It also doesn't hurt to remind yourself that toddlerhood only last a couple years, unless you're a member of the Duggen family. It sounds cheezy to say that it will also pass quickly, but it really will.

People shouldnt have kids until they are married more than 5 yrs

But we're both stressed and exhausted and we never have sex. Our lives seem like one big dull, diaper-changing, kid-focused routine.

That's because they are. If you listened to the Hallmark ads rather than every other parent in the world whinging about how miserable it is, you got snookered.

Much has to do with the entire attitude about raising children has changed in a few generations.
Just looking at my grand parents, between the 2 sets there were (11 on Dads side 8 on Moms) children, with 2 full time jobs and 1 buisness to run, no tv, no microwave or pretty much any modern timesaving devices. And still had time to have made those kids.
Friends who have one kid, and a part time day care, all the modern timesaving devices, claim they have zero free time or energy.
Doesn't add up unless they are completely hellicoptering the kids.

Amy is spot-on about re-defining sex. Americans have become such a sex-obsessed culture that any sexual activity other than "mind-blowing" is considered sub-par. There is a lot more to intimacy than orgasm.

I mentioned this in another recent thread, but it's relevant here too so I'll mention it again - a great book on re-defining what great sex is:

Cupid's Poisoned Arrow, by Marnia Robinson

The book's website is: http://www.reuniting.info/

Marnia and her hubby also have a Psychology Today blog, and her most recent post is relevant to this letter - specifically, how bonding behaviors (which produce oxytocin) seem to immunize pair-bonded men against checking out other women: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cupids-poisoned-arrow/201211/oxytocin-fidelity-and-sex

we're both stressed and exhausted and we never have sex

I wonder if that's a euphemism for 'we're both stressed and exhausted and I don't feel like having sex but my husband does'.

Writing a letter for advice is a positive step though.

Friends who have one kid, and a part time day care, all the modern timesaving devices, claim they have zero free time or energy.
Doesn't add up unless they are completely hellicoptering the kids

You just described my home life, one kid, part-time daycare, maid, a wife who doesn't work, and she still claims to have no free time or energy, and she is never "in the mood" for sex. But she never tries to make time for our love life. I konw being a mom's hard work, but c'mon. If I suggest leaving baby with family for a night she says she thinks the baby would be too upset. I think I've landed in my wife's friend zone or something. I'm not asking for mind-blowing, I'd settle for flickers of interest.

@Angel Interesting. That confirms my own experiences, if there is intimacy at home I don't even think of cheating. When I'm really feeling that distance (very little sex) between my wife and I, then I can feel, I start feeling like I want to pursue some action elsewhere (have not though - yet).

@Angel I mean the last one I agree one (oxytocin and fedelity).

But sex without orgasm? God no.

Regarding parenthood's impact on life...

It's true that we have many conveniences that didn't exist a few generations ago, but please keep in mind that standards have changed. Laundry, for instance... From my (limited) reading, I understand that wear-it-once-and-wash is a relatively new thing (or else there wouldn't have been time to do things like cook).

So, laundry (or at least the folding part) does take time it didn't used to - probably causing a lot less "gain" in time than most people think (especially with little ones spitting up all the time!).

That's just an example.

Standards on parenting have changed drastically since I was a kid (1980s). People freak out that I send my 6 year old to the tot lot by himself... it's right in front of our house and he doesn't need to cross the street to get there. I can even see it from the window! This is practically considered reckless endangerment!

So, while I do think people put too much child-centeredness into their lives, I think some of it is society's fault. With families spread apart, fewer parents at home to "swap" with during the day (to get things done), and other changes, I think that people can sometimes be a bit harsh on parents who are only trying to not have child protective services called because Timmy is in the fenced back yard kicking a ball by himself at age 10!

Also, kids can be tiring - even if you have all the time in the world. Trust me that, when they're sick or just having a limit-testing day, by 3 hours of screaming child, you will be exhausted no matter how much time you have ("headache" isn't always a euphemism!).

So, let's just remember that not ALL stay-at-home parents are slackers who sit around eating cookies watching soaps. :)

A separate thought.. giving birth totally screws with your hormones. Nursing is almost worse. Forget homeostasis - with the disrupted sleep cycles, most new moms are lucky for "I know whether it's 2 AM or PM." Sometimes, this combined with the difficulties in adjusting to a total life upheaval (and general lack of sleep), can cause depression... which can cause one to withdraw further, creating a nasty cycle.

Men "need" sex and orgasm more than women do. They also need quite a bit less time to achieve it. Any woman who does not at least attempt to see that her husband's sexual needs are met, even when she just isn't feeling it, is asking for trouble.
If I refused to grocery shop or cook, because I wan't hungry, my husband would be quite justified in stopping by McDonalds.
Women need to start recognizing that sex, for a healthy man, is a requirment. If you don't provide it, he will be stepping out, and in my opinion, quite justified in doing so.

@Shannon Much of what you say is true, so I think there are degrees and there are degrees. Parenting standards have changed, I don't think entirely for the better.

Fortunately my wife isn't a slacker, she keeps the house meticulous. I'm thankful for that, but she spends so much time constantly tidying and arranging every last item in the house neatly and at right angles (I kid you not she even folds some of her dirty laundry, I keep finding perfectly neatly folded dirty clothes in the hapmer), I just wish she would sometimes leave the house untidy and get the "marital" house in order instead. She says she "can't help it" and "doesn't realize she is doing it", I guess it may be a little OCD or something? Our sex life is improving now though, but only after some struggles, she is finally making some effort. But it got to the point where it nearly cost the marriage (as where "bundle of worry" seems headed)

Being thakful for what you have, great advice, sure, but can be tough for a man to feel thankful when he's had almost no intimacy from his wife for months.

Being a new parent is tough on moms yes, but more seldom discussed is that being a new parent can be tough on dads too. Lots of new responsiblities, new stress, lots of new bills to pay, also lots of lost sleep, and sometimes it feels thankless, husband is expected to just be a pillar of support (yeah yeah nobody cares, I'm sure I'll get responses saying stop feeling sorry for myself, which just proves what I'm saying). But it takes two to make things work.

"I wonder if that's a euphemism for 'we're both stressed and exhausted and I don't feel like having sex but my husband does'."

I sympathize with your own situation as you describe it, but there is nothing in the letter to support your jumping to this conclusion.

@rm "I sympathize with your own situation as you describe it, but there is nothing in the letter to support your jumping to this conclusion."

Yes, there was. It was written by a woman.

Women, in my experience, and I am one, frequently confuse silence with agreement. They are so used to consensus and agreement from their female friends, and relatives, that they seldom realize that men, don't generally feel the same way they do. Most smart men don't pick fights with their wives, even when she is the bitch from hell.

She may be frazzled and exhausted, but I can guarantee you, mere exhaustion, is not enough to stop a healthy man's sex drive.

@Sharon some is true but you also need to realise that women, especially mothers, make the rules of society, especially in the areas of how often one should clean change clothes, and when child protective services woud be called. So saying blame those who make those silly standards points the finger back at parents.

Shannon M. Howell wrote: Standards on parenting have changed drastically since I was a kid (1980s). People freak out that I send my 6 year old to the tot lot by himself... it's right in front of our house and he doesn't need to cross the street to get there. I can even see it from the window! This is practically considered reckless endangerment!

I don't have kids, but I think there's a lot of truth to this. I was a kid in the late 80s/early 90s.

Also, it seems to me that the nuclear family is getting more isolated (as you point out, it's probably because fewer parents are home during the day).

When I was a kid, we had a roaming band of neighborhood kids (ranging from age 4 to about 12) during the summer that went from yard to yard (or basement to basement if it was raining). Whichever yard/house we chose for the day, that parent would look out the window once in a while and make sure nobody was bleeding and would often feed us some PB&J and juice for lunch. Older kids were responsible for the general safety of the younger kids.

When I tell my peers who have kids that, they say our parents must have been insane and that they themselves would require a home visit with a social worker and a full background check on ANY family their kid would spend an hour with. What's funny is that they themselves were brought up in the free-range style, and they clearly turned out fine.

Okay, here's the thing I don;t get. Amy is about as modern and no-bullshit as a female can be. And yet her site seems to attract a sort of 1950s-style dude that, well, I believed only existed in fiction and on reruns of Leave It to Beaver. I swear, there's nowhere else on the interwebs that I see so much of the "men like sex, women prefer shopping" kind of comments from the blokes. I know I'm not just some sex-crazed feminist weirdo who has been brainwashed into thinking orgasms are more fun than waxing the floors. I am pretty sure that one or two other women feel the same way. Sex drives vary. Sometimes one person in a relationship wants more sex than the other--in fact, sadly, perhaps almost always that's true. A highly informal poll of everyone I know plus advice columns a go-go would suggest that maybe as much as half the time it's the woman who wants it more (it makes sense. We can have unlimited numbers of orgasms. Dudes tend to wear out after one or two, more often than not.)

None of this has anything to do with the original LW. I don't have kids, almost certainly never will, so I can;t speak to the particulars. But the comments just made me remark, again, on the weird retro tone of so many guys who seem to love Amy's advice even though she goes out in public showing her ankles and speaking out loud and having unmarried relations with a man and suchly.

Sofar, that sounds exactly like my neighborhood growing up.

Plus, when I was 11, my friend and I would disappear into the nearby woods, armed with small guns, to hunt alone all day. No adults knew where we were until dinner, when we would wander home for food.

Local police, if they saw us walking down the road towards home, carrying small rifles and dead game would stop their cruiser...and congratulate us on the kill, discuss hunting, etc. (Now the police would likely confiscate the guns and file charges against our parents.)

That America is long, long gone, and children are poorer for that fact, no matter how many iPads they have in lieu of it.

"I wonder if that's a euphemism for 'we're both stressed and exhausted and I don't feel like having sex but my husband does'."

Bingo! *She* is not feeling it, but I promise you he is.

"Sex drives vary. Sometimes one person in a relationship wants more sex than the other--in fact, sadly, perhaps almost always that's true. A highly informal poll of everyone I know plus advice columns a go-go would suggest that maybe as much as half the time it's the woman who wants it more (it makes sense. We can have unlimited numbers of orgasms. Dudes tend to wear out after one or two, more often than not.)"

Men are on average taller than women. Yet you can find tall women and short men.

Men are on average stronger than women. Yet you can find strong women and weak men.

Similarly, men generally and on average desire more frequent sex than do women. Yet you can find some women who prefer sex more frequently than some men.

The fact that you can find individuals along any bell curve distribution who deviate from the mean does not invalidate what a bell curve tells us about populations as a whole.

Zzz: Please pick up _Babyproofing Your Marriage_. You should be able to find it on Amazon. Read it (especially the chapter on sex) and get your wife to read it (tell her you'll fold the dirty clothes for her for a couple of weeks if she does). Before you ask -- yes, it was written by women. But it really is a look at what new parenthood is like for men and women, and how the primal emotions that get stirred up are often very different. I recommend it to all new parents. It's been helpful for my husband and me since we added a couple of babies (yes, more than one, at the same time!) to our household a little while ago.

Reminiscing about the Good Old Days aside, the baby in question is less than a year old, so mom couldn't exactly send him/her across the street to play even if this was the 70s. I haven't had kids yet myself, but the impression I get is that babies by definition are a lot of work, and some of them are going to be much harder than others, no matter what. And at this stage it's less about parenting style than it is luck of the draw (I joke that I'm lucky I'm the oldest kid--if my sister had been born first my parents would have never wanted another one).

So yes LW and her husband could have a really, really difficult baby and that sucks. Or maybe her hormones are more out of whack than the average bear. Or maybe the marriage/baby/timing was a mistake. But it sounds more like they're going through a phase that every new parents do, and it doesn't mean that their relationship is doomed. It's like a college freshman freaking out because it's finals week and they have 6 tests and 3 papers due and they only slept 2 hours last night--no you're not an idiot whose bound to fail out, you're just in college and this is what it's like. This too shall pass.

Quickies. It's not as fun as a long, romantic date, dinner and a show and strolling along the beach, followed by hours of seductive foreplay and all-night sex. But quickies. To get you back into the swing of things.

Schedule them. Yeah, sorry, I sound unromantic. But say, "Hey, how about a quickie before bed tonight?" Then do it, as soon as the baby is asleep. Don't wait to get XYZ done before you do or you will be to tired. Put the kid down, have a quickie, and THEN do XYZ if you want.

Quickies. I recommend them. If you're worried you won't have an orgasm, part your fingers into a V and place your hand over your mons so your fingers are splayed out over your lips. With the thrusting, it should rub you in such a way that you can get something out of the quickie, too. Also, think about sex all day so you're mentally in the right place.

When I tell my peers who have kids that, they say our parents must have been insane and that they themselves would require a home visit with a social worker and a full background check on ANY family their kid would spend an hour with.

***

OK your friends are insane. My kid is 2, so she's not roaming the streets yet, but I certainly drop her off at friends' houses and they come over here. Now she's little, so her friends are the kids of other moms I made friends with, but still... when she goes to school of course she will be allowed at the houses of her friends.

I keep reading Free Range kids, but it sounds just as hysterical as the helicopter parenting... "Everyone who lets their kids do something goes to jail! What is the world coming to!" Society really hasn't changed that much. Kids still play together.

@Anathema,

It would be because perhaps more than just me are from the not-mythical 1950s. No generation created what it has. That comes from those who came before. I'd give us a gentleman's C. You don't see much of the very open racism that was common back in the day because we decided it was wrong. The draft is ended. On the other hand, we have mostly done a less than stellar job at raising self-sufficient adults, with a lot of exceptions. (Present company excepted only because of the not-of-this-culture superwoman who married me.)

Amy's advice is generally spot on. Put on your boots, pick up your shovel, and dig your own holes. Don't look for anyone else to do it for you. I really don't care what you do, until it affects me.

I wouldn't, didn't and haven't made the same choices as Amy has but so what? It would be a boring world if everyone was the same, and nothing she has done has ever impacted me negatively. Quite the opposite, actually. I don't always agree with her, but she isn't boring, ever.

Joe J,

I'm a parent, I'm a mom. I don't agree with those standards. Those standards came into being between when I was a young kid, and when I had kids. SOME parents made that happen. SOME parents are like that. But, certainly not all. You place the blame on my shoulders with your comment, but I had my first child when I was 25, and the standards had already changed since I was 10. I don't think I was an adult long enough to contribute much to the problem by then!

I actually think the media & our justice system are partially to blame. They stoke our fears and fine people for serving hot coffee if they don't specifically say the coffee is hot.

Also, this mentality that "if even one XYZ is prevented, it's worth it" doesn't help. For instance, if drunk driving were eradicated, I'm sure accidents would go down. But, making it illegal to go over 5 mph would also reduce car accidents and fatalities... but no one argues that it "would be worth it" to make all speed limits 5.

My point is, we are quickly becoming a "no risk is acceptable" society - and we can't just blame that on parents, because it's not just in parenting that this happens.

As a woman, I think it'd be great if people went around w/o their ankles (or asses) showing on occasion. Imagine what it would be like to be able to flirt with your boyfriend/husband just by lifting your skirt up a few inches.

I'm not saying it should be law, but there *are* some advantages to some of the things we, as a society, have discarded.

@Shannon M.
Shannon, I am just pointing out who society actually is in this case. Men were forced out of the child rearing domain decades ago, it is womens standards which rule it. Just as in the example you chose drunk driving. Who has been the main driver of zero tolerance laws on drunk driving? a group called MADD. Mothers Against Drunk Driving. Schools have zero tolerance for the silliest infractions, promoted by parent teacher groups. PTAs are practically all women. As to media, they deserve some blame, but it is your choice to watch, and your choice to react. And media groups answer to parent protest groups.
We can't put out the fire without acknoledging that groups like that are still the ones fanning the flames.
"we can't just blame parents" true- but they are the ones who led the change in the first place, and are still leading the changes. Hell I'll also point several fingers at politicians and pop psychologists too. But their power in this is secondary compared to the power of parents groups.

As it is any single man who publicly says something like, 'kids at 14 can walk to school on their own', would be labled as a wanabe sexual predator, trying to make his victims easier. A woman or mother who says it, would be only seen as an oddball parent, not as a danger to society.

Amy is spot on when she says sex has to be planned. We'vegot a toddler, too (16 months) and while having date night doesn't work so well for us because the nighttime routine goes best when we do it, we do still snag dates. We swap babysitting or playdates with friends on weekends. Yes, it means we have our dates in the middle of the day, but it works for us. We don't always plan to have sex, though. Sometimes the plan is to lay in bed eating ice cream and watching Blazing Saddles or something with a lot of explosions. Or the plan is to take a really long shower together and have a nap. Doing some of those things we enjoyed pre-baby usually leads to sex, but mostly it leads to the emotional intimacy that gets lost in the endless cycle of sleep-deprivation and laundry. It doesn't look exactly like what we had before, but it's good enough that we no longer miss that.

@NicoleK well to be fair, I was exaggerating for comedic effect. No social workers involved (yet, anyway)!

But I've got a cousin who keeps complaining about having to go on play-dates with her 7-year-old -- because she won't let him be at friends' houses at all unless she's there the whole time. A friend of mine threw her 6-year-old a birthday party, only to learn that all those kids' parents expected to stay for the entire party (she hadn't planned on supplying food for them). And, if you read parenting blogs, you'll soon discover the new "trend" is not letting your tween-age kids spend the night at a friend's house -- even if you know the parents because, really, how well DO you know the parents?

Free-range advocates may be just as extreme. And the internet lets like-minded parents (from both extremes) whip themselves into a frenzy.

My hubby and I are parents to two who are both under two, and yes its exhausting. Back in the day we used to have sex at night, but now most of our sex happens in the morning before the kids wake up, or in afternoons at naptime. You gotta adapt.

I hear from a lot of moms who are wondering when their sex drives will 'come back' after having a baby. For me, it came back with some gentle nudges from my hubby. Poor guy was super horny and I went along with it the first couple times even though I wasn't feeling so much in the mood. Sure enough, it got me going again. Sometimes it helps to go through the motions of emotional and physical intimacy in order to reconnect with each other. Eventually those feelings will resurface.

Also, Amy is so right about gratitude. It is really easy to fall into a pit of bitterness about my (albeit temporary) absence from my professional life to be home with a baby and toddler driving me nuts, while he's out having adult conversation AND getting paid! Moms who give in to that will feel like their husbands are never doing enough to help out around the house or with the kids, and then the sex parts get dry as a bone. Parents to young children need to spend a bit of time every day considering the other one's position and hearing each other out, for their sanity and for the sake of their intimate life.

Make an effort, LW. Make the time. This is how you have to do it, for now. When your kid is older, you'll have forgotten the shitty stuff...and I say this while typing with one hand with my 7 week old at my boob :)

Jim,

I don't deny that what you say is often the case, but I'm trying to point out that it isn't always the case.

Last year, our PTA president was a dad. My family has no TV (since 2005), just a box, DVD player, and a Wii (the kids saw their first commercials over Thanksgiving, they were so mad the movie kept being interrupted).

My point is that it is some parents and some parent groups who are the problem, not all of them, and there are others that are fanning the flames. I also don't think dads can be let entirely off the hook. Given that most men are bigger and stronger than women, can they really be forced out of child rearing by the moms??? Nagged perhaps :)

I know several stay-at-home fathers. I know lots of dads who love to spend time with their kids. Just like I think that not all government employees are lazy moochers (and treating it as if that were so doesn't help), I think that blaming only the parents (or moms) doesn't really help or address the entire problem.

For example, look at how you made your point:

it is your choice to watch, and your choice to react

Your comment was addressed to me, and your wording, however unintentional, put the blame squarely on me as a parent... but I don't even WATCH TV, better yet react to it. I don't advocate those things, and have indicated I think they're silly. But, I still get lumped in with the people I was saying created lots of the problem.

I'm not trying to disagree with your point so much as point out that all the vehement blaming of one group for a big problem doesn't really get us anywhere except into a us-versus-them yelling match.

If MADD got no press, it wouldn't have lasted. If lots of people didn't buy the "zero risk" mindset, it wouldn't last.

YES, parents are a good portion of the problem, but if we only yell at people that they are the problem, we make them defensive and don't make progress. There will ALWAYS be people on the extreme of whatever spectrum, but throwing mud at the ones who aren't, just because they share some traits with those who are, doesn't really fix anything.

Finger pointing never solves a problem.

Women need to start recognizing that sex, for a healthy man, is a requirment.

For healthy couples, I would say. It's an important realm of most intimate relationships.

Fatigue and stress can tank anyone's sex drive, even a man's. Men are more involved in child care now than they have been in decades, so it's not a surprise that men and women are both exhausted.

Early childhood doesn't last very long. If the LW and her husband can keep reminding themselves that they will have more time and energy relatively soon, that might help.

Given that most men are bigger and stronger than women, can they really be forced out of child rearing by the moms???

The fact that they are bigger and stronger is proof that they are abusers.

Can they be forced out? Lets see, women innitate naearly 90% of all divorces. They until the last few years generally got primary custody, and even to do generaly get primary physical custody. Missing child support will get you a SWAT team kicking in your door, result in the revocation of your passport, drivers licence, and business licence. While interfering with visitation requires a guy to hire a lawyer, get a court date, get a court order(which is what visitation already is), which is usually just ignored as well.

Women can get a retraining order against anyone, some nutbar in NM got one against David Letterman as he showed up in a little magic box in her home 5 nights a week around 11pm and harrased her and she wanted it to stop

Under the guidence of womens groups the following things qualify as abuse and can technically land a man in jail.
Rape
Assulted
Asking for sex more than once
Refusing to provide sex if asked for
Wolf whistling
Looking, if the woman finds it disturbing
Being assulted by a woman and calling the cops for your protection
Not giving a woman you have a relationship money whenever she asks

Can a man be forced out? A man can have a retraining order put out against him over the phone in less time than it takes him to run down to the gas station to fill up the car, and the cops can be by to arrest him before he gets back for violating the order he had no knowledge of

Can they be forced out? Lets see, women innitate naearly 90% of all divorces.

This keeps coming up. Still doesn't mean anything.

They until the last few years generally got primary custody, and even to do generaly get primary physical custody.

Which is usually a continuation of the arrangement that existed before the divorce.

Missing child support will get you a SWAT team kicking in your door, result in the revocation of your passport, drivers licence, and business licence.

Or it could result in absolutely nothing, and the mother scraping by on what she can do herself, which probably happens more often.

While interfering with visitation requires a guy to hire a lawyer, get a court date, get a court order(which is what visitation already is), which is usually just ignored as well.

Not exactly sure what you're saying here, but if the guy is changing the terms of the divorce settlement, then yes, he needs to go to court. It's what happens when you ask the state to mediate your personal life.

Women can get a retraining order against anyone, some nutbar in NM got one against David Letterman as he showed up in a little magic box in her home 5 nights a week around 11pm and harrased her and she wanted it to stop

This made the news because it was so weird. In reality, restraining orders are good as toilet paper and not much else.

Rape
Assulted

These things are crimes and SHOULD land a man in prison if he's convicted.

Asking for sex more than once
Refusing to provide sex if asked for
Wolf whistling
Looking, if the woman finds it disturbing
Not giving a woman you have a relationship money whenever she asks

People bitch about this on the Internet, but it's actually pretty rare for men to get prison time for these things. It's just as or more likely for a rape to go unpunished because there isn't enough evidence. These things happen because police, judges and lawyers are not omniscient.

Being assulted by a woman and calling the cops for your protection

This a problem with how the police are forced to deal with domestic violence situations. I was assaulted by my sister, and the police threatened to arrest me, too, because at that point it was she said/she said. It sucks for anyone on the wrong end of it.

Despite what we read on the Internet, most relationships aren't this broken. Most men do not go to prison for leering at women and most women are not being abused by their partners.

Inevitably, these discussions turn into bitchfests about how poor, defenseless men are being ripped apart by evil women. That doesn't seem to be the case in this letter. Most people are doing the best they can and just need a little help.

Shannon asked a question, and I answered it.

I know. I was pointing out that being forced out of child care is not something set up by the system or evil feminists to hurt men. Men and women are not out to get each other, and if a man truly wants to be part of the day-to-day of child-rearing, he can be. If he's being shut out, or the mother is feeling overwhelmed (or a combination of the two), it's likely because the two of them haven't really talked to each other about it.

and if a man truly wants to be part of the day-to-day of child-rearing, he can be.

Only insomuch as his wife decides not to screw him over. The threat of legal action may be over blown, but I know plenty of guys who refuse to rock the boat for fear of pissing off their wives and being cut off from what little sex and interaction with their kids their wives allow

Only insomuch as his wife decides not to screw him over.

I think men are overly worried about this sort of thing. It's not like there are swarms of new mothers who are eager to jettison their husbands for wanting to change diapers and help with nighttime feedings. Some mothers are overprotective and feel like they should be the ones to handle everything, but that's something that can usually be addressed with conversation instead of legal action. This is something preferably discussed before the child is born.

If a man really does find himself in the position of being afraid his wife is going to hit him with divorce papers for wanting to be more involved, then his relationship was probably screwed up before he became a father.

Mothers are usually responsible for more childcare while kids are babies, especially if they breastfeed, and I suspect couples get trapped in that pattern and never think to renegotiate.

What a load of BS!

Having one child has so much impact????
No way.

LW has to look at some jealousy issues caused by the child.

>>Asking for sex more than once
>>Refusing to provide sex if asked for
>>Wolf whistling
>>Looking, if the woman finds it disturbing
>>Not giving a woman you have a relationship money whenever she asks

> it's actually pretty rare for men to get prison time for these things.

Even if it happened only once --- it happened too often.

"Amy is about as modern and no-bullshit as a female can be. And yet her site seems to attract a sort of 1950s-style dude that"

So if you post that 'men like sex' suddenly you're from the 1950's?

"Sex drives vary. Sometimes one person in a relationship wants more sex than the other--in fact, sadly, perhaps almost always that's true. A highly informal poll of everyone I know plus advice columns a go-go would suggest that maybe as much as half the time it's the woman who wants it more"

I've noticed Amy tends to base her advice on science, and you might be interested to know that studies actually suggest that your "highly informal poll", is wrong, and that conventional wisdom is generally correct:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2095155/How-womans-sex-drive-declines-time--mans-stays-strong-ever.html

"Women's sex drives gradually ebb over time, say the authors of a new study, while a man's stays at around the same level.

In fact, on a desirability scale, women's yearnings decreased steadily with every passing month of a relationship, making it possible to gauge a woman's sex drive just by looking at a union's duration."

"Ranging from 1.2 to 6.0, the scale quantifies sex drive so accurately that Ms Murray and her research partner Robin Milhausen found 'specifically, for each additional month women in this study were in a relationship with their partner, their sexual desire decreased by 0.02 on the Female Sexual Function Index'.

The findings were indicative enough to lead the authors to believe that relationship duration is a better predictor of sexual desire than satisfaction in bed or overall relationship health, reports Live Science.

The study contradicts some beliefs that both men's and women's sex drives decline over the months and years."

"Given that most men are bigger and stronger than women, can they really be forced out of child rearing by the moms???"

It's illegal (and rightfully so) to initiate physical violence against your wife, so how does larger size or strength provide an advantage to any law-abiding man in a relationship disagreement? In practice, it has no benefit whatseover. Even if I wanted to beat my wife (I don't, fortunately she's a good person anyway), all that would happen if I did was she would leave me, I would go to jail and get butt-raped, and she'd probably get everything in a divorce settlement or something. Can you clarify exactly how being bigger and stronger helps the average (non-wife-beating) man?

"Fatigue and stress can tank anyone's sex drive, even a man's"

Just personally, I've never really found fatigue alone diminished my sex drive (though admittedly I'm young, mid-30s), but the types of things that really seem to affect it are stress (particularly financial stress), or, things like when I'm reflecting on how I'm not as successful in life as I hoped I'd be by now. And medication side effects.

The Pill can also affect a woman's sex drive, and many women go on the pill shortly after their first baby. That's maybe something else for LW to consider.

I think even in the most ideal circumstances having a baby is tough, it really is. Wonderful, but tough. We have a baby daughter and she's very well-behaved, but I admit I seriously under-estimated just how demanding it is. (Also life goes on just the same while you're dealing with it all - e.g. the night my wife went into labor we had a burst water heater at home, partly flooding some rooms). So it's lots of new responsibilities on top of all the existing ones.

"Finger pointing never solves a problem."
I disagree, often it is the first step in fixing a problem.

If a farm is dumping raw manure into a river, refusing to be able to state that as being a primary cause of the polution of said river will mean the problem will never be solved.
In my opinion the same is true here.

sofar wrote:

But I've got a cousin who keeps complaining about having to go on play-dates with her 7-year-old -- because she won't let him be at friends' houses at all unless she's there the whole time. A friend of mine threw her 6-year-old a birthday party, only to learn that all those kids' parents expected to stay for the entire party (she hadn't planned on supplying food for them). And, if you read parenting blogs, you'll soon discover the new "trend" is not letting your tween-age kids spend the night at a friend's house -- even if you know the parents because, really, how well DO you know the parents?

***

Insane. Don't they know the whole point of a playdate, party or other social engagement for the child is to give you a break? The two hours a week she's at her friends' house on Mondays is when I get my mopping done!!!

Man, when she goes on sleepovers... it'll be party time at the K household!

Clarifications:

1.)Finger pointing is (to me) fundamentally different from identifying a problem and coming up with a solution.

2.) My comment about men being bigger was meant somewhat sarcastically (hence the comment about nagging that followed it). I was trying to make a comment about the language being used....

If a relationship is at the point where a man feels forced out of child rearing he'd like to do - forced out by his wife (as opposed to, say, being forced out by military deployment) - then we aren't exactly talking about a baby causing a problem anymore!

I was pointing out that the language people tend to use is very volatile and finger points at whole groups who aren't necessarily in the same ocean, better yet the same boat. I was using the assertion Joe made ("Men were forced out of the child rearing domain decades ago") as an example of such wholesale finger pointing - it sounds like all men have been physically bullied out of spending time with their kids.

That's NOT to say it doesn't happen in some cases. It's not to say that some women aren't bitter/vile/vengeful, or some men aren't deadbeats. Those cases surely exist.

Rather, my comment was made in the context of saying the problem is not all, but some parents - and I had already stated that there are other contributors to these issues (e.g. media).

I was not advocating that men (or women) use force, but trying to point out that sometimes even our choice of language can make problems worse rather than better...

For example, look how far astray this conversation has gone.
1.) Joe comments that a lot has changed in parenting in a few generations and states that with all the timesaving devices, parents must be helicoptering
2.) I say that society has made it harder for parents in some ways that counter some of the time-saving, (to imply not necessarily all helicoptering)
3.) Joe comments that parents are the society in this case
4.) I counter that it's not just parents but prior parents, media, etc
5.) Joe points to examples illustrating that women/moms have a lot of impact on how society has changed in these regards
6.) I counter that they couldn't have done it without others fanning the flames and (try to) make the point that even the language we are using here can make things worse because we quickly get into you/me or us/them mentalities.
7.) Shortly thereafter we've got conversation about men/women screwing eachother over.

P.S. Joe, sorry I called you Jim!

I see that the conversation has digressed a bit. It's now about men vs women, not about parenting or society or how we can make things better.

It DOES help to know the cause of the problem, but sitting here and pointing out the worst ways men and women have treated each other doesn't actually get us anywhere. Blaming parents wholesale for the current state doesn't help either because it throws out the people who act against the problems. Blame the people who are contributing to the problem - not just people who share some demographics with them!

I've gone on this thread before about sweeping generalizations. Previously, it was with respect to government workers. The basics are the same. Many are problems, but some aren't. If we haphazardly label all government workers as awful, that's one more hassle for the good ones to deal with... and less who will want to deal with it. Do we really want to just abandon the government to the worst ones by vilifying the good? Do we want to vilify everyone with kids because some are bad parents? Should we vilify every man because some are deadbeats? Should we vilify every woman because some use litigation to intimidate men?

If we do this, we've vilified everyone.

Lobster,

Hopefully my above diatribe will clarify, but just in case your eyes glaze over at the length of it...

I wasn't saying men should beat their wives (I hope that was obvious), nor that their size helps them. I was making a point (via failed sarcasm) that saying women "forced" men out of child rearing can't be the best way to describe it or entirely accurate. Maybe litigate in some cases, or nag (as I suggest). Note that I followed up with comments about men who are very involved.

The point was about using words with care and to not point fingers all over when it only belongs on a few in a group.

Hope that helps!

(and as a secondary point, I should not try to use sarcasm when there's a flu going through the house - I'm too tired to pull it off).

Um, sounds like this lady WANTS to have sex, though, not that she's forcing her husband not to or whatever.

So.... yeah. Quickies..

Seriously. Sex is like that for people... you stop having it and you lose momentum. Just start having it and you will get in the habit again and you will want it again.

It's like carbs. You don't eat 'em for a while, you don't miss 'em. But one taste of a delicious chocolate...

Just do it.

Shannon Mainly just want to touch on the communication differences part of it. Which is you see my posts as argumentative/combative which you see as will prevent anything from being accomplished; to me yours come off as trying to obfiscate/distract which to me seem to prevent anything from being accomplished.
Like giving the implication that folding clothes for one child today takes significantly more time than folding the clothes of 11 children did years ago, and that folding clothes is a significant part of parents not having any time today. Seems more an attempt to distract to me.

When my daughter was 11 or 12, and playing soccer, I got told by a couple of busy body mothers of other girls that I was a crappy mother because I was unwilling to stand out in 45 degree weather and "cheer her on"
I responded defensively that I had a thyroid condition (true) that kept me from handling cold well.
I have never had a "dad" question my parenting.

My response now, 15 years later would be "fuck you" and "mind your own damn business".

It is definitely the moms that establish and enforce parenting standards. I can only wish these bitches would stay at home, and fold the laundry.

Maybe someone has already made this point. I haven't read all the comments. But here's my advice anyway:

Reach over and scratch his head from time to time. (or whatever other "non-sexual" thing that you know he likes.)

It's not sex, but it kind of is. Amy, rightly, made the point that you should be expressing gratitude.

As soon as you stop thinking of sex as "sex", you'll be getting it so often that you'll long for the days that you were ambulatory. In other words, you're falling into the same trap that many men who watch porn and think that that's how it works fall into that says that sex is all about jamming a penis into a vagina.

A truly connected sex life begins with really appreciating the other person.

While I normally agree with our dear host, Amy, the forced "date night" thing can only lead to disaster. It turns intimacy into a fucking chore. You have to have the intimacy before the date night thing works. Only then, can it be added to your toolbox.

Rub his feet after a long day at work -- and tell him it's because you appreciate the long day at work that he's suffered on behalf of you and your new family. (yes, I know. You've also been making great sacrifices on behalf of your new family and are exhausted. Somebody has to get the ball rolling. You're writing in, so it sounds like you're a good candidate for that.)

Don't hide behind this "we're so exhausted" nonsense.

In no time flat, you'll be getting displays of the same sort of "non-sexual" affection. Only it's not "non-sexual". Reach over the great expanse of the couch and touch him. Hold his hand. That's sexy as shit.

It's not so exhausting to hold your husband's hand, is it? Do that, and you'll be getting jackhammered like a jail-house pillow in no time. Then, you'll be writing into Amy to figure out how to make him stop doing it like that.

My point is, reach over and touch your husband. He's right there and he wants that. Make no mistake ... that is sex -- and it leads to the penis-in-vagina kind. Follow my advice, and you'll be getting fucked three ways from Sunday.

Joe,

I don't think folding clothes of 1 child today takes significantly more time than for 11 of yesteryear. I was just pointing out (that was one example) that all the "time savings" we have don't add up to much given some of the other changes that have happened.

We obviously disagree on this point, but I thank you for reading my point of view.

Despite our dispute, I think we share significant common ground. 1.) we think societal standards aren't helping 2.) we'd both like to get to a solution.

So, I'll keep pushing for less TV-induced social standards, more thinking, reasonable independence for kids, and involvement (but not helicoptering) by both parents.

Fair?

I think some of the "time-saving" we have nowadays is offset by things like posting baby pics or chatting on Facebook or phones etc. When my parents had kids there was no Internet, cellphones, most didn't even have computers. These things are nice but they are "demanding" timewise and cognitively. It doesn't seem that way when you're childless and carefree but throw in parental responsibilities and those bits of time add up.

I suggest some basic time management will help. Make a list (and this is key - be VERY honest with yourself) of what you actually spend your time on during the week, including things you think you don't spend much time on. E.g. if you add it up, how much time you collectively spend say on Facebook, or talking with or visiting friends/family. If it adds up to an hour a week, then that was enough time for some decent sex (either a good proper session or at least three quickies per week, which from your husband's point of view would probably be like water in the desert right now). Ask yourself honestly which of the things on your list are more important than your marriage. If you start your list with the attitude "oh, there is nothing I could possibly cut back on", then might as well call a divorce lawyer. But I suspect if you tried, you'd find something. (Maybe you don't use Facebook, that was just an example, but you would find some other equivalent.)

Your husband might not be telling you it's bothering him yet, but if he is a male and has a penis, trust me, it's bothering him. He's probably only keeping quiet out of respect and politeness because you recently gave birth. After my wife gave birth, I initially tried to be patient, so I said little. I kept telling myself, "well this is all hard on her, so I'll be understanding, things will get better". I started complaining a bit maybe 3 or 4 months in, but when it reached about 7 or 8 months of very little intimacy I just couldn't take it anymore and we had huge fights and we're still struggling to get things back on track. Don't let it get that far, because the further you let it get, the more resentment builds up.

Also ask yourself things like, how often do you bath the baby? You definitely don't need to bath the baby every day - every second day at a maximum, and every third day here and there is also OK still. If you can bath baby just ONCE less often per week, congratulations, you have freed enough time for two quickies per week. If you are currently cooking, then getting takeout just once per week frees enough time for at least one quickie. If you cook, try sometimes cook two or three times as much, and either eat leftovers the next day or freeze portions for another day - just doing this once a week will free enough time for sex once a week. If you can watch just half an hour less TV a week, that's enough for a bit of sex once a week.

"Seriously. Sex is like that for people... It's like carbs. You don't eat 'em for a while, you don't miss 'em"

Hrm, for women maybe. I think men would OTOH miss sex, especially with their wife.

@Lori M "Make an effort, LW. Make the time."

I think time management is becoming a lost art. Maybe our grandparents just knew how to say "this is important, that is not", and that was that. Today's generation seems to have lost that ability. Maybe only having babies at 30 or later has also mdae it worse, as we spend our 20's enjoying leisure time, e.g. playing video games or chatting online, so by the time we have kids, these have become ingrained habits.

As for things like FB and similar, I agree that cutting back to save a marriage the good and obvious choice.

But, just to help people see through new-mommy glasses (which don't think well because your body hurts like hell & you haven't slept since Woodrow Wilson was president)...

If you're totally alone all day with a baby and spend 10 minutes on FB for what amounts to the only socialization you have those first few months (I know that's not always the case, but it can be), cutting back won't help. Why? Because you can't have a quickie if your spouse is at work (well, not the marriage-saving kind anyway) :)

That's not to say that you couldn't find other ways to save time... or just take some one up on those "let me know how I can help" comments (clean my house while I take a nap, hand me the baby, let me feed him, and then watch him for 2 hours while I shower and have lunch with my husband). :)

Again, just trying to share how thinking goes during those first few months (if you can call it "thinking").

Frankly, I think this would be less of a problem if families were geographically closer. New moms often feel isolated and lonely, but exhausted (and not just from baby-demands, but from giving birth too!). Dads come home from work and want to spend time with the baby & being intimate... but by then the mom is either passed out exhausted or would like to have a conversation.

It's not *easy* but it is a situation that is practically tailor-made to cause strife if you don't have a few outside helping hands... or at least a few other moms/friends around during the day to talk to :)

I guess I think that the moms are at fault in this situation, but I tend to go quite a bit easier on them since I remember just how awful I felt then... especially having serious post-partum pain, hormone-induced eczema flare-ups, and for my first child being very isolated.

For my second child, about a week after she was born I ended up crying to my husband that I was tired of hurting and wasn't 9 months of pain enough, and when would it stop?

I think Zzz has the right approach - a little patience is a great thing, but don't let it go too far.

'Insane. Don't they know the whole point of a playdate, party or other social engagement for the child is to give you a break? The two hours a week she's at her friends' house on Mondays is when I get my mopping done!!!'

Amen. My sister has smothered her daughter, and the results aren't pretty. She had to text her mother to let her know she got on the school bus safely every morning, had to let her know when she got home from school; this is from junior high on up, she was driven to elementary school and picked up.

Sis became a support person for the extra-curricular activity my niece was involved in, and she went on EVERY trip with them, not swapping out like the other parents, was at every event, my niece has no had a normal high school experience at all, with enough time away from her mother. If my niece were a stranger and I saw her at the mall or somewhere, I would think she was 15 or 16, and not 20. Without bumping her head, she has not grown like she should have.

Observations about things I'ver seen...

This issue is deeper than scheduling time together. I've met people who's very definition of themselves changes when they have a kid. From wife to mother, I must say that I don't see it as much with men I know, but I'm sure it happens.

Interestingly, I know a pair of lesbians that this very same thing happened to, one became the 'mom' and stopped being a wife... and the marriage limped along for a year and imploded.

I was so upset on the wife's behalf, and none of our other friends understood why, but she knows. My wife did precisely the same thing, she became a mom, and never became a wife again.

Kids require a lot of time and energy, certainly, but they shouldn't upend your image of self.

As a man, I don't stop being a lover, just because I am a father nor do I stop being a husband... I am all these things at once. It's anecdote and not data, but I have seen a number of women who define themselves as mother before or instead of all else.

This definition colors their interaction w/ their partners, and THAT is the root cause [my opinion] of these sorts of issues.

If you ar laying beside each other at night, exhausted by work that you've done, whatever it is, if you are together, it's enough. If you look at each other that old way, even if the baby is crying, it's enough.

When my first was a baby, his mother NEVER let me do anything alone with him, never let him out of her sight, even with her own mother. And everybody thought that was the best grizzly/tiger/hydra mother in the world. What it meant [though I didn't know it at the time] was that I WAS NOT A PARTNER.

She felt tired ind overwhelmed all the time because she refused help, and and called that virtue.

Sure sex is important, and it's not for naught that after the kid came along my wife was only interested in sex when she decided to get pregnant again. So finding time to bond physically is important, but the basis has to be that you are MATES.

Someone upthread mentioned that you don't necessarily have to have sex all the time, but connect with each other physically [scratching the head, woof!] That is a way of saying that "we are together, we are the parents of this kid, together."

NOT "I am the mom of this child, and oh, yeah, there is this guy, he's the father." Rather:
"This is my lovely wife, Matilda, and our kid Matildette." See how different?

You are NOT PARENTS FIRST, unless you are already divorced, of course.

Women, in my experience, and I am one, frequently confuse silence with agreement. They are so used to consensus and agreement from their female friends, and relatives, that they seldom realize that men, don't generally feel the same way they do.

That's a great passage.

Here's the thing I thing alot of new moms, and women in general, don't understand. Men have sex drives. Powerful sex drives. Smack you over the head with a club and put another baby in you sex drives. As in, if you don't give it up eventually, I'ma get is somewhere else sex drives.

Barring any medical complications, I think if new moms made more of an effort to see to their husbands needs then the divorce rate would be much lower. Being a mom of two, I completely understand the desire to sedate both husband and baby for the next eight hours in an effort to avoid a prison sentence. The thing is, you can't sedate a sex drive until it's convenient for both of you.

While it is crucial for husbands to attend to the needs of the new mom by being available for diaper changes and walmart runs, it is perhaps even more crucial for mom to remember all the fun both he and SHE had by putting the squalling little mud bug there in the first place.

Nobody in their right mind would consent to a mindless routine of formula and wet wipes. This includes the glowing new mother. By meeting the needs of her husband in the bedroom, she is also meeting her own need for intimacy and fun.

New mom or parents of teenagers, I say women who just ain't feelin it break out the lube and hop in bed anyway. If your husband has any idea what he's doing, your gonna start to enjoy yourself whether you want to or not.

Anniversary is the most important part in our lives. The day of anniversary is the most memorable day for throughout the year. Thank You for sharing your story.