That's a tough one. Assuming they split the expenses 50/50 now, maybe she could start paying only 1/3. Leaving hubby to pick up the tab for his slacker daughter. Or maybe 1/4 if you include the rugrat.
My guess would be that she's going to need to threaten divorce. And how great a guy can he be if he's allowed this to go on?

I have a similar situation, my wife's daughter moved back in last July and makes good money. She does not pay anything and when I ask my wife to have her pick her messy room up she says it's her area leave her alone. She leaves her dirty dishes downstairs for a week and garbage and gets mad when I ask her to pick the dishes up. But I do not agree, she does not pay one cent to live there and she eats anything she wants, and does not like to listen to me. I feel like charging her rent or asking her to move out. What do you think?

Unfortunately, the only solution that is likely to work is if stepmom moves out. Daddy will never kick out his little girl, if he's been letting her freeload this long.

Can you say "enabler"? Because that's what this girl's father is. LW needs to tell him that it's putting a strain on their marriage. (As if he didn't know.) He needs to step up and tell her to either pull her weight or get out and get her own place. LW/Wife needs to stop picking up after the daughter and her child, NOW. She needs to NOT be available as a sitter/laundress/cook/etc. NOW. Then she needs to make a plan in which she has an escape route, because she also needs to explain to her husband that it's either them or her. And mean it! NO excuses, no bullshit, no more. The daughter has WAY overstepped her bounds, and the father (NOT the LW) needs to put a stop to it. Of course he's going to feel guilty about it, and that's what the daughter is counting on! She's playing both of them like a cheap fiddle. Give her 3 months to find a place and move out. At the end of 3 months, put her stuff out on the lawn, and change the locks. This girl is over 21, gainfully employed, and a user of the highest order. Her father is no longer responsible for her, and she needs to get over herself and start making a life for herself and her little Attila (I think the LW meant "mongol" not "mogul"!). She'll be pissed off for a while, but if she's as smart as she seems to be (after all, where else can you live these days for free, if not off Daddy?), she'll realize he did her a favor. It'll be hard, but to not do it will be detrimental to their relationship in the long run. My BF's daughter just moved in with us after finishing college, and while our situation is not as dire as LW's, BF laid down the law right away with his daughter: you pull your weight, you pick up after yourself and your cat, you get a job asap, and you take care of yourself and your bills. So far, so good, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed. (We all get along well, for the most part, and I know she's having a tough time finding a job right now, but we are all confident she'll get one soon.)

Sadly for LW and Lowell, Ann is absolutely correct. If LW tries to force her husband to evict the guests, he will likely resent her. LW should appeal to his sense of reason, and consider asking him to go to counseling, to achieve the immediate goal. Failing that, leave and tell him you'll be back when daughter and kid are gone.

Sorry. LW's relationship is probably doomed. I've dated a few men with spoiled daughters and learned the hard way: daddy's little girl gets what she wants. Always. Especially to the exclusion of Daddy's girlfriend.

Give him the ultimatum LW - but only if you really follow through with it - because he's already shown he puts her wants before your needs. Don't you fall into the same trap.

Lowell - you do not say how old your stepdaughter is. If she's still under 20, hang in there. In my experience Moms don't put up with this as long as Daddies. Also, have you thought of taking your stepdaughter for lunch, then your wife out for dinner and a heart to heart with each of them?

If she cares enough about the relationship to spend some time building her case, she can start by talking to the husband about formalizing an arrangement for the brat - sorry, stepdaughter - to start paying a share of expenses.

If she can get him to accept that it's reasonable (given increased food and energy costs) for the brat to pick up a part of the household costs, and gets him to tell the brat this, the brat's likely to throw a fit. At which point, either daddy realizes that this is a problem or he doesn't.

If he realizes it's a problem, then *he* tosses the brat out on her bum.

If he doesn't realize that throwing a temper tantrum in response to "hey, maybe you could help out around here" (or if he refuses to realize that she's in a position now where she can and *should* help out), then the letter-writer needs to leave him. If daddy is that blind to the problem, then she'll never be more than an accessory that helps support the precious spawn.

I had a friend in a similar situation, except the genders of the parents were reversed.

I'd recommend one of the following, since I don't know all of the specifics.

1. She should make it clear their marriage is on rocky ground and get a relationship counselor involved. It might help him to understand her position if there is a mediator. It sounds like she needs that help getting her state across to her husband.

2. If that isn't an option and she also works, separate the finances. She has her own accounts, he has his. They split the bills 3-ways. He can pay for his and his daughter's thirds if he wants. There is no reason for the stepmom to pay from her income for an ADULT freeloader if she doesn't want to. As her husband is also an adult, he can spend his own money on his own choices. If he wants to make his daughter pay after that, that's between the two of them, the mom doesn't have to shoulder that burden any more.

As for the "pig" portion of things, the dad should be expected to pick up after his own daughter if he can't teach her to be grown-up. But that's best addressed in counseling.

My dad "enables" his sons (the eldest of us actually - in their 40's now) quite a bit. My mother resents that, as her kids (and myself - being their only mutual child) have not received - nor needed - such charity. Having a portion of separate finances (not completely) even to the point of his son's portion of the Will being held separately in trust, ended up resolving about the ONLY issue in their marriage.

The first thing the LW needs to do is look for an apartment of her own. She will feel 100% better when she is away from the freeloading daughter and her screeching brat. She will finally be able to enjoy some peace and quiet.

Her new place might provide a safe haven for her and her husband to enjoy some privacy and rekindle their romance. He may realize how much he misses her and grow a spine.

But if that hasn't happened after six months, it's time to file for divorce so she can extricate her finances from his. There's nothing that says she has to end her relationship with him - she can go back to being his girlfriend if they continue to have feelings for each other. But if he is going to keep supporting the freeloading stepdaughter, she needs to take steps to make sure HER money isn't being used for that purpose.

If I was the LW, I'd be really angry with him for being such a spineless wimp. I guess I just find it hard to feel attracted to someone I have no respect for.

The first thing the LW needs to do is look for an apartment of her own.

Did you miss that they bought this house together?

Granted, I'm bucking the predominant opinions here, but I'd like to hear the other sides of the story. Everyone seems eager to villify the step-daughter and take the step-mother's words as true. But the step-daughter doesn't entirely seem like someone who is "spoiled rotten". She was working full-time and going to school full-time, while taking care of a toddler, paid off her bills, and has now gotten a good job. She's not sitting home eating bonbons watching soaps, and racking up the credit card debt. So she isn't afraid of hard work and taking the initiative, nor does it sound like she is indulgent of herself. I have plenty of acquaintances who have had their kids at that age stay with them, or were the kid staying with the parent, while they were getting back on their feet or in some kind of situation, for some reason. No one likes staying with their parents, in my experience, and they tend not to do it unless they have to. There wasn't a problem in these other cases, though, because the parents were still married to each other so neither parent objected. I guess when parents split up and get remarried, they can only be counted on to help their kids to the extent their new spouse OK's it first?

The additional complaints the step-mother voices could be purely subjective (regarding tantrums, being a pig, and being spoiled--they could be true, or they could be the sort of reflexive criticisms voiced by a narcissistic person. If you've ever dealt with such a person, you'll know they're very big on projection. So finding out which one is the spoiled one, and which one is throwing the tantrums, requires more to the story before I can accept anyone's version of events. Whether the LW has been more than accomodating and understanding, or whether she has been nasty and selfish from the get-go, is hard to see with the info we've been given. Actually, I'm unclear who throws the tantrums--it sounds more like the toddler than the mom. Toddlers do that. Caring grandparents accept such behavior as the price of being a grandparent and raising kids, or, if the tantrums are genuinely abnormal, they voice concern that the grandchild is emotionally disturbed and acting out, and generally wish to help if they can). Why is the father continuing to allow the daughter to stay there? Is it a situation like that she's saving for a down payment on a house? Or does she just not want to leave? Have they asked her to pay for her share of expenses and she's refused, or is the father afraid to ask her? Or has she offered, and he's refused? Parents who've gotten divorced often feel guilty, and as a result indulge the kids and don't discipline them or act appropriately parental. Is that the case here, and is it being carried to a second generation, or is that just the LW view? Another consideration is that moving a lot can be pretty disruptive to a toddler, so there are additional issues beyond the needs of the adults in the story--a grandfather might want to ensure that his grandchild will have a secure, safe place to live, with access to good daycare, and be willing to have a bit of discomfort for some months to make that happen, while a step-grandmother might not give a shit. I agree that the situation cannot continue--this is the step-mother's house too, and she needs to have a say. But I can't come to any conclusions yet about the characters of those involved. The solution, though, would I think be to set out a schedule for their departure, and find out what is needed to make that happen, and make a plan and timeline. They could work out a rent schedule, but since the ultimate objective is to get them out of the house ASAP, paying rent might actually delay that happening. Better to get them out faster.

quizzical:

That's why I recommended trying to involve a mediator first, even if it sounds like passing the buck. It'd be a good chance for HIM to state his view as well.

The second option (divide finances and split everything in thirds) is realistic, and practical. However, I think - since only one side of the story is being heard - the counselor would be best.

Personally, though, any adult that's employed should pay their own way. LW's additional adjectives aside, it's perfectly reasonable to expect the step-daughter to contribute as much as possible if she's a gainfully employed adult. LW's FIRST complaint is financial, and that's easier to address than the "cleaning up/spoiled brat" part.

I've been in a similar situation in times past. IMHO the best thing to do is this:

Talk with her husband that she absolutely needs for there to be just her and him in the home. Give the girl 2 months to find her own place. Insist that the first 2 months of rent will be covered by her and her husband. After that they'll pay 50% of the rent for the following 4 months. Then she's on her own.

If the husband refuses to agree with this then the wife MUST leave him until he changes his mind.

One thing comes to mind: Has the asked the daughter herself to move out? You know, a small chat in which she tells her step-daughter that she's proud of her for accomplishing her goals and that the best way for her to thank them is to find a place of their own and visit as often as they can. Something like that.

If the daughter refuses, then I would probably advise her to separate her money from his (if not already) and to not pick up messes that don't belong to her. Once you stop contributing to the problem, it usually piles up on itself and the person who didn't see it as a problem suddenly gets the idea.

Oh, and because she complained of no privacy or sex, but didn't mention if he missed it or not (which would be unusual): Take him away to a hotel for the weekend and show him what he's been missing. I think it would help the both of them, and he might get the picture that daughter and child being gone would mean more of this without the hotel bill.

Boy, oh, boy. Talk about personal bias. I was right down the line does this sound familiar (apropros my situation with my daughter) until I read quizzical's post. You made some good points, quiz, and I went back and reread the letter and, yes, this could be taken either way. You can't really tell and given that the stepdaughter is working full-time and apparently has been for some time, I suspect she can't be quite the bum LW paints her to be.

I will say this, though, from hard experience, if any of it is true. I never knew this before my daughter's illness but sloppiness is a symptom of depression. (Certainly possible after a divorce.) I'm sure not always but it is one thing that's supposed to be a trigger with my daughter that she's sliding into deeper depression and needs to manage the illness. This does not sound the case here because if it were it's highly unlikely that the daughter would have finished school and gone right to work full-time (all stressors, yes, damn it, I'm learning the jargon).

However, I'd second quizical's deduction. They need to sit down and talk (with a counselor/mediator if they can't without) and work out a timeline for leaving. Daughter has to realize she can't impose forever but LW also needs to realize, especially with a young child involved, it's gonna take a little time and arranging to be done right.

"Did you miss that they bought this house together?"

Nope - but that (in retrospect) was a mistake, and is what has gotten her trapped in this situation. I still say she needs to get out of there, and down the line, a divorce settlement should retrieve her equity in the house.

Maybe she could kindly remind her husband about the marriage vows he took? Especially the part about "love, honor and cherish"?

After your kids turn eighteen, you are no longer legally responsible for supporting them. It doesn't matter if the daughter is Mother Theresa. Daddy married someone else. His legal obligations are to the new wife. Everyone (except the toddler, of course) is an adult, here.

I've witnessed a child playing off the guilty emotions one or both parents have after a divorce. It's not pretty. And unfortunately, the father in this case is getting something emotionally out of the situation. There's no other way to explain his behavior, given the circumstances. You don't allow someone with a job to freeload off you. You CERTAINLY don't allow it for over a year.

If I were the wife, I'd sit the daughter down alone and ask her "Honestly, why are you here? Why do you feel you can stay in this household without contributing anything? How long do you expect me to cheerfully clean up after you and your toddler?" Faced with that, there's not really a lot you could do to defend yourself. I suspect given the wording of the letter that Wife and Daughter don't talk very often and Daddy never broaches the subject. Dad isn't going to do anything. If Wife wants Daughter gone, she needs to take the initiative. And if the daughter turns around and goes crying to Daddy, who subsequently mentions it to the wife? That's the perfect time to have a "heart to heart" talk about your true feelings.

Personally, I couldn't fathom moving back in with my parents for any reason, whatsoever. And I really do love my parents. But they raised me to be financially independent. Of course, they also raised me to clean up after myself...

As an aside: I love it when people say "I work full time, go to school full time, AND raise my children." The math on that doesn't add up. When, exactly are you raising your children? Between the 80 hours a week you are either in school or work, the 10-12 hours a week you spend on school assignments, and the 42 hours you spend sleeping (assuming you get six hours a night,) that only leaves a few hours a day for "child raising."

Okay. I'm done trying to be reasonable and rational and am going for the more entertaining imagry.

Angry Mom and Petulant Step-Daughter in a no-holds barred cage match. The winner gains the title and gets to stay in the house. The loser is evicted.

Wimpy dad gets to provide color commentary from outside the cage, and may pass an axe handle through the cage walls to whomever he's more sympathetic to at the time for added drama.

For clarification, my comments stem from the assumption that this situation is already intractable. If her only options are stay and put up with it or leave, I vote for cutting her losses and leaving. The husband sounds like a complete wimp.

Jamie that only works if they are both hot and there is mud or jello

lujlp:

I'm a simple enough guy.
I'm perfectly fine with over-the-top violence if there isn't enough eye-candy potential. Give anyone a couple months of intensive wrasslin' training and conditioning, and they can at least make a good fight of it.

Years ago, when I was about 16, my dad told me a story about a friend of his. That guy had a son that graduated from high school, went off to college, and came home. One day said guy asked his son to mow the lawn, the son said no. As soon as he went out, said guy packed his son's stuff into boxes and put it outside the house to the left of the door, he put the lawnmower to the right of the door.

Within an hour after sonny boy's return, the lawn was mowed.

I'd recommend a similarly decisive approach. Parental obligations of support end legally at age 18. After that, its all charity. What struck me in this case is that, while some is possible projection, if we assume that the LW's basic true/false items are honest, then the daughter is fundamentally a deadbeat. If she's not paying her way, and is trashing the house that is offered her, and has no plan except to repeat as needed as long as possible, well there's a problem.

If I were the wife, I'd start charging for child care services. Oh, you're planning on going to work this week...have you planned for childcare? Because I'm going someplace, oh now you need me, well here is the bill, cash, up front.

Can't play games with deadbeats, they come in all shapes and sizes, but under it all, their ongoing quality is selfishness.

Except for the deadbeat step daughter, the marriage is wonderful for six years? I'd like to hear the LW's definition of wonderful.

Kind of like 'my wife was wonderful, and we had a perfect marriage for six years, until I found out she was actually a man'.

OK, maybe this situation is not that extreme. But I say all things being equal, the LW tells her husband out with the daughter and grand kid. Give them a month or two to make it easier. And if the husband says no, then 'throw him out with the bathwater'. She owns half the house anyway, so she should be prepared to file the divorce papers first.

No one should impose so much 'family' on his spouse. And if he can't resolve the situation, then he is spineless, and LW is better off without him.

She was working full-time and going to school full-time, while taking care of a toddler, paid off her bills, and has now gotten a good job. She's not sitting home eating bonbons watching soaps, and racking up the credit card debt. So she isn't afraid of hard work and taking the initiative, nor does it sound like she is indulgent of herself.

I suppose this is harsh of me, but she managed to pay off those bills on the backs of her dad and stepmother. It's great that she did pay them off, rather than racking up debt buying designer clothes for the tot, true.

But I call her selfish if she managed to pay off all of her debt while somehow not having a few bucks to spare to help with groceries. To me, that says that she's unconcerned about how much additional strain she's put on her dad and stepmom's budget.

Oh my, hilarious! There's nothing tough about this! Either the step-daughter and kid leave, or the step-daughter, kid and husband all leave. Nothing to do with who's good or evil: 25 is grown up, and the co-owner of the house wants her out. Period.

You just posted the question to get everyone going, right, Amy?

Amy,
When I moved in with angel she had two teenage sons who were waltzing all over. Between her disability and her fear that her ex-husband would use her disability as leverage to sue for custody she felt constrained to allow the boys to have their way.
So yes, I kinda know where you are.
Let me tell you about an instance with eldest: one day I manipulated eldest into doing some laundry and salted my jeans with a fistful of change. He of course found and claimed "finders keepers" (my intent all along, but I waited until he was 23 and married to tell him this).
A week or three later I went through rooms collecting laundry knowing... KNOWING... he had most of a paycheck in one of his pants pockets. I put the greater bulk of his paycheck in his nightstand drawer and left a $20.00 in the pocket. I had angel join me in the kitchen as I did that load of laundry and made quite the issue over finding it in her presence. I of course pocketed the cash (calm down, it bought us a pizza dinner that weekend) and thanked eldest when he arrived home.
His reaction? Take a wild guess.
As I had quite predicted the kid blew a fuze yelling quite the tirade about my taking laundry out of his room whence I reminded him of his finders keepers stance on the fistful of change.
His reaction? Take a wild guess.
Thoroughly predictable (he rose to the bait like a starved carp) the lad was and he yelled at me to “stay out of MY room and leave MY laundry alone.
I stuck out a big paw and said "DEAL!". From that day forward I never went into his room for laundry... within a week he figured out if he wanted his clothes washed he better d*mn well get it into the hamper.
Kids can be trained, ya jes hafta be sneeeeeeeeeeeeeeeky about it.
And I broke them of cluttering the house in a somewhat similar fashion. They were cautioned when about their debris and then informed it would be collected as surplus and donated to Goodwill.
They learned to not leave stuff laying about the house when I boxed it up and put the box under the crawlspace and marked it [SURPLUS-Goodwill].
And one more pointer: inevitably within a week of marrying angel I heard the infamous line "you're not my daddy!"... to which I replied "nope, I'm not. But I am your mothers husband and you'd do well to remember that, because in 3 years you're going to be 18 and how welcome you are around here after that depends on your attitude now".
Eldest was evicted at just shy of 18 due to threats made against me and my daughter. Youngest moved out when he became seriously involved with a wonderful gal whom he will quite likely wed when they are ready.
Point is Amy. You may not be this childs mother, and she may care to think of you as mommy... but you ARE Greggs wife.
She would do well to consider that, and so would Gregg if he wants a relationship with you when this child wears his patience thin as thoroughly as she's worn yours thin.
As for step-daughters debris around the house? Bag it and tag it as [SURPLUS] destined for Goodwill. The first time you carry through with it she'll likely get the message she in the Big Leagues now and you're not playing frisbee with her anymore.
Seriously kiddo, draw the line and don't budge. If you back up an inch, she'll want a foot. If you compromise and give her six inches she'll be back for a yard within the week.
Don't expect any support from Gregg, it's lost on him. Men think of 'subtle' as using a 22oz ball peen hammer in lieu of a sledge hammer... where you can manage handily with a tack hammer.
In the game of subtlety men have always been and will always be at the mercy of a manipulative woman.
Use this to your fullest advantage... but be fair to your marriage when applying it.
Gunner Retired

GR I think you were skimming, this was a letter Amy got in her emial

Hats off to LW and hubby for keeping the daughter from becoming another single mom with a high school diploma scraping by on welfare and minimum wage.

But now she's finished school and out of debt at 23 -- my god, my school loans took a decade to pay off! -- the child is ready for pre-school and young mommy is overdue to fly the coop.

I'd say sit down and work out a transition plan to have her out on her own in a reasonable amount of time and tell her to start saving her pesos.

Beg pardon, she's 25, not 23. Even better.

Point is Amy. You may not be this childs mother, and she may care to think of you as mommy... but you ARE Greggs wife.

Uh, I'm not married to Gregg or anybody, Gregg and I don't live together, and I don't have a stepdaughter.

This is an e-mail somebody sent me. Perhaps you hadn't heard, but I write an advice column, and lately, thanks to Bank of America, I've been a little overwhelmed.

Bank of America tellers, for anyone just tuning in, on seven occasions, gave away a total $12,000 of my money to a thief or thieves; on at least one occasion, to a woman with missing teeth a fake driver's license in my name with the wrong expiration date. Had they exercised the most minimum due diligence, I wouldn't be in the position I'm now in...dealing with the aftermath daily.

My health insurance will be cancelled July 1 if I don't get Kaiser the money I owe them. I've always had my health insurance direct-deducted from my account, but my account was closed in a panic because of the theft, and Kaiser couldn't direct-deduct the money. I wanted to Fedex them the checks or pay with a credit card, better yet, but neither was possible. I mailed them the check, on the 20th, from Beverly Hills to Pasadena, and it has yet to get there. Mail in Los Angeles takes one day. Tomorrow, I'll probably have to call the post office in Beverly Hills, try to figure out what street the mailbox was on, and see if they're missing letters behind one of those plastic postal carrier boxes or did somebody do something nefarious with my letter?

Then, I have to resend the check and hope it gets there before Tuesday. Or Gregg volunteered to drive it to Pasadena, but I don't think you can just drop it in a Post Office Box...it has to be mailed.

I hate Bank of America with every bone in my body. As soon as I have a spare moment, I'm going to start pitching this story to national TV shows. They won't give me the tape of the thief, and Nereida Claudius, some customer service VP, told me their detectives were working with the police. At the point when she told me that, I called the police and they said they hadn't heard a peep from Bank of America. Disgusting.

Oh, and Gunner, in case you hadn't heard, I don't believe in marriage and find it uncivilized to live with other humans.

Bank of America tellers, for anyone just tuning in, on seven occasions, gave away a total $12,000 of my money to a thief or thieves

Amy: will Bank of America give you back this money? Just wondering what the laws are.

Sure, because it was clearly not me (I am a skinny white girl with all my teeth, not a fat black woman with missing teeth). I have the money back. But, I continue to lose time because of this.

I woke up early to write, but got off the phone just now with a lady at the post office -- the 1800 number -- to file a report about the missing check. And of course, she sends it to the Santa Monica post office...dim...because she "didn't know" the Beverly Hills post office. I discover this and look up BH on the Internet for her. Grrr!

It's the mailbox on North Linden Drive off Santa Monica. I'm wondering if it's supposed to be out of service or something or if my letter fell behind one of those plastic boxes. So upsetting. Every day I piss away time on this -- yesterday, it was calling Kaiser and Bank of America about my IRA. They managed to help me get my identity stolen, but they couldn't manage to put the money in from my visit April 2 by tax day, so now my IRA is counting for 2008 instead of 2007. They will fix this, I hope. But, have not yet. Assholes.

Also, they will not give me the tape of the woman. Been fighting for that. I'm going to pitch this to TV shows very soon. Just need to actually have a writing day today, as much as that's possible.

Hey Amy, I was just thinking about your situation w/BoA the other day. And if you do get your hands on the video of that woman, see if you can also get a video of her walking in from outside w/maybe her car in view. That might make it easier to track her. If they won't even give you the inside video, I doubt they'll give you the vid of the parking lot. However now that you're trying to get the media involved, there's a better chance of that happening.
Just a thought.

Also, they will not give me the tape of the woman. Been fighting for that. I'm going to pitch this to TV shows very soon.

I would think John Stossel would be all over this.

Only because I pushed the police did anybody even open my case file and then send it on to Texas and Dixon City and Auburn police. The cops, as far as I know, still haven't heard from BofA investigators. One of the Texas detectives, who's been great, said Target has parking lot cameras and is pretty good re: providing ammunition for catching thieves.

There's nothing tough about this! Either the step-daughter and kid leave, or the step-daughter, kid and husband all leave. Nothing to do with who's good or evil: 25 is grown up, and the co-owner of the house wants her out. Period.

You just posted the question to get everyone going, right, Amy?

No, she posted it because the question is how to get the kids out without losing the husband, too, since the LW wants to keep the husband. If one is going to make an ultimatum, then one must be really sure that either choice is OK. Though in general, I'm against ultimatums--it's manipulative, and/or a sign that a situation has deteriorated to such an extent that it's no longer workable in any fashion. The responses to this question have struck me as unusually harsh. Talk of no "legal obligations" after age 18, of kicking kids out after 18, of the obligation being "to your wife", of promising to "love, honor, and cherish *your wife*" being the paramount concern, all strike me as vast simplifications, as well as cold and antithetical to the concept of "family" by which most individuals organize their life and concerns. The "legal obligation" is the BARE MINIMUM of what any kid can expect--it's there to protect kids from neglect and parents who don't give a shit, and to keep society from having to pay for other people's responsibilities. However, it has nothing to do with concepts of family, and love, and nurturing behavior, and what is best for all concerned, and never the sort of guideline that a good parent actually uses as their judge of how to treat a kid. And people seem to be dancing around one of the central issues, which is the situation of step-families. This would be far less likely to be an issue for an advice columnist or for mediation if it were an intact family. In such a case, it is likely that both parents would want what was best for their child and grandchild. But with a step-parent, it seems like the child and grandchild's interests are not a big consideration. You wouldn't find a parent/grandparent speaking so contemptuously of their kid/grandkid. And when parents discipline their kids, they're ideally doing it in order to make the kid a better, more responsible person, and they're doing it out of love. The LW (and Gunner, above) seem to be doing it more out of self-preservation and hostility than out of any desire to make the kid a better person. And the kid/grandkid knows it, and is hostile in return. And the parent feels guilty, and so doesn't do their job of disciplining and taking a hard, tough line when it's appropriate, out of guilt and a desire to not be like their spouse, who IS taking a tough line, but with the wrong motivations. And all this is going to cause problems. Most or all of you seem to be seeing this whole situation from the LW point of view, like "hey, I don't want this freeloader in my house! This is MY husband now, get out of my life!" But: just as the husband promised to "love, honor and cherish," so did the wife. And part and parcel of that is to be part of the family he has, and to help support him with family concerns, of which his child and grandchild are members. He should do no less for her children and grandchildren, if she has any. And to say "the husband's responsibility is to his wife now" is a vast oversimplification. Being married to a new wife doesn't mean he's divorced from his child and grandchild. And "responsibility" to the wife doesn't mean he must defer to her in all matters, or that there's some kind of hierarchy between wife and daughter. All of these people are now in a family together, and have multiple bonds. The wife should not be the gatekeeper between the father and the daughter and grandchild.

So the point is, while there IS a problem here, while it's clearly untenable and inappropriate for the daughter and granddaughter to continue to live in that house, ultimatums to kick the daughter and toddler to the curb are PART of the problem, not the solution. It's also untenable and inappropriate for the step-mother to act (not think--she can think what she likes--but ACT) with such hostility. And it's untenable and inappropriate for the father to not take a responsible hand with his daughter to arrange an exit strategy for her and her child. The LW complains that it's basically the daughter's fault that she and her husband barely have sex. No. The daughter doesn't have that kind of power. The LW is using the daughter as a scapegoat. One of the two of the married couple, or both, are withholding sex because they're angry at the other, is my impression. The suggestion to take him to a hotel and fuck him into the conviction he should kick his daughter and grandchild out (suggested above) is hardly healthy. Your vagina isn't a magic box to be used to hypnotize men to your will. It may work temporarily, but there's always another vagina to fulfill that function and, agian, it's manipulative.

So my solution is that everyone back off, calm down, and act out of logic and concern and not hostility and manipulation. Since we only have the LW to make suggestions to, as the daughter and the father aren't reading Amy, my recommendation to her would be to stop acting so hostile (again, she can think what she likes, but acting hostile is just going to cause father and daughter to see her as not acting out of care and love, but out of selfish concern about only herself, *regardless of any of the rightness of what she is saying*). This will likely cause her husband to be more receptive to what she has to say. From there, they can do several things. Hire a maid so the messiness is no longer an issue. Make your husband pay for it. Discuss exit strategies with timetable.

"Your vagina isn't a magic box to be used to hypnotize men to your will."

*SNOORRRRRRKKKKK!!!* This one's going on the wall 'o quotes.

Amy,
Correct you are. That's what I get for responding to things before I've had some coffee ( I was just out of bed when I wrote that last night) and are awake enough to read through without crossing it up..
But the premise remains the same, draw a line and don't budge. When they cross the line, carry through.
G_R

"Your vagina isn't a magic box to be used to hypnotize men to your will."

But ... I LIKE the magic box!

But ... I LIKE the magic box!

You are perfectly free to like the magic box as long and as often as you wish. However, you've got to do your thinking outside the box.

Thank-you everybody for comments. I realized I am the ultimate passive aggressive. So I had a talk with the 25 year old college educated step daughter.I told her nothing personal but I want my privacy and my home back. So I needed her moved out plan. She exploded and stormed out. I celebrated with a big glass of wine.

Congratulations LW, I'll raise a glass of bourbon to you tonight in honor of your new found freedom. *s*

Congrats, LW. What has happened since then?

good luck on filmin band of brothers 8, better be a good season. I haven't stopped thinking about the end of 7 since the summer