Full marks for trying to get a straight answer from this "moderate Muslim", Amy.

I wonder if there is really such a person as a moderate Muslim. There are so many opinion pieces from people professing to be so, but when you read them you find they always forget to mention the pornographic lust for violence of their death cult masquerading as a religion (or, with some nerve, as a culture).

Instead they take the high moral ground over Western values and frankly, with all their misogyny, anti-semitism and homophobia, they can keep it.

Thanks so much. As for whether there really is such a person as a "moderate Muslim," I think there are those who ignore the directions of the Quran, perhaps because they were not instructed in them. But, Islam is all about the conquering of others -- where other religions are not. As George Mason puts it:

http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2007/12/04/the_religion_ba_1.html

Islam is a global movement, the goal of which is to bring every living human being on the planet under its crushing totalitarian rule, the likes of which has never before been seen. Some of Islam is obvious and easy to identify. Some of it, however, lies beneath the surface, like an iceberg. The true nature of Islam sports a remarkable disguise. No other movement, not even Fascism or Communism, has been so determined to conquer the world and rule with such rigid, detailed, complete control over the day-to-day activities of the lives of everyone on the planet. Islam has a multi-pronged plan in place to accomplish this goal, and it is being implemented with increasing success throughout the world. Islam seeks to make the rest of the world become just like it: squalid, backward, and primitive.

Wherever it interfaces with populations it has not yet conquered, Islam destroys buildings, blows up men, women, and children, and imposes tight controls on people's lives. Islam is nihilism personified. Most of the worlds wars and conflicts are due to aggression caused by Islamists, fueled by Islam's evil doctrines. Islam brainwashes its own children, as well as the children of the conquered, in order to assure that future generations will continue carry out Jihad. This has been going on for 1400 years, yet the movement remains unopposed in any meaningful way anywhere in the world to this very day.

Note the fact that we even have to say "moderate Muslim," meaning, not like all those violent Muslims. Nobody talks about "moderate Jews," for example. There are Orthodox Jews, sure, but we don't need to differentiate between killer Jews and non-killer Jews.

Islam does not mean "peace," it means "submission." More on that here:

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-kills-not-peaceful.htm

Islam only means peace to Muslims who blindly submit. To Christians Islam means war, persecution and death. The Qur'an says: "Fight and slay the pagans [Christians] wherever ye find them and seize them, confine them, and lie in wait for them in every place of ambush" (Surah 9:5)

...Muslims are not real studious and tend to reject scholarship in favour of their own version of things. In other words, they invent stuff when it suits them. Take the definition of the word Islam. In the USA, I have heard Muslims actually say the word "Islam" means peace, trying to put a kinder gentler wrapping paper on their horrible religion. As you can see from the authorities below, the lexicon definition of "Islam" is submit. After which one will experience peace. Notice the cause and effect in this quote: First you submit in Islam... then second, after submitting, you will experience peace: "And a Muslim ... is 'one who submits' or surrenders to the will of God, thereby attaining peace of mind and soul." (The Joy of Sects, Peter Occhigrosso, 1996, p394-397) Problem is if you blindly swallow the mythical and fictitious claims of Islam as true, and never rock the boat, you will experience peace. But for the intelligent who reject Islam because they are not prepared to ignore the universal testimony of every history book in the world, Islam means war, persecution and death.

I'm guessing this girl Ani is one of those not-so-studious types. That's why she told me to read their books instead of actually telling me why I was wrong. Also, because I'm not. Islam preaches violence and evil and women with the rights of pets.

Ani Zonneveld has no incentive to be a "moderate Muslim". She currently enjoys all the privileges of Western Civ, and if things go in the tank, she can still claim she is a good Muslim and save her head from the chopping block.

Until there is an incentive to moderate Islam, we won't see any moderates speaking out. Most people sit on the fence until they have to choose.

Luke: "Moderate Muslim" does not mean spewing touchy-feely crap that's blatantly false. This woman isn't talking about what she wants Islam to be; she's claiming that's what it is already. And she's wrong.

Exactly. It's like saying "My brand of Christianity involves not believing in god or Jesus, but I do wear a cute little pink rhinestone cross."

The best religious people I know recognize their holy books as products of people from a bygone era trying to make sense of the universe, and build upon that rather than taking it literally.
Luke Y. Thompson , (But not the religion of Islam.) Their text was written by God and therefore can not be questioned.
There are many examples throughout history of Islamic scholars refusing to participate in arguments pertaining to the meaning of the Quran. They do not participate because there can be no interpretation. The words are literally treated as the words of God. That is why there can be no reform.

I'm lost. She is a moderate Muslim here's why. What makes someone anything? What makes a jew a jew, a christian a christian etc? Personal identification. The person is claiming to be Muslim and does not support the complete extermination or subjugation of all us heathens. Is she aligned with mainstream Islam? No, not he mid east version. This does not change the fact that she is Muslim. The separate Muslim sects in the Mideast call each other heretics all the time. Fight and kill each other under the religious tolerance exemption clause (though shalt not kill only applies to our people (redefined as needed)). The only way to identify a persons religious alignment is by asking them. What makes you an atheist? Your claiming that you do not believe in god or an after life. Would you be less of an atheist if some higher up in American Atheists claimed your secretly still jewish?
This is a Muslim who is choosing to ignore or re interpret portion of the Qur'an. Not that different from non-homophobic Christian sub sects.

"This woman isn't talking about what she wants Islam to be; she's claiming that's what it is already." Unless she's lying (sp) outright this is how she sees Islam and (conjecture here on my part) she sees those bomb poping loonies as heritics and betrayers of Allah's (SP) word.

Allah have another beer

It looks to me that anyone who claims to be against Islamic domination of the world while claiming to be Muslim is branded as either not Muslim or lying (sp).

Her references to the books is both attempting to answer your question and be self serving. Explain why Islam as she sees it is actually as she claims and to sell books. Hey she is a writer and she makes money doing it.

"sure, but we don't need to differentiate between killer Jews and non-killer Jews." I believe the term is fundamentalist and it is adjective that can be and has been applied to all religions, at one time or another.

Semantic games don't change anything.

It looks to me that anyone who claims to be against Christ being God is branded as either not Christian or lying.

and according to my faith of Islam, all human beings are equal

Yep Vlad, Liar

"It looks to me that anyone who claims to be against Christ being God is branded as either not Christian or lying." The spreading of the religion is in the bible to. So that means that all Christians who are opposed to the violent conversion (Latin America) are heretics or liars. Christ being the son of god is one of the fundamentals of Christianity otherwise it's Judaism. Even then you have "Jews for Jesus" so the lines are not that absolute. Not believing that Allah is the supreme creator makes you non-Muslim. Having differences of opinion on what the any religious says or that some parts of it are wrong through creative editing or misunderstanding.

If we brand all those that take their faith with a grain of salt as fakes then only fundies will constitute the faithful.

"It looks to me that anyone who claims to be against" homosexuals being abominations "is branded as either not Christian or lying."

Are you at all familiar with Irshad Manji? www.irshadmanji.com/ and her book "The Trouble With Islam Today: A Muslim's Call for Reform in Her Faith"? She seems to be making an effort, and doing it loudly enough to get a fair bit of press.

Vlad,
Christians interpret the bible. The bible was not written by God, except the ten commandments, It was inspired by God. Therefore evolving interpretations are allowed. The spreading of the religion is in the bible to. So that means that all Christians who are opposed to the violent conversion (Latin America) are heretics or liars. So the answer is no. Also, as you probably already know the bible dose not call for the violent conversion of Latin America.
After all, the violence that occurred in Latin America was at the hands of the Spanish and the Portuguese. It was done in the name of gold and sugar. Not in the name of God.
Besides Vlad, that is old testament stuff. Christians have the new Testament. So please show me where in the New Testament Jesus calls for the violent conversion of Latin America?
Christ being the son of god is one of the fundamentals of Christianity otherwise it's Judaism. So?
Even then you have "Jews for Jesus" so the lines are not that absolute. So they thought he was a great guy yet not God and that means what?
Not believing that Allah is the supreme creator makes you non-Muslim. What? Judaism and Christianity both believe Allah is the supreme creator.
Having differences of opinion on what the any religious says... There can be no differences of opinion when it comes to Gods written word. Show me one Muslim that doesn’t believe this.
"It looks to me that anyone who claims to be against" homosexuals being abominations "is branded as either not Christian or lying." HUHHHH? What are talking about? Are you confusing the attitude that the sin is an abomination with the sinner?
Weak stuff Vlad.

"What are talking about? Are you confusing the attitude that the sin is an abomination with the sinner?" Leviticus says to lay down with man as you do with women is an abominations. Same for a women during her cycle. So the acts are an abomination but it's a huge stretch to view the commiters of abominable acts as abominations? Last I checked the Catholic church still views gays with disgust.

"Besides Vlad, that is old testament stuff. Christians have the new Testament." Um last I checked when I was in Catholic school the bible had 2 testaments. Has this changed in recent years?

"It was done in the name of gold and sugar. Not in the name of God." No it was done for gold and sugar but it was done in the name of god.

"There can be no differences of opinion when it comes to Gods written word." There are multiple interpretations of the Qur'an as there are multiple sects of Islam. BTW if I remember correctly Mohammad was a profit and not Allah. That alone would leave room for interpretation.

"last I checked when I was in Catholic school the bible had 2 testaments. Has this changed in recent years?"

The new testament overrides the old. For example...

Exodus 21:23 (old testament)"If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."

Mathew 5:38 (new testament)"You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But I say to you, do not resist an evildoer. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."

vlad ,
(Leviticus says to lay down with man as you do with women is an abominations.) an act or a sin. Not pertaining to the individual.
(Last I checked the Catholic church still views gays with disgust.) is that their official stance? Most conservative religious institutions teach that homosexuality is a chosen, addictive behavior. However, the Roman Catholic church accepts the findings of almost all human sexuality researchers and mental health therapists that a minority of humans have a homosexual orientation. This is not something that they choose; rather they discover it after puberty. In other matters related to homosexuality, the Church agrees with other conservative religious groups. They regard homosexual orientation to be “objectively disordered” and view homosexual practices as very serious “sins gravely contrary to chastity”. 3 http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rom.htm
(Um last I checked when I was in Catholic school the bible had 2 testaments. Has this changed in recent years?) Not that I know of. The Old Testament is the history of the Jewish tribe. The New Testament is the way, the only way according to Christians. Christians do not view the old treatment as the path to God.
(No it was done for gold and sugar but it was done in the name of god.) That is a load of bull thrown upon you by your grade school history teachers. They went there for gold and sugar. That was it. Do you actually think European governments would have emptied their treasuries to convert the heathens?
(There are multiple interpretations of the Qur'an) No there are not. Back that one up please.
(BTW if I remember correctly Mohammad was a profit and not Allah. That alone would leave room for interpretation.) It dose not. Based on observing Muhammad's spiritual life, Muslims believe that the prophet received the Qur'an word for word from the Archangel Gabriel. As Muhammad received the spiritual words, he repeated these exact words to his followers. Due to this process, Muslims believe the Qur'an is free from errors and that any prophecy in the Qur'an is absolutely true. In addition, Muslims believe that the Qur'an has always existed (even before God created the physical universe). Therefore, Muslims believe the Qur'an comes from outside time-space. http://www.harvardhouse.com/Gabriel-to-Muhammad_Einstein_Method.htm
Vald, maybe you better study up on this stuff?

vlad ,
(Leviticus says to lay down with man as you do with women is an abominations.) an act or a sin. Not pertaining to the individual.
(Last I checked the Catholic church still views gays with disgust.) is that their official stance? Most conservative religious institutions teach that homosexuality is a chosen, addictive behavior. However, the Roman Catholic church accepts the findings of almost all human sexuality researchers and mental health therapists that a minority of humans have a homosexual orientation. This is not something that they choose; rather they discover it after puberty. In other matters related to homosexuality, the Church agrees with other conservative religious groups. They regard homosexual orientation to be “objectively disordered” and view homosexual practices as very serious “sins gravely contrary to chastity”. 3 http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rom.htm
(Um last I checked when I was in Catholic school the bible had 2 testaments. Has this changed in recent years?) Not that I know of. The Old Testament is the history of the Jewish tribe. The New Testament is the way, the only way according to Christians. Christians do not view the old treatment as the path to God.
(No it was done for gold and sugar but it was done in the name of god.) That is a load of bull thrown upon you by your grade school history teachers. They went there for gold and sugar. That was it. Do you actually think European governments would have emptied their treasuries to convert the heathens?
(There are multiple interpretations of the Qur'an) No there are not. Back that one up please.
(BTW if I remember correctly Mohammad was a profit and not Allah. That alone would leave room for interpretation.) It dose not. Based on observing Muhammad's spiritual life, Muslims believe that the prophet received the Qur'an word for word from the Archangel Gabriel. As Muhammad received the spiritual words, he repeated these exact words to his followers. Due to this process, Muslims believe the Qur'an is free from errors and that any prophecy in the Qur'an is absolutely true. In addition, Muslims believe that the Qur'an has always existed (even before God created the physical universe). Therefore, Muslims believe the Qur'an comes from outside time-space. http://www.harvardhouse.com/Gabriel-to-Muhammad_Einstein_Method.htm
Vald, maybe you better study up on this stuff?

And the problem is;
The Muslims believe that the Qur'an is a book of divine revelation that was revealed to Prophet Muhammad. The words in the Qur'an are the exact words spoken by God to Archangel Gabriel who transmitted it to Prophet Muhammad. The Muslims also believe in the other Holy Books: The Torah that was revealed to Prophet Moses, The Zaboor that was revealed to Prophet David, and The Gospel that was revealed to Prophet Jesus. However, the Muslims believe that all Holy Books before the Qur'an could not be preserved in their pure form. They had suffered gross distortion over the ages. Consequently, God sent another messenger, Prophet Muhammad, with a new revelation. Prophet Muhammad is the last messenger because his message and the Holy Book he brought forward, the Qur'an, are preserved till the Day of Judgement.
http://www.islam4all.com/new_page_34.htm

Fun thing to know: Peter Occhigrosso assisted Zappa with his autobiography.

"All Christians who are opposed to the violent conversion (Latin America) are heretics or liars."
Actually, this is totally false. Sure, the Bible calls for spreading the Christian faith. But it is absolutely impossible to force anyone into Christianity, because it must be believed in the heart.

You might like to know that here in my city of Sydney, Australia, a "Koranic Society" is trying to set up a Muslim school on the outskirts. The media paints them as, yes, innocent, peaceful Muslims just trying to be Muslims and how terrible it is that they are having to spend thousands of dollars jumping through the development hoops.

The locals say no way. (Now it goes to the Land and Environment Court.)

What are they going to teach there? The Koran of course and all that it preaches. Everyone who opposes the development has to defend themselves as "not racist", which is ridiculous since Islam isn't a race anyway. The elephant in the room is the violence and intolerance practised by Muslims following the Koran. No one stands up and spits out the real reason they must never be allowed to build Koranic schools here: because the purpose is to indoctrinate their jihadist fascism at most, and at least, to stay separate from the host country's culture as much as possible with their homophobia, misogyny and anti-semitism.

To top it all off, the conservative Catholic archbishop poors pity all over them, because, boo hoo they can't build their little school.

It is nauseating. I watch the Robert Spencer video you put up and wonder, despair! at how on earth can people be so blind. Yep, it is going to be a long, long haul in this war.

Two things:

Never, ever, waste your time dealing with Muslim women. No woman in her right mind would choose to be a Muslim, and any and all that do are insane and not worth talking to. "Muslim born" women are sheep with no sense of self and should be pitied. Female converts to Islam are simply nuts and get off on the demeaning way of life they have subjected themselves to and are no different than women who stay in abusive relationships for whatever reasons they have convinced themselves make it worth it. With Muslim women, at least they can say it's gods will. Whatever. They are not worth the time an effort it takes to even try to talk to them.

Never, ever, use sources that are obviously anti-Islam. You don't have to. There are plenty of pro-Islamic web sites out there that show Islam in just as bad a light, except they don't seem to know it.

If you use pro-Islam sites, they will just find some other reason to claim those sources you do cite are suspect, but they have to jump through more hoops to do so. "You have to read it in it's original Arabic". "That's a Sunni site." "It's the Whabbists who say that".

You'll never win an argument with a Muslim and with female Muslims it's just not worth the effort to even try to talk to them.

"Do you actually think European governments would have emptied their treasuries to convert the heathens?" Oh no I never said that it was paid for by the nobility to spread Christianity, that was the excuse they gave.

"No there are not. Back that one up please." Sunni and Shitti Muslims. Both think the other group are heritics and blasphemers.

"Therefore, Muslims believe the Qur'an comes from outside time-space." Now I want you to find me the quote in the Quaran that says that the Quaran (and not Allah) has existed before time.

"Female converts to Islam are simply nuts and get off on the demeaning way of life they have subjected themselves to and are no different than women who stay in abusive relationships for whatever reasons they have convinced themselves make it worth it." I can't picture any one arguing that one. Entering voluntarily into slavery means you have some serious issues.

Writing off Muslim women wholesale is too much like blaming the victims. We can't choose the country or culture we are born into. And for a Muslim woman to rebel- even in the most ordinary way -risks being killed by male relatives to preserve the family honour.

There are notable exceptions to the sheep mentality. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a shining example of overcoming such tyranny to emerge your own person, even all the while living under a death threat.

Re: the late, great Oriana Fallaci: she died a prophet.

"The new testament overrides the old. For example..."

Not if you read Jesus as reported by Matthew:

Matthew 5:17-20
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Yes. Islam can be extreme, but this is true of Jews (Israel) and Christians (the Crusades)...The kid in this picture is just the kind of rethinking that Islam in the West needs. In France especially (8mm + Muslims and 400,00 Jews), the issue is not so much jobs as it is Woman's' and Gay rights. Here is an example of positive and lighthearted change and yet you mock it. I actually empathize with your frustration with Islam and Woman's' rights in particular, but as I read what you have to say and how you say I wonder if you realize what a raging bigot you are. Sad.

LOL...

I am Muslim Woman and I want to kill you because you dont belive in Allaah!

hahahahahah.... I just shoked today many peoples still believe in so cheap lie news about Islam.

Regards from Indonesia.

Of course, not all Muslims want all non-Muslims dead, or follow the COMMANDS in the Quran (which is to be taken literally and unquestioningly as the word of Allah) to convert or murder them.

See Sura 9:5, Dina, and you might find yourself choking on your laughter.

Here’s the deal. There are two Islams. One is a religion, practiced by many perfectly nice people who have no idea what the Quran says. They are the Muslim version of Christmas Christians.

The others practice Islam as commanded by the Quran: as totalitarianism masquerading as religion.

I’m an atheist, and I think the evidence-free belief in god is silly, but if you want to believe in god, or in numerology or astrology, well, as long as you don’t want to kill me because I don’t think the moon in Capricorn has relevance to my Wednesday, well, have at it.

That’s where my “tolerance” begins and ends.

If you stone women for adultery and gays for being gay, as commanded by Sharia law (and the Hadith — the words and deeds of Mohammed and his close associates), well, that’s something I cannot tolerate, nor should anyone tolerate. Tragically, horribly, here are two teenage boys were were slaughtered for being gay.

http://bit.ly/df0Jtr

What I want to know is why you are wasting your time speaking out here instead of speaking out against the horrors commanded -- yes, COMMANDED -- in the Quran and Hadith?

I'm guessing you have never read the Quran. Many Muslims have not, and have no idea what an absolutely evil-commanding book it is. The bible also has nasty stuff in it, but it is taken as allegory by Jews and Christians.

Check out the weekly and monthly death toll on thereligionofpeace.com and see why you need to be railing against Islam, not Amy. October's not even half over and here's the tally so far:

Monthly Jihad Report
October, 2010
Jihad Attacks:
181

Dead Bodies:
616

Critically Injured:
923

Guess a lot of people believe that bullshit about the 72 virgins.

i can see were your coming from and understand why by looking at just the quran you have come to well i would say an unfair conclusion about our religion. yes as muslims we must learn and understand the quran and follow it to the best of our abilities but not everything in the quran is to be literate nor should anyone follow anything that hasnt be properly explained to them thats were alot of extremist muslims are going wrong these are people who have not be properly educated about islam and this is were the sunna of the prophet comes in, the commandments in the quran have rulings and the sunna explains how to deal with these issues in a genital but effective way.

for example the cutting of the hand of a thief harsh yes heartless even yes now people can make muslims look like animals that go around cutting off hand of poor hungry kids but that far from the case for one the ruling cant take place unless u have sharia law in place so u would need a judge jury witness all that not to mention u must give the person 3 warnings before taking them to court and the person who has been stealing must not be an orphan or poor person whos stealing to survive so basically its someone doing it out of spit or for fun or what ever the case is that teaches bad habits and after 3 warnings and being put away fined a penalty what ever it is that has been done before the person is still stealing then yes one hand or finger depending on the judge will be cut of in fround of the community for that person to be an example for all the others who are doing such things but as u can see u must go past allot before reaching this stage and it is hardly ever done like wise with the stoning of the two that commit adultery.

know i respect everyone's opinion and i know alot of the hurtful stuff said by non muslims are from ignorance to the teaching and rulings of the religion but if every you come across a person who is saying horrible things about a religion be any religion i think you should question their knowledge of the topic coz is more and more people are converting to islam and it has millions of follower then come on there must be something right about it.