with a size 4 picture.
mpetrie98 at November 21, 2010 1:59 PM
I was interested in online dating, hoping to post a picture and profile once my pimply face finally clears up, BUT, given what LW and ie just said, I think I'll continue working on my face so that I can meet women face to face, in various places, so I won't wind up with a bunch of disappointing dates with grossly overweight women.
Dr. House is right: people lie.
mpetrie98 at November 21, 2010 2:05 PM
@ie: It's amazing how badly people will behave when money comes into the picture. My grandmother took care of her husband when he was dying. She neglected herself at the end and ended up in the hospital for a week. During that week, his kids came into the house and took things that they considered "theirs" (like the TV) and drained her bank account (my mom and one of his daughters had cosign authority on the account). They had been married 25 years when he died. I don't think I'm naive about human perfidy, but this still shocks me when I think about it.
Astra at November 23, 2010 6:39 AM
I tried online dating for a while and met a few really nice guys. I always went overboard on how overweight I was and that if they were looking for some little skinny barbie type I was NOT what they wanted.
Then when they met me actually ready for a hugely big girl they were pleasantly surprised that I wasn't nearly as big as I made myself out to be. I had a friend years ago who said "to make myself look GOOD, I just go stand by a REALLY fat chick, and I look awesome in comparison".
When I met these gentlemen we had coffee, chatted, and went our own ways. I gave honest evaluation, "You're not a guy I would date" or "You are a guy I would date so if you feel the same, balls in your court. If not, I was looking for a date when I met you!"
There were a few 2nd and 3rd dates, am still friends 4 years later with one gentleman although the romantic part didn't really work for us. Ultimately my Mr. Right met me without the assistance of the internet.
LW says he's disappointed in how many women lie about these details. It's not just the girls telling the big fibs to get to that icebreaker coffee. Try being honest yourself. Tell her you're not interested if it's gag at first sight, and go. Worse to stay and try hide your disgust. If you're going to be that picky, be that honest at least.
Tori at November 24, 2010 12:58 PM
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