Sounds sensible, if you ask me. I would go a little further, though, advising that public flogging of women is not just "unacceptable," but "illegal." "If you think you can flog your wife in public, or in private, for that matter, you will imprisoned if you act upon this belief."

By the way, your last paragraph reminds me of a woman in Tampa during the Gasparilla (our version of Mardi Gras) was apparently raped, and went to the police. Unfortunately, she had an outstanding warrant and was arrested. She also claims she was refused her "part two" of the Morning After pill, because it was against the religious beliefs of the nurse who was supposed to administer it.

I heard that. Such nurses -- who can't perform the entire job -- should instead work at Denny's.

I think cabbies shouldn't refuse ride for blind people with Seeing-Eye dogs, but refusing a ride to anybody carrying alcohol is reasonable; so are refusing ride to anyone carrying weapons, drugs, or smoke during ride if they so incline. Cabbies are not tax payer supported, so they have no obligation to serve everyone. Setting reasonable limits to who they will serve is, IMO, not civil, but socially acceptable.

I, for one, would like to see George Bush be refused taxi ride once after he leaves office (if he ever takes taxi), for his disservice to this country and the world. That's a new way for cabbies to protest in addition to honking horns.

Oh, that drives me crazy. Nobodys asking nurses to take the pill or advertise it, or even to offer it. Simply requiring them to hand it over. As in, hey, I paid for that, hand it over, miss. Do they also not dispense Vicoden unless they're sure the person is really in pain? Now sir, I understand that you just sawed your thumb off, but are you sure that you can't just suck it up?

I've been following the news story from Tampa. The woman had a warrant because she was reported as having failed to pay restitution for a petty theft committed when she was a teenager. She had no record as an adult, and according to an article a day or so later, that was actually a clerical error and she had in fact made restitution. She was in the police officer's car, taking them to the scene of the attack, when they found out about the warrant and slapped cuffs on her. The investigation into her assault was halted during the two days she was in jail, which probably diminished the chances of them actually finding the man who raped her.
I hope she sues everyone remotely connected to what happened to her, and that nurse needs to get booted out on her ass. You have a problem with medication? Don't become a fucking pharmacist or nurse, idiot.
Of course, that treatment is about what you can expect from police officers.

> to anybody carrying alcohol
> is reasonable

Next week: Women with naked faces and visible necks. The week after that: Women.

While cabbies aren't publicly funded, they are publicly licensed and regulated. You can't just buy a yellow car and pick up faires. In 2004 a New York City taxi medallion went for $360,000.

This rather modest declaration "set the clock back for decades" in Muslim-Quebecois relations? Is it just me, or are they a little thin-skinned?

Kind of makes me wonder why fundie Muslims would move here in the first place. Do they really think their kids are going to keep adhering to their wacked-out beliefs as they get older? Especially the girls - they're going to look around and see the other girls their age going to college and having lives of their own, and jump ship. We have goofy Christian cults here in the USA, but for every nutbag they convert one of their kids grows up and gets out. Globalization and the Internet are only going to advance the speed of it.

Well, maybe not if the birth rate of the fundies keeps going at the rate it's going.

> see the other girls their age
> going to college and having
> lives of their own

It worked that way with the Italians, Irish and Germans, but it's a less probable track for Hispanics. Truth is, it's a lot of work to go to college, and unless you've seen the payoff for someone up close in your life, you might not bother. I think it works like this: If your parents lived lives of riskless isolation and closed-mindedness, you're at risk to do so to.

Nice to see people say something nice for globalization.

Allow me to be the second. I'm no economist (far from it), but I think globalization -- the spread of economic and, in turn, social values -- is the best shot we have at combatting radical Islam.

I totally agree that if people don't want to live the way we live, they shouldn't live here. And stoning, if nothing else, seems terribly inefficient. I'm against stoning.

However, there seems to be a subtext to this story. This is a town of only 1300 people, in the really cold part of rural Canada. The story doesn't say, but I doubt there are few if any Muslims there at all. If they had been stoning their women, or setting them on fire, it would be fairly lazy journalism not to mention that. Even in large cities with large immigrant populations, you don't read about it that much.

So it seems that this declaration is not a response to an actual problem, but more of a "Please don't come here, even if you want to just drink beer and watch curling like the rest of us."

It's as if you put a big note on the AdviceGoddess blog that said "No Posting Comments in Arabic, or issuing of Fatwahs!" It would be inappropriate, and stupid, to post in Arabic, but it hasn't up until now been a problem. The note would be taken as insulting.

The cabbie thing, though, I totally agree with you.

I think that because some Muslims come from former French colonies, they will tend to settle in Quebec rather than anywhere else in Canada because of the language issue. Quebec also may not get the mix of immigrants that a city like Toronto may get, so they may not feel as much of a need to adapt to Quebec culture. That may explain why they are more xenophobic than a bigger city.

The radicals' reactions make me want to scream. Really. Loudly. Right into their ears.

I take my equality for granted - Yes, I might be statistically likely to be paid less for a job than a male counterpart doing the exact same thing, but I'd like to think we're making progress. On the other hand, however, I am protected from legal and socially acceptable beatings by my husband (if I had one...). It seems absurd to many of us that some women don't have this protection - that the mindsets of their societies are such that it is reasonable to assume one will be beaten by her husband

It blows my mind.

This article released by the Canadian town is a very reasonable (and polite) public announcement. If I go to a radical Islamic country I would be forced (not expected - b/c to me, that almost implies that I'd have a choice) to follow their laws and regulations - even if I am in complete disagreement with them. That would be the burden I must bear for the privilege of visiting their country. I'd be sure to pack extra eye liner. Oh sorry, was that rude?

In the same way, it is reasonable to ask that our commonly agreed about social values be respected and followed. Religion isn't a shield and their religious values and beliefs aren't automatically "OK" - yes, we have the freedom to follow the religion of our choice, but the freedom is limited by the bounds of our social's values (not beating people with vaginas).

Keep up the good work - I am sending everyone. The articles you find are useful and I feel that everyone should be well versed on this topic as it will surely become more pressingly important as time goes by.

Certain professions, rather than having gender/ sex requirements, have physical requirements that candidates must pass in order to get the job; for example, the profession of firefighting. Are pharmacies required to hire people whose religious convictions prevent them from being able to perform their duties, and if so, isn't this religious-based discrimination - as in, you get to get paid to not do your job, if you have the right religion?

Leonard: ...race relations were concerned.

When did Arabs stop being White?

Jon just made me snort Jack Daniels out of my nose. I, too, am against stoning. I'll take a guillotine for my money anyday.

The problem for many of the women, it seems to me, anyway, I'm no expert, and my sister-in-law is Afghani and is more or less "Westernized" and not a prisoner to her family (though my brother, um, had to pay a, um, dowry), but I think it's frightening to see the other girls doing what they want, while knowing that you'd get beaten for doing the same. I've read two books, but I don't know if they're in English translation about immigrants in Germany, and it can be quite frightening. Here's a link to an article from a man I took a course from, though, so you can get sort of an idea. The women in the story wrote the books I read:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/04/magazine/04berlin.html?ex=1291352400&en=2a16b54522cbc21d&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

Dowry, hmmmmm, we do it differently here. You have to pay when you want to get rid of them.

Off the top of my head, I have a few reservations with the childrearing policy. For example, it rules out homeschooling, on the assumption that one cannot be homeschooled and "integrated into society" at the same time. (Sure, a lot of weirdos have chosen to homeschool their kids. But weirdos can be found anywhere, including teaching positions in public and private schools.) I'm also wondering if spanking is considered a form a violence against children. If I were a parent, I'd like to think that I wouldn't spank my children -- but spanking a kid is hardly an act so reprehesible that it should disqualify one from setting up residence in any particular geographic area.

The comments on Christmas decorations also made me think that I'm generally uncomfortable with the whole idea of explicit policies on acceptable public culture. Dynamic cultures evolve, just as languages do, and this happens because people experiment, make mistakes, "push the envelope," etc. Rules to establish acceptable and unacceptable public culture probably inhibit this kind of reinvigorating change, leaving us all a lot more simple-minded and dull. So, in protecting yourself against islamofascism (or whatever you want to call it), be careful what you ask for.

I didn't agree with everything in there either. What I did like is the spirit of the thing: "Look, here's how we do things here, and if that doesn't work for you..."

There actually is a bit about democratically deciding change at the end of the PDF.

"When did Arabs stop being White?"

Unofficially, Arab men stopped being "white" (whatever that means) after 9/11. But the women can still pass, in general.

Islam is not a race, and there are plenty of people converting who don't look like what you'd expect. For me, the worries about Islam have nothing to do with color -- it's a simple life or death issue. A number of Muslims want to convert or kill the rest of us. And I say that as somebody who is no friend of any religion. Because of the death thing of more than a handful of Muslims, that religion scares me in particular.

I think you need psychotherapy for your irrational anxieties Amy. You have more chance of dying from a dog bite than you do of dying at the hands of a Muslim extremist. I know y'all are still suffering a form of PTSD from 9/11, but please, a little perspective. You're supposed to be a professional.

Really, Imelda? I used to walk through the World Trade Center almost daily. I moved out of New York City a few years before 9-11, but I'd walk through the mall there when I shopped at Century 21 on Cortlandt Street.

You posted some really ugly shit over at the burqini entry. I'll paste them in here, and my response:

IMELDA POSTS: I find a lot of these comments to be very ignorant and ethnocentric. Everyone has a right to practice their own religion. Just because you don't understand it or agree with it doesn't make it wrong. This Muslimophobia is nothing short of ridiculous. A handful of extremists have carried out some despicable acts in the name of Islam, just like a handful of extremists have carried out some despicable acts in the name of IRA, KKK and many other fringe groups. It doesn't warrant wholesale ridicule or discrimination against a whole race, religion or culture. Leave the Muslim women to their burqinis. If they're happy, it's their own business. What is it to you if they can't swim 100m in world record time?

Posted by: Imelda at February 3, 2007 12:49 PM

IMELDA POSTS: I had to laugh at the comment about Islam infiltrating countries and slowly taking over with their Muslim practices being introduced covertly....kinda reminds me of McDonald's, Coca-cola and rap music! Hahahahaha. Half the world has been Americanised. The other half is Muslim. I'm beginning to see your problem.

Seriously, everyone has a right to practice their own religion. Just because you don't understand it or agree with it doesn't make it wrong. This Muslimophobia is nothing short of ridiculous. A handful of extremists have carried out some despicable acts in the name of Islam, just like a handful of extremists have carried out some despicable acts in the name of the IRA, the KKK and democracy. It doesn't warrant wholesale ridicule or discrimination against an entire race, religion or culture. Leave the Muslim women to their burqinis. If they're happy, it's their own business. What is it to you if they can't swim 100m in world record time?

You don't like burqinis. I don't like gangsta fashion or kids wearing their caps backwards. Tomayto, tomarto, get over it.

Posted by: Imelda at February 3, 2007 1:05 PM

IMELDA POSTS: "Um, because you believe, without evidence, that there's a big man in the sky watching over you and telling you what to do doesn't mean you're entitled to tax dollars for private swimming pools".

And because you believe, without evidence, that there's a "big" man in the whitehouse watching over you doesn't mean you're entitled to tax dollars buying bombs and bullets and killing thousands of foreign civilians while people in your own country are going without education, healthcare and employment. It's a matter of global perspective, I suppose?

Posted by: Imelda at February 3, 2007 1:12 PM

AMY RESPONDS: Astrology buffs don't blow up airplanes and buildings in the name of their ridiculous belief. Everyone does NOT have a right to "practice their own religion" if it leads to the murder of other people.

Your last comment is short on logic...doesn't really work for the purpose you're trying to make it work for.

P.S. I wasn't for going into Iraq, and I voted for the lameass idiot Kerry, although I'm not a Democrat and loathed him with about every ounce of my being.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 3, 2007 1:47 PM

IMELDA POSTS: Ridiculous beliefs? You believe in truth, justice and the American way? You believe that drag queen meets Dracula look is working for you? You believe it's ok to dress miniature dogs in clown collars and palm tree ponytails? *shrug* Each to their own brand of ridiculous I guess.
Timothy McVey wasn't a Muslim. He was an American citizen. Kinda proves you don't have to believe in burqinis to wanna blow something up. You just have to believe that you are right and "THEY" are wrong and want to have people pay attention to you. Now who could hold a ridiculous belief like that?

You Americans bleat on about freedom of speech and you think it's ok to say whatever you want and insult whomever you want and live however you want and believe whatever you want because you're "free" and it's a "democracy". Perhaps you could afford Muslim women the same courtesy that you consider your right and let them wear their burqinis in peace. It is a huge leap from covering your modesty with a burqini to killing people who don't share your beliefs. I think you need to review your own concept of the ridiculous.

Posted by: Imelda at February 4, 2007 6:52 AM

IMELDA POSTS: PS. You don't need to believe in religion to want to kill people. How many people are killed or injured each year in America due to guns? Oh, but hang on, there's another ridiculous belief, that everyone has the right to bear arms. Sorry, it's not a ridiculous belief, it's a "constitutional right". Here's the thing Amy, some nutbags own guns. That doesn't mean every gun owner is a nutbag.

Muslims don't blow up aeroplanes and buildings. Terrorists blow up aeroplanes and buildings. But not every Muslim is a terrorist. If you can't tell the difference between practising religion and practising terrorism, then you have a problem.

Sorry Amy, I think my logic is working a bit better for me than yours.

Posted by: Imelda at February 4, 2007 7:27 AM

AMY RESPONDS: We have freedom of speech, meaning I can criticize Muslim women for wearing burquinis and they can criticize me for looking like Western "hoor." That's part of a free and open society. Clearly, you'd be much happier in Saudi Arabia. I'm hoping to prevent our society from becoming Saudi Arabia. Smaller countries in Europe (and then New Zealand) are already well on their way.

There's one Tim McVeigh...and maybe about five other nuts, and lots of Muslims who want us dead or converted. It isn't (any longer) part of the Christian religion to kill the infidels. Too many Muslims are living in the middle ages.

You believe that drag queen meets Dracula look is working for you?

Not surprised you're a hypocrite...and kind of a rude cunt to boot.

You believe it's ok to dress miniature dogs in clown collars and palm tree ponytails?

AMY RESPONDS: I don't think it will kill 3,000 people five blocks from my old New York City apartment, and lead to dead NYC firefighters, and lots of my old neighbors with respiratory problems, do you?

Of course every Muslim isn't a terrorist, but far too many are, and there's far too much preaching in big mosques about killing the infidel. KILLING us. As I posted in today's entry, could you imagine if a pastor at St. John The Divine in NYC stood up and said Muslims should be murdered or converted? This happens every day in mosques.

Sorry, but where's the outrage about the Muslims preaching killing? Your logic is working a bitter better for you than mine? My way of life entails libertarian philosphy -- my right to punch you in the nose ends where your nose begins. As for your philosphy, well, you sould like somebody who should be wiretapped by the people looking for people who want the rest of us dead.

I'm against restrictive religion of any kind. But, Christians who see me posting against their god belief manage to respond without attacking my looks and defending murderers. How odd and creepy that you see more reason to attack me than to attack Muslims not only hot on killing us infidels but their own. Where's the outrage when there's Muslim on Muslim violence? Muslims sure can work up a frenzy when somebody draws a couple of cartoons criticizing their religion: again, part of free and open western society.

Again, I believe there are planes to the primitive republic of Saudi Arabia departing daily. There, I think you'd be much more comfortable...not being allowed to drive, or allowed many rights at all. Is this shitty? Sure it is. But, it has nothing to do with my dog wearing a sweater.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 4, 2007 7:51 AM

Oh, Imelda, please link to a photo of you for evaluation. Nude is fine. Or in your burqini, if you must.

Hahahahahah!

Saudi Arabia?

>>>>I'm

Did they teach you that at community college too?
Go back to your Soho Street corner Amy.

-still laughing,
Yours sincerely,
Imelda.

Where's the photo of you, Imelda? You dish it out so well...let's appraise your looks. What my looks or dressing up my dog have to do with Muslims advocating (and indeed, doing) murder in the name of their religion. I'm no friend to Christianity or Judaism, but at least, save for a nut or two not sanctioned by the church, they practice their evidence free belief in "god" without slaughtering the rest of us.

And you don't respond to the fact that I was, indeed, in danger from The Religion Of Peace, walking through the WTC regularly.

You're irrational Amy. I see no point in arguing with zealots.

Really? All the text you dropped here says otherwise. Calling me a zealot is cute. Am I seriously committed to the continuation of freedom of speech, freedom for women, and against death of homosexuals, or anyone in the name of religion? Yes, I am. If that makes me a zealot, then, it's a compliment.

On the bright side for you, I'm an atheist and my beliefs don't allow murder of people who don't agree with me or believe as I do, so there's no danger of death for you from leaving critical comments here. Ask Ayaan Hirsi Ali how she feels after having to go into hiding for criticizing The Religion Of Peace.

P.S. What I think is really making you turn tail is my demand, in light of your criticism of my looks, that we see a photo of you. What, 300lbs and a bit of a mustache?

You dish it out awful well. Let's assess your looks.

Ok Amy, you were ridiculing Muslim women and their burqinis. Hence my comment about your appearance. You don't enjoy being ridiculed. What makes you think Muslim women enjoy your criticisms? You said freedom of speech allows you to say what you want about them. Therefore, I am allowed to say what I want about you. But, when I do, you get all upset about it. You were calling various beliefs "ridiculous". I was pointing out that ridiculous is in the eye of the beholder. The point was obviously lost on you.

I was not, at any time, defending murderers. I was defending the right of Muslim women to wear burqinis.

I can dish it out? Take a look at what you've been writing Amy. You dish out way more than I have done. It wasn't about assessing looks. It was about being free to wear whatever one wants without public ridicule. You don't like it. So don't do it.

As for Muslims who advocate the murder of people who don't share their belief system; I unequivocally condemn them. Likewise, I unequivocally condemn the perpetrators of terrorism everywhere. I don't happen to share your belief that the majority of Muslims think that way. I DO happen to believe that Muslimophobia is way out of control since 9/11.

I also don't believe that the constant stream of negative attention given to Muslims is warranted or helpful. If nothing else, it breeds hostility against the US and is more likely to make you a target.

Look at how you reacted to my criticisms. Imagine receiving that from a whole country every day of your life. It's certainly not going to endear you to anyone.

You claim to be a therapist and yet you show little understanding of human nature or self-awareness.

It is my belief that you are doing damage to yourself and others.

Hate breeds hate. I believe I have demonstrated that quite well by the reaction you have had to a handful of comments posted by a complete stranger.

Maybe it's time to take a step back and re-evaluate your motives and what it is you're trying to achieve?

You've helped me illustrate a point Amy. I wonder if anyone is enlightened enough to understand it.

Good luck to you in your future.

Hey Imelda, if I remember the burquini discussion correctly, it really didn't have anything to do with the burquinis themselves. I really don't give a crap what people want to wear to the pool. In fact, there are a few heifer-sized neighbors of mine who would look a lot better in a burquini than letting their lard hang out of a string bikini.

But those pools in New Zealand were public, meaning everyone was paying for them through taxes. That means everyone should be able to use them, and the Muslim women were wanting the whole thing shut down for two hours so only they could be there. No one was telling them they couldn't wear burquinis. They were welcome to show up wearing whatever they wanted and go swimming right along with everyone else. But they wanted the pool off limits to all those people who were paying for said pool in the first place, just so they could get some special treatment.

So I say, if you're that weirded out about seeing someone's naked arms or legs, you have two options: pay for your own pool, or stay home. You don't have the right to, in effect, order me out of the pool I helped pay for, just so you can have it all to yourself.

Oh, and P.S. to Brenda - thanks for posting that very interesting link. I read every single page and am putting one or two of those books in my shopping cart on Amazon. In fact, I got so engrossed in the article yesterday that I was a half-hour late getting to a party. :-) That's okay though - I ended up drinking too much wine anyway.

I had a rather silly, repressive religious upbringing, myself. I know what it's like to realize that most of what you've been taught is useless, and to have to un-learn a lot of things and replace stupid beliefs with others that will actually help you lead a good life. I'm out on my own now, living that life I wanted and being happy that I ditched those dumb beliefs and took ownership of my own life. But I never once - not once - had to worry that I would be beaten or killed for leaving that religion. To be trapped like that - I can't imagine what a dark place it would be. It makes me want to go volunteer at a women's shelter and help those women escape their abusive families.

You don't enjoy being ridiculed. What makes you think Muslim women enjoy your criticisms?

Here's the difference: If I dish it out, it's because I can take it in return.

Now it's your turn to post a photo or a link to a photo of you for my appraisal. You're a coward -- you attack only when you can remain nameless and faceless. I post under my full identity.

Being ridiculed isn't my favorite way to spend an afternoon, but I celebrate your freedom to do it. And there's a huge difference between me and a good many Muslims. If you do a cartoon ridiculing me, do you think I'll throw trash cans through the window of the Saudi Arabian embassy?

Pirate Jo is quite right. You can walk around in a pup tent at home, but to cover your entire body in a modern society puts the rest of us at risk. There are a number of stories of criminals -- male criminals -- escaping in burkhas in England. And you have zero right to demand the public pool bend to your primitive religious needs. You don't like it, stay the fuck home.

As for Muslims who advocate the murder of people who don't share their belief system; I unequivocally condemn the

You've written, what, 6,000 words here about how awful I am (I'm not a therapist, by the way...you have a shallow grasp on so many facts), and finally, you find it within you to get to this.

Therein lies the problem. All the gnashing about insults to Muslims. Big fucking deal. If I still lived my old apartment in NYC, thanks to The Religion Of Peace, I'd probably have lifelong respiratory problems, like so many of my old neighbors.

Fuck you and your "religion of peace" til millions of those "peace loving" Muslims come out and put their necks on the line to say Islam shouldn't be a religion of murder and hate. To say you have no right to convert anybody or to tax people simply for not believing in your particular irrational bullshit.

If Muslims don't come out loud and clear in opposition to killing in the name of the religion, the way I see it, they're accessories to murder for keeping silent.

If atheists were murdering or threatening to murder anyone who didn't live rationally, I'd be working my ass off against them. There are millions of Muslims in the world. Maybe a handful or two handfuls come out against violence in the name of the religion. That's not fucking good enough.

Good luck to you in your future

Oh, please. At least I'm sincere.

Where's your photo? Coward. Slimebag with your covert attacks on me, hiding your face all the while.

Yet again, I fail to be impressed by the "integrity" of a defender of the faith. What a surprise.

Remember: If you don't speak out against murder, when it seems sure to happen and you have a possibility of preventing it, you're an accessory to the crime.

Murderer.

Charming.

If you're an example of the upstanding American citizen, I'm beginning to understand why the world hates you.

Let's get this straight. You choose to have your face on the internet. You choose not to be anonymous. If you're going to put yourself out there and make the kind of comments you make, then be prepared to wear the comments you receive.

Furthermore, if you consider not speaking out about murder to make a person an accessory, then lets talk about the atrocities committed against the rest of the world by Americans.

Cambodia. Vietnam. Korea. HIROSHIMA. Iraq.

MURDERER!

You're ridiculous. Call me a coward all you want. You have me mistaken for someone who cares what nutbags think of me. Take your Ritalin and have a nice day.

If you're an example of the upstanding American citizen, I'm beginning to understand why the world hates you.

For advocating freedom of thought and speech, for being against violence? For saying homosexuals shouldn't be killed for being gay? For saying women should be allowed to drive and men should not be allowed to stone them in the name of religion? For being against "honor killings"?

How barbaric of me.

I've been speaking out from the start against the war in Iraq. Excuse me if I wasn't born for a few of the others.

You're busy speaking out against insults against Islam. Spilled pages and pages of text about how mean I am. So I'm mean, rude, vulgar. I cop to all of it. You attack me -- but all I'm doing is throwing out my opinion. What do you do to stop the people strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up both other Muslims and the rest of the world?

Murderer.

Amy: "For advocating freedom of thought and speech, for being against violence? For saying homosexuals shouldn't be killed for being gay? For saying women should be allowed to drive and men should not be allowed to stone them in the name of religion? For being against "honor killings"?"

No, for calling me a slime bag, a rude c*nt and a murderer because I have the audacity to disagree with you.

Amy:"You attack me -- but all I'm doing is throwing out my opinion."

DITTO lady. But you call ME a hypocrite whilst being blind to your own hypocrisy.

Amy: "What do you do to stop the people strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up both other Muslims and the rest of the world?"

If you seriously believe what you're doing in anyway helps to stop people strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up other Muslims and the rest of the world, then you are seriously deluded. Your kind of hate preaching is just as bad as the Muslims'. But when YOU do it, it's called Freedom of Speech. You are no better than the Muslim extremists.

You are a danger to us all as you prove to the peace-loving Muslims that what the extremists say about Americans is true.

So, next time a Muslim blows up an American, give yourself a good pat on the back and say "I did that". Great job Amy! You go girl!

Murderer.

Cunt. Not a big deal.

You attacked my looks. I find that kind of cunty.

Yet, note that I didn't erase it.

If you seriously believe what you're doing in anyway helps to stop people strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up other Muslims and the rest of the world, then you are seriously deluded. Your kind of hate preaching is just as bad as the Muslims'. But when YOU do it, it's called Freedom of Speech. You are no better than the Muslim extremists.

Um, Muslims are blowing people up in the name of their religion. Orthodox Jews are not. If they were, you can slip the words "Orthodox Jews" in everywhere I wrote Muslim, and I wouldn't have a problem in the world with it. I'm not against Muslims, I'm against murder.

So, next time a Muslim blows up an American, give yourself a good pat on the back and say "I did that". Great job Amy! You go girl!

I attack Christians and all god believers all the time. Christians and other believers think it's just awful. Your post above brings me to the question: How come only insulted Muslims will take my comments as a reason to blow people up?

Wouldn't it have been nice if Mohammed Atta and friends had just stood outside the WTC screaming "Cunt!"?

Amy: "C*nt. Not a big deal"

Not to you. But in my part of the world, it is... and I find it highly offensive. Just because you think what you say is ok doesn't mean others agree.

Amy: "Muslims.... Orthodox Jews ... I attack Christians all the time.... only insulted Muslims will take my comments as a reason to blow people up".

No. Amy. SOME Muslims will take your comments as a reason to blow people up. Although, I doubt that any Muslim finds you specifically important enough to declare Jihad against. It is highly likely, however,(and the statistics support my theory) that some American you insult one day will pull a 9mm on you and personally open up a can of Jihad on your arse. (note my comments elsewhere about the statistical probability of you dying at the hands of a Muslim. Oh and don't pull the WTC thing on me here because you WEREN'T in any danger, you moved out of NY years before the attacks. Therefore, you didn't almost die. You were nowhere near death. Hence the statistical probabilities stand).

My problem with you, Amy, is that you have been trying to say that ALL Muslims want non-Muslims dead. I am saying THEY DON'T. That is it. That is all.

Likewise, it would be wrong of me to assume that ALL Americans are like you (God help us).

Amy, you have stated elsewhere that you believe that Christians see God as this Charlton Heston-ish figure in the sky looking over them. You have made equally ridiculous statements about Muslims. I doubt that you really have any idea what Christians or Muslims think. I further doubt that you have any interest or intention of bothering to find out.

Have you studied the Bible or the Koran? Or have you just picked up a quote or two from popular literature and taken the interpretation literally?

I find your gross generalisations to be ignorant and offensive and I believe you do more harm than good in making the comments you make.

You say people do not have the right to practice their religion if it means others will be murdered. Well, Amy, I don't believe people have the right to freedom of speech when it harms others either. And in my country, which is a democracy, we actually have laws that place limits on freedom of speech in the event that what we say and do incites hatred or violence against a racial or religious community. You could do with a small dose of that kind of accountability.

Eventually, we are all accountable for the impact we have on others in our lifetime. And Amy, I have literally saved more than one life during my time here on Earth, so I feel I have at least TRIED to make a difference.

I wonder how you, a "post-Jewish athiest" will be fare in the end.

Amy: "Wouldn't it have been nice if Mohammed Atta and friends had just stood outside the WTC screaming "Cunt!"?"

I don't disagree. And wouldn't it have been nice if George W and Saddam Hussein climbed into a ring and duked it out instead of sending thousands of innocent people to their deaths?

Alas, this is not the way of the world. And until we can view each other's differences with tolerance and respect and until we can approach conflict with understanding and conciliation, there will continue to be bloodshed, and peace will forever elude us.

If you and I cannot get it together on an internet page, what hope is there for peace between cultures with all the barriers of language, pride and religion?

Oh and don't pull the WTC thing on me here because you WEREN'T in any danger, you moved out of NY years before the attacks. Therefore, you didn't almost die.

One of my close friends' husbands was only saved because she had an early meeting so he had to take the kids to school that day, making him half an hour late for work. I go to New York frequently and walk through the WTC -- or did -- often. 3,000 people were murdered. Whether I was in the line of fire is immaterial. Anybody who does this in the name of religion or for any other reason is a barbarian. It's more barbaric when the courage comes from being sold a bill of goods about getting to fuck 72 virgins in the end.

You could do with a small dose of that kind of accountability.

What am I saying here that is not the truth? Muslims are killing people in the name of the religion. This is evil and primitive.

Again, the issue, if Muslims murder because their religion is criticized is not with the critics but with the Muslims.

Nobody has the right to take any other person's life.

You wonder how I'll fare in the end as a post-Jewish atheist? It looks like I'll be worm meat just like anybody who dies. I do plenty for other people, but that's not what this is about, now is it?

The big question: Why aren't you on some Islamic site screaming for the murders in the name of the religion to stop instead of railing against me, a girl who hates violence and belief without evidence in god and has a tendency to use very dirty words?

If you and I cannot get it together on an internet page, what hope is there for peace between cultures with all the barriers of language, pride and religion?

Oh, hurl.

I was against and am against the war, and I'm virulently against murder in the name of religion. You got a problem with that?

And if you're not using your energy to advocate against it -- what are you?

You just don't get it, do you Amy?

*walks away shaking head*

Arseholes Arseholes everywhere and not a brain to think.

If she's *walking away*, let's hope she stays away. But she probably won't, she's having too much fun. Loser. She's probably from Kentucky or somewhere just having fun with British spellings.

Frankly, Amy, I think the drag queen meets Dracula look suits you very nicely.

Jo, I'm glad you liked the link. The German standpoint I think is very interesting, given the emphasis on their history and its implications in all this. It happens here, too, though, and not just with this, but with illegal immigration. The mayor of Herndon, VA just wrote an editorial last week that said, "Is it asking too much that people enter the country legally?" because everytime you say something negative about illegal immigration, you're a bigot or worse, instead of someone who just likes it when people don't break the law. Same thing to a lesser extent with honor killings, it seems.

With regard to the swimming pool thing, people have no right to expect special treatment. I don't understand why so many people think they're so effing special. I don't remember the exact wording of the blog entry, Amy, but I'm pretty sure you weren't making fun of burqinis. Anyway.

You know, a lot of this, though, you have to just chalk it up to being what it is. Crazy religious people from more oppressive countries have always moved around to practice their crazy beliefs. Look at the Puritans, and those Falun Gong people from China. And when these Turkish people were moving to Germany, Istanbul was extremely secularized and women weren't allowed to wear traditional Muslim dress. So they have to go to a more free society to do that. Unfortunately, along with the hijab can come a lot of baggage, to say the least.

I have traveled a great deal within the Middle East and made some personal observations. I've been to Jordan, Egypt, Saudia Arabia, Lebanon and Tunisia. Other nations/city state: Malaysia, Indonesia and Singapore. In the Asian countries it was slightly different. There is a strong Confucian feel towards Islam. A practicality and openness to change. Actually, I prefer the term adapting against its own original intentions. In Malaysia alone. All the clerics' sermons need government approval before being preached to the faithful. Nothing critical of the government. Nothing that will incite violence against the nonmuslim minority. In Southern Thailand there has been an unreported civil war between the Thai army and muslim extremists for the last few years. When the extremists hide in mosques.

The problem with Islam (Arabic variety) is the literally interpretation of their holy instruction manual. Judaism and Christianity's holy books are 'inspired' by God. So there is room for interpretation or in my words selective worship. The overall interpretation of Islam is that it's the 'direct' word of God and the direct word of God cannot be interpreted or adjusted to adapt to the chaning times. If the word of God can have different meanings to different people... then what is the value of the God?

Salman Rushdie said it much better: "Out of all the big 3 monotheistic faiths. Islam is unique, because it was developed during recorded history (7th Century) and it has never gone through a strong modern secular movement."

There is also a major cultural baggage that underpins Islam. It is called the 'inshallah philosophy' (If God Wills It). So every aspect of the proper Muslim must use this particular mental filter in their daily life. A student: should I study for the test tomorrow? Inshallah. Will it rain tomorrow? Inshallah. Will I see you tomorrow? Inshallah and so on. Another expressions used: "if it is written." Which has a similar meaning to Inshallah. Should women stop wearing veils? If it is written. Should women be able to drive a car? If it is written. How about a job? If it is written. It would be easy to add examples of the psychotic thoughts by suicidal-homicidal bombers and adding inshallah. Too easy, but you get the point.

Now in the West, we use similar expression (its in Fate's hands, God willing, Ojalá) with one huge difference. It is only an expression. Over the centuries it has lost its meaning. Also, religion has a less impact in most Western nations. To a Muslim it has a lot of meaning and purpose. It is the basis of decision, the lack of decision or just an excuse for not thinking for themselves. Just toss it on Allah. Or an old Jesuit joke on the worlds shortest prayer: Fuck it.

Now with Islam's current condition... are we not surprised that it is incapable of adapting? Difficulties with the allure of Western beliefs systems. Emancipation of women. Modernity. Technological devices that constantly defy the 7th Century logic of inshallah. Surges in small scale violence by a small number of violent psychopaths made for TV cameras. With eventual escalation from the West. We all know the vicious circle.

Now, I am an atheist. I will equally criticize, mock and insult any faith. From the most benign (Jainism) to the most homicidal (Islam). Also, I will be brutal to the the notion that thrives in the West that all opinions, viewpoints and comments are equal and valid. No they are not.

So, Imelda do not use the ‘my country is better than yours’ excuse when arguing. It is an empty canard used by 10 year olds in the school yard. Okay? Lets try to be adults. Have an adult debate. I will tell you a little secret about different countries. It may come to a shock to you. All countries are not perfect. So please, stop pretending.

http://www.doublestandards.org/enemies.htm

Expecting a mea culpa? How about a mea maxima culpa? Keep waiting on both. So what is your point Crystal?

Also, I'm well aware of the excesses of the US governments actions in various nations. For every atrocity preformed by the US... I can match a positive action the evil American Empire has contributed to the world. So does that cancel each other?

One thing many people seem to forget that the rate of killing in wars around the world has steadily declined after 1945. Even with the development of nuclear weapons and other advances in weapon technology. Include the casualties from the various overt and covert operations listed on that particular site. Would anyone consider that progress?

What would my point be? That it is okay for the US to conduct these type of operations? Nope. My point is that any example of political pamphleteering (from either the left/right) can be contradicted by other forms of evidence. Unless you embrace all the information that exists. Even the evidence that will contradict your own personal political, religious and social views. It is what mature adults call intellectual honesty.

Besides being ignorant of human nature. You can include the basic understanding of statistics to the list. Lets try to keep the list as short as possible.

She's actually from Australia, and she's probably in bed. She's gotten a few friends to help her...Crystal is from there, too, and Rose, a woman from Malaysia is posting on the burqini entry.

Now, I am an atheist. I will equally criticize, mock and insult any faith. From the most benign (Jainism) to the most homicidal (Islam). Also, I will be brutal to the the notion that thrives in the West that all opinions, viewpoints and comments are equal and valid. No they are not.

Exactly.

And I will equally criticize, mock and insult any ignorant American.
Also, I will be brutal to the notion that thrives in America that only the opinion, viewpoints and comments of Americans are equal and valid. No, they are not.

When I think of Americans, I think arrogant, ignorant, selfish, self-centred, ethnocentric, egotistical, superficial, neurotic, uneducated, insular, self-righteous nutbags. By the way, I have never heard of Crystal or Rose. It's just possible that there is more than one person who has read your comments that shares my poor opinion of you. Good day to you all.

"When I think of Americans, I think arrogant, ignorant, selfish, self-centred, ethnocentric, egotistical, superficial, neurotic, uneducated, insular, self-righteous nutbags."

How nice for you. I won't argue with the rest, but I can almost guarantee I have more education than you, though. And in my opinion, you're more ignorant than most, missing the entire point of a blog entry, even when the point is spelled out for you several times, then spending so much time on "Arseholes, arseholes without a brain to think." Poor you. Poor, self-righteous you.

PMSL! I'll take that bet on the education ma'am.

As for missing the point... No..No.. I got your point, but you apparently missed mine.

I wasn't aware that the blog was reserved for gratuitous smoke-blowing. I thought Freedom of Speech reigned supreme in these quarters. Therefore, I am permitted to vent. It doesn't matter who I insult or upset or offend because I have the democratic right to say any thing that pops into my mind regardless of how rude or unwarranted or cuntish it is because it is my right to do so. Or doesn't the first amendment apply to overseas visitors within your jurisdiction? It's different when you're on the receiving end though, isn't it?

Nobody's saying you can't say this stuff, but you keep getting angrier and more self-righteous and, um, what else is on your list? It's your right to make generalizations, and to say that we're somehow oppressing you by disagreeing with you is absurd and just bizarre given what your point supposedly is, !ma'am!.

Weren't you going away?

Go ahead, Imelda. Can't please everyone. I won't even bother to try.

Could you at least try to include deductive, abductive or even inductive reasoning in your arguments? Logical progression? Come on. Use that brain of yours more than the rambling off lists of insults.

I will succumb to a momentary lapse of nationalism. Here is a list of some notable Americans who are not against book learning:

http://www.jinfo.org/US_Nobel_Prizes.html

Now, I will try to find a site of all the Australian Nobel Prize winners. Wait, one doesn't exist. I will do something even better. I will list all of them on this post:

1. William Lawrence Bragg, Physics, 1915 (youngest recipient of a prize) There's a real achievement to be proud.
2. Sir Frank Macfarlane Burnet, Physiology or Medicine, 1960
3. John Warcup Cornforth, Chemistry, 1975
4. Peter Doherty, Physiology or Medicine, 1996
5. John Carew Eccles, Physiology or Medicine, 1963
6. Sir Howard Florey, Physiology or Medicine, 1945
7. Barry Marshall, Physiology or Medicine, 2005
8. J. Robin Warren, Physiology or Medicine, 2005
9. Patrick White, United Kingdom, Literature, 1973 (I'm feeling generous and will include him into the list)

So roughly, 160+ Americans versus 9. The closest nation is the UK with 111 winners. Of course the numbers are not fixed. I'm sure Australia could win another 157 winners to catch up with States in the next few decades. But that would only happen if US citizens stopped winning the award too. Just this last year's winners 6 out the 7 were Americans. How come? Is the Nobel Prize Foundation the bastard offshoot of the CIA? Hollywood insiders? Wall Street fat cats? Does Bush have some embarrassing photos/videos of the Swedish Royal Family? Could someone cue the porn music?

Both Australia and America have similar historical narratives. The US was founded by religious nuts and unscrupulous 'entrepreneurs'. Australia was a penal colony for the UK's dregs. Both nations have a history of subjugating their respective native populations. During the Cold War, both nations' intelligence service preformed various covert operations around the world. Australia, mainly in South East Asia. The US all over the world. I guess we are just too ambitious. So why the estimated 160+ versus the 9?

What is the real source of your anger, Imelda? Still sore over the whole Crocodile Dundee/Paul Hogan thing didn't have the longevity it deserves??? What was that annoying Australian footballer who did those battery commercials? Truly a Renaissance Man. All men for all seasons? Well, Steve Irwin did win the coveted Darwin Award. Of course, I'm just speculating to the source of your frustration towards a nation.

Would you like to read some pedantic U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A! cheer?

Now, the momentary lapse of nationalism has ended.

So, like my counter-post to Crystal's. There will always be evidence that will contradict your sloganeering. I will wait in full anticipation on your next list of negative qualities about us naughty Americans.

Imelda-

I thought Freedom of Speech reigned supreme in these quarters. Therefore, I am permitted to vent. It doesn't matter who I insult or upset or offend because I have the democratic right to say any thing that pops into my mind regardless of how rude or unwarranted or cuntish it is because it is my right to do so.

That's almost right - I don't think it is a 'democratic' right; if you post libellous material you could get sued; and if you were advocating a crime, you might get done for incitement. But pretty much any expression of opinion is allowed. Do you have a problem with that?

Imelda's been posting over here, too:

http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2007/01/meet_the_burqin_1.html

Oddly, she seems to have searched my site for information about me to try to "wound" me with straw men. I guess that's more important than admitting that there are Muslims who use their religion to condone beating, maiming, and murdering women and homosexuals, and murdering the rest of us in the name of the religion, and then working to do something about it.

Amy, Trolls and Readers,

No matter where she lives. Imelada is the classic online troll. The spiritual center of the apex of Moronia on the world wide web. To steal H.L. Mencken's expression.

Disagrees with your opinion? Trash the person behind the view. Offers the classic multicultural diatribes and feel good slogans. Even though her nation is conducting some interesting operations on the war on terror. Also, Australia has had their share of recent troubles with Muslims not assimilating to the values of the host nation. Remember the Sydney beach riots?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/australia/story/0,,1885037,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/australia/story/0,,1927541,00.html

Would these articles contradict her previous statements? Wouldn't those laws she holds dear stop Aussie hooligans from going crazy? Is there reason behind the Aussies going bat shit? Too many Fosters? Indifferent attitudes held from Muslim/Middle Eastern guests and residents? Is the UK's Guardian paper pro-US propaganda outlet?

I thought her nation was some kind of peaceful multicultural paradise? Didn't Australia send troops to Iraq too? Didn't her Prime Minister propose an amendment to the Marriage Act of 2004 to prevent the recognition of same sex marriages? How about anti-terror amendments to the Crimes Act of 1914? (Australia's Patriot Act) Also, John Howard was sending more Australian troops to Iraq in 2005. What are Howard's views on global warming? What parallel dimension is Imelda living in? Australia seems to be following the same 'monkey see, monkey do' policy decisions of the US government. A pseudo-U.S.A. (United States of Australia) I know the Land Down Under doesn’t have states, but provinces.

Like all nations, including the US, they are works in progress. Some are worse off (i.e. 22 nations of the Middle East) than others. Even if one removed the Israeli-Palestinian problems and our other disastrous Middle East foreign policies… all 22 nations’ combined GDP still only compares to Spain’s. How come? Islam? Corrupt oppressive governments? The cultural baggage of Islam? All the above. Imshallah.

The international hostility towards the US is typical and classic behavior towards something or someone being the best in their profession or standing. It doesn't help that we have a clueless and belligerent President. Well, in less than 700 days, Bush will be out of a job. Someone in a coma could do a better job on January 21, 2009.

Imelda trashes the US, even though you are a constant critic of US laws and foreign policies. Her posts have been constant in 2 other areas. First she attacks you personally, Amy. Second, your profession. What does that entail? Jealousy over your success? Also, you do not fit in her p.c. viewed reality. Well, so does the real world, including her own nation. Either she is a 15 year old child or another adult suffering from an extended adolescence living in her own echo chamber.

Of course expect her knee jerk responses to such accusations peppered with more insults.

I love how smart y'all are. I just want to wrap my arms around the monitor and hug Joe, Amy, Jo and Norman.

And especially Joe.

And Joe, it appears you scared her off with wisdom.

Unfortunately, I doubt it. She's in Australia. She's probably sleeping.

Thanks Brenda,

My method is to to overwhelm people like Imelda with facts. It isn't my job to convert her or to change her mind. My real motive is for the silent readers on Amy's site. They are the targeted audience. Let Imelda rant and rave. No clear thinking person should take her vague generalities and oversimplified thinking seriously.

She probably feels powerless in her own life. So there must be a target of blame. The USA. Amy's views and profession. What is the proof behind my observations? I will answer the question with another question. Why is Ismelda's posts so hostile and lacking any facts behind her views? So don't be surprised if she has the courage to return and add further hostile comments with more generalities and mindless slogans. Or some excuse that she will be 'walking away' and won the argument. Classic online troll behavior.

I would recommend her to read some of Dr. Albert Ellis' books on REBT. She needs to start universally accepting herself and others. Don't be surprised that other people have different views than your own. It won't end the emotional meltdowns, but diminish their frequency. ;)

How embarassing. Don't people realize that freaking out and personally attacking people (not their opinions) makes them look hysterical and detracts from their argument (if they have one)? I'm all for being passionate about your causes, but really, unless your cause is anti-pale-redheads, what does that have to do with anything?

Sure, we Americans are rude and boorish and say mean things so it's our fault for provoking suicidal terrorists. As if nutbags that blow themselves and innocent civilians to smithereens do it cause we just hurt their widdle-iddle feelings. Newsflash, lady: reasonable people do not blow shit up cause they're pissed. Reasonable people do not advocate or agree with, or even sit by and listen to talk of murdering an entire nationality because they don't like what some of them are doing. Amy's point that Imelda didn't address was that Americans do disagree with our governments actions, and we do protest (hello anti-war movement in the time of Vietnam?) and debate and talk about what's wrong with what we do. If you are part of a group and some people in that group are crazy violent fanatics, don't you have some sort of responsibilty to do something about it? We hear some people arguing that Islam is a religion of peace, and that the fanatics are wrong, but their voices are few.

To the attention of IMELDA who wrote: "I had to laugh at the comment about Islam infiltrating countries and slowly taking over with their Muslim practices being introduced covertly...."

http://ayaanhirsiali.web-log.nl/ayaanhirsiali/english/index.html

Thanks, Frania...good to have you pop by. I'm going to put her blog in my links.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is awesome.

Wafa Sultan is even better, though not as hot.
Wafa Sultan has the most mesmorizing amazing voice. If we had a thousand of her, I'd be more optimistic.

This video is stunning.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciOGS6r97oE
"brother, you can belive in stones, as long as you don't throw them at me."
Ha