"Last week, at Manchester Airport," That would be mistake number one. This is a red neck airport, expecting civilized behavior there is like getting mad at chimps for throwing poop. However if you've been flying for 16 hours you start to go squirly for lack of movement. So just out of morbid curiosity would you have been as pissed if the were doing it with a football?

Personally I don't think traveling with small children is ever a good idea. Obviously I'm the only one as everyone has some poop scented bundle in tow these days. I'm actually seeing a small increase in the number of well behaved ones though. The worst little friggers are about 10 year below me. They are now having kids and have too much of a sense of self entitlement to put up with crap.

I dunno about all that vlad. I've only ever gotten compliments on my girls' behaviour when we've been out, but that's because of diligent parenting and the fact that my girls actually do as their told. I've actually banned a couple of their little friends, when they were younger, from coming into my house, because of their atrocious slovenlyness. #1 had one of her friends over for dinner once, and the child actually ignored the napkin I set at her place and proceeded to wipe her mouth with the inside of the front of her shirt. I just looked at her and said "that is what napkins are for." She did have the grace to look embarrassed for about a minute. I just cannot abide children that have no manners. I will correct them in my home, and elsewhere if need be. There really is no excuse on the part of the parents for not teaching their children basic manners. I would think it's just common sense. Although, I'm finding it more and more true that common sense isn't so common anymore. YMMV

So just out of morbid curiosity would you have been as pissed if the were doing it with a football?

Yes. They were in the middle of the floor and the airport is not a football field. I don't want to get hit by a football, or a bag of trash, and I don't want to have to tell people to stop playing football so I can get by in the airport.

Also, I don't have a problem with kids in France because they are made to behave. They also don't seem to be brought to adult places like they are here. The adults are the jerks; the kids are just accessories.

Well, an old buddy and I thought for a long time a great business would be a restaurant where NOBODY under the age of, say, 15, could come in. With or without parents. Kids have disturbed more than one meal of mine. But the main problem is not the kids, it is the parents that do not discipline and even worse, get mad when you tell one of their rugrats to stop running by you or screaming. I was taken to very fine restaurants even at the age of two or three, but my behavior was strictly, and do mean strictly, enforced. (I am 51, folks were older parents, go figure) I learned from very early that you sat quietly, spoke quietly and were polite to everyone there even the busboy. Those lessons have served me well as an adult, though I more and more see myself as a square peg in the round hole of do whatever you feel like today.

"I dunno about all that vlad. I've only ever gotten compliments on my girls' behaviour when we've been out, but that's because of diligent parenting and the fact that my girls actually do as their told." Sure, not saying that all well behaved children are a result of self centered parents but I know quite a few well behaved children of self centered parents.

"The adults are the jerks; the kids are just accessories." Some quote about apples and trees come to mind. Though as stated above I have seen just the opposite a few times. Again I'm all for playing football in an empty part of the airport but doing so in a crowded area where you are in people's way is just rude.

I'm still surprised that parents drag kids to high end restaurants. You go to those for the experience as much as the food. If you want good food and not the dining experince why not get take out?

Got a number for reservations? We'll be right over.

And right on, it's the parents, not the kids, who are the problem. They create the problem with their indulgent "parenting."

As kids, we, too, were taken to nice restaurants, but the idea that we would ever make noise, say anything but an absolutely mandatory "thank you" to a waiter or waitress, or do anything to disturb other patrons...it was simply not an option in my little mind or those of my sisters.

the SO and I were out to dinner a couple of months ago. sitting in the booth directly behind me was a family of four, with the youngest being a three-ish yr old boy. lucky for me, he kept peeking over the booth and hitting me. the parents did nothing! after the third time, I turned around and politely asked that they keep their child on their side of the barrier. the 'mother's' response? 'shes obviously not a mother'! wtf?! I couldn't hold my tongue and told her that we had two *well behaved* boys at home and I would be appalled if they acted like her child.

the family requested take out boxes and left shortly there after. the dad, who was sitting next to the little boy, had to hold his son in a bear hug to keep him still.

I guess we are lucky in that regard. the 10 yr old and 6 yr old know how to behave. we actually receive compliments on their behavior and manners whenever we are out.

Yay for you for saying something back.

And regarding your own kids, you're not "lucky," but doing what used to be the ordinary parenting thing.

Anybody have any idea on why this has gone so out of style?

Again, it is the fault of the parents, not the kids. Some children are, as it were, "unsafe at any speed" and should not be taken out, even to Chucky Cheeze.

Other kids have the grace of Fred Astaire. I had a 6-year-old who would personally complement the waitress on her good service. At 10 she was calculating the tip. Certainly there was never any whining or kicking the table leg at the restaurant; that behavior she saved for home. I think she's a changeling from Winsor Palace, which would explain why the royal family's current generation is so ill-mannered.

The trick is "Parental Discretion Advised"--know what you can realistically expect from your particular child, and DON'T take him anywhere unless you are absolutely prepared to remove him should he behave inappropriately.

This will surely be a contested opinion, but mine is that manners are overrated. My theory is that the kids who are taught to hold the spoon gently between their thumb and forefinger inherit, as adults, hundreds of minute and burdensome pet peeves. "The thing I HATE the MOST in life is when people chew gum in public!" - that kind of thing.

It's like handing down a pair of special x-ray goggles to your kids. For the rest of their lives they'll see everybody naked, even the sweaty old guys. It's gotta be a distraction from the more enjoyable subtleties in life.

Sure, teach your kids to use napkins and not to throw trash at frequent flyers, but maybe draw the line somewhere between perfect posture and complete silence.

I think the lack of parenting lately is due to two factors: parents are afraid to hurt their kids' feelings by actually disciplining them; and many parents (esp. moms) feel so guilty for pawning their kids off on daycare facilities that they overindulge to make up for it.

a woman I know has an 8 yr old daughter. granted, the woman is a single mom, and she has worked hard to put herself through school to better her lot in life. she feels badly for leaving her daughter with the grandmother afternoons, though, so she won't discipline the girl! (i have so little time with her, I don't want to spend it harping on her) its getting out of control, and she isn't doing the girl any favors.

I want to yell at these people! kids don't need more friends. kids need parents. do your job or get sterilized!

Amy asks Anybody have any idea on why this has gone so out of style?

Three letters. D. C. F.

I'm sure there are many reasons why this has fallen out of style, but I think a lot of it has to do with laziness. Being a good parent is hard, often thankless work, and not only do so many parents not want to do it, but they think the rest of the world should just deal with their failure. Plus, I'm mystified by how many parents seem intimidated by their own children. When the brat misbehaves, they just kind of stutter helplessly. I wonder whether this has much to do with the increased scrutiny parents live with as they raise their children.

I also suspect that many parents have entirely too much ego invested in their kids. When a stranger yells at junior for blocking the sidewalk, they get all butthurt about it as if they were the ones to get yelled at.

When a stranger yells at junior for blocking the sidewalk, they get all butthurt about it as if they were the ones to get yelled at.

As well they should, because they are NOT being parents!

My kids are 15 and 21 and I am not their friend; never have been.
Oh sure, they make some hair-brained moves at times, but their manners are impeccable.

When my darling brat threatened to call Children Services on me, I kindly offered to give him the number. I told him "Go right ahead! They are going to take YOU out of the house, not ME. I get to stay here with all my stuff. YOU won't have a computer, or TV, or game station...no cell phone (a look of horror came over his face) no access to a fridge full of food, no 30 minute showers, etc. In fact what you do get to take with you will probably be stolen, like that $50 hoodie you're wearing, by one of the other 4-6 boys that you will be sharing a room with. Make a fuss about it and they'll have you drugged up so fast your head will spin. And after you call DCSS, call your friends and say goodbye because you'll have to change schools overnight - your new foster home will likely not be within 20 miles of your current school.
So go ahead son, make the call and tell them how bad you have it by having to clean your room, pick up the dog poop, and empty the dishwasher. G'head."

(I was a CASA for a few years)

This situation occurs because the parents are lazy jerks. I know because I am one (a parent, not a lazy jerk). I am not a hellicoptor parent, in fact far from it. But being a single father to a seven year old is hard work (his mother WAS manufacturing meth, but the state of Texas is providing her with a place to live). And I go out of my way to make sure not to interfere with adults who don't want kids around them. I am one of those types of adults (who doesn't like kids), but I ended up with a child anyway and won't skirt my responsibility. And while I was running around the US recently showing my son places that I had lived and worked, we didn't even bother Amy when we passed by my old apt at 51 Rose Ave #10 in Venice Beach.

I often have to be around kids and their parents since I do have one of my own. Many of these parents and kids are so spoiled and entitled that it makes me want to puke. And then there are the others that are so overprotective and paranoid that I have nightmares about how those kids will grow up as well.

My son is a kid and acts like one. But when his path crosses the adult world (airports, malls, restaraunts) he behaves like an adult. And I have no problem telling people to curb their kids at anytime or in anyplace. If a guy like me can make a child behave, anyone else can too if they will just quit being lazy breeders.

>>>>...laziness...they think the rest of the world should just deal with their failure...parents seem intimidated by their own children...increased scrutiny parents live with as they raise their children...too much ego invested in their kids.

To this I would add hatred of the culture around you, and kids become your informal militia that goes out and punishes the enemy.

Free range brats in restaurants is one of my huge pet peeves. I didn't pay good money to watch your kid run recklessly all over the restaurant, scream, and generally cause a disturbance. And you just know some poor waitperson is going to trip over the kid with hot food and hurt it, and then of course it's handlers will be all up in arms and threatening to sue. And the next person who tells me they have to bring their kids out in public to "socialize" them is going to get his or her lights punched out. You socialize your kids AT HOME, and if you take them out and they can't behave, you take them OUT of the restaurant.

Honestly, if this is too difficult a concept for you, maybe you should continue to use that birth control. Grrr.

When my darling brat threatened to call Children Services on me, I kindly offered to give him the number. I told him "Go right ahead! They are going to take YOU out of the house, not ME. I get to stay here with all my stuff. YOU won't have a computer, or TV, or game station...no cell phone (a look of horror came over his face)

Absolutely hilarious.

Amy, when I was a young child, establishments like that had nurseries/playrooms where young ones could be deposited for the duration. There was supervision and basic services for the infants (diaper changing, etc.) The room was always far enough away so that a bit of noise wouldn't bother the adults. Parents in that day didn't feel compelled to spend every waking minute with their children. They were happy to take their young ones to the nursery and sit and have an enjoyable hour to themselves. And you know what? The kids didn't mind being away from their parents for an hour either.

Of course, nowdays establishments can't do that sort of thing. Think of the liability!

A friend has a brilliant way to make parents' get their kids under control. When she sees out of control brats, she looks sympathetically at their parent and says "it must be so hard having a special-needs child".

Response is either an angry "he's not special needs!" or a surprised "he's not special needs!" Either one gets an "Oh..." back, and most parents are so embarrassed that they pack up Junior and leave.

"I'm still surprised that parents drag kids to high end restaurants."

The first review that came up on google listed the restaurant as: Casual Dining, Fast-Casual Dining.

You guys can have the truly high end restaurants but you cannot have every run of the mill chinese food joint too. Similarly, you can have all the true bars out there but you don't also get the brew-pubs and sports bars in the mall as well. Having a kid doesn't change my need for a microbrew and potato skins.

That said, horsing around is for outside. I think what's driving this is a general 'casual friday' effect. You watch movies set in the 50's and every man wears a tie, just to go about their daily business. Women will be wearing a dress and flats. They wore their Sunday best daily, and expected children to be on their best behavior.

Now it's Juicy Couture, sweats when you aren't working out? We actually have an unofficial no tie policy at my office. I get comments like, "nice slacks," when I am only wearing GAP chinos.

If we're going to call it casual dining and we're not going to put on our Sunday best, our children will not recognize that they need to be on their best behaviour.

Air travel used to be really special, exciting! Now it's a mundane chore, and it's so accessible and over-used that you get trash throwing trash who by rights should be fighting in the back seat of a wood paneled station wagon when they go on vacation. Did that sound snobby? Good. If you aren't going to have pride in your behavior, neither will your children.

Free range brats? Where the heck are you people eating? McDonalds playland? We eat out all the time and I can't remember my meal ever being disturbed by "screaming" or "running" kids enough to remember and blog about it. Jeez. And I am not a "kid person" either.
I was also a waitress for years at restaurants that ranged from order-at-the-counter to fine dining and my only complaint was parents who left little or no tip after the toddlers left a huge mess.

I have an 8 year old and we have being taking him to restaurants with us since he was an infant, so he knows how to act when we go out. But there was a certain age range when we kept him at home until he learned how to sit still and behave.

I often see parents taking children outside the restaurant at the first sign of trouble. It's just common sense. I must assert that clueless parents are the exception rather than the rule. That being said, a restaurant has the right to ban kids. Just go somewhere else.

"Free range brats? Where the heck are you people eating? McDonalds playland?" $150 per person is not McDonalds. I'm not talking about fast-food or even casual dinning, I expect kids to be there. Preferable not running around and screaming but there none the less.

When I have to listen to 3 screaming brats, the neutered hubby and the wife that think she has the right to be there I will get pissed. especially if I just dropped 300 on dinner and drinks.

"Having a kid doesn't change my need for a microbrew and potato skins." Your need for beer and skins does not change the fact that I shouldn't have to dodge screaming kids.

I love taking a woman out to dinner in a nice place, little black dress, drinks, nice atmosphere. It's great, then some screaming little bastard shits all over your evening. That really just pisses me off. I think the reason so many parents don't discipline their kids in restaurants is because nobody would have the nerve to actually smack a child in public lest some moron call the police.

This gave me an idea one time for what would probably make a great skit for SNL. It's called: "The Spanking Curtain" Imagine if you will a very nice restaurant with people enjoying their dinners, all of a sudden, two little larvae decide to prove they truly are satan's children and the parents are at wits end. They simply call the waiter over and say, could we get the curtain please?" Then a couple of waiters bring over to the table on of those temporary partition type curtains like you see in the hospitals and block the table off from the rest of the restaurant. Then you hear a lot of smacking, punching, screaming, crying, see blood spurting out over the top of the curtain and then silence. Then the waiters come over and take the curtain away to reveal two well behaved, black-eyed, bloody lipped little angels. If only this could become reality.

My mother used to take all five of us boys out to dinner and if we disrupted that place at all, she'd kill us and we knew it. She often got complimented on how polite her boys were. It was normal behaviour for us. There was a time and a place for raising hell and it was when we were home and mom was on the phone.

P.S. "expecting civilized behavior there is like getting mad at chimps for throwing poop." Loved this one Vlad.

When someone comments on how well behaved my child is the reply is usually "Thats because I beat him regulaly." Which of course is a joke and thankfully has at least to my knowledge always been taken that way. But in truth alot of the credit goes to the kid himself. He was smart enough at a young age to realise good manners were rewarded and bad manners were punnished. I wasn't above taking him out of church at three years old to administer discipline (light spanking) and he had a good enough memory that the threat of such again usually enough to snap him right back in line till the memory of that discipline faded. The first time I took him out to eat whith my new inlaws when he was five his new aunt about lost her mind when he asked to be excused from the table. She who has three kids of her own. I just explained he knew any other behaviour was unacceptable. And of course that he is greedy and figured out "please and thank you" got him alot more than "gimme". All seems pretty simple doesn't it?

Children should be expected to behave themselves everywhere, not just at high-end places. People get a little more slack in places like McDonald's (loud voices, eating with hands, etc.), but I shouldn't have to dodge flying ketchup bombs and listen to high-pitched wailing for 30 minutes straight just because I only paid $5.99 for my meal. Besides being annoying to me, it's not teaching children anything about how to behave in public.

I know parents want to go to classy places, too, but if their howler monkeys can't behave, then they're just going to have to put nice restaurants in the list of "parental sacrifices" they keep going on about.

Some people just don't seem to have any idea that kids are not appropriate in all places. I went to a wedding dinner for a work buddy of mine. He was having it at Georges by the Cove in La Jolla. It is a very high end place where you go for a special evening. (I'd be there every week if I was rich) Anyhow, he invited about 150 people and dinner was $300 a plate! That's about forty five thousand bucks his family put out for a dinner. One couple brought both their kids who were about four and seven years old to this dinner! What in hell were they thinking?

The whiny-assed comment I hear from people about why they take their brats to high-end restaurants is, "How else is my child supposed to learn to behave in public if we can never take them out in public?" I just want to smack these people. Teach them at HOME, you dumbasses! When your kid can sit at the dinner table at home without squirming around, making a mess, and can use silverware, then MAYBE they can handle a restaurant.

I hate out of control kids in general, but restaurants especially. After a long day the last thing I want is a kid crying next to me on the commuter rail. However, I respect the fact that this parents also just worked a long hard day and now has to feed this screaming monstrosity (granted, I question why this person did this to him/herself. People want kids, fine I get it.).

But when I'm at a restaurant it's because I want to eat yummy food and enjoy myself with others (or alone). It's a luxury for me, though one I partake in often. No matter - I don't want my conversation interrupted by 1) piercing screams 2) flying food 3) whacks from the booth behind me. I also don't like it when drunk people start yelling, either.

It's not that I dislike kids. I dislike obnoxious people who don't realize they're living amongst other humans who are also trying to enjoy themselves and that their enjoyment excludes yelling people.

"Last week, at Manchester Airport, some lady was playing football with her two boy brats with a bag of trash from McDonald's in the center of the walkway lining the gates."

Clearly the problem is that these poor children do not have enough toys. We must mandate the use of tax dollars to provide toys in any venue where children might be bored enough as to play with trash. Think of the children!!

[/sarcasm]

I think Amy has touched just a corner of the question. Ordinary parenting has gone out of style because authority in general has gone out of style.

Which is so culturally suicidal that I have a hard time fighting off the paranoid thought that this didn't happen by accident, it had a whole lot of very intelligent help. Hopefully, it's just me.

--
phunctor

"I have a hard time fighting off the paranoid thought that this didn't happen by accident, it had a whole lot of very intelligent help." Don't attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by stupidity or delusion.

Kids need time to act out (not act up) and burn off some energy. As a parent your duty is to instruct them how and when. Also that when they do it in inappropriate ways and/or inappropriate times there are consequences.

"One couple brought both their kids who were about four and seven years old to this dinner! What in hell were they thinking?" Did they ask first or just show up with them in tow? It's one thing to ask and get a yes or no it's completely different if they just showed up with them.

Vlad, no children were invited to this event although there was not a note on the invitation that said, "Don't bring children". It was a wedding dinner and started at eight pm. If I had a four year old, it would never even think of taking a small child to a dinner like that. Would you pay 300 bucks for dinner for a four year old? And to answer your question, no, they did not ask the couple, I know that for sure because we talked about it.

Cousin Dave -

Actually, our local mid-range department store chain (Fred Meyers) offers complimentary child care while you shop.

Monica -

I am with you on that. I don't want to see these kids in McDonald's either.

For quite a while, one of our regular excursions, was twice a month trips to McDonald's. Our son was required to earn his trips, by taking the initiative to do his chores without being asked. It took a little bit, but he got the hang of it.

I can't tell you how upsetting it is for me, as a parent, to have my son come up to me and sadly explain that we should just go, because some child or children are behaving badly and ruining everyone else's fun (and not respecting the posted rules). This is a child who really loves to play at the playland and actually likes the food there. He shouldn't have to leave and he shouldn't have to explain that we should find a different special treat as a reward, because he usually can't enjoy the time he spends at McDonald's.

I just don't understand how parents can blithely ignore what their little fucking asshole kids are doing. On the occasions when my kid decides to be the one acting the asshole, we get the hell out of wherever we are and he gets to spend some quality time thinking about why he isn't doing anything fun. And if, gods forbid, he is the asshole ruining other people's fun, he finds himself restricted from playing with other kids for forty-eight hours. Guess what? He is rarely that asshole.

Vlad, no children were invited to this event although there was not a note on the invitation that said, "Don't bring children".

Doesn't make any difference; I've been to weddings where it was specifically stated on the invitation "please, no children" and people showed up with them anyway, which is exceedingly rude, especially if you sent back the RSVP card saying only 2 people would attend. Horribly bad manners.

That said, at one wedding I had attended (was a bridesmaid in fact) the bride was outraged, and the couple who brought their 3 unruly children berated her for being "thoughtless" and reduced her to tears. It was awful to see. They were friends of the groom, and he was less than pleased but the father said they'd feed the kids from their plates, so the groom relented and let them stay. Needless to say, a not so good time was had by all.
But you would think, by all accounts, if the wedding dinner began at 8 p.m., that the implication would be no children and normal parents would have put the 4 and 7 year old in bed, and a babysitter engaged, before the couple left the house. Some people need to hit with a clue-by-4 many times before they get the message, I guess.

From someone else's comments:

"Personally I don't think traveling with small children is ever a good idea."

Neither do I, and I'm a parent. Still - what are we supposed to do with them? Put them in a cryogenic storage unit on the rare occasions when we do go on a trip? Some of us don't have babysitters or relatives to watch our children. Some of us have drastically curtailed our trips and entertainment so as to avoid disturbing others as it is.

My family and I don't go to places where adults will reasonably be expecting a peaceful, child-free environment. I would be delighted if airlines and the like offered child-only sections, where the whining and yowling which comes with having an exhausted toddler wouldn't inconvenience others.

But isn't it wonderful that everyone who commented on this forum has such firm, well-informed opinions on raising well-behaved children? I hope those who haven't already had children will go have five or six, just so they can put their theories to the test.

would be delighted if airlines and the like offered child-only sections, where the whining and yowling which comes with having an exhausted toddler wouldn't inconvenience others.

An idea whose time has come!

"Some of us have drastically curtailed our trips and entertainment so as to avoid disturbing others as it is."

This is one thing parents need to accept in exchange for the joys of parenting - like the sticky kisses, refrigerator art, etc.

"I hope those who haven't already had children will go have five or six, just so they can put their theories to the test."

No thanks. I figured out what causes children and had it FIXED.

"I hope those who haven't already had children will go have five or six" If you can't keep one in line why the hell would you have six. Trying to keep one child controlled is one thing but with 5 or 6 of them you can't. Obviously it can be done and has been done so the comment on try it then get back to me is invalid.

"I've been to weddings where it was specifically stated on the invitation "please, no children" and people showed up with them anyway," We had children at our wedding but first they were the ring bearers and flower girl. I was asked right from the start if they could bring them to the reception. I was fine with it because they are well behaved. The reception stared at 6 or 8 something like that. Once they started getting tired the parents took them home. A good time was had by all.

If it says point blank "No Children" and the parents bring children then of course the children will be unruly and spoiled. The parents are self centered ass holes and are training the kids to be the same.

Vlad -

Personally I don't think traveling with small children is ever a good idea.

And how exactly am I expected to go visit grandma and grandpa, twenty-five hundred miles away? Now that we have the infant in tow, it will be a couple years before we fly again and that only after several practice runs in long car rides. But we most certainly will be taking our small child on airplanes, when he isn't an infant any more.

We did it many times with the six year old. Indeed, when we flew back to MI for my old man's seventieth birthday (the six year old was almost four) we had a red eye flight. I had to get up at three a.m. to get the last minute prep done and he woke up when I got up. Then he had a four hour flight that lifted off at five a.m., to meet great grandpa in Pheonix for the last leg (America West is cheap, but neither convenient, direct or sensible about the directions they send people). We had a two hour layover, which we spent with great grandpa, then we lifted off for our six hour flight to Detroit. Finally we landed and then got in the car to head for Kalamazoo, about a two and a half hour drive. We did make a stop at a McDonald's that had a playland, but that was only about twenty minutes of playtime, for the almost four year old who had been up since three in teh morning.

The only issue that anyone had with us, was an asshole who didn't like that I was reading to my son. At one point he threatened to start reading his Penthouse Letter's out loud, see how I might like that. The gentleman sitting behind him (we were in front) threatened to beat him to a bloody pulp if he did and then went on to compliment my son and I on how very well behaved my small child was being. He was far from the only one who complimented my son's behavior that day.

I doubt that my infant son will be much trouble either. He really gets into our trips to Seattle, now that he can actually keep his eyes open for more than five minutes at a time. He loves to watch the landscape go whipping past and only gets fussy when he normally does - when he's hungry or his ass explodes with too much gas at once. He will also fuss if he gets bored, but with so much to see out the window of a car, that's not an issue. Still, we are opting to wait on the flying thing until he is a little older.

I should note that I am with S. Puppet - we don't have relatives closer than Seattle and as my nephew there tends to be a jerk to my son, I wouldn't want to leave him there for a vacation. Of course the only vacations that we can afford, are the one's where we visit friends and family back in MI. We aren't going to leave the kids behind when we do that. Nor are we going to spend an extra week of vacation time driving across country. So we just make sure our kids are good, non-disruptive travelers instead.

>>>"I hope those who haven't already had children will go have five or six"

I love children, taste like chicken, but I'm not that hungry.

When I was married, my little five year old brother came up to after the wedding when everyone was shaking hands and kissing the bride, and asked in a too loud voice, "Hey Ken, are we all invited to the conception?"

>>>what are we supposed to do with them? Put them in a cryogenic storage?

Not a bad idea, this is what makes McDonalds french fries so good!

What exactly is it that people are asking for? I have two children (7 and 5) and regularly take them to regular, mid-range restaurants (there's an awful lot of room between Chuck E. Cheese and Le Cirque). They're well behaved children but still children; it's unreasonable to expect them to act like little adults. Children who run around, scream, cry, throw food etc. deserve all the complaints. When it gets to more normal "childlike" behavior - coloring on the back of the placemat while waiting for the food, talking maybe a bit too loudly sometimes, leaving more crumbs than an adult would - anyone who would complain about *that* should probably stay home if the presence of imperfect people in society upsets them that much.

I think the people whose children are misbehaving little brats are the same people who say "Everyone ELSE's children are misbehaving little brats, but not MINE! Because MY children have been taught to BEHAVE, and THEY are perfect little ANGELS, thanks to my WONDERFUL parenting skills!"

Face it, all children are misbehaving little brats because that's what children are. I was a misbehaving little brat, but my mom still trots out the line that my brother and I were different than everyone else's kids. No we weren't. They are all pretty much the same.

I went out for an after-work dinner with some co-workers a couple of years back, and one co-worker brought her two kids along, aged 3 and 6. The 3-year-old whined incessantly and the 6-year-old dumped an entire pint of beer on my lap (because he was crawling on top of the table), and then the little shit had the nerve to deny doing it. When I was speaking privately with one of the other women later (not the mother of the kids) I said I hated X's kids after that night. She said I simply must not like kids, because they are all that way at a certain age. She was right.

No, she wasn't.

I don't think anyone minds well behaved kids at all. Even in a very nice restaurant, if they are well behaved, they don't bother me whatsover. Sometimses though, parents just don't control their kids.

I was in a restaurant once, something like a Chile's. I sat in a booth and my wife sat across from me. in the booth across from us, there were two women and three kids. Two of the children were old enough to sit in the booth, but one was a toddler and they put her in a high chair in the aisle. The kids were generally ok for a while and it was a family restaurant, then the toddler started standing up in the high chair. The women are completely oblivious as the toddler, who obviously was just barely walking, stood up and wavered back and forth coming close to falling backwards out of the high chair. I was just about to say something when my wife, (always the first one to bark at a complete stranger), snapped to the two women, "If you don't sit that child down now, I'm calling the police on your asses!" They looked at her like they had no idea what she was talking about. But they did make the kid sit down.

" When it gets to more normal "childlike" behavior" ..

I don't think a rational person would complain about these things, because they don't actually disturb anyone. If a child is talking so loudly that I can't focus on the conversation I'm having at my own table, that's a problem, but those other things you mention are harmless.

Even seeing a parent making an attempt at actually parenting goes a long way for me.

I was in Woodstock a couple of years ago to see the Dalai Lama. I was sitting in a field full of people waiting for the speech to start when a kid, about 7, nailed me in the back with a soccer ball. It hurt, but I decided to let it go in the spirit of the event. A few minutes later, he came back with an older woman that I assume was his mother. She nudged him, he apologized, and then she took him to a less crowded area of the field.

I was prepared to forgive that kid anything, because it was so refreshing to see a parent address her child's behavior.

Pirate Jo -

I think the people whose children are misbehaving little brats are the same people who say "Everyone ELSE's children are misbehaving little brats, but not MINE! Because MY children have been taught to BEHAVE, and THEY are perfect little ANGELS, thanks to my WONDERFUL parenting skills!"

I think your really missing something in all of this. First, I would personally, never claim that my kids an angel - he assuredly is not. Indeed he can be a colossal pain in the ass at times. However, when we are out and about he is generally extremely well behaved, because he is aware that the consequences if he is not make it worth not misbehaving.

At the same time, he has ADHD that is at least as severe as my own. Which means that a lot of the time he has the impulse control of a shark in bloody water. Now much of the time, it isn't bad enough that it breaks through his distaste for losing his privileges or worse. But occasionally it does and when it does we leave wherever we happen to be and he gets a reminder of why it's important to him, to keep it under control.

Face it, all children are misbehaving little brats because that's what children are.

No, they aren't. We have Hispanic neighbors who have four kids, ranging from eighteen months, to six and the very important half. Momma and grandma are very keen on making sure that those kids Behave. And they do.

Even my kid, who occasionally has his terrible moments isn't a misbehaving little brat. Yes, he misbehaves, at least once a day he ends up in time-out and loses privileges a couple times a week. We are constantly trying to work out new strategies for dealing with this or that new issue that comes up. But we are also consistent. Even when we are adding new rules and/or consequences, we take the time to make sure he understands the rules, the consequences and why the rule has been implemented.

Simply misbehaving is not being a brat. Sassy, illmannered children are brats. Kids who misbehave because they know they can get away with it are brats. Kids who sneak about, misbehaving and making other kids miserable, then go to mom or dad and pretend they're an angel are brats. Kids who act like a four year old, when they're eleven are brats.

Kids who understand the rules, understand the consequences and behave most of the time, are not brats because they occasionally fuck up. They're kids.

She said I simply must not like kids, because they are all that way at a certain age. She was right.

I can assure you, that my kid has never, not one fucking time, climbed on the table in a restaurant. He hasn't thrown food around since he was a baby (excepting when we had a planned food fight, with a bunch of other kids - using day old pastries covered in whipped cream). If he has gotten tired enough to whine incessantly we don't take him out to a restaurant, we take him home for some quiet time. And again, if we are in a restaurant or similar establishments and he actually disrupts the peace of those around us, we leave and he gets a reminder of why he shouldn't do that.

I am not going to claim to be a perfect parent. I assuredly am not. Indeed I often feel like a total failure, because of many of the problems we are trying to deal with. But I am a parent, unlike a lot of people who spawn. I actually discipline my child, play with my child, read to my child, listen to my child and help educate my child. I make it clear every day, not just by my words, that my boys are the most important thing I have in my life and ever will have. And it shows, even when my child is misbehaving.

I don't think a rational person would complain about these things, because they don't actually disturb anyone. If a child is talking so loudly that I can't focus on the conversation I'm having at my own table, that's a problem, but those other things you mention are harmless.

Blocking a sidewalk doesn't seem like that big a deal to me either, at least not as bad as yelling at a stranger for blocking said sidewalk, and yet two people earlier in the thread seemed to think it was perfectly acceptable to yell.

Full disclosure - my son is a bit of a space cadet, and doesn't always pay attention to walking on the right side of the sidewalk. I nudge him over whenever I see it, but if someone yelled at him because they couldn't handle being 3 seconds later to their destination, I wouldn't take it as an indictment of my parenting skills. I'd assume that the other person was a nut or an asshole.

Alkon: "I told them to stop as I went by, as I didn't want to end up wearing McDonald's."

Poster: "A friend has a brilliant way to make parents' get their kids under control. When she sees out of control brats, she looks sympathetically at their parent and says 'it must be so hard having a special-needs child'."

(1) LOL You #$%^ cowards acting all bad for telling it straight to parents.

In case you haven't noticed, most adults are shambling bags of annoying BS too. In fact, adults will piss you off way more and way more often. Hands down.

But do *you* tough-talking kid-haters pop off to, say, that scowling 20 year old who annoys you? I bet not. He might shove your face through your hairpiece. That chick with the tramp stamp tattoo? She may go all ghetto on you and tear out your weave.

You pretend that harshing on some harried parent's kid is making the world hetter. But you know they are not going to slap the proud off your mouth in front of their kid, so it is safe.

If you really want to help society out, start jumping on the sh-t of that loud-mouthed kid in combat boots and leather coat. You know the one I am talking about. You currently avert your eyes and walk quicker when he is around. And there are plenty of them around if you really want to be socially aggressive towards people annoying others in public. And don't annoying young adults deserve it way more than kids/toddlers?

Dumping on tiny kids and their parents seems pretty weak beer if your aim is to make the public square more livable via snide comments.

But social betterment really isn't your aim, is it? You just get off on being a jerk to people who won't take it to the next level. Like I said, parents are usually able to understand that going after you in front of their kid for your sneering b-llshit is bad parenting.

(2) Childless people complaining about other people's kids has an unmarried-marriage-counselor feel to it, except with the @sshole factor turned up a bit. Why don't you just have another cup of shut the f-ck up and silently thank them for endless late nights and overtime? AFter all, who do you think is going to pay for your saggy-fleshed retirement years? Those kids. And the parents you complain about *pay* to raise those kids, you lazy, free-riders. (Said with a slight smile, of course)

(3) All that said, I have taken it upon myself to bark loudly at other people's children who act atrociously. (e.g., a 9 year old was sadistically teasing/hurting a 5 year old by boucing a ball of his head. Nearby adults too meek to stop ongoing physcial abuse. Unbelieveable...) Naturally the father thought he was going to let me have it for yelling at his kid. It ended with me (calmly but firmly) telling him what I saw and saying if any kid of mine acted like that, I would be ashamed to be his parent, since it would reflect very poorly on me.

Note one key difference, folks. I got upset at how a child was treating someone else, not because a kid simply being a kid (i.e., immature) somehow disturbed my imaginary guaranteed zone of placid adulthood.

But do *you* tough-talking kid-haters pop off to, say, that scowling 20 year old who annoys you? I bet not. He might shove your face through your hairpiece. That chick with the tramp stamp tattoo? She may go all ghetto on you and tear out your weave.

All the time. And no, if somebody looks like an armed gang member, I'm not going to say boo. But, just today, for example, there were a bunch of jerks who came into a cafe where I go regularly (where there's not only a no cell phones rule but a no photography rule) and proceeded to start photographing around the cafe. Well, I don't want to be in the photograph, and if I'm on the street, I can't stop you from taking my picture, but in this place, it was rude and wrong. I suspected wasn't the only one who was bothered (we all pretty much know each other in this place), but I led, and chewed the guys out.

And then, not surprisingly, the guys (totally unaccountable for their rudeness) said, "Well, you're the only one who's bothered." And I said, "I can guarantee you, I'm not, I'm just the one who's speaking out." And then a guy and a girl near me both said something -- that they were bothered by it, too, and found it rude, and disruptive, and didn't want to be in the pictures.

Just one example. If you'd like numerous others, just scroll through my blog. Before you toss out a lot of wild assumptions about who's gutless around here.

PS Last weekend, two guys were playing booming megabass at 12:30 am across the street from where I live. I walked over and gave them a talking to, and after they apologized again and again, they promised that they'd learned their lesson and would never do it again (inconsiderately boom their bass across from houses).

See the column linked into the French child-rearing piece a couple of items below this one? I'm kind of qualified, I think, to opine on the topic -- because I think about it a lot, research it a great deal -- including both journal articles and presentations by people like John Gottman and Alison Shapiro at conferences -- and observe the differences between the indulgent style of parenting in the USA vis a vis France, for example.

I also have one of the best behaved dogs you'll ever encounter, and, yes, while I understand that a dog is not a child (figured that was the next silly argument coming from you) there's something in common with disciplining a dog so it behaves and disciplining a child. It's about boundaries. In short, you don't have to have children to know what it takes to raise a polite child, or to know how to treat children when you encounter them to get them to behave.

And your brilliant insights? We're waiting. It seems all you do is criticize people here for criticizing shitty parents. Could it be because you're one of them?

A few odds and ends in response to your silliness above:

Kids can be kids in kid places. If they are not trained to behave appropriately in adult places, they should not be brought there.

And when I talk to a kid, I talk to the kid one on one and the kid listens and does what I say.

Finally, why the fuck should I thank people who have kids for "endless nights and overtime"? It isn't the people with kids who stay late at the office when the people with kids leave at 4pm to go to soccer or whatever (as happened constantly when I worked for a big corporation).

Who's going to pay for me? I am. And I've been paying, and was in my 20s, for countless elderly rich people. The system will be, according to David M. Walker, comptroller of the USA, bankrupt in a few years.

If you have children, you should bear all costs, including keeping them home until they behave and seeing that they behave when in public.

I was raised to care about whether I was bothering or endangering other people. Apparently, your parents raised you differently. Perhaps you could go back and apologize to all the people you loudly bratted on when you were a child?

"But do *you* tough-talking kid-haters pop off to, say, that scowling 20 year old who annoys you? I bet not." Pop off at the adult first personally, if the kids misbehaving it's either the parents fault or he's tired. Tired I can excuse as I see adults behave far worse when they are tired. And still look to start wearing dragon scale under my shirt ($8000 last I checked) as I hate hypocrites and if I'm not willing to yell at some hard ass I really shouldn't yell at some kid.

Plus I'm curious as to what we are all defining as yelling. This had been an argument with my wife who thought I was yelling, just moved into a large house with really good acoustics wasn't used to it. Then one of the nephews ran into to the street. Now she know what yelling is and isn't when I do it.

To me shit head behavior is far worse when an adult does it.

"But do *you* tough-talking kid-haters pop off to, say, that scowling 20 year old who annoys you? I bet not. He might shove your face through your hairpiece." Or I get to kick the crap out of a long pig and get away with it. Pounding the shit out of people who are assholes are fun, but since I don't know how well armed they are I'm waiting for my dragon scale.

BTW there are few trick I have learned for travel. Keep and episode of wiggles, Barney, and Yugio on your laptop while traveling, this will change with time so keep up with the current TV addictions. I tried this and the kid was SILENT the mother was greatful and I got to read my book in peace. A cardiologist I have worked with showed me a great trick for small babies. Keep a track or two of the human heart beat at rest on your Ipod. Hand the kid your headphones and poof dead to the world. He told me that when he tried this trick the mother thought the kid died cause he stopped screaming and the head flopped almost immediately. One final point, every time I saw a baby screaming his/her head off and inconsolable they had a runny nose. This usually means that they are stuffed up. I had a similar experince while working as a diver when my decongestant wore off. The child is screaming because it feels like they have an ice pick being driven in to the side of their skull, no shit the kids gone cry. I've seen grown men almost cry from the pain. Also if it's bad enough they can have permanent hearing damage, delay the flight cause it's not worth it.

"Who's going to pay for me? I am. And I've been paying, and was in my 20s, for countless elderly rich people."

Damn straight, Amy - loved that whole post. Somehow I just didn't realize there was an entire legion of parents raising their kids with the sole aspiration of wiping asses in nursing homes someday. They must be proud, though, because they come out in droves during Internet discussions like these, beating their chests and asking, "Who will take care of you when you're old? MY kids ..." etc. etc.

The whole "my kids will take care of you someday" argument is more ridiculous every time I hear it.

I don't "owe" children anything. I owe the generations that came before me, that paid taxes that allowed me to get an education and become a productive adult. I don't bitch about paying taxes for schools and playgrounds and child welfare programs because I'd like to see this generation get the same chances I got, and because I think well-educated, well-fed kids make for a strong future society. (Whether this pans out in reality is another issue.)

I don't worship parents and their kids out of some misplaced hope that someday they will wipe my ass. Maybe some of the kids of today will, in fact, work for the nursing home that will keep me clean. But they will likely not be working for free. No, I will pay dearly for it. There's also the chance that these kids will be deadbeats or criminals or die before they reach adulthood. So it would be silly of me to count on them.

Spartee -

I'm actually a parent and I have to say, hell yes, I get snippy with adults that piss me off too. Not only that, but I have less and less quams about calling out parents, about their obnoxious fucking kids.

My child should not have to decide that it's just not worth going to one of his favorite places to eat and play, just because other people don't want to parent their fucking spawn. Consistently there are kids in McDonald's play land, most parks and school playgrounds, who don't follow the rules in such a way that it ruins other children's fun.

We have memberships to places like the children's museum and the local science and industry museum, where they don't put up with as much of that. But it is also important to socialize kids with a more diverse population and it's not reasonable to go to the places we have memberships everyday.

So I have absolutely no problem with getting on other parents who don't actually parent, when it interferes with my small child's ability to have a reasonable time. At the same time, I am allowing my son to see how adults deal with problems, including the occasional heated argument.

When I was little, there used to be this restaurant called "The Pillar House". It was, at the time, the only restaurant in the Boston area where a tie was still required. I wanted to go so badly! I thought it looked so elegant, what with the white pillars in the front, like a Greek temple or something.

My mom promised me if my table manners improved, she would take me out. I must have been 8 or 9.

When the big night came, it was everything I dreamed it would be. All sorts of exciting and interesting for a little girl... sorbet to cleanse the palette between the appetizer and the main course... and at the end of the meal they actually gave a rose to each lady! Including me! I was a lady!

Too bad Pillar Houses don't exist anymore, to tempt little girls with.

I agree with the "casual Fridayness". I want to get dressed up and go somewhere fancy.

"Somehow I just didn't realize there was an entire legion of parents raising their kids with the sole aspiration of wiping asses in nursing homes someday. They must be proud, though, because they come out in droves during Internet discussions like these, beating their chests and asking, "Who will take care of you when you're old? MY kids ..." etc. etc."

Seeing that I paid for their education, wiping my ass in my 'golden' years is the least they can do for me.