Not Everybody Should Go To College
I was talking about this last night with a friend who substitute-taught school once in Oakland, California -- for four days, and then quit in disgust -- about how there should be more emphasis on vocational education for kids.
Here's a story in the Daily Mail about the super-rich who made their fortunes without going to college. Laura Clark writes:
They graduated from the University of Life and went on to accumulate massive wealth.An alternative Rich List published today shows that missing out on traditional prestige qualifications is no barrier to extraordinary success.
The list features entrepreneurs such as John Caudwell, John Frieda, Gordon Ramsay, Deborah Meaden of Dragons' Den fame, and Dame Vivienne Westwood, who all served time as apprentices or took vocational training.
As for my friend, on one of her four days, she was told that her only job was to see that she had the same number of students at the end of the day that she had at the beginning. At one point, this required getting one student to keep another student from escaping out the window.
Lovely.
Of course, while it's nice that these people above got wealthy without a college degree -- yes, somehow, they were able to make it without filling their brains with post-structuralism and all sorts of other hooha -- what's with the way we look down on people in workaday jobs?
I'm reminded of a passage from a book I'm reading, recommended by Crid, Theodore Dalrymple's In Praise of Prejudice: The Necessity of Preconceived Ideas:
First is the assumption that there is something wrong, humiliating, even dishonorable about low-paid, unskilled labor (though by low-paid in the modern context, be it remembered, we do not mean starvation wages)....Second is the evident disdain for supermarket shelf-stacking as an activity. Does the author, I wonder, never shop in a supermarket? Would she prefer that supermarket shelves remain unstacked and all the goods piled in a great heap, for shoppers to clamber over as rubbish tips in the Third World are clambered over by the very poor, seeking what is valuable or desired among the dross?
Dalrymple is responding to an article in The Guardian by Madeleine Bunting -- specifically, to this passage:
So when a girl at 17 decides to go ahead and have a baby, there is no tragedy of lost opportunity other than the local checkout till waiting for her low-paid labour. Why is it that in Labour's crusade against teenage pregnancy, it can't recognise that some of these teen mums are making reasonable - even moral - decisions about what they value in life, and what they want to do with their lives? How did opting for baby and motherhood over shelf-stacking ever become a tragedy?
Dalrymple continues:
Snobbish disdain for such menial but productive activities could scarcely be more clearly implied than by the writer above; and it is precisely this disdain, rather than anything intrinsic in the task, that renders it humiliating.
Right on! I didn't really have any opportunity for college -- no money and the need to get the hell out of my abusive mother's house -- but I didn't have any real desire to go either.
I got my secretarial skills in high school and I wanted to be a secretary since 7th grade when I helped out the secretary in the school guidance office and enjoyed the work. Am I ever going to get rich? Hell, no. But I make a decent living and am looking at a decent pension in less than five years. I may go beyond this, may not. Depends on my health and other factors like the cost of living five years from now and how much I still enjoy working. I'm getting more impatient with the bullshit, like office politics, that go along with working rather than the work itself as I get older. I may partially retire since I can collect my pension and still work part-time.
If I were younger, I might seek an additional skill simply because of the computer takeover I've seen in my 30+ years at this career. Where we used to have half a dozen secretaries, we now have one. I know shorthand and can take 100 wpm but it's an obsolete, unmarketable skill. If I were to seek it, it'd be something to do with computers, however, because I love them just as much as I enjoy writing as fast as someone talks.
I'm looking forward to retirement but that's after a long career with it's ups and downs but overall very satisfactory. I don't regret not going to college because I've never really wanted the responsibility of a higher-paying job and have been willing to make less to avoid it. I work to live; not live to work, and if your work is making you well-to-do, your work should be your passion. Yes, it's been a struggle financially at times; particularly, when I was raising a child alone but it's been worth it to avoid working 60 hour weeks and supervising as well as decision making headaches those higher up the ladder are paid to make. I'm pretty happy with that decision and having been able to spend more time with my daughter (and now my grandson too) because of it.
That article made no sense. Having a baby at 17 is a decision to avoid stocking shelves? Umm, no. You're more likely to find yourself doing just that.
T's Grammy at July 16, 2008 5:57 AM
Well said, T's Grammy.
Supermarket shelf stacking is, however, not the most wonderful illustration of noble-but-snobbishly disdained employment.
I'm surprised at Dalrymple (I'm generally a fan) selecting such a feeble example of a job that is "humiliating" only because that's the way it's perceived.
If shelf stacking is your only option after all your years at school, I don't expect you to feel forever placidly content!
Jody Tresidder at July 16, 2008 6:40 AM
Hey, good timing. I just massaged a patient yesterday who installs water-softeners for a living, who was at a woman's house installing a water-softener. The woman addressed her young children, referring to my patient, and said, "See? This is what you get when you don't go to college."
The man actually has several degrees, and used them. He simply got tired of what he was doing and went and did something else. What's so wrong with that?
And blue collar workers seem to do pretty well for themselves. After all, white collar types seem to be willing to pay through the nose to have someone else come in and do their plumbing, electric, painting, fencing, siding, even pool-cleaning, etc.
Patrick at July 16, 2008 6:49 AM
Ugh. I saw the name Dalrymple and I thought, "Oh, good God. Don't tell me that the petty opportunistic soi-disant fisherman who was there when Elian Gonzalez was pulled out of the water has actually capitalized on his 15 minutes of undeserved fame."
Thankfully, that was Donato Dalrymple, not Theodore.
Patrick at July 16, 2008 6:56 AM
Jody, it's not that we live in a terrifically demanding culture, it's that we live on a terrifically demanding planet. You can't fault high school (or whatever the baseline education is) for not preparing people for careers. It ain't a policy problem. The best people never stop growing, period.
What would be a less- "feeble example of a job that is 'humiliating' only because that's the way it's perceived"? It doesn't seem so feeble to me... People are oblivious to the human dimension of their surroundings. They think grocery stores are stocked by the hand of God overnight.
This Indymac thing in the Valley is pissing me off. We see streams of nimbus-brained investors (under $50,000) streaming to the bank to pull their perfectly insured money out. They don't trust them high-falutin' financiers.... Though if the Fed defaults on your bank insurance, you've got bigger problems than the loss of your account.
Point being [again]: We are more interdependent than ever before, exploiting more talents from more corners of society than ever before. .. And yet human nature compels each of us to believe ourselves to be the independent superhero in a world that doesn't care.
(Good one, huh? Thanks, I'm here all week. Thank you. No. Thanks very much... Try the veal!)
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at July 16, 2008 7:00 AM
Crid,
I don't think I'm arguing with you.
(And I loved Patrick's comment).
Here's where Dalrymple goes wrong.
He wrote: "Snobbish disdain for such menial but productive activities could scarcely be more clearly implied than by the writer above."
My pert rewrite?
"Snobbish approval for such menial but productive activities could scarcely be more clearly implied than by Dalrymple."
We know damn well neither God, nor magic elves restock grocery stores at night.
So let's not pretend we assume those who have to do these jobs are deriving 'umble but honest, salt-of-the-earth satisfaction from them either!
Jody Tresidder at July 16, 2008 7:20 AM
Through high school and part of college, I worked with my dad, fabricating generator coils and general repair of electrical generators. His feeling was that I should get through college, and be able to work in an air-conditioned office rather than in a hot and dirty machine shop. BUT, if that didn't work, I'd have years of experience with good trade skills (welding, machining, etc) to fall back on.
Due to having used computers since I was 8, I ended up working as a computer geek long before I bothered to finish my degree (which seemed more a formality than anything, and didn't contribute to my career one bit). If I ever get tired of the computer analyst role, I can always fall back to machining, or go back to school for a little while and get a job as a lab tech or in teaching.
It's always nice to have options.
And working blue collar certainly gives you a healthy perspective when working white collar. You are far less likely to complain about the air-conditioning in the office not being "just so" if you've previously worked in 95+ degrees - in a poorly ventilated warehouse - while wearing a PVC suit and using a rosebud propane torch to solder copper. :)
Jamie (SMS) at July 16, 2008 7:27 AM
"though by low-paid in the modern context, be it remembered, we do not mean starvation wages" Yes but we also don't not mean middle class either. You want a low stress job with low pay and are happy by all means go a head. I have nothing but respect for those that enjoy a simple life style. I get resentful when labor expects to get a middle class life style with little or no skills or education (skills do not require education). If you happy stocking shelves then go ahead but don't resent me for my success and accuse me of balancing my check book on the backs of the poor.
vlad at July 16, 2008 7:54 AM
"If you happy stocking shelves then go ahead but don't resent me for my success and accuse me of balancing my check book on the backs of the poor."
It sounds like you might have skilled labor confused with unskilled labor. There's a world of difference between shelf-stocking (which requires no vocational training), and a welder (which requires vocational training or at least a lot of experience to do well).
A skilled welder, HVAC technician, plumber, or machinist can make a very nice wage. And yes they can easily bring home similar pay to what they might get working in the business world with a bachelor's in engineering - for example.
Jamie (SMS) at July 16, 2008 8:07 AM
Jamie, I think vlad was talking about something else. The model in my head for what he was talking about is the UAW, which long ago promised its membership that it would achieve getting solid middle-class wages for unskilled labor. And for a while it succeeded in doing so. But now that piper is demanding to be paid.
But Jamie is absolutely right about labor. Everyone talks about how hourly-wage jobs are disappearing. Truth is, what's disappearing is jobs for unskilled labor. Automation and the computer revolution are wiping those jobs out in the manufacturing sector (they're still surviving in the service sector, but I'm guessing that won't last much longer). On the other hand, skilled and semi-skilled labor is very much in demand in most parts of the country. (There's an unbelivable shortage of good electricians, plumbers, and finish carpenters where I live. I know because I've tried to hire them!) And the shame of it is, many of the people in these vocations really don't have the skills. This is one place where the school system is failing.
Last year, I called a friend who has been in the HVAC buisness here for decades to check out my system. In the city's HVAC technician licensing system, he holds license #1. Although I've known him for a while, I've never seen him work before. He came in, I told him what the system was doing (freezing up a lot), he ran it and listened for a few minutes, then he hooked up his gauge set and a cylinder of R134a. And then he did something that amazed me: he turned on the valve on the R134a, and without looking to the gauges, he let gas flow into the system. As the gas flowed, he listened and touched the plumbing and the top of the compressor. Eventually he turned the valve off, and finally he looked at the gauges, and they were dead on. Old school! The point is, he had a very deep understanding of how the system worked and what it should be doing under different circumstances, such that he could tell if it was behaving right just by using his primary senses directly. A lot of other HVAC techs I've seen, by comparison, are just reading from a script. Because they really aren't educated on how the systems work, then if it doesn't behave according to the script, they're lost. (At which point, they merely say, "You need a new unit.")
Cousin Dave at July 16, 2008 8:58 AM
Well said, Jamie (SMS). There is a difference between unskilled menial labor and skilled manual labor. And too often people think the only alternative to college is unskilled labor.
What's more, that shelf stocker may be providing more actual benefit to society than the ambulance-chasing lawyer looking for the lawsuit that will make him rich, the "gotcha" journalist, the education major building a school system more interested in graduating kids than in teaching them, or a host of other "smart" college graduates out there.
And, with unionized grocery stores, he may be making a better living than you think.
Conan the Grammarian at July 16, 2008 9:05 AM
"What's more, that shelf stocker may be providing more actual benefit to society than the ambulance-chasing lawyer looking for the lawsuit that will make him rich..."
You can't bank the warm approval of the chattering classes for the "actual benefit" you provide society, Conan!
Around here - in NY - you get under $10 an hour for unskilled supermarket work. It's not much better than you'd think, on the whole.
Jody Tresidder at July 16, 2008 9:18 AM
Another issue with going to college right out of high school is that most of those students have no idea why they are even there.
Are you going to college to get a degree that you will use in your job? If so, how do you know that's what you want to do for a living until you've tried it?
Are you going to college to study something for fun? Nothing wrong with that, but it makes for an awfully expensive four-year vacation when you come out thousands of dollars in hock.
Are you going to college because you don't know what else to do, or because you think you'll end up living in a van down by the river if you don't get a college degree in something?
The whole environment has become a silly "rite of passage" that seems to perpetuate adolescence and delay adulthood for middle class teenagers. I'm a big fan of partying ... after I put in a productive day at work and pay my bills, thank you very much. And I can party like a civilized person, with people of different ages, and don't require a beer bong. At 18, you should really be able to live as an adult without the supervision of a Resident Assistant, shouldn't you?
I think a lot of these students would be better off, not skipping post-high school education altogether, but attaining it more gradually, while living independently (even if that means with roommates), holding down a job, paying bills, and learning to make their own decisions. Most of them need to get out from under the thumbs of their Baby Boomer, helicopter parents, too.
If you are going to head straight out of high school and into life as a full-time university student, you'll probably still have your parents holding your financial dependence over your head like an axe. Be prepared to have them threaten the future of your education over issues such as tattoos, body piercings, their approval of your significant other, and their approval of who you choose as roommates. If you're 18, you should be making these decisions on your own, and need to establish some independence.
Pirate Jo at July 16, 2008 9:23 AM
what's with the way we look down on people in workaday jobs?
Hey, that's how Karl Marx got started...
The Mad Hungarian at July 16, 2008 9:35 AM
The society which scorns excellence in plumbing as a humble activity and tolerates shoddiness in philosophy because it is an exalted activity will have neither good plumbing nor good philosophy: neither its pipes nor its theories will hold water. -- John William Gardner, Secretary of HEW under Lyndon Johnson
Tom Wagner at July 16, 2008 9:49 AM
During the 1950's, I attended a public school in rural western New York, (Barker Central). At that time, Barker had a 100 plus acre school farm for students who would go on to run family farms, a school airport and aeronautics shop for students who's interests were so inclined, a mechanics shop with over $1,000,000 worth of equipment for those wishing to go on to work in industry or automotive repair, and a carpentry program. All this in addition to the "normal" Regents program directed toward college entrance.
I believe this came about because both the administration and the community implicitly recognized two things: 1) That not all students desire or are necessarily mentally capable of achieving a college degree; and 2) With proper training in the field of their choice, nearly every student could go on to lead a productive and rewarding life. What was true in the fifties is still true today, or would be if we gave it a chance.
PS. In addition to the above, it might be noted that the "sit down" type band from Barker Central was so good it was selected as one of, if not the very first, U.S. representative in the cultural exchange program with the Soviet Union. Not bad for a hick school out in the middle of nowhere with no more than 1,500 to 2,000 or so students.
Dave at July 16, 2008 9:59 AM
Jode-a-saures, sometimes I feel weird about harshing you so specifically. But then I realize you're the only one who says such wackazoid things... You just never, ever disappoint. To wit:
> let's not pretend we assume those
> who have to do these jobs are
> deriving 'umble but honest, salt-
> of-the-earth satisfaction
This is precisely, exactly Dalrymple's point. You're napping in his gunsights.
People who've been to a college graduation or two tend to get all moist and runny when the commencement speaker says "Do something you love, and you'll never work a day in your life!" It's a bullshit lie, of course-- a little apertif of "perk" offered on an afternoon of inebriating sentiment.
But it allows the crowd to feel sorry for the poor saps in the grocery, the construction crew, or some other venture which they personally wouldn't want to be a part of, something lacking "satisfaction". Noblesse oblige then demands that the sorrows of these distant, imaginary toilers be attenuated with compassionate policies... Because after all, everyone would prefer to be a college-edjumicated wordsmith, or office troll, or middle-manager in retail. Right?
But people who really do work for a living aren't so interested in collecting empathy. They know that even when you're doing exactly what you want for a living, there are times when it just sucks out loud... Especially when you're doing it well. It always stings when you're near the honey, etc.
Tomorrow's always a school day for everybody. whether they're in college or not.
Crid at July 16, 2008 10:09 AM
"what's with the way we look down on people in workaday jobs?
Hey, that's how Karl Marx got started..."
It's not just looking down at "workaday jobs", but over-valuing the Bachelor's degree. I work with so many people in the business sector whose degree has nothing to do with what they do. Sociology degrees programming computers, Ceramic Engineers setting up servers, History majors working in marketing... And so on. Yet there are managers that have NO interest in hiring you - even if you have real-world experience, unless you have a B.S. degree (or b.a., but that's not as funny). And in a lot of cases, it just proved that you racked up some debt and sat through some classes that you've already forgot about.
When helping my manager interview prospective employees, I asked her what her criteria were. One of the first she said was "college degree." I asked does it have to be relevant to the job? "Nope." Why? "It's just important to have." Eh?
After that, I concluded that she was SO proud of her degree and didn't want it undervalued that she put that factor at the top of her list.
To me, unless it's a fairly focused degree or relevant to the job (like an electrical engineer working for a power plant), the bachelor's is relatively irrelevant. I feel differently about a Master's or Phd, since those usually require a lot more work and research than just breezing through some classes.
Jamie (SMS) at July 16, 2008 10:12 AM
You suggest rightly that "Not Everybody Should Go To College".
I'll go further and say that most people do not need college, not in its packaged form for granting degrees. A combination of misguided law, social habit, and elitism has entrenched a "college education" as the primary path to success.
See my post at College Is An Expensive IQ Test.
Andrew Garland at July 16, 2008 10:18 AM
The link for "College is an Expensive IQ Test" is http://easyopinions.blogspot.com/2008/07/college-is-expensive-iq-test.html
Andrew Garland at July 16, 2008 10:22 AM
"It sounds like you might have skilled labor confused with unskilled labor." No the article talks specifically about unskilled labor.
"First is the assumption that there is something wrong, humiliating, even dishonorable about low-paid, unskilled labor"
I'm not comparing skilled labor like mechanic, machinist, HVAC, diver etc. with unskilled labor. Master plumbers, master electricians make a damn good wage but it takes apprenticeships to get there, and some schooling first.
vlad at July 16, 2008 10:30 AM
To benefit from college requires an IQ of 115 or better. Depending on the population group, from 1/3 to 1/10 can actually benefit from a 4 year college education.
In subsaharan Africa, the mean IQ is roughly 70 to 75. That means that much fewer than 1/10th of that population could succeed in a rigorous 4 year degree. Which may partially explain why Africa has such a leadership dearth.
Al Fin at July 16, 2008 10:38 AM
The young person with a BA in literature who is working at a coffe shop has become almost a cliche.
There are large companines that won't talk to anyone unless they have a BS or BA but they are also rotting from the inside out. They and the academic Education system has gotten so PC that young males are heading for small business or starting their own to avoid the stiffling bullshit.
Right now there is a shortage of watchmakers. If you meet the apptitude and attitude qualifications you can take a two year, 3000 hour course for only the cost of your tools which is about $2800, and your room and board. Starting pay, US avg was about $27000 based on 2006 statistics. Sit down job,inside, pretty clean, bennies if you work for a large chain. Beats working at Starbucks.
toad at July 16, 2008 10:40 AM
As I recall, it was me who recommended Dalrymple's book. But whatever.
Jeff at July 16, 2008 10:47 AM
Cousin Dave:
Your comment evoked the passage in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" where the old time welder repairs the narrator's chain guard.
Jack Okie at July 16, 2008 10:58 AM
(a) a short history of "degree inflation"
In Belgium in the old days, to be a bank teller, required 8-9 years of school (elementary plus junior high).
After WW II, the banks generally required a high school diploma.
As more and more kids got high school diploma's, banks started requiring "maturity certificates" (Belgian lingo for something like a French baccalaureate --- a university entrance requirement). High schools then started basically handing them out to all graduates, without the test or graduation project that used to be required.
Then banks started requiring the equivalent of what Americans call Associate's Degrees.
Now we're up to 4-year college degrees. And guess what: the level of relevant job knowledge did NOT necessarily go up by much.
(b) James Taranto in the WSJ pointed out that in most private sector hiring decisions, the BSc or BA requirement is a proxy for the intelligence or aptitude tests that American employers are no longer allowed to administer, because they allegedly discriminate against minorities.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB117945362625607139.html?mod=djemBestOfTheWeb
Former Belgian at July 16, 2008 11:00 AM
"This Indymac thing in the Valley is pissing me off. We see streams of nimbus-brained investors (under $50,000) streaming to the bank to pull their perfectly insured money out. "
Only certain types of deposits are insured, and only up to certain limits. Even if your funds are fully insured there's a question of when the FDIC will reimburse you - A promise of a check in the next 90 days isn't all that comforting if the rent is due Friday. So it's understandable that bank runs happen. If the regulators know their business these need not be catastrophic - they arrange for funds to be brought in to cover insured deposits, they issue notes against other nearby banks that aren't folding if there's not enough cash on hand, they limit how much you can withdraw per day, etc.
What gets nasty is when a lot of banks close at once, like happened in 1933. Then the system screeches to a halt and no one can access their funds until the banks reopen. One bank closing, no matter how large, is an inconvenience, not a disaster.
Orion at July 16, 2008 11:04 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2008/07/16/not_everybody_s.html#comment-1569566">comment from JeffSorry 'bout that, and thanks.
Amy Alkon at July 16, 2008 11:07 AM
But it allows the crowd to feel sorry for the poor saps in the grocery, the construction crew, or some other venture which they personally wouldn't want to be a part of, something lacking "satisfaction".
Back up buddy, I'm not that sort of lib'rul!
And, by the way, Crid only a moron would get weepy over a NY construction crew's lack of satisfaction! Guy at dinner recently was one of them - young dad, fireplug arms, great fun, loved his demanding, filthy work. He said Las Vegas was the only place even harder to get into construction without family contacts than NY!
Dalrymple wrote: "and it is precisely this disdain, rather than anything intrinsic in the task, that renders it humiliating."
So there are no unskilled jobs that are intrinsically crap?
I don't think I've made the mistake you think I have? (Though I may have bungled the way I said it!)
Jody Tresidder at July 16, 2008 11:07 AM
I have a 5-year Engineering degree, plus Professional accreditation since then. But I've NEVER thought of myself as better than anyone else because of it.
Sadly, this is clearly not the case with many other professionals I've met. I've found the most snobbish to be teachers and lawyers. My mom, who was a nurse, said she encountered many doctors of the same ilk.
Amongst all of these snobs, what's speaking volumes is their insecurity. Woe is them.
Robert W. at July 16, 2008 11:26 AM
Hmmm...I have my BA and two MAs...my first work experience was at age six picking cotton (my parent were migrant laborers) during Christmas vacation, I worked every summer from that point on. I've picked beans, tomatoes, by age 14 I ran my own work crew of adults and contracted with farmers to hoe beets; during high school I also worked after school. I worked as a school janitor and then a stock boy at a local five and dime.
The summer before heading off to college I spent working 12 hours shifts at a produce factory. During college I did the always popular work-study route, which by the way was mostly screw-off busy work.
I taught school, joined the military and went back to teaching. In between jobs I've worked at a hardware store, sold insurance, worked a season as a ski instructor. On the side, I've worked as a tennis instructor, ran & taught at my own martial arts school, opened and sold a video rental store.
I went on to become a school principal and tired of it after 5 years. I then worked as an educational consultant for 2 years then went to an international school to teach for one year. I came back to the states and have an written a travel book that is about to be published. Currently looking for something interesting to do.
I've been working my entire life; some menial and some professional work. Now at 54 I think that all work has dignity, that a college degree just proves that you can start and finish something, that you should give an honest day's work for an honest day's pay, that when you need money no job is beneath you. I approach every job with the attitude of "Whaddya want me to do? Because I can do anything." Sometimes I would like to tell interviewers "C'mon, a chimp could do this job, hire me and I'll give you a gorilla effort."
gsarcs at July 16, 2008 11:38 AM
T's Grammy: Wow, they sure educated people in high school way back when. That is a nicely composed post with complete sentences, though I do have to point out that "it's ups and downs" should be "its ups and downs."
Jack Okie: I love Pirsig's description of that old-time welder.
My advice to those from the lower class or lower-middle class who are contemplating college is to ignore majors like English or anything soft (especially anything that has the word "Studies" in it). Stick with hard and practical majors like engineering, accounting, or if your bent runs to the humanities, foreign languages.
JFP at July 16, 2008 11:40 AM
"So let's not pretend we assume those who have to do these jobs are deriving 'umble but honest, salt-of-the-earth satisfaction from them either!"
That wasn't the point at all. The point was that they don't deserve to be looked at from down the slope of some snob's nose.
For as long as I've lived in my home the same man has jumped off the bumper of the garbage truck every Wednesday to empty the cans in front of my house. He's a kind and gentle man and is not unhappy with his job. I've talked to him many times. What does ruin his day is someone who acts like they're going to get cooties by extending a simple "good morning" and "thank you".
J Milam at July 16, 2008 11:48 AM
> As I recall, it was me
> who recommended Dalrymple's
> book. But whatever.
Prolly so. But I cited Dalrymple years ago in the context of some forgotten post, so Amy gives me credit for everything he ever wrote. Which is cool.
> I'm not that sort of lib'rul!
And yet, you literally (and repeatedly) express disdain for the work.
> So there are no unskilled
> jobs that are intrinsically
> crap?
What's a "crap job"? Is there any such thing? A job that doesn't need to be done isn't a job. Changing diapers seems to me the quintessence of bad work, but mothers who do it all the time say it's worth doing right and not that big a deal anyway.
Again: People so eager to expression compassion with the executors of society's chores (as by expressing a librul's fascination with the particulars of their wages) want nothing so much as to establish their distance from them.
Radio Guy Prager's brother is apparently a respected heart surgeon in NYC; he frankly acknowledges concerns that the clumsy garbagemen who collect our weekly filth make a much greater contribution to human health than he could ever dream of.
Crid at July 16, 2008 11:50 AM
Bungled a couple things there... Slow day at work. I'm underpaid and underappreciated nonetheless. Love my work, love it to death.
Crid at July 16, 2008 11:52 AM
> Only certain types of deposits
> are insured, and only up to
> certain limits
All true, but the shitty, we're-all-fighting-for-ourselves coverage of the crisis can't be helping things.
Suzie Ormand (with others) says this is the time to keep your money wherever it's sitting, otherwise I'd give serous thought to moving something into Indymac Federal
Crid at July 16, 2008 12:08 PM
"What does ruin his day is someone who acts like they're going to get cooties by extending a simple "good morning" and "thank you"." Yeah I know how he feels. I was working as an Aquarium maintance tech after my BS. Most of the guys who worked for a living were quite pleasant but we had one customer. Oh, he was a nasty self agredising fucker, to top it all off the money was his wife's. He got his wealth through marriage. We had to use the servants toilets was just the start of it. The more onerous parts of working for him were to specific for me to mention without getting my old boss in trouble.
Have shit like that happen to you a couple of times and you try really hard not to look down on people who work for a living. This does not mean that I should have been making even a decent middle class salary at the time I had this job though.
vlad at July 16, 2008 12:09 PM
The lack of utility for formal post-secondary education for so many Americans not only reflects their innate ability.
It is as much, if not more, an indictment of both high schools and colleges, and the intensely detrimental influence of the public sector.
apetrelli at July 16, 2008 12:19 PM
My daughter went straight through college and lawschool, worked as an attorney for five years; but did not enjoy the particular type of "law" she was doing, got out, spent a couple years doing temp jobs, finally got into a good job with great benefits and makes about as much as she did as an attorney. Granted, she would not have this job without at least a bachelors degree, she's a bit underemployed with a JD.
My son, on the other hand, had a three-year course they offered at his high school in computer-aided-drafting. He now is Head Designer for a very unique company and makes big bucks. More than his sister with the JD. He wanted to go to college, but couldn't get a high enough score on the SAT. Go figure.
Both are very intelligent individuals, not married; don't want to be; don't want children. (Although it's the gene pool's loss!) And I stand behind them, whatever they choose!
mj at July 16, 2008 12:21 PM
What's a "crap job"? Is there any such thing?
Sub-contracted factory piece work?
I'd go on - but Crid - what's with the baby-changing example and the mothers who say it's "not a big deal" all of a sudden? Aren't we talking about salaried work?
Jody Tresidder at July 16, 2008 12:34 PM
Ever seen Mike Rowe's Dirty Jobs? Perhaps there's an underlying message that we need to feel sorry for them, but I don't get that. More just entertainment and a "Hey, I never even thought about the fact that someone had to do that." But, even on some of the less skilled, menial jobs, none of those guys seem horribly miserable to be in the job. Maybe its just the minute of fame?
moreta at July 16, 2008 12:40 PM
It's good work, if you can get it.
True. I was going to answer the first question with "living off the dole." But as you say, it's not a job because it doesn't need to be done.
Jeff at July 16, 2008 1:22 PM
Those are good jobs. They overcome the opportunity costs of lots of other jobs and competition for them is intense. These jobs are also pay for performance which gives a lot of people a flexibility they wouldn't have in other jobs.
Value is subjective. (Oh jeeesh, here comes the objectivist posse, and yes I used a lower case 'o' so piss off.) The mere fact that people choose piece-work jobs shows that they value it more than their other opportunities.
Shit is subjective. A shit job is valued less than every other job. Given the fact of human and circumstantial diversity, and given a large enough group of people, there are no shit jobs. There will always be people who will subjectively value the "shit" job more than other jobs. Thus in the aggregate, it isn't a shit job.
So, Judy, it's fine to talk of your shit jobs, but don't present that as an objective fact. It's your (perfectly valid) subjective valuation.
Jeff at July 16, 2008 1:35 PM
Well, really, work kind of HAS to suck, otherwise people wouldn't pay you to do it. I think there are maybe three people on the planet who would continue doing what they do for a living if they didn't need the money. For the other 6.3 billion of us, does it really make sense to define our "level of success" by our jobs, when we'd really rather not be doing them in the first place?
I haven't yet figured out a way to get paid to take naps, read books, play with my dog, ride my bike, or go on vacation. When people ask me what my dream vocation is, I say 'Trust Fund Brat.'
Pirate Jo at July 16, 2008 1:52 PM
Who is genuinely more offended by the shelf-stacker's labor? The laborer herself, or the culturally-Marxist third-party observer desperately looking to project people as "victims" of a supposedly "elitist" and exploiting unequal society?
I don't know anyone who actually looks down on that kind of labor. Yet I'm sure many of these laborers, who might not have otherwise considered it, could be steadily convinced that they are "victims" by promoting the Marxist agenda. And by promoting the same agenda, ordinary people like us also steadily become aware of our own supposedly higher status, and some feel guilty just for having a higher-paying job than someone else, and this too promotes the agenda and the polarisation of people who, without the fomenting, would probably have gotten along just fine otherwise. Anti-class-consciousness (note usually by wealthier not poor individuals) raises a stifling hyper-class-consciousness.
It seems to me sometimes that America indeed lost the Cold War. The spirit of communism has settled so thickly into our hearts and minds we cannot even see it anymore, it's the air we breathe.
In the old days, people would usually regard a job - any job - as an opportunity. A job is a gift; no rule of the universe dictates they must exist, they are created by others.
David J at July 16, 2008 2:01 PM
The smartest/best looking/most personable guy in my freshman class spent the first semester scouting around the city looking for under valued real estate. By the time we were sophomores he owned several rental properties and cut his classes back to one per week. By the time we were juniors, he was all but out of school and was driving a classic Porsche. By the time we graduated heavily in debt, he has a Penthouse downtown and (important at that age) a bevy of babes to keep him up all night, every night. I always wondered what I leaned in college that was preferable to all that.
Jake at July 16, 2008 2:22 PM
"I always wondered what I leaned in college that was preferable to all that." Well, why not learn from him. Just cause your taking courses doesn't mean that's the only learning you get to do.
Also he would have needed some capital to get the ball rolling. So if he took his college fund and rolled it into a real estate empire then good for him. I would have done the same given the opportunity. All you need is a few successful properties and the banks will be willing to extend you more credit to keep going.
vlad at July 16, 2008 2:38 PM
I dunno. We pay others to do a job because the money is worth less to us than doing the job ourselves. And I'm not sure people work for money either. Money, in itself, is just paper. You can die of starvation owning a lot of printed green paper. Money can be traded for goods, though.
It seems people work for what trades with money. Then, wealth isn't money but the things that can be traded for money.
There are many jobs that provide huge amounts of leisure. I met a guy early this summer who wrote copy for years. Now he does workshops and training gigs for four months each year. The work provides enough income for him to take the rest of the year off. For people who value leisure, there's jobs.
Personally, I don't value leisure much. I work all the time at something. I last went on holiday to Greece, and my girlfriend freaked out because I was working on topology proofs in the "down time" lazing at the beach.
It turns out that leisure is a subjective thing, too.
Jeff at July 16, 2008 2:50 PM
> I haven't yet figured out a
> way to get paid to take naps,
> read books, play with my dog
Guys, God in Heaven wants us to be capitalists... We're supposed to work hard for each other, and capitalism's the best way to make that happen.
> what's with the baby-
> changing example
Maybe not the perfect vector for the argument, but dirty diapers are what came to mind when you talked about jobs that are "intrinsically crap". Having work be pleasant isn't what makes it worthwhile.
> Sub-contracted factory piece work?
See, I don't want to do that either. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be permitted, it just means that people with the skills and interest to do something besides that will try to move on. I yoosta bus tables. I gave it up after the freshman year, but I still like to have it done when visiting a restaurant.....
Crid at July 16, 2008 3:54 PM
I don't regret my English degree at all. But then, I never saw college as a means of launching a career. I was the first person in my family to graduate from high school, and I had a fairly idealistic view of education. So much knowledge centered in one place was a big turn on for me. The very act of getting a formal education was a goal in and of itself. I may go back for an MA just because I still find it appealing.
Not saying you need a degree to be educated. I just like the formal nature of it and the sense of accomplishment at the end.
MonicaP at July 16, 2008 3:55 PM
I think it's important to remember that insufferable snobs come in a variety of types--ranging from the "consultants" with MA's in things like "critical queer studies" to the blue-collar macho types whose disdain for "book learnin'" in favor of the "College of Hard Knox" is well-known.
Jobs exist because there is a need for them. Just as you need the HVAC guy when your central air unit breaks down in mid-July in Phoenix, you need a real estate agent, a lawyer, a building inspector, an insurance agent, and a mortgage broker to buy the house in which it's located.
I come from a blue-collar background and was the first in my family to go on to college and grad school. I would never put anyone down for their choice, but I do think there are far too many college grads out there chasing too few jobs. Now that I'm at the end of my pathetic career myself, I can honestly admit that I would have been better off had I eschewed higher education and all its attendant PC crap.
See also http://www.bluecollarandproudofit.com
sestamibi at July 16, 2008 4:13 PM
> Posted by: sestamibi
?
crid at July 16, 2008 4:42 PM
"yoosta" - My New Word
Thanks, Crid.
Pirate Jo at July 16, 2008 5:25 PM
...Thus in the aggregate, it isn't a shit job.
So, Judy, it's fine to talk of your shit jobs, but don't present that as an objective fact. It's your (perfectly valid) subjective valuation.
Actually, Joff - I've done shit jobs that everyone around me considered shit too: so there was an aggregate of subjective opinions about the intrinsic shittiness of said very shitty job. The bosses were shit, some of the staff were somewhat beserk, and none of us particularly liked each other either. Whatever.
I don't get the precious squeamishness here about admitting some jobs are shit. I'm not devaluing the workers, the need for a job or encouraging anyone to, y'know, gob on people who don't have the keys to the executive bathroom! I'm not saying some jobs should be forbidden because they're shit.
Just that some jobs are shit.
Jody Tresidder at July 16, 2008 5:38 PM
Well, OK... But we still need 'em done, though. And as you and everyone else here seems to agree, we oughta be nice to the people who do 'em. And I think that includes not demeaning their efforts by saying "Nobody should have to do that..."
Somewhere along the line, in a book or a movie or a soap opera or Shakespeare, I was shown one of the rudest things that people do to each other. It happens a lot with cultures mix urgently, but it can happen at other times, too.
(Ask later about my lunch today in Koreatown... was going from one job to another[!], and that tofu restaurant was just sitting there...)
And that rude thing is when people make fun of someone's food. I think the basic human condition throughout prehistory was starvation. No matter how you were raised or what your life has been like, putting food in your mouth is likely to give you an emotional ccondition of gratitude, however shallow it may be. And if new army "buddies" or ethnic neighbors or anybody at all starts smirking at you when you're chewing, it's going to stir resentment quickly.
I think work is like that too. Capitalism isn't the natural way of doing things.... It works great, but it's artificial as hell, and delicately balanced. And saying that someone has a "shitty job", even with a heart you imagine to be compassionate, is going to interfere with the comfort they can take from it.
Crid at July 16, 2008 6:14 PM
Sigh...Crid, that brings back memories of my rather unhappy childhood. My mother is a "healthfood" nut, and was before anybody else really got into it, especially in Michigan. She essentially sent me to school with a shit sandwich every day...some mashed goop or some vile slab of something or other between hard whole wheat bread. Or maybe a thermos with whole wheat ravioli, which was at least semi-edible. Kids were horrible to me. Throughout elementary school, one of my most fervent desires was to go to school for just one day with an American cheese sandwich on white bread and a Twinkie.
Amy Alkon at July 16, 2008 7:28 PM
You are right, especially from my POV. I did not finish college, I make just shy of six figures, I just had my first interview for a new job to make 150k (I think I will get the job), and I reenrolled at a university awhile back / am a full time student... the main points being, I did fine without college and I can see [right now] what complete nonsense college is. I'm taking a 400 level sociology class and it is complete leftist garbage wrapped up as social science. Old Soviet agitprop antiwestern memes… and I’m paying to have them pushed on me!.. what a racket..
thomass at July 16, 2008 9:11 PM
Just for comparison to the American system, where vocation education has been phased out: here in Switzerland the trade-system still functions. The public school system splits the kids by academic ability rather early (though kids in the wrong track can switch later). I don't have statistics handy, but more than half go into the apprenticeship system.
From the age of 16 they leave the full-time school track and work as apprentices with schooling on the side. Three years down the track they are qualified in a trade. Construction workers, computer technicians, office clerks, even sales people in shops follow this system. There is virtually no place for "unskilled" labor - there is a training program for almost everything.
There are benefits all around. The kids get training in what they're going to do, the companies get three years of inexpensive work (and hence don't mind taking the kids on untrained), and as a consumer: wow, the quality of work by the average tradesman is just astounding.
bradley13 at July 16, 2008 11:49 PM
Exactly, Vlad. I like a simple life and since I do working as a secretary is adequate to support my lifestyle.
I have no real desire to travel and am rather a homebody who doesn't go out much and much of what I do is free or only a few dollars. I am a geek who perfers museums, libraries and parks to nightclubs. Nightclubs bore me. I liked discos when I was young but they got old before I was 30 and pre-child I could afford them since I only liked going out on the weekends. And, honestly, I might talk grand about big houses but I'm far more comfortable in a cozy little one bedroom or even a studio apartment. If I did buy, it'd be a small cottage, I'm sure. Even if I won the lotto or something, at most, it'd be big enough for me, my daughter and grandson. Meaning the largest I'd buy is 3 bedroom and 2 bath. Enough yard for a small garden. Not no big mansion, not even a McMansion. Small and cozy is not only snugger but less to take care of and less walking on my bad knees and feet. I don't drive so have no transportation expense beyond a monthly bus pass. As frustrating as the buses can be, I've been glad more times than not that I don't drive. Aside from the expense of a vehicle, I don't have to deal with parking, tickets, snow removal, etc. And since I prefer living in the city, a car is not a necessity.
I do not relish the thought of trying to work when I am old and have been mindful of health care expenses so benefits rather than cash up front have always been a bigger priority than cash. I also hate job hunting so job stability is important to me. This makes civil service my best option and I am comfortable in that. (No bad jokes, please, people.) I am glad that I've chosen to work where there's a good pension plan now that Social Security is in question. My income will be somewhat lower but adequate. If Social Security doesn't go under, at 62, I will actually bring home more between it and my state pension than I do working.
Honestly, the video games are my biggest expense and I buy them second hand. We have EB Games here, a chain that sells new and used quite reasonably and the used seem to be in good condition.
So, yeah, if you have to have the latest fashion trends, like to travel, like fancy cars and big homes, like to go out a lot, choosing to make less to avoid bigger responsibilities on the job is not a wise choice. It works for me because I'm happy with very little, happier than I would be with too much.
On the other hand, I'm with Pirate Jo. If I had enough money, I'd be very happy not to work at all. It wouldn't even have to be very much. Especially now that I'm vested in that pension plan and would still receive it in five years.
As for this David J: "Anti-class-consciousness (note usually by wealthier not poor individuals) raises a stifling hyper-class-consciousness." I respectfully disagree. I've been around poor people all my life and they are as snobby towards rich people as rich people are to them. Once again, people are all alike.
T's Grammy at July 17, 2008 6:37 AM
> I haven't yet figured out a
> way to get paid to take naps,
> read books, play with my dog
PJ, I've figured out how to do it and it's everything you hope it would be.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at July 17, 2008 10:09 AM
Amy - You didn't miss anything with the Twinkies. While those of us who ate junk food will be dropping with cancer and other, slow-onset diseases, you'll still be dancing across gay Paree.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at July 17, 2008 10:41 AM
I've come to realize that most of our problems do come from snobbism. This is why the arts are in the condition they are in, with the distain for beauty. Regular people like beauty, so the elitist art critics certainly cannot. In fact, they spend a lot of time telling the ignorant rubes why they're so unsophisticated as to not be able to get why one should want to go see a pickled shark. Snobbery also pushed countries to adopt laws their cultures are not ready for, as they have not reached the complexity of the West yet. The result is to create worse problems (passing anti-child-labor laws does get the kids out of the factories, but drives them into the brothels). Get rid of snobbery, and most social problems would go away.
Troy Camplin at July 17, 2008 11:16 AM
My college and post-college degrees have cost me unimaginable money, and not raised my earning potential one iota. I wasn't practical in my major, obviously. And I did enjoy the learning. And I really enjoy being a stay at home mom, so my particular earning potential isn't a big issue right now. But it's not for everyone. As Bill O'Reilly says in one of his books (I find myself agreeing with the man on more and more topics as I age) "...Why don't you congratulate the guy with his face on the 'worker of the month" plaque at McDonalds, instead of smirking that he only works at McDonalds? Let's praise those who actually care about doing a good job, whatever the job may be. They are needed." or something similar.
If a person doesn't just love learning for learning's sake (some do, there are people with multiple doctorates out there, for fun, not money) and doesn't have a clearly defined purpose in going to college, then maybe it's not the time for college. Maybe it won't ever be. That's ok, unless we want to start requiring college degrees to work at wal-mart. And I'd like to see a wal-mart employee make the kind of student loan payments I have to send off each month.
momof3 at July 17, 2008 12:03 PM
> Get rid of snobbery, and most
> social problems would go away.
I agree with Troy... Many of our problems, if not most of them. This is one of the few reasons to defend religion: The best faiths demand humility, in word if not deed.
A couple years ago there was a book about snobbery that I didn't like very much. This isn't meant to be ironic, but the guy was too much of a snob to be any fun to read. (Snobbery is mostly about creating extra distance between yourself and others, so maybe writing perceptively about the interpersonal consequences of it is impossible.)
I will now reproduce its best paragraph, saving you hours of boredom. Enjoy.
| The philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein
| makes a distinction between taste
| and originality. "Taste," he writes,
| "can be charming but not gripping."
| Taste, in his view, "is refinement of
| sensitivity: but sensitivity does not
| do anything, it is purely
| receptive." He believed that "a great
| creator has no need of taste; his
| child is born into the world fully
| formed." (Shakespeare, when you
| think about it, was weak in the the
| line of taste... thank God.) Taste
| refines and polishes, but creates
| nothing.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at July 17, 2008 1:24 PM
| The philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein
| makes a distinction between taste
| and originality.
Well I guess that makes sense, Crid.
But was anyone but Ludwig all that confused about the distinction between taste and originality in the first place?
Jody Tresidder at July 17, 2008 4:43 PM
Funny you should ask. You cling so tightly to the certainty of your taste ("some jobs are shit")... Even after you've repeatedly declined to tell us what consequences (useful or otherwise) this certainty of yours brings to matters, you simply won't stand down the point.
People who mop shit up, even for little financial reward, are moving the human process forward... In Wittgenstein's terms, they're "doing" something. But people who stand around saying "you have a shitty job" don't.
Clear? Cool. I have other speculations about you and Mr. Witt, so be sure and speak up if there are any more questions.
Crid at July 17, 2008 5:05 PM
Crid,
You're back on the bum-wiping again!
>>People who mop shit up, even for little financial reward, are moving the human process forward... In Wittgenstein's terms, they're "doing" something. But people who stand around saying "you have a shitty job" don't.
I haven't uttered a critical syllable about jobs involving bum-wiping! Are you nuts?
If you're trying to wring something from Wittgenstein's pretty drawing room argument about taste versus originality that applies to your bum-wiping/shit-mopping hobbyhorse, I rather think you must be!
Jody Tresidder at July 18, 2008 5:16 AM
It was metaphorical. Almost every job along these lines is a washing, whether it's mopping floors in Kansas City or crime scene cleanup in Appalachia or marriage counseling in the Hamptons. Some first condition of order has to be brought to chaos, and then other people can move in and make more money.
> I haven't uttered a critical
> syllable about jobs involving...
You haven't uttered a critical syllable about anything specific. Remember Tom Cruise in Jerry Mcguire? Help me help you... List a few jobs that you think are "intrinsically crap". If it's a busy day just list one...
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at July 18, 2008 6:18 AM
Well said, Troy.
Crid, I have to give you credit for reading that whole book. Just the one paragraph you posted was numbing my brain.
However, I think what Jody meant by some jobs are just crap is that it sucks to do them for a living -- not that they weren't beneficial to society. In that sense, there's always gonna be crap jobs that are indeed not only useful to society but extremely necessary and there's always gonna be people desperate enough to do them. Doesn't mean they're not decent jobs and they don't take pride when they do it well but that the work sucks.
You think anyone enjoys scrubbing toilets for a living? I work in maintenance/building management and I work closely with our custodial staff. They are glad to have a decent job and they do a good job and are proud of it but it doesn't mean it'd be their first choice if they had had more options.
If you're still not getting it, please, give Jim Croce's "Working at the Car Wash Blues" a listen.
T's Grammy at July 18, 2008 7:00 AM
>>However, I think what Jody meant by some jobs are just crap is that it sucks to do them for a living -- not that they weren't beneficial to society.
Not only that, T's Grammy!
There are jobs that make you yearn for even the minimal contact you get with joe public (which, say, a justly proud janitor gets) - or some sense that you've leaving your tiny corner of the planet at least temporarily in cleaner shape!
Crid,
You know perfectly well this - >>"You haven't uttered a critical syllable about anything specific"- is an empty retort!
You even directly quoted back at me my own yesterday lunchtime example >> "Sub-contracted factory piece work?"!!
Just one example of a shit job I've done myself in a dingy warehouse ad hoc assembly line with other wildly miserable souls which no vapid white collar mumblings about "moving the human process forward" can redeem.
As for this metaphorical shit mopping!
I don't know what you're going on about!
Unless you're trying to pull a Bill O'Reilly (sorry, momof3, the guy is not to my "taste!").
So that when I comment "some jobs are shit", you bluster back absurdly: "How DARE you insult the poorly paid angel who helps my incontinent, bed ridden, blind great aunt, who lost her husband in a Japanese POW camp, retain her last shreds of human dignity!!"
Jody Tresidder at July 18, 2008 7:31 AM
I always hated Croce. Didn't want him to die or anything, just hated the music. But I went to his widow's (daughter's?) restaurant in the Gaslamp District several years ago and had a sensational plate of huevos rancheros.
> I think what Jody meant by some
> jobs are just crap is that it sucks
> to do them for a living --
If she'd have said so in as many words, we coulda moved forward. But I think she broadly missed Dalrymple's core meaning.
> Just the one paragraph you
> posted was numbing my brain.
Care to say why? I can't believe others aren't as impressed with that Wittgenstein quote. I love it to death. It suggests all these ancillary insights....
"[Taste] is refinement of sensitivity: but sensitivity does not do anything, it is purely receptive."
When you think about people who are really famous for exquisite taste (or would like to be), almost none of them are also known for putting something fabulous into the world on their own. (Hello, Ms. Onassis!)
The closest exceptions are probably from the fashion world, but that's not the same thing... Fashion's propelled by seasonal and generational economics more than thoughtful refinement. Furthermore, in the high fashion clothing business, a lot of the guys are gay.... So “refinement of sensitivity” begins to seem like a particularly feminine --or “receptive”-- enterprise.
Listen, we all know people who are too defensive about their taste, especially when they're young. When you see someone like that, two things come to mind.
First, they're pretending that impulses and ignorance can protect them. It's like whistling in the dark, or how a religious person will dismiss tragedies by saying The Lord works in mysterious ways.” It's magical thinking.
Secondly, it begins to seem like they're backhandedlysignaling their naiveté by waving their 'taste' with talismanic pomposity. It's like they want you to know they got no game, so that maybe you won't fuck with them.
> Doesn't mean they're not decent
> jobs and they don't take pride
> when they do it well but that
> the work sucks.
Do you understand the contradiction in that sentence? If it's decent and you take pride in it, how can it “suck”?
> You think anyone enjoys
> scrubbing toilets for a living?
Who said anything about “enjoyment” or “first choices”? If I had my first choice, I'd drive the two blocks to Starbucks this morning in a new Ferrari. This is exactly the mistake Jody made earlier. She imagines telling people that their jobs are shitty (or at least, she thinks they should feel no shame in being told this.) She imagines this attitude reflects some precious clarity that we all share but only she dares express.
I think that what's actually happening is that the socializing forces of capitalism are so deeply entrenched that people don't even recognize when they work anymore. The social pressures we put on each other to achieve things are often cruel but productive. Keeping up with the Joneses creates a lot of very helpful economic activity. But you shouldn't pretend there's something handsomely clear-headed about being an asshole.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at July 18, 2008 8:04 AM
> you bluster back absurdly
Jody, read your comments. You repeated malign the work, which is the misconduct Dalrymple describes.
You're a capitalist robot. That's the best kind of robot, but it's spiritless nonetheless.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at July 18, 2008 8:06 AM
Talk about blowing your Cridibility [sic] with this one!
>>If I had my first choice, I'd drive the two blocks to Starbucks this morning in a new Ferrari. This is exactly the mistake Jody made earlier. She imagines telling people that their jobs are shitty (or at least, she thinks they should feel no shame in being told this.) She imagines this attitude reflects some precious clarity that we all share but only she dares express.
Driving to Starbucks? Whoa, such tinsel dreams, man!
I don't imagine ever telling anyone their jobs are shitty!
Any more, I trust, that you'd loftily remind a moping shelf stacker that she is making order out of chaos and ought to buck up and be jolly pleased about "moving the human process forward".
And I most can't even recognize the impulse to insist a person "should feel no shame" if I'd just come on to them like Lady McMuck Snot!
If I even have any precious clarity here, it's because you simply don't appear to know what you're talking about.
There is no contradiction whatsoever in performing well in a job you know totally sucks!
And the Wittgenstein quote?
It sucks more each time I read it!
Jody Tresidder at July 18, 2008 8:39 AM
>>Jody, read your comments. You repeated malign the work, which is the misconduct Dalrymple describes.
Oooh, I did, Crid. I did!
I've repeatedly, even wantonly, maligned some unskilled work I've done as the very depth of chronic suckability!
You're the one who sounds like an insufferable peon of the state employment agency here. Read your own comments.
Jody Tresidder at July 18, 2008 8:49 AM
cridcrid@gmail.com> you'd loftily remind a moping
> shelf stacker...
Jody, we don't have to remind anyone of anything... That's the beauty of it. The dignity of work is Dalrymple's lofty topic and I'm not bothered by abstract consideration of it, as you seem to be. Menial work gets done by two kinds of people.
First, menial work gets done by simple people, folks who have lesser natural gifts and diminished powers, who will be unlikely to learn from their experiences to perform in more challenging environments later. My mother retired several years ago and now works often at a community soup kitchen, and she sees this in her clientèle all the time. And they're well aware of what the problem is. She speaks movingly of one fellow in particular who talks about how he just isn't smart enough to move to better jobs... Much of his life working life had been dominated by some shrewish woman out in the hills of Indiana, illiterate herself perhaps, but clear-headed enough to keep him from sitting in a chair too long. (Since that friend had died, he needed to get lunch at the shelter.) These are people who deserve some compassion. Specifically, Jody, the work they do find should not be mocked as “shitty”.
Second, menial work gets done by young people, who might reasonably be expected to focus on moving into more challenging positions later. The reason young people don't get put in charge of international corporations is that young people are fucked in the head. Until they've mopped a few thousand floors or flipped a few thousand burgers, they really don't understand how little they have to offer in terms of salable skills. Not a problem... They'll learn to do things for others and move along and that's that. Meanwhile it's good to have some cheap labor kicking around. (And for these people, Jody, I don't much mind if you tell them their jobs are “crap”, even though it's an asshole thing for you to do. But don't expect that you'll be telling them something they don't know. )
Apparently your early days of light-manufacturing really maimed your psychographic infrastructure, such that now you only want to discuss this in terms of seething teenage resentment. Let us count the ways:
> If shelf stacking is your only
> option after all your years at
> school, I don't expect you to
> feel forever placidly content!
Who said it was the only option, and who said anyone should be placidly content? When you grew discontent at the factory, you chose other options, right?
> none of us particularly liked
> each other either.
Why on Earth would you? Why on Earth should you? Who cares?
> ad hoc assembly line with
> other wildly miserable souls
It's work, not a summer camp sing-along. What exactly do you want? Is the world supposed to be set up so that everyone you encounter is the chipper Bob Hope to your soulful Bing Crosby? Every woman's supposed to be the little sister who admired you for being about to reach the cereal shelf without a chair?
> no vapid white collar mumblings
> about "moving the human
> process forward" can redeem.
You weren't there for redemption, you were there for a check. I trust you were paid, and learned specifically what an hour of your time was worth. (I'd bet that's exactly what happened, and that it still hurts your feelings that the world didn't recognize the magnitude of your excellence during the rose-cheeked blossom of your young womanhood.)
> Whoa, such tinsel dreams
No, you should follow through on Grammy's forehand: Who said anything about “first choices”? She shares your reasoning; where the Hell does it come from?
> an insufferable peon of
> the state employment
> agency
Who cares about employment agencies? Another liberal reflex: 'If Daddy Government was really the nice man he claims to be, there'd be an office somewhere to tell me how my working life is supposed to go.'
That's very Euro of you. And Euro-weird: In the encounter you imagine, the "peon" is the one with state power (and employment). The royal Euroweenie is mocking the state functionary to whom he's come running for help.
But here, Stateside –-like nowhere else in the world-- we like to choose for ourselves what our working lives are going to be like.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at July 18, 2008 3:43 PM
Crid,
I don't really follow the bit about Bing Crosby?
But I'm delighted you've reversed yourself about feeling bad for people stuck with shitty jobs for various reasons!
Earlier (much earlier!) you mocked - then thundered!
>> "...Noblesse oblige then demands that the sorrows of these distant, imaginary toilers be attenuated with compassionate policies...But people who really do work for a living aren't so interested in collecting empathy."
And with your most recent lecture, you tell us:
>>menial work gets done by simple people, folks who have lesser natural gifts and diminished powers, who will be unlikely to learn from their experiences to perform in more challenging environments later.... These are people who deserve some compassion."
Yup, they DESERVE SOME COMPASSION!
You liberal, you!!
Jody Tresidder at July 18, 2008 8:31 PM
> the bit about Bing Crosby?
The world is not your own personal buddy film.
> you mocked - then thundered!
Where's the irony? The noblesse oblige is all yours.
Jody, your teenage shitty job wasn't a shitty job. You, the callow youth, were the weak element in chain, and the free movement of capitalist labor corrected your errors. It worked out perfectly for everyone.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at July 19, 2008 7:56 AM
Crid, you're such a snob! Go scrub some toilets, will you? After all, it's meaningful work.
Jody's point is that you are coming off like the rich elite telling those less lucky in life than you just how well off they are to be fortunate enough to be able to serve you.
I don't know if you realize this but that is exactly how you sound. She doesn't sound like she's looking down her nose at menial labor; you do.
You're the one with the it's-beneath-me-but-good-enough-for-some-people attitude.
T's Grammy at July 23, 2008 11:05 AM
No one has mentioned or might be that everyone everywhere chooses to ignore the fact that if minimum wage kept up with the cost of living it would be somewhere closing in on $20.00/hour! And many who make minimum wage do not get ANY benefits... ever think about that?
So anyone taking home fat salaries of $125/hour or more plus benefits... $250,000+/year, complaining about having to pay taxes, is certainly balancing their checkbook on the backs of those who are making a living on less than $50/hour with no benefits and providing the services consumed by everyone.
Next time you're at the grocery store, go up to the shelf stocker, palm a $20 bill into his or her hand and say thank you for doing a job that you wouldn't want to do.
And T's Grammy, I sincerely hope that you get the pension you're expecting... even though I got screwed out of mine ;-)
NorthernExposure at January 14, 2009 1:33 AM
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