Looking For The Gaia Next Door
I'm an Occupy girl, age 45, into eco-shamanism and planetary consciousness stuff. I've mostly dated engineers with a playful side who initially seemed open to my interests but quickly became resentful of them. My boyfriend of two years is different -- easygoing and willing to expand his horizons. He actually reads the articles I post on Facebook and discusses them with me. We laugh effortlessly and are very giving to each other, but I can't shake the feeling that I should look for somebody more my type (more artistically, politically, and spiritually inclined). I fantasize about meeting an artistic shamanic guy who is gorgeous and open and shares my sense of purpose, but the truth is, guys in my social milieu can be very competitive, neurotic, and immature. I guess my question is: If you can IMAGINE a better partner, does that mean you should break up?
--Restless
These guys you dated probably believed they were open-minded...until they were invited by their eco-shamanistic girlfriend to something like the "Embrace of the Earth" rite, in which participants spend the night in a grave they dig themselves. As refreshing as you may find it to "tap into the earth's restorative energies," their first thought probably went something like "Thanks, I'll take the night on the 800 thread count, slave-labor-made sheets. Could you turn on my electric blanket, please, before you go?"
If a guy thinks a girl's hot, he'll buy into whatever her trip is for as long as he can. My steak-loving boyfriend once dated a militant vegan. (He'd hit the Burger King drive-through on his way home.) Obviously, it's a problem if you go out with some engineer dude, tell him you're an "Occupy girl," and he says, "Wow, my company designs the water cannons the police use to spray you people." But, your current restlessness may stem from the notion that it's a great big drum circle out there with a lot of chakra healer-boys and past-life counselors in it.
Having a lot of choice sounds great, but research by social psychologist Dr. Sheena Iyengar suggests that most people get overwhelmed when they have more than a handful of options. Essentially, when it seems the sky's the limit, we're prone to keep looking skyward. We end up not choosing at all, or we choose poorly and end up dissatisfied. A solution for this is "satisficing," a strategy from economist Herbert Simon of committing to the "good-enough" choice -- instead of marching off on a never-ending search for spiritually evolved, Burning Man-certified perfection.
Sure, you can probably find your eco-shamanistic cloneboy -- a guy who'll take the initiative in signing you both up for "soul retrieval training" when you worry that you forgot yours at Macy's in a past life. But then maybe he'll go all hateful on you on the way home about whether to save the whales or go to the movies. The longer your list of must-haves in a man, the more you shrink your pool of potential partners. Your own appeal is also a factor, and it's probably narrowed by things like not being 22 and your plumpitude, if any. Consider whether it's possible to have friends be your spiritual colleagues and have that be enough. You can wish for the gorgeous, artistic, shamanic perfect man -- along with world peace and all the hemp bacon you can eat. But, maybe the realistic man is your sweet spiritual trainee who is fun and giving, dutifully rinses off his used foil, and smiles and pulls the Prius over when you tell him that your spirit animal needs to pee.
Sounds like she has a catch. She should keep him. There's not a big market out there for middle aged hippies. PLus, no one person can be everything to you. Expecting someone to be is mandating disappointment.
momof4 at March 20, 2012 5:01 PM
mmmm....hemp bacon.
Cat at March 20, 2012 5:58 PM
I can barely stand to wade through your letter. Your boyfriend, on top of his other virtues, is a man who will actually read your Facebook posts and discuss them with you. What you have there is a jewel. Hang on to him.
rm at March 20, 2012 6:48 PM
You sound like a friend of mine, always dating engineers even having a few serious relationships While her head was in the clouds and they had his feet and head firmly in reality.
Now you can always be looking for something better something more "spiritual, artistic, and political" or you can grow up and talk to him about your reservations and both of you can come to a conclusion together about your relationship.
As one older cause driven woman to a younger cause driven woman you will not find many men in your circles who want to have a forever woman. They have young little groupies feeding their spiritual, artistic egos. They tend to find a younger egg layer to give them children once they reach their late 40's and early 50's. Then the younger woman leaves them and they find a nurse. A couple of head in the air people do not make a good couple.
Take a look at what you have, many women would give anything for a giving man with a sense of humor who seems to be crazy about you. If that does not make you stop yearning for more, I think you need to find a counselor who will help you determine if you will always yearn for more no matter what OR if you really are not fulfilled in this relationship. If you are not fulfilled, do both of you a favor and end the relationship so he can find someone who will appreciate him for who he is.
Worthita at March 20, 2012 7:09 PM
I find it interesting she's fantasizing about finding a man more her type, when she's (seemingly) never dated a man of that type before. LW, why were you attracted to all those engineers who became resentful? And did you have that nagging feeling with any of them? I'm betting not. Sometimes it's easier to know the guy isn't right for you than to dip your toe into the pool of maybe-he-is-or-maybe-there's-somebody-better-oh-God-am-I-screwing-up-my-life.
My guess is you don't really want a guy that's your supposed ideal. Sounds like Current Guy could be just the right mix for you: spiritual and willing to discuss it with you, yet steady enough to challenge you when you're in danger of floating away (which is probably why you went for those engineers, by the way). My advice is to focus on what's in front of you rather than what you could have if all the planets align and make like the Rockettes at Christmas. Figure out if this guy is right without dragging hypothetical guys into it.
NumberSix at March 20, 2012 9:00 PM
"If you can IMAGINE a better partner, does that mean you should break up?"
That's a valid question. Fortunately, it has an easy answer. No.
If I was dating Dolly Parton, I could still imagine a woman with bigger tits.
Do you suppose your current boyfriend could imagine a more suitable woman? He can. To love someone is to love that person and all that comes with them. It sounds like this guy is willing to embrace and love an awful lot of that hippy-dippy bullshit and he's even able to find it endearing.
Don't be an idiot.
whistleDick at March 20, 2012 10:05 PM
This woman ought to thank whatever gods she worships that she found a man who can stand her silly BS.
Some women won't tolerate a good man for very long. When they get a good guy in their life they lose interest quickly, and start driving the guy away. They'll slow down or discontinue sex and crank up the bitching. The other engineers she dated became resentful? Of course they did, the girl stopped loving them and probably acted like a nasty shrew with a superior attitude.
Male bloggers like Roissy and RooshV have discussed this type of woman at great length. It's not a pretty picture.
old husband at March 20, 2012 10:09 PM
****This woman ought to thank whatever gods she worships that she found a man who can stand her silly BS.*****
THIS. And an engineer, to boot. MY engineer is pretty "off the beaten path" personality-wise for an engineer, and he would have called her a silly bitch.
Daghain at March 20, 2012 10:43 PM
but the truth is, guys in my social milieu can be very competitive, neurotic, and immature.
Have you thought about whether this applies to the women too?
when she's (seemingly) never dated a man of that type before. LW, why were you attracted to all those engineers who became resentful?
My guess is they're better providers than an eco-shaman.
Ltw at March 21, 2012 1:03 AM
Men who want what the letter writer wants are overwhelmingly creepy peepee. I think she should buy the SNL best of Will Farrell dvds and watch the "my lovah" sketches til she comes to her senses or accepts that there are no hot sensitive new age guys.
deathbysnoosnoo at March 21, 2012 1:19 AM
There's a reason that the show was about "Dharma and Greg" and not "Dharmo* and Peg".
I can sympathize, because it would have been nice to find a vegetarian, Wiccan guy who was also mentally stable, socially competent, able to be preppie as needed, well-educated, a good provider, monogamous, able to function both in Europe and the US, and that my parents would approve of. (I'm leaving out things like "kind" and "good sense of humor" because actually, those things were pretty easy to find, it is the practical stuff that is harder).
However, one has to be realistic in one's expectations. Monogamous Wiccan guys are hard to find, and only about 20% of them are veg anyways, so if you factor in everything my odds of meeting the guy were nil. I'm sure he exists somewhere, and had we met, perhaps it would have been dandy. Or maybe we'd be incompatible for other reasons. In any case, if I'd insisted on those points I wouldn't be with my husband now, who is awesome.
I think what you've got now, a guy who isn't necessarily into all the same stuff as you but who doesn't mind that you are is a pretty good deal. Sure, there will be some negotiating, people are always willing to put up with more weird stuff (to them) in the beginning of a relationship than when it gets serious. Perhaps you won't be able to go to as many retreats as you did before, perhaps you'll have to pick and chose, but you can still live your two lives and be yourselves, providing you give him the same respect he gives you. And if he occasionally tags along, well, great!
* I'm aware Dharmo isn't a word but off the top of my head I couldn't think of a spiritual concept that sounded like a masculine name.
NicoleK at March 21, 2012 1:30 AM
She found an engineer who will put up with "eco-shamanism and planetary consciousness stuff"?!
Speaking as an engineer, the mind boggles.
One also wonders what she sees in engineers, given that the engineering point of view has got to be offensive to her beliefs. Cynically, I expect Ltw is right: engineers actually have an income, whereas shaman-boys are either dead broke or scammers.
What I find remarkable about people like this is their huge mental disconnect. They generally decry civilization and technology, but without it they would be too busy grubbing roots to have time to worry about "planetary consciousness".
a_random_guy at March 21, 2012 4:22 AM
We are truly a kind and prosperous society, or Fad Follower would long ago have starved to death.
MarkD at March 21, 2012 4:36 AM
Actually, random guy, I know a surprising number of Pagans who are engineers. Successful ones, even.
NicoleK at March 21, 2012 4:40 AM
I, like NicoleK, identify as Wiccan, but I think I'm actually more of what people call a "hedge witch". I don't follow any one particular trad, as it were. But I'm not vegetarian (mmmmmmmm, venison...bacon...beef...etc.), and I don't exactly eschew all other leather products (love my knee-high leather black boots!) either. And I work in biotech. Yep, mice and rats. Doesn't bother me in the least. My BF works for a medical device-making company, but he's Catholic (non-practicing, really) and he tolerates my little bent quite well. In fact, he gave me one of the racks from one of the bucks he shot (compound bow) for my altar. And we're both into gardening. But when it comes to live music, I go with my girl friends or to alone. He doesn't dig the bar scene, and really doesn't like me going without him, but I don't go hunting with him, so he lets me do my thing and I let him do his. Compromise is a beautiful thing!
Flynne at March 21, 2012 6:18 AM
"If you can IMAGINE a better partner, does that mean you should break up?"
I can IMAGINE myself hooking up with Miss Asia 2012, with a PhD, independent wealth, and a passion for playing Skyrim.
But I'll stick with the wife I've got, regardless. We can imagine a lot of things. That's easy. But it can make counting our blessings difficult.
Old RPM Daddy at March 21, 2012 7:13 AM
"One also wonders what she sees in engineers, given that the engineering point of view has got to be offensive to her beliefs. Cynically, I expect Ltw is right: engineers actually have an income, whereas shaman-boys are either dead broke or scammers."
Plus, they give her something to change. She's into changing the world, one engineer at a time. My guess is that things start out ok - these guys tolerate her interests - until it becomes clear that this isn't good enough to make her happy. She wants them to become more and more like her shaman self because that's the only acceptable way to be. They then get mad that this woman is so insufferably conceited and self-absorbed, and they leave.
She should hold onto the guy she's got if he can actually stand being with her.
LS at March 21, 2012 7:37 AM
I think AG's advice is pretty much spot on. Speaking as a physicist, a_random_guy has pretty much the quintessential engineer's perspective. I'm sure she dates engineers, because she needs the stability and attention to detail, just as they need a little of the flightiness. I doubt they get resentful, though. I suspect they get tired of her, as AG says.
But, something the LW said struck me and hasn't been commented on. The first quality she asked for is someone "who is gorgeous and..." Basically, this guy isn't good looking enough for her, and she is fantasizing about a guy who is, and tosses in everything else she thinks she wants on top of it.
If I'm right, she needs to be honest with herself. Is he good looking enough? Is she good looking enough to get someone who is good looking enough? I'm a bit older than her, and my interest (running, swimming, triathlons, etc) put me in contact with a similar age range of people as her interests put her in contact with. If I weren't married, I'd probably be dating a woman in her 30s, not one who is 45, if for no other reason than the odds work out that way. I tend to doubt that I'm "gorgeous". (I do get told I look like a younger Clint Eastwood, so maybe... Alas, never by some hot 29 year old, though.) The few guys I know along the lines of what she is looking for are much less likely than me to date their own age. NicoleK has them right.
Of course, if realism was the LW's thing, she wouldn't be the LW. I doubt my logic will have an impact.
SlowMind at March 21, 2012 7:59 AM
I have a Wiccan friend who left her devoted husband because he wouldn't "get into" her spiritual life and he wouldn't tolerate her backslide into polyamory. (It does seem to go hand in hand with the scene.) She's a beautiful girl and didn't want to give up all the male attention, so she bailed on this terrific guy.
Someday when she's old enough that every guy at the party doesn't want to nail her, I think she will regret the decision.
Insufficient Poison at March 21, 2012 8:19 AM
I think there is a tendency in the comments to beat up on the LW for real or imagined sins. I don't really like that and so I hate to pile on, but: "an Occupy girl, age 45"? I am 40 and I stopped calling myself a girl a long time ago.
Astra at March 21, 2012 8:19 AM
wait, "plumpitude?" i think amy just called the LW fat.
jane at March 21, 2012 8:23 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2012/03/looking-for-the.html#comment-3086612">comment from janeTruth: Fat women do worse with men.
I'm all about stating the facts.
Saying "fat," straight out, however, is boring.
Amy Alkon at March 21, 2012 8:25 AM
IP, yeah, there does seem to be a correlation with Polyamory, but luckily, not on this side of the pond. In fact, it was as hard to find a compatible coven where everyone wasn't poly as it is to find a compatible guy.
Anyhow, she's being the manic pixie dreamgirl to some stolid nerd, and I say yay for them, don't mess it up!
NicoleK at March 21, 2012 8:34 AM
NicoleK, did you move to the U.K.?
Insufficient Poison at March 21, 2012 9:06 AM
Please don't squeeze the shaman.
Patrick at March 21, 2012 9:27 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2012/03/looking-for-the.html#comment-3086809">comment from PatrickHa, Patrick. Terrible. Wonderful.
Amy Alkon at March 21, 2012 9:32 AM
Thank you, Patrick! After the LW hit my "oh, gag me" reflex, that was a real palate cleanser.
Pricklypear at March 21, 2012 10:01 AM
Old RPM Daddy, I love Skyrim! I kept Barbas, even though he keeps whacking stuff in my nice houses with his tail, and barks too much. Also, in my opinion, the ability to forge dragon armor is overrated - Daedric is the best there is.
Were we talking about eco-shamanism? No? Good.
Pirate Jo at March 21, 2012 10:15 AM
Wow. LW sounds like a completely useless froot loop.
I'm 44 (45 in 3 months) and I actually cringed while reading her letter.
My advice: Nothing. She wouldn't listen to any advice that doesn't match up with her desires.
If she would listen? : Grow up! You sound like an unrealistic, immature and selfish child.
LauraGr at March 21, 2012 11:03 AM
P.J. -- I haven't even bought Skyrim yet. I'm not sure my rig will support it, and I'm not even done playing Oblivion! PC is the best platform to play on, by the way, due to the extensive world of user mods.
Now, back to topic. I'm so not getting any work done today...
Old RPM Daddy at March 21, 2012 11:30 AM
Reading her letter...I shuddered...and then wanted to shout:
STOP MAKING WOMEN'S SUFFRAGE LOOK LIKE THE WORST IDEA OF THE 20TH CENTURY!
OK, that said...lets be real here.
As miss Alkon rightly pointed out, larger women do worse than slender women. That is a fact. True larger women can usually still find someone to nail them, but that isn't the same as finding someone that will give a damn about them. Those are facts.
But we don't know whether she is large or thin.
What we do know is her age. 45.
Here is another fact, as men age, their relative value goes up. A man of 50 can find a girl in her 20s. His earning power tends to rise, and whether he wants a young wife or a young girlfriend, he's not going to have problems. Double that if he takes care of himself so that he ages like Sean Connery.
A 45 year old woman however, hit her peak around 15 or 20 years before, and no matter how well she takes care of herself, she starts to decline. Men won't care much about her income, but they will care if her tits are fried eggs hanging on a nail. Her physical attractiveness will continue to decline and the chances of her finding a long term mate decline with them. Sure she might find a guy in her age bracket, but she'd better have one helluva personality if she's competing with a girl in her early 30s or late 20s.
Add to that her little quaint set of aging hippie attitudes and beliefs, ones that most men will find either amusing, or just stupid...and she's got an even harder road ahead if she drops the current beau. Most of the guys I've met who are into her "scene" are either deadbeats...or players who figure the women into that stuff lack the sense to know when they shouldn't sleep with someone. Judging from some of their track records...they're usually right.
If she drops this guy, who is smart, indulges her, and cares about her, and who is a stable provider...well I hope her imaginary partner proves able to make up for his absence. I'd say she'd be in for a rude awakening, but somehow I doubt this one will wake up at all, ever.
But setting a
Robert at March 21, 2012 12:22 PM
Wow, this woman is so far out of touch with reality, it's frightening.
MIOnline at March 21, 2012 12:42 PM
I have a Wiccan friend who left her devoted husband because he wouldn't "get into" her spiritual life and he wouldn't tolerate her backslide into polyamory. (It does seem to go hand in hand with the scene.)
Now see, if my BF knew about the polyamory thing, I doubt we'd be together today. I was never into that side of it to begin with, which is another reason why he and I get along, too, I guess. But that doesn't seem to be the LW's issue at this point. Seems she's trying to conjure up someone who fits her idea better than the guy she's currently with. If that's the case, she should let him go, because he'll never measure up. She should be happy with what she's got; be grateful for him, even.
Flynne at March 21, 2012 1:04 PM
Robert, what does this person's bad judgment in love have to do with women's suffrage? You've been sucking up too much of the manosphere.
Insufficient Poison at March 21, 2012 2:09 PM
How many women here are Wiccans? I had no idea it was this popular. Flynne and Nicole...anybody else?
I have a friend who is into the native American/Mother Earth stuff. She actually met her younger boyfriend when he gave a lecture about it, and they spend their time traveling around to different spiritual summits, held in teepees. Seems bizarre to me, but they share this interest. I think they believe in shamans too. Not sure. ("Please don't squeeze the shaman." lol)
She's in her 60s (in great shape) and he's in his 40s, and she told me once that she wasn't sure he even knew her age. It had never come up in conversation, and now, they've been together for 7 or 8 years and she was wondering if she should tell him. I told her that if he'd never asked he probably doesn't care.
LS at March 21, 2012 2:23 PM
"Men won't care much about her income, but they will care if her tits are fried eggs hanging on a nail."
Do men who sneer at women like this expect to be judged equally harshly? If you want to treat other people like cattle who just don't come up to your exalted standards, you can find something to sneer at anyone about.
I am so grateful for a man who tells me I'm more beautiful now than I was 36 years ago - and keeps proving he means it by his actions. When the poet wrote "Grow old along with me, the best is yet to be" he didn't think to add "unless your tits start sagging, then I'm outa here." Yech.
rm at March 21, 2012 3:20 PM
Looking at people like cattle works both ways. Middle-aged men on the prowl for women half their age seem to forget they're competing with men in their 20s and 30s.
Be that as it may, LW's guy sounds like a keeper.
Lori at March 21, 2012 4:02 PM
"Do men who sneer at women like this expect to be judged equally harshly? "
A lot of those men have already been through the being-sneered-at stage when they were teens and young adults. Not saying that make it right... just sayin'.
Cousin Dave at March 21, 2012 4:37 PM
"A lot of those men have already been through the being-sneered-at stage when they were teens and young adults. Not saying that make it right... just sayin'."
I was sneered at too. Being a pretty girl (which I was) doesn't save you from that. There are still plenty of men who'll treat you like dirt and put you down every chance they get. They'll even tell you you're ugly, fat or whatever (I weighed 90 pounds) trying to get you to feel bad about yourself. Or you're not rich enough, or your family isn't important enough, or you're too rich, or whatever. Some men just want to tear you down.
My husband was also treated badly by some women. It didn't change him except maybe to make him more compassionate. I say maybe because from everything I've heard and observed about him, he was born compassionate and didn't need to get kicked in the teeth to develop it.
Whether you're a man or a woman (or a pink Martian, I don't care) life sucks sometimes, people are mean to you and it hurts. If you're deeper than a mud puddle, you keep your dignity and integrity and move on.
rm at March 21, 2012 5:05 PM
"I guess my question is: If you can IMAGINE a better partner, does that mean you should break up?"
Sure, do what you want. In describing yourself, you've indicated no tendency to embrace reality. Why start now?
I find self-described "eco-shamanism and planetary consciousness" people to have an exceedingly poor idea of what really goes on. Chickie, did you see that the ESA launched a "frame-dragging" experiment, to measure the relativistic effects on local space of the Earth's rotation? There is actually more to reality than "spiritual" people can make up.
I also suspect there's more to your guy now than you've bothered to see. Look closer.
Radwaste at March 21, 2012 6:47 PM
I, too, doubt the engineers became 'resentful' of her beliefs: from the sound of things she probably started shoving crap in their faces to push them away when she decided "I need to look for my Mystic Perfect Shaman" and didn't have the integrity(or maybe the brains) to say "It's over."
Firehand at March 21, 2012 6:53 PM
I'm married to a man I still adore 17 years later (22 years together). He's an engineer I met at a pagan church; I've been involved in alternative health stuff -- massage therapy and nutrition -- for a good 30 years. We have planted a tree together on Earth Day, and been to a bunch of pagan festivals (much drumming and dancing around bonfires.) We are both Obama liberals, we have chickens in the yard, and adore our permaculture activist neighbors. We recycle, we go camping, he goes to a tarot MeetUp every other weekend.
And you know what? We're both really tired of hippier-than-thou, airy-fairy, we're-visioning-our-own-reality types. We own a house -- a house that is heated with natural gas. We drive cars, because, y'know, we need to get to the grocery store and the library. We've found that we're way, way healthier eating red meat than whole grains. We both work for a living, though we've managed a life where we have a *lot* of time freedom. He actually works for a local civil engineering firm, and takes occasional sh!t from friends about working an eeeeeevul DEVELOPER, though we know the guy to be honest and possessed of a conscience. (We also know that all the friends who think he's Satan live in houses. With sewers. And graded roads out front.)
I guess my point is that it's possible to be lefty/conscious/earth-loving, and not drift way off into cloud-cuckoo land. If you can't handle that, let the engineer go, for some woman who will appreciate him.
Dana at March 21, 2012 7:35 PM
One also wonders what she sees in engineers, given that the engineering point of view has got to be offensive to her beliefs. Cynically, I expect Ltw is right: engineers actually have an income, whereas shaman-boys are either dead broke or scammers.
Most of the guys I've met who are into her "scene" are either deadbeats...or players who figure the women into that stuff lack the sense to know when they shouldn't sleep with someone.
I own a little rental property, and made the mistake of renting a studio to a guy who knew a lot of people I knew in the hippie/pagan set, despite his admitting he had a poor credit record. He was teaching a class, he was getting occasional gigs, and after all, the studio was only $340/month. He was so sincere and *spiritual*.
He never paid rent. Never. Didn't bother. I booted him two months after he moved in. Despite not having money for rent, he managed to come up with the money to smoke heavily; I had to repaint after two months because the place stank. No doubt tobacco was "his sacred herb."
I have no doubts that this guy still thinks of himself as a super-nice, super-spiritual guy, but what he really is is a user. Goddess forbid he go get a job rounding up shopping carts at the grocery store or busing tables at a local restaurant, no, no, the *universe* will send him the place he needs -- via suckers like me.
What an @$$hole.
Dana at March 21, 2012 7:49 PM
no, honey, it does NOT mean you should break up. it freaks me out that after 45 years of life you still question this; not judging, but am slightly frightened by this.
also, that's pretty damn specific: "engineers with a playful side" -- maybe the solution is to experiment with dudes in a completely different field, or engineers with zero playful side, or something...
Rachel Flax at March 21, 2012 7:53 PM
Poison: I was being facetious.
Don't read to much into it.
Even if it was a pretty bad idea. ;)
Turns out women are as dumb as men...so now you've pumped twice the stupidity into the voting process. Still sound good?
I'd say more, but I've got to go stop my wife from voting and go knock her up before she starts expecting me to let her wear shoes.
(Has my evil sense of humor become apparent to you now, or have you left to go burn a bra?) (Still being facetious)
Robert at March 22, 2012 12:35 AM
I'd say more, but I've got to go stop my wife from voting and go knock her up before she starts expecting me to let her wear shoes
Just chain her to te kitchen sink Robert. Leave enough slack so she can to the bedroom though.
I'm amazed at the number of commenters here that a) have some sort of alternative beliefs, and b) are married to engineers. *I'm* an engineer and quite comfortable with people having different beliefs - as long as they're not forced on me - any of you still single?
Ltw at March 22, 2012 2:08 AM
Here is another fact, as men age, their relative value goes up. A man of 50 can find a girl in her 20s.
***
Yeah... IF he's much richer than said girl, and more importantly, richer than her parents. Men in their 50s are not attractive to women in their 20s, as a general rule (of course there are exceptions). If they're rich, though, their money is.
IP... no, not the UK, Switzerland.
LS, a lot of Wiccans and Pagans are into being libertarian (the ones that aren't liberals that is). So it makes sense they'd like this blog, because even if they aren't libertarians, a lot of their friends probably are. Also lots of Wiccans like computers. Modern day crystal ball, maybe?
NicoleK at March 22, 2012 5:55 AM
I'll bet Robert doesn't let his wife play Skyrim.
Pirate Jo at March 22, 2012 11:27 AM
'lol' Funny you should say that Jo, I just gave her and the kids and Xbox 360 to keep them entertained while I'm away in Korea. Including a copy of Skyrim.
Robert at March 22, 2012 1:37 PM
I have to agree with NicoleK on this on. Men in their 50s are not generally physically or sexually attractive to women in their late 20s - early 30s to use Robert's age range. Their money certainly is but a woman of that age would rather be having sex/dating/seeing a fit handsome man more her own age. Older men like to delude themselves by thinking they can easily score a much younger woman. Sure, if you have a big bank account you can, but don't be surprised when she's having sex with the hot 20-something year old personal trainer from her gym.
Wise One at March 22, 2012 3:38 PM
the "Embrace of the Earth" rite, in which participants spend the night in a grave they dig themselves.
Good god, that's funny!
YTS at March 22, 2012 3:56 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2012/03/looking-for-the.html#comment-3090137">comment from YTSThanks, YTS -- I work at it!
Amy Alkon at March 22, 2012 4:05 PM
"Here is another fact, as men age, their relative value goes up. A man of 50 can find a girl in her 20s. "
Ah...."can" find? I suppose. But *likely* to find? For most, no.
We get into what kind of physical shape that man is in, overall energy level, etc. (Can he still fit into his high school pants, and look good doing so? That tapered back and narrow waist still there?) How is his financial condition looking? (Nice bank account? Material goodies?) Does he have charisma or some other aspect women generally find appealing?
The larger share of guys in their 50s have zero chance of pulling any quality women in their 20s. Zero. That is the other side of all those utterly average to below average middle-aged gals cackling about "going cougar". Rigghht. Because that sexy guy in his prime is just salivating over varicose veins and middle-age paunch. A small slice of extraordinary well-preserved gals who started off hot and still look much younger than their years can pull it off, for few nights to a few months with a much younger guy. The rest should stick to their canasta games with the gals.
A few guys in their 50s can pull gals in their prime for a while, but those guys are a small segment of that population.
"Do men who sneer at women like this expect to be judged equally harshly?"
Every man is aware of just how very harshly women judge men women deem unsuitable as sexual mates. Because all men start their sexual lives at a stage where almost no desirable woman would touch them, and the boys slowly grow out of it.
Women, by contrast, start their sexual lives at their most desirable stage, and slowly grow out of that.
Spartee at March 22, 2012 6:49 PM
I was with you until the last comment, Spartee. It depends on the woman. For every high school prom queen, there are at least 10 dorky, undesirable girls who don't blossom into their true hotness until years later.
I consider my late 20s/early 30s, the peak of my desirability. By then, I was comfortable with myself, with sex, and being perceived as sexy. And pregnancy had added some shape to my previously stick thin body.
Yet, even in my 20s, I found men in their late 30s/early 40s attractive. That, to me, is the hottest age for men.
But 50s and above is a different matter. As a general rule, men can date women 20 years younger - and that's usually if they have money and/or pursue messed up girls with significant daddy issues.
My rich single male friends 50 and above are not typically dating 20 yr olds. Maybe 30ish.
One of my friends just told me about his ingenious little attempt at getting younger women. He's "couch surfing". First, I thought he meant he was hopping from couch to couch, but, no, he's OFFERING his couch - in his waterfront house - to young women.
Right now, he's got two cute 22 yr old French girls staying with him. He's well off, and not bad looking (fit with a full head of silver hair), but, so far, all he's managed to do with these girls is make them breakfast.
Then again, it's just a numbers game. If he keeps offering his couch, he may eventually find some young houseguest willing to have sex with him, but it's something he's got to work at.
LS at March 23, 2012 5:37 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2012/03/looking-for-the.html#comment-3091529">comment from LSAgree, LS -- same for me. I was awkward in my early 20s, socially and otherwise.
Amy Alkon at March 23, 2012 5:59 AM
I don't know if you agree, Amy, but I've observed that late bloomers usually have the kind of good looks that stick.
The girls who were cute in high school are often not so cute by 30. It's hard to know what you're getting with a woman in her teens/early 20s. The metabolism is high, and emotional issues are still written off as growing pains or immaturity.
LS at March 23, 2012 6:56 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2012/03/looking-for-the.html#comment-3091805">comment from LSI see that on Facebook, LS. A lot of people from high school, who weren't nice to me back then, by the way, have friended me. Sometimes, it's really shocking, what's become of some of them.
Amy Alkon at March 23, 2012 7:07 AM
"Do men who sneer at women like this expect to be judged equally harshly?"
What I was trying to say was, do men who make remarks like this about women on public forums like this, expect women to be equally scathing.
" Because all men start their sexual lives at a stage where almost no desirable woman would touch them, "
I'm not sure what you mean. Most young men / teenage boys haven't exactly had a chance to accomplish much, and physically they may be short (shorter than their eventual full height), gawky or whatever. But I seem to remember finding them a lot of them pretty hot anyway. A pleasant personality makes up for a lot. Shy was fine if they were pleasant once you got to know them.
rm at March 23, 2012 10:02 AM
How many women here are Wiccans? I had no idea it was this popular. Flynne and Nicole...anybody else?
Me too. Also...I married an engineer.
Pagan religions don't have to be hippy dippy. I don't believe in God, and I don't plan my life according to Tarot readings. I just find some meaning in celebrating the changes of the seasons and the natural world. And I appreciate heating and cars and my microwave oven, too. My husband calls me a pagan atheist. He won't take part in rituals with me, but he appreciates some of the other aspects of it, like the meals I make on holidays. He also appreciates that my practice is based on reverence for something tangible: The vegetable garden really does grow, and the tides really do come and go.
As for the LW: I don't get some of the vitriol tossed her way. She doesn't seem to be treating this guy poorly. My answer: You will always be able to imagine a better partner. That doesn't mean you're going to find a better partner. And I don't mean this in terms of "Oh my God! You're 45! You need to find a man yesterday before your breasts shrivel up and fall off!"
Since she is 45 and she makes no mention of wanting children, I'm assuming that's not a factor for her, so she can shop around as much as she pleases. There are still plenty of men out there NOT in the market for college undergrads. A friend of mine is 62, has MS and occasionally pees herself because of poor muscle control, and she still gets offers from time to time. The idea that you need to hang on to any decent man you can find if you're over 35 is false. But her boyfriend seems like a great guy, and she seems happy with him overall, so why go shopping unless the spiritual thing is a deal breaker?
MonicaP at March 23, 2012 2:34 PM
I find it amazing that someone who does not even suspect the things for which NIST has standards presumes to tell others how the world works.
Saint Augustine said something to Christians that can apply to everyone who just won't look before they speak.
Radwaste at March 23, 2012 8:00 PM
Looking For The Gaia Next Door
Another great title, Amy.
I've mostly dated engineers with a playful side who initially seemed open to my interests but quickly became resentful of them.
We're always initially open to a woman's interests if we want to sleep with her.
I fantasize about meeting an artistic shamanic guy who is gorgeous and open and shares my sense of purpose, but the truth is, guys in my social milieu can be very competitive, neurotic, and immature.
And the guys in your social milieu are probably saying the same thing about the women.
We laugh effortlessly and are very giving to each other, but I can't shake the feeling that I should look for somebody more my type
You might not be able to shake it, but so far that feeling apparently hasn't been that strong either, since you're still enjoying the company of your current boyfriend. In time, that feeling will probably either become stronger, and you'll end up dumping your boyfriend in your quest for Mr. Artistic Shamanic Right, or it will lessen if you grow closer to your boyfriend.
JD at March 24, 2012 12:52 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2012/03/looking-for-the.html#comment-3096285">comment from JDThanks, JD!
Amy Alkon at March 24, 2012 1:11 PM
The girls who were cute in high school are often not so cute by 30
LS, I went to two high school reunions, my 20th and 25th. While many of the cute girls from high school weren't at either one, so I have no idea how they turned out, those that did attend were still attractive. My high school girlfriend was at the 25th and she is (or was as of then) still very pretty.
There was one woman at the 20th who really caught my eye. I didn't realize who she was at first and then recognized her as a nice-but-nerdy-looking girl from my class. She was a classic case of an "ugly duckling" becoming a beautiful "swan."
But 50s and above is a different matter. As a general rule, men can date women 20 years younger - and that's usually if they have money and/or pursue messed up girls with significant daddy issues.
I think money/status is the main allure for women there. Guys who are older and would like to date women 20 or so years younger, but who lack wealth and status, are going to find it difficult-to-impossible to attract those women. That doesn't mean, of course, that any older guy with money and status is going to be able to get what he wants...but at least he has the opportunity.
JD at March 24, 2012 1:40 PM
You're welcome, Amy. I think that was one of your best titles yet.
I haven't been here in a while (too busy having fun -- including naked fun!* -- with the Austin divorcée I met at the art walk) but had to pop in with a few comments.
* One of the things that sucks about being single is the long dry spells while you're looking for someone you like and are attracted to (and who, very crucially, feels the same way about you.) On the other hand, one of the great things about it is that when you finally meet a person like that, you get to have "brand-new" sex which, in my experience, is almost always very hot.
JD at March 24, 2012 1:55 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2012/03/looking-for-the.html#comment-3096392">comment from JDGregg's older than I am by 13 years, and we went to his high school reunion recently and all the men there looked like somebody's grandpa! It was kind of amazing. I have friends his age, too, but there are people who get older but don't get older in their heads, and my older friends are like that.
Amy Alkon at March 24, 2012 2:00 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2012/03/looking-for-the.html#comment-3096396">comment from JDI think that was one of your best titles yet.
Thanks - fun to come up with these (except when I'm 30 minutes from deadline and still haven't managed to pun up). And here's to naked fun!
Amy Alkon at March 24, 2012 2:03 PM
I'd say most of the guy at the two reunions I went to still looked pretty good. But I had to laugh at the 25th when the guy who was the star running back showed up. He was a big guy back then but big and solid. 25 years later he was big and fat. Plus scruffy-looking and very poorly dressed.
Lots of guys, of course, had lost most of their hair. I'm really fortunate that, at my age, I still have a full head of it. I don't think I'd handle going bald very well.
JD at March 24, 2012 2:58 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2012/03/looking-for-the.html#comment-3096532">comment from JDGregg, who's 60, has hair men would kill for -- still-dark and thick. A balding TSA worker (with those taped-across strings of hair) who grabbed his balls at a checkpoint creeped him out when he hissed, "You have really great hair."
Amy Alkon at March 24, 2012 3:08 PM
My dermatologist did that. I was getting my moles checked, so he checked, well, everywhere, and he's running his hands through my hair as he checks my scalp and saying, "Vous avez de superbs cheveux" and going on about it, and it was a bit awkward.
NicoleK at March 25, 2012 9:34 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2012/03/looking-for-the.html#comment-3098530">comment from NicoleKWell, at least when you got to the dermatologist (as opposed to the airport) you are being checked voluntarily and for an actual purpose.
Amy Alkon at March 25, 2012 9:39 AM
My dermatologist did that. I was getting my moles checked, so he checked, well, everywhere, and he's running his hands through my hair
I have no idea why, but I first read this as "My gynecologist..." I thought to myself, "Well, that's intrusive."
MonicaP at March 26, 2012 12:15 PM
You have to go with your gut, that piter pater in you stomach will tell you! All that we will grow into won't cut it...it has to work both ways too. It's love at first sight or nothing, I think it's a combo of "pheromones" and "Darwinisms", when the eyes lock, and you can't pronounce any words...your there!
Daniel Gordon at March 27, 2012 5:24 PM
Oof, reading this letter made me want to go cut slits into the bellies of two baby seals, shove my feet in, and go for a walk.
Choika at March 29, 2012 6:30 AM
Obviously, it's a problem if you go out with some engineer dude, tell him you're an "Occupy girl," and he says, "Wow, my company designs the water cannons the police use to spray you people."
-Thank you for this Amy, I laughed my ass off.
Lia at April 3, 2012 10:11 PM
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