Chris Rock On Cultural Differences
Via wikiquote, he does the shorthand version of Bill Cosby and Juan Williams on what's wrong with the black community:
Chinese people got dissed, they formed their own shit. Chinese people get dissed, it's like, "Fuck you ... Chinatown!" Okay?Italian people got dissed, they formed their own shit. Italian people get dissed, it's like, "Fuck you ... Little Italy!" All right?
I don't care what country you go into: you will not find Little Africa anywhere. What, the ghetto? Little burnt-up Africa?
When the railroad barons of the 19th century wanted to import Chinese laborers to help get the railways over the Sierra Nevada & the Rockies, a lot of people asked "what good are goddamn Chinks?". They replied "they built the Great Wall of China", which silenced the critics.
When Italian immigrants getting off the boats at Ellis Island were insulted, they could point with pride to the Renaissance & Da Vinci, Michelangelo & Marconi.
Sadly, I think Africans then & now might have a harder time thinking of things to brag about.
Martin at July 26, 2008 10:06 AM
1. If your comments reflect what you think Chris Rock was saying, you obviously didn't get the joke.
2. China and Italy are countries. Africa is CONTINENT with more than 50 countries. There would be no Little Africa, just like there is no Little Europe or Asiatown. Little Haiti is in Miami. I am happy for the Chinese, Haitians and Italians, and not mad there is no Little Jamaica, Nigeriatown, Little Egypt, South Africatown, etc.
3. Most importantly, if you think Africans/Blacks have a hard time thinking of things to brag about, you have missed a lot. I am a Black woman of Jamaican decent, and I can think of plenty of things to brag about. Please don’t feel sad for me.
Renee at July 26, 2008 1:11 PM
Consider this.
(I hate that opening music more everytime I hear it.)
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at July 26, 2008 3:00 PM
there is no Little Jamaica
There isn't? In any American or Canadian city? I'm a bit surprised; somehow it seems like there ought to be.
Rex Little at July 26, 2008 5:07 PM
Well, what is there for people to know and admire about any African country and its people?
If anything was out there, advocates would be going on and on about it. It isn't enough to claim the parallel or suppressed inventions of black scientists, or that Jesus had the tan.
Can you be proud of whence you came when you can't point to successes there? The Irish can; apparently all we can brag about is being smart enough to move when the potatoes died, and fighting the English is still a sore spot, but it isn't justification for any crimes in America.
But making the news repeatedly is crime after crime, both individual and governmental, with some form of the word "African" in it. One kleptocracy after another is fed by American aid of some kind or other. It's a damned shame, and one nobody can fix by pretending it ain't so!
Radwaste at July 26, 2008 5:21 PM
I want to be mad at some of these comments but at the same time I completely understand. How can I expect you to appreciate or even know about African culture and success if your not African or Black? Or because you feel sorry for us? I don't know much about the Irish except for what I see on TV, but I am sure an Irish person could talk for hours about it. The same goes for any other culture. I don't expect you to get it so that was not what I was asking you to do. I am saying don't tell me what I do or do not have pride and bragging rights to. You brag about your culture and I will brag about mine.
I am not oblivious to the problems going on in Africa, and I appreciate the news coverage that makes this information available. But I hardly believe that means everyone else is free of problems. No one is ignoring the problems in Africa but like I said before it is whole CONTINENT, not just a country and the problems are not going to be fixed overnight or even in a few nights. In spite of all its problems, Africa has a lot to be proud of. There are pyramids in Africa. If you own a diamond it probably came from Africa. Nelson Mandela was born in, a prisoner in, and a president in Africa. African slave labor helped build this country. Life probably began in Africa. Black Americans were brought to this country from Africa. There is Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan. Malcolm X and Martin Luther King. Sojourner Truth and George Washington Carver. Barak Obama and Thurgood Marshall.
In any case, I will say it again. You should be proud of where ever you are from, because I am proud of where I am from. I am proud of my people, what they have done, what they will do, what they have tried to do and what they hope to do. Rather than trying to put people down, why not try to help. Or focus on your own culture. I am sure there are a few issues you could look into.
Renee at July 26, 2008 6:17 PM
Rather than trying to put people down, why not try to help.
I do -- I started a program to demystify "making it" at an inner-city school. I speak once a month during the school year, and I'll be bringing in other speakers too, next year.
And you? What are you doing to help matters?
Let's be real: there are serious problems in the black community beyond what you see in other communities. Consider the percentage of blacks committing crimes and going to jail vis a vis their percentage in the population.
It's not a matter of being poor -- go to the link above to Cosby and Juan Williams and see how even poor Asian kids do in school.
Personally, what I admire are the values that came out of the Enlightenment -- mainly advanced by white guys. You won't find me trying to pretend there were equivalent women accomplishing things at the time. It's just ridiculous when women try to elevate Jane Austen and the like simply because they were women. And sure, Emilie du Chatelet did some amazing work translating and explaining Newton before she died in childbirth, but this is the exception, not the rule.
The fact is, most of the important discoveries that make our society what it is were made by men, and mostly white European dudes. To say so is not racist or sexist, simply truthful.
What I'm interested in, Renee, is what you think the problem is that leads to the issues described in the Cosby/Juan Williams link above. I was raised by Jewish parents (I now have no religion, and try to persuade people to use their capacity for reason). But, Jewish parents, like Asian parents, and even poor Jewish parents, push, push, push their children to succeed. To achieve, to become somebody. I have black friends who were similarly pushed by their parents, and who have achieved a great deal, against really tough odds, in some cases. But, again, there's a huge population of blacks in prison, and a culture of thuggery promoted in rap, etc., and numerous other problems detailed by Cosby, Juan Williams, Thomas Sowell and others.
I'd like to know what your analysis is.
Oh, and P.S. diamonds are just stuff stuck in the earth, and as for the pyramids in Egypt, well, those were kinda created a long time ago. Bringing those up to talk about black accomplishments is kind of like when Arabs talk about the abacus.
Meanwhile, I always wonder whether the cure for cancer (along with countless other scientific advances) died in the holocaust, and like thoughts. Not out of some provincialism or that rather rude notion of the Jews as "the chosen people" (what snotty crap), but because Jews, disproportionate to their number, tend to be people who are scientists, inventors, and people who work with their heads, not their hands. There's always been a valuing of knowledge in Jewish culture -- perhaps, it's speculated, because the Jews were always getting run out of someplace, and all they could take with them was what's in their heads. So Jews are the nerds of the world in disproportionate number vis a vis the percentage of Jews on the planet.
Here -- Jewish Nobel Laureates in physics, for example:
http://www.science.co.il/Nobel.asp?s=ch&sort=y&ord=z&cit=y
Year after year after year. And you'll find this in the other Nobel areas as well.
Amy Alkon at July 26, 2008 7:45 PM
Regarding the Irish, I'm not Irish but I can tell you this: they have a cultural tradition as poets, playwrights, and storytellers. James Joyce, Oscar Wilde, George Bernard Shaw, Sean O'Casey, Samuel Beckett. More recently, Jim Sheridan ("My Left Foot," "In The Name Of The Father," etc.) Oh, and one of my great favorites, Jonathan Swift, and his "Modest Proposal" (I like my children with a little butter and salt, thanks!).
Amy Alkon at July 26, 2008 7:50 PM
The Kingdom of Benin is pretty cool. Chicago has exhibits on it at the Field and Art museums right now.
Mogadishu was a big commerce center, though it eventually got invaded.
Egypt was powerful not just in the pyramid age, but up until the burning of the great library, which we can no longer see because it was, um, burned... and don't underestimate the ancients, either, they were important in the foundation of Western Civ. (The Greeks got their math from the Egyptians).
Did you skip High School or something? This is basic stuff... there is a lot of interesting history in Africa. We don't usually focus on it because it isn't our direct cultural ancestor.
I suppose there could be a pride/shame thing going on with some of the African cities, due to their role in the whole slave trade....
NicoleK at July 26, 2008 8:05 PM
... just wanted to add, since I didn't really come to any conclusion in my post above...
The problems of black Americans don't come from a lack of African achievement. Part of the problem could be, possibly, that the black people don't know where in Africa they came from, so can't point to the achievements of their particular cultures.
I think the cultural problems are more recent and reflect the particular circumstances that have happened since they were brought to America. First there was the abuse, now there is the pampering. People today essentially believe that black people are too stupid or lazy or otherwise incompetent to help themselves... much like the parents in the other thread who do their kids' dioramas for them.
NicoleK at July 26, 2008 8:11 PM
Since when is Egypt considered Africa?
They're an exception. Ask an Egyptian what s/he has in common with a Rwandan. So, few people know about Timbuktu's impact on gold prices ages ago. At the same time I lament the Eurocentrism of religious fundamentalism, I have to ask: what has any African nation done through the ages?
Yes, I know about the intellect and personal work ethic which drives success stories like Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan (trivia contest: name the sport MJ is in today, and Tiger's real name). Successful people from Africa would do well to call themselves Americans, with no hyphenation. Everything they are has come about from their residence here.
As geologists find out more about the continent, I'll be properly amazed to hear of the ruins of a great civilization somewhere in Africa. At the same time, there's no tie between the dockworker in Newark, the trucker in Charleston and Condoleeza Rice other than "victim" games revolving around who sold who to whom. And that's not really important, because it still goes on today in, guess where, Africa; getting dollars from government in the US is actually the only point.
Radwaste at July 26, 2008 8:54 PM
Amy -
On the Jews being disproportionately smart, or whatever. I've always believed that stemmed from the fact that Jews are the only culture in history that required its men -- each and every one of them -- to be able to read by age 13 in order to be bar mitvahed. There was never such a thing as an illiterate Jew. Plus it's a religion that, at many levels if not the most extreme, encourages adherents to question their faith and not blindly follow. Hence debating skills, which can be key to education.
Also, there's a difference between immigrants who have the wherewithal to get on airplanes and leave where they came from to start anew in America and people born into poverty here (and that's not to excuse crime rates or dropout rates or. . .) But many immigrants are EDUCATED immigrants -- teachers, professors, scientists, etc, in their own countries. They come here trained to learn and able to imagine bright futures. It's not the same set of circumstances, or the same start at all.
JulieA at July 26, 2008 9:46 PM
I think the problem in the black community is need. When you are hungry, overcrowded, surround by despair etc, education is hardly the thing to think about. I am the offspring of immigrant parents who pushed hard and sacrificed so much so that I may succeed. But this is what I think a lot of non-black people don’t get. Blacks are socialized different. From a very very young age we learn that no matter how much we try, most of us are only going to do slightly better than our parents. Everyone around us is saying we are not good enough. We aren’t going to make it. My mom constantly made me study, only for me to go to school and constantly be accused of cheating because I did well. Enrichment classes cost money, which we had very little. Sometimes we have to choose food over education. My parents did their best to hide their financial difficulties from me and my siblings. You know why? So that we wouldn’t want to get a job or some other means of supporting our family. Not every parent can do that. Sometimes the child sees the parent struggling and wants to help. Selling drugs pays a hell of lot more than selling burgers. I went to a very good boarding high school in NH and then got a full ride to a university. During this time I had to deal with my white male counterpart telling me that I "stole" the admission from his friend who didn't get in. I worked my ass off, probably more than he or his friend did, but somehow I don't deserve to be at "his" school and in "his" class. Now I am in grad school, and while my classmates are smarter and more PC than to say those things to me, I am still the only black person in most of my classes. When I am not the only, I am one of two. I don’t for a second believe that other blacks didn’t try as hard as I did. I think I slipped through a crack and got an opportunity that others did not.
I am happy for all the success that Cosby has had, but I don’t like him. He is forgetting that he made it through a small opening, that is not open to every equally as talented black person. For him to turn around and criticize, is for him to forget that he stepped on a lot of people's backs to get where he is. People, including the blacks that he now gripes after, supported him. I am proud of my success but I am not going to look at the single black mother living in the heart of the ghetto and think I am better than her. One more bad decision and I could have been her.
Poor Asians do well because they are given the opportunity to. People believe all Asian are geniuses and as a result they, even the poor ones, are given the opportunity to succeed. Blacks are not given that same opportunity. Even when we are smart, we constantly have to prove to every Tom Dick and Harry, that we achieved what we have because we are smart not because we are black, and there was a quota to fill.
I was a criminology major and studied a lot of black crime statistics. There is a big difference between blacks committing more offenses and blacks being arrested more. However since the only way to measure crime is through arrest records, those getting arrested more will account for more of the crime. Black neighborhoods are patrolled by police more often, and since their job is to stop crime, it is only reasonable to believe there would be a lot of arrests where there is a lot of patrol. If they patrolled your neighborhood like they did mine, I am sure they would make quite a few arrests there too. I am not for a second pretending black people don’t commit any crimes at all. Our communities are plagued with crimes that we commit against each other. But when you back people against a wall, put all the have nots in the same area, tell them that they are not going to make it, make it a remarkable feat for them to make it, what do you expect to happen? They are going to fight each other for what little there is. Black girls are going to think that the only thing they are good for is having babies. Black boys are going to think if they can’t play basketball or rap, they better learn how to sell drugs. You don’t think you can get yourself out of the hell that is your life. You believe either someone will help you out, or you are doomed. You go to these schools and contribute but then you leave their crime ridden neighborhood and go home. They are home. They are thankful I am sure, but only one or a few are listening to you. Most of them saw you, and think, what does she know? How could she know my life and think there is any hope? They trust who they see every day, who lives their life. The drug dealer who bought them a meal when they were hungry is a more valued role model than you. Its sad yes. But how sad it is doesn’t make it less true. The drug dealer isn’t hungry. The woman who had the drug dealer’s baby isn’t hungry. Why wouldn’t a young girl or boy want to be them? Especially when more than likely their parents are still children themselves.
I remember white people coming to my school, doing their duty to the black community telling me I can succeed and go to college. As hard as my parents were pushing me and I was studying, I ignored those speakers. Why? Because I already knew they didn’t know my struggle. I am not talking about my general struggle, like having to study or do really well on exams. My everyday struggle, like walking home, like getting there safely, like eating, like having the supplies I needed for school, like watching my siblings while my parents worked themselves to death to keep the lights on, like worrying when I get home the lights won’t be on. Kids worrying about money, housing, utilities, etc. Adult issues. You know who I did listen to? My neighbor’s daughter who would come by and hang out with me when she came home on college breaks. She knew my life. It was her life a few months prior. When she tells me I can do it then I can halfway believe her. So that’s my contribution. I have gone back to my old elementary school and given speeches. I was a high school junior when I was invited as the special guest speaker at my church. They wanted me to tell them how I did it. My mom and I took a few kids to my boarding school and showed them where they could be. One girl was accepted, attended and graduated. I don’t have a lot of money like Cosby, so I am sure while he can have a new wing built at one of his old schools, all I can do is try to talk to them, and keep doing well. I have to do well because I can’t imagine what it will do to my parents and siblings if I fail. I have felt this way since I was 10. Add that pressure to everything else. I am constantly walking on eggshells, fearful that even one little slip up will ruin my entire life and theirs. I don’t party, I rarely drink and graduating with anything less than magna cum laude would a complete failure. At times I have felt like giving up, like it wasn’t worth it, so I understand the people who did give up. I don’t think I am better than those who did give up, just like Cosby shouldn’t think he is better.
I am not blaming white people for the entire plight of black people, but I ask that you try and sympathize that you will never and can probably never understand the desperation and lack of hope for anything better in the black community. That is the truth. We aren’t asking you and Mr. Cosby for anything but a little support. Our communities do have problems, but telling us to suck it up and try, only proves to us that you have no clue.
What should rappers rap about? They rap about the black experience, more specifically their experience. I used to sell drugs, now I sell music. I used to be hungry now I can buy out the bar at any club. I used to steal people’s sneakers, now people pay me to wear their stuff. They are talking about what they know. Just because it isn’t a peachy story about happy love and good times doesn’t mean their music is valuable. HipHop is a multi-billion dollar industry and most black people are too broke to buy the CD from Virgin or download it from iTunes. Clearly someone else is also enjoying it.
You believe Jewish people may have or had the cure to cancer, which is great. You have pride and faith in your people, despite the fact that you don’t follow the religion and there are huge numbers of people who have not a single nice thing to say about Jewish people. Your pride is great and I have nothing bad to say about it. Why can you have pride about your people and I am not allowed to have pride in mine? How is that reasonable? Why should I hate who I am? Who my parents are, and who my children will be. No matter how many problems our communities and people have, I will always be proud to be one of them.
You can dig up your front yard and not find a single diamond. Thousands of people in Africa are digging in their front yards and finding diamonds. People spend tons of money to go visit the pyramids, not to go visit the first abacus. And if word got out that there was another pyramid under the desert sands of Africa, dozens of white men would be out in the sun with little fiberglass brushes trying to uncover my history. Why is it threatening to everyone that am proud of that?
PS. I have been reading and enjoying your column for a while now. I have never said anything but always enjoyed the comments and discussions. Never once did it cross my mind that you would ever personally address me. I am not lying or trying to flatter you or myself but even though I disagree with some of the things you said, I smiled when I saw my name. There I go again, through one of those little cracks.
Renee at July 26, 2008 10:08 PM
Gosh that was long... I must have more to say than I previously thought.
Renee (again) at July 26, 2008 10:13 PM
"I think the problem in the black community is need."
Yes, many needs, most of which can be met by the black community.
I read with interest last week that 42% of African immigrants to this country hold a college degree.
War-torn Africa is exporting college grads. Amazing.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at July 26, 2008 11:27 PM
Part of the problem could be, possibly, that the black people don't know where in Africa they came from, so can't point to the achievements of their particular cultures.
Oh, please. My great grandparents were chased around Russia by the Cossacks. My ancestors aren't "from" anywhere in particular, just wherever the chasing, murdering, and raping stopped and they sat down and took a rest. These days, we're American, and we focus on achievement in the now.
And don't talk to me about poor. My great grandfather, who came to this country speaking no English, picked up trash for a living in Detroit and sold metal scrap he found to recyclers, and managed to send my grandpa to college. Nobody gave him a handout -- although I know that Jews in this country had societies to help Jewish emigrants. And P.S. When I was still Jewish, I ran a program at my temple to create awareness and send money to the Falashas, the black Jews of Ethiopia.
Oh, and guess who's taking in a lot of black Muslims from Darfur: Israel, of course!
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2008/03/darfurs-muslims-flee-from-egypt-to.html
Where's the black community in America on that one? Helloooo? Is there an echo in here or what?
Amy Alkon at July 27, 2008 1:11 AM
Here's more - the absence of blacks speaking out on Darfur. It seems the problem now is...get this...persuading American blacks that it's not a Jewish issue!
http://jeffweintraub.blogspot.com/2006/04/darfur-mystery-joseph-britt.html
Amy Alkon at July 27, 2008 1:12 AM
Thanks, Renee, for reading me, and for commenting, although I disagree with you on a good bit of what you wrote, and think you cut blacks way too much slack.
My childhood was no bed of roses. I had no friends, and kids chased me around and called me dirty Jew.
But Asians don't have it easier because they have more money. Their parents push them, but more important, I'm guessing, they have intact families: There's a mommy and a daddy in the house. Fathers are exceptionally important to children's success, and I'd bet the shortest point between what's happened to the black community and the way things used to be is welfare payments to out-of-wedlock black mothers and the lack of shame within the black community at being a single mother, especially a mother on welfare or a teen mother.
And sure, maybe you make more money selling drugs than flipping burgers. This is a choice, and you need to be raised by your parents to make ethical choices.
Furthermore, I am no fan of affirmative action. My black friends are not where they are because they are dumb or lazy, and they are probably assumed to have gotten a leg up because of their skin color. I find affirmative action racist -- you don't solve discrimination by discriminating, and I don't care an iota whether somebody in a particular profession has black skin or not, just whether they're good. Oh, and they didn't let Jews into a lot of country clubs or work for big companies either, so Jews, like the Asians, became merchants.
Nobody has everything all peaches and cream. My parents told me I'd have to work harder because I was Jewish. What's wrong with black parents saying the same. Face reality if that is the reality: don't knuckle under to it and mewl that it's easier to sell crack on the corner than make minimum wage.
Amy Alkon at July 27, 2008 1:24 AM
I'm Latin American....but....
"How can I expect you to appreciate or even know about African culture and success if your not African or Black?"
Renee every Thanksgiving my stepfather sits us around the table and talks about the time he lived with Africans. I've been meaning to visit various parts of Africa one of these days, when time and money permit. In fact it's been a fascination for me. I've always had virtually no interest in visiting Europe. But....
Life is so good when you're walking down the streets of Nagano enjoying some mochi with one of your best friends. Two 100 lb girls chatting about cute guys, and doing this at midnight, with no fear of rape or torment. That's the goddness you find in Japan and Korea. Why is that? Is it because Asians have it easy? (Read Korean history and trust me they've never had it easy beeing looked down upon by both the Chinese and Japanese)
"Poor Asians do well because they are given the opportunity to. People believe all Asian are geniuses and as a result they, even the poor ones, are given the opportunity to succeed"
I think this is a serious statement the belittles your understanding of the Asian American community. If anything intellectuals are seen poorly in our society. Nobody hands Asians anything. Asian parents push their children to succeed. And I've yet to hear a Japanese American speak that they've little success in life because of the whole interment thing where everything was taken away from them.
Remember I'm neither white nor Asian.
Purplepen at July 27, 2008 2:04 AM
Regarding that ridiculous comment about Asians, and how people believe they are all geniuses, I went to high school with two black girls who were twins. They were smart girls and looked, acted, and conducted themselves like smart girls, and worked hard in school and got good grades, far as I can recall. And, not surprisingly, people looked at them as smart girls.
Amy Alkon at July 27, 2008 2:35 AM
True story -
When I was at university (college of engineering), there was precisely one black student. He spent every spare moment studying or doing coursework while most of us were goofing off. Needless to say, he carried a 4.0 GPA.
I once asked him why he busted his ass to carry that 4.0 - his reply?
"Because I have to be twice as good as you to be considered half as good as you."
And this was in 1995.
I don't know where he got that impression (engineering is quite color, race, and gender blind) but that it persisted then (and probably even now) is troublesome.
brian at July 27, 2008 5:32 AM
Clarification - one black student in the college of engineering.
And in my particular coursework (computer engineering), there were two women. Two. And it's not like women weren't allowed, there were three Jennifers alone between the civil and mechanical engineering programs.
I suppose it's the patriarchy.
brian at July 27, 2008 5:34 AM
" If they patrolled your neighborhood like they did mine, I am sure they would make quite a few arrests there too. "
Uh, no. Because no other ethnicity is literally raised from birth to believe it's ok to commit crimes, because "selling drugs pays a hell of a lot more than flipping burgers". And if you really think the percentage of murders committed by blacks (50% or so!) would be less if non-black neughborhoods were patrolled more, then you're really dumb. Is it possible a few more white kids might get arrested for possession if the 'burbs were patrolled as heavily? Yes. But the prisons would not suddenly be filled with white kids who finally got caught committing auto theft and robbery and murder.
I am a girl, who scored in the top 95% of the college entrance exams. I got scholarships out the wazoo. I no doubt had some guy somewhere thinking I got his spot, or his money. Do I sit around and whine about it? No! Have I been accused of cheating at some point in my school career? I'm sure! So why is it all your problems are racism, but the rest of us's problems are just life?
" I don’t think I am better than those who did give up, just like Cosby shouldn’t think he is better." But he is. He doens't sell drugs or glorify those who do, or make excuses. And if you chose education over crime and breeding children for the government to feed, you are better too. And why is it you think most black people can't afford a rap cd, yet cell phones and rims and mp3 players and NBA gear and (on and on and on) are just about standard issue for everyone in inner cities? Oh, those are necessities? Right along trying to keep the lights on and food on the table? Ot do they not count because drug money is used to pay for those items?
ANd really, are we pointing to diamonds as an african achievement? yes, probably people in africa can dig up their backyard and find diamonds. BECAUSE ANOTHER AFRICA HAS THEM AT GUNPOINT FOR IT!!!!!! I don't wear diamonds personally, their value is artificially enhanced by controlling supply, and I have issues with the bloodbath in africa over them. I know non-african coutries have their problems and have had genocide, but it seems to be a pervasive issue over there. And whites are not in charge. So who can they blame? Themselves. And all the people that like to blame whites for slavery forget that AFRICANS were hunting and SELLING other AFRICANS to the whites. We didn't go catch them. So keep a little blame for your own ancestors there. Seems like maybe the african-american apple didn't fall far from the african tree.
momnof3 at July 27, 2008 6:08 AM
I don't wear diamonds either. They're about the stupidest thing you can buy. I wear big plastic and glass jewelry and nobody's standing in the streets, jeering me for it as I go by. Hell, in Los Angeles, the fact that I'm wearing a dress instead of sweatpants, is a big deal. People only know if your diamonds are real if you tell them, and if you walk around talking about your diamonds, I don't want to know you anyway.
Amy Alkon at July 27, 2008 8:01 AM
Honestly, I never thought having pride and defending my people would be such a problem. It’s almost like I just spit in someone’s food.
There is a big difference between being chased around and called “dirty Jew” as a child and being called a “dirty nigger bitch” as a child, as a preteen, as a teen, and as adult. It’s one thing to say you did well on your college entrance exams and possibly people thinking you have cheated or taken their spot. It is a whole different ball game for people to say it to your face, in front of teachers, in front of a crowd or when you are alone. I’m not taking away from your challenges in life just because I say that as a black woman, I faced those challenges regularly. It was hardly an isolated incident.
On the Dafur issue, I am a little confused. Many of you think the black community is full of problems and demand to know why they can’t or aren’t trying to help themselves. In the same breath, you think they should take a responsibility to helping others. If I have nothing, feel that I am nothing and that I will never be anything, what can I offer to anyone else, especially people an ocean’s distance away? How can I help the person who lives next door to me or with me?
I too would like to believe racism is a thing of the past. That everyone has an equal opportunity to make it and if everyone tries hard enough they will make. It would make me feel all cozy, comfortable and relieved that the blame finger is no longer pointed at me, but rather at those black people who just won’t do anything for themselves or others. If I were you, it would definitely make me feel better. So I am hardly shocked that you feel that way. But then you must understand why I feel different. While you may not care about the color of my skin, there are hundreds out there who do. I am glad you let it go (or never had it) but that doesn’t mean because you are not a racist, no one else could be either. Everyone is sympathetic when a man verbally abuses a woman to the point that she internalizes is negative thoughts and they become her own thoughts about herself. But then it too farfetched to understand how a society can do it to a race of people. The woman should go to counseling. The race of people, should just get over it.
I wish my people did more for each other. No doubt about that. I wish we were doing as well as the Jewish community or the Asian community. I wish fathers were staying with and supporting their families. I wish drugs and crime didn’t run rampant loose and uncontrolled in my neighborhood. I wish that young people would save their money for college rather than buy new sneakers or clothes. I completely agree with everyone on that. However because I have walked in their shoes, and know their life, I also understand why it’s not happening. Why they don’t plan for a future, because they don’t think they have one. Because I understand is why I don’t agree with Mr. Cosby. And maybe he does understand, he just doesn’t remember. Maybe when I am as old as he is I will look back at my people with disgust and disdain. But I am praying that I am not like that.
Brian, what that man in your class said to you in 1995 is still true today. It’s July 27, 2008 and I am telling you I work and study really hard “Because I have to be twice as good as you to be considered half as good as you”
I didn’t focus on only Egypt or on diamonds as the only achievements noted in Africa. Other commenter’s picked up on it, and I merely responded to what they are saying. Those two things are not the only things I have to be proud of from Africa. But they are commonly known things that a reader wouldn’t have to Google before responding. Africa is now the ruins of colonialism. You are correct in saying that the some Africans are digging in their backyards for diamonds , “BECAUSE ANOTHER AFRICA HAS THEM AT GUNPOINT FOR IT!!!!!!” But I hope you know that African with a gun got it from a white man, and that diamond is going to be handed over to a white man. Because the white man is one person removed from the situation does that mean he is less to blame? I think he is more to blame, because the puppet master is controlling the African with the gun, the one digging, your interpretation of the situation and how much that diamond will later sell for. The African with a gun is a have not chosen to exploit another have not. Is he free of blame? No. Is he solely to blame, as you suggest? No.
I am an American, but if I fill out any application, for a job, school, anything, I have a box to check. I didn’t decide to be different from you. I was given a choice of White, Black, Asian or Latino. American was not an option. If it is on my next application, I will be sure to check it, highlight it, circle it and add arrows.
As I have told many many before you and probably will tell many after you, just because my opinion is different from yours does not mean I am really dumb.
Renee at July 27, 2008 8:27 AM
There is a big difference between being chased around and called “dirty Jew” as a child and being called a “dirty nigger bitch” as a child, as a preteen, as a teen, and as adult
Oh, please. When I was in eighth grade, my father had to go to the principal because girls were throwing chairs at me and calling me a dirty Jew. The first day of college, my roommate asked me if I had horns. (She was from a small town in Michigan, and, as her mother said, she'd "never seen a Jewish girl before.") Lovely. Even now, because I have red hair and people think I'm Irish, I'll hear cracks about Jews. And? It hasn't stopped me from doing this with my life; if anything, it drove me to do more.
As for blacks helping other blacks in this country, I don't see a whole lot of it. I'm the girl, white as typing paper, who's there at University High, talking to kids about how I messed up and how I got ahead when I was competing, for example, with kids of rich and positioned people to get a job at Ogilvy & Mather right out of school and when they wouldn't even answer my letters. Oh, and P.S. (Now a film director) Reggie Hudlin, who is black, got in at O&M without a hitch, probably because he went to Harvard and because they want black faces in business, and he happened to have one.
Newsflash: Not everybody has equal opportunity and they never will. Take poor white kids. They can't get those "diversity fellowships" offered by the features editors organization. They only help out black or otherwise "of color" kids. Well, how terribly racist. Are you shouting out about how racist that is, about where the equal opportunity is?
I see in your posts a sense of being victimized and from a victimized people. Listen, Jews have had it rough in that area for centuries. Jews aren't sitting around whining about it (well, okay, a lot of Jews have a persecution complex, which I find really tiresome...but they aren't letting it stop them from becoming something, and something besides a drug dealer outside the elementary school).
Something is wrong within black families and within black culture. Put a black kid in a Jewish or Asian home, and he or she is a lot less likely to grow up a drug dealer. It isn't skin color; it's the color of what's in your head. Victim or somebody who's going to say, "Fuck the people against me, I'm gonna get ahead"?
P.S. If I checked "black" on my application (or the ridiculous "African American") I'd get jobs a whole lot faster.
And FYI, this stupid term doesn't fit a friend of mine who's black and happens to be from St. Lucia. She has, by the way, accomplished enormous things in her life, after growing up poor, and in a family where the father walked out. Then again, she has contempt for the culture of victimization.
Oh, and one other thing, I'm not surprised that you seem to subscribe to the notion that your opinion is worth as much as the next person's (although you state it in a more loaded way). I always hate when people say that to me. It really depends on what you're opining about. If it's something I know a lot about, like evolutionary psych, your opinion probably isn't worth a turd next to mine.
In this area, I see your opinion colored by preconceived notions and a defensiveness about the failings of the black community and see you posting a lot of ridiculous stuff -- too much to address, really, with all the work I have to do this weekend....but the stuff about Asians, for example. Again, have an Asian family adopt a black kid when he's a baby and see whether he ends up robbing houses or "robbing" some other kid of the valedictorian spot at the local high school.
Amy Alkon at July 27, 2008 9:06 AM
I didn’t focus on only Egypt or on diamonds as the only achievements noted in Africa.
Aren't they all you mentioned? Let's face it: Africa is a backward and violent continent and it hasn't offered much of value to the world except what's come out of the ground, except if you count South Africa.
Jews also are not the greatest basketball players and sports stars in history. The Irish, likewise, are not the people populating the now-hilariously named Boston Celtics. To say so is just honest. Jews will tout Sandy Koufax for baseball, but come on, they're really stretching it in the athletic achievement division.
Amy Alkon at July 27, 2008 9:16 AM
*Honestly, I never thought having pride and defending my people would be such a problem.*
LOL that's funny.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at July 27, 2008 9:23 AM
Gog...can you e-mail me? I have to ask you something about something you posted once that I want to quote in the book I'm writing.
adviceamy at a o l dot com
Merci.
Amy Alkon at July 27, 2008 9:32 AM
Renee> I am happy for the Chinese, Haitians and Italians, and not mad there is no Little Jamaica, Nigeriatown, Little Egypt, South Africatown, etc.
Funnily enough many cities today do have what amount to "South Africatowns", though they're not called that ... but they are not created by black people, but by thousands of white South Africans fleeing the violence and other problems in South Africa.
Anyway, Africa may be a bunch of countries but that doesn't detract from the point, does it? Africa is HUGE .... also the separate countries were invented by the colonialists only very recently in history (google Berlin Conference) ... before colonial countries there were mostly loosely defined territories occupied by people of varying but related ethnicity, e.g. the Zulus, the Tswanas, the Igbo, the Baluba etc. ... hundreds of peoples who today collectively number approximately 700 million ... and even collectively they have little historically to point to to "brag about", in spite of having had Africa with its vast size and incredible resources mostly to themselves for thousands of years (and Africa is vast, three times the area of the USA).
NicoleK>that the black people don't know where in Africa they came from, so can't point to the achievements of their particular cultures
Oh don't worry, you name the culture/place, and there's virtually nothing to point to. The only true "civilizations" in Africa that you could point to, were created by people of different 'stock' to those from which American Americans come.
I'm Jewish too and can relate to and 'confirm' what Amy describes, having been raised amongst an almost purely Christian society (no other Jews in my school etc.), all my life I've been treated like an outsider and with contempt, I've been spat on, beaten, insulted, ostracized etc., anti-semitism is incredibly rife. Even today, at easily a quarter of social gatherings I attend I still encounter anti-semitism (mostly people don't realise I'm Jewish, I'm not Orthodox). How does being called names though, like 'dirty nigger bitch', "hold one down"? It doesn't. Blacks have had a rough time historically, but Jews have had far worse and for far longer. Yet I don't sit and whine how "oppressed" I've been and excuse my failures on it, on the contrary, I work and study hard to achieve even more; this is one of the ways we survive. I've achieved more than most of those people I grew up amongst.
Some of you peoples descriptions of Africa are incredibly horribly clichéd and silly btw. What, you think most Africans are sitting digging for diamonds with a gun to their head?
You know what makes me angry? I am African and have seen a bit of what "real" poverty is like in "real" Africa here --- what black Americans don't seem to realise is that they have more opportunities, more privileges, more rights and more freedoms than 80% of the entire population of the planet ... half the rest of the world can only DREAM of how amazing it would be to merely have the opportunity to just be an American - even if they had to start with nothing but the shirt on their backs and leave their families/friends behind, millions of people would still trade places in a second with any black American - and yet black Americans just whine about how bad they have it. PLEASE. Give me a friggin BREAK.
Try live in a country with zero welfare, where you don't have electricity (no hot showers, no fridges etc.), and have to walk miles every day JUST to get WATER in a bucket from a dirty river or communal tap, where your "school" is a five mile walk and is a small rundown building with no electricity, no textbooks, no computers, no science labs, no projectors, and your classes are held under a tree etc. ... come live like this for a while ... THEN come tell me how you're so "held down" in that USA (where you do actually have every right and every opportunity that any white American has). How many black Americans have to worry daily about where they are going to get their next drink of water? You think you're entitled to a wonderful life handed to you on a platter or something.
And the most amazing thing is that Africans are mostly so much more happy and high-spirited and affable, so much more positive than the typical whining "I have it so bad" African American.
It makes me sick to my stomach to see people with so much opportunity whine about how bad they have it. Even though some of their peers have risen to be amongst the richest people in the world, something they could have done in few other countries than America.
David J at July 27, 2008 5:32 PM
My family and friends told me not to do this, that the black experience is not something you can put into words. And now I am thinking they were right. I don't think my opinion is more or less valuable as any one else. I do think it is weird that when I voice my opinion in an open forum, that I am called dumb. That's all. I wasn't trying to turn this into a "my plight is greater than your plight" arguement. I was trying to get you to understand the black experience. Understand may not be the right word. You think Jewish people had a larger struggle and you feel you have to say that, but somehow I am not entitled to feel the same way about Blacks. You can be proud of your Jewish history, but I should be ashamed of Black history. I don't get it. But I imagine there is nothing I could say that would make you feel ashamed of being Jewish. Well I feel the same way. Black, African Americans, Africans, whatever you want to call us, I consider them my people. And while I wish they acheived more, I don't ignore what they have done. I am proud to be Black. That shouldn't threaten who you are. It shouldn't make you mad/angry. I don't know how NOT to be proud to be black. I'm not going to be sorry or feel bad about that. It would be like hating myself...
Renee at July 27, 2008 7:33 PM
I actually don't care about anybody's struggle, but you keep bringing up how victimized black people are - and I find this a common thing with blacks I've met over the years: your identity is that you're persecuted. Erin Aubry Kaplan writes stuff for the LA Times from time to time. If she had to write about anything but being black and persecuted, I always wonder if she'd have anything to say. Your problem isn't whitey, it's thinking your problem is whitey.
Oh, boohoo, somebody called you dumb. Uh..wait...who? I searched up here and you're the one who used the "doesn't mean I'm dumb."
There's a different kind of discrimination than the kind you surely instantly think of -- the kind that means choosing between good and bad, okay and better.
The point of this post and the other one, you never really addressed: the way blacks, disproportionately to their number, are in prison, etc. I did hit on what I think a big reason is -- fatherless families, and the way there's a lack of shame in "the black community" about unwed mothers, teen mothers, etc.
I didn't call you dumb - I pointed out through numerous examples that you are not a very sharp thinker, and pointed out why you were wrong or ridiculous.
I really don't give a shit about Jewish history. I am a single person living in the world who happened to be born to Jewish parents. I don't need to cling to some proud history - nor do I. All that matters is who I am today, which is reflected through what I do today.
Again, I brought up examples just to show you that I could go one better on, "Woe is me, my people were persecuted," but still not end up a crack dealer on a playground.
I'm not German-Russian-German-Polish-border-American. I'm American. What's with "the black experience" stuff? I have black friends who have all different experiences. I grew up with a black guy who's now a newscaster on the east coast. Handsome as hell, and always seemed to have a charmed life. A friend of mine is a black fashion designer. Grew up poor, made it on her own. Designs clothes for stars now. Another friend is black, and a newspaper reporter, but so light-skinned she looks Latina or white. Is there some collective experience these people all have? Personally, I wouldn't put the three of them together at a dinner party because they'd have little to say to each other and none of them are so uninteresting that they'd have to bond over being from a people who've been persecuted. In fact, I think each of them would be horrified to be defined that way instead of by their accomplishments.
Yeah, okay, Jews can talk about whether momma's matzo balls were hard or something, but I relate to people as people, I don't cling to some crowd of Jews as a security blanket. I try to live in a world populated by a lot of different people, which is why I'm at home in California. Next-door-neighbor is black, neighbor behind me is Latino with an Anglo-Saxon wife. She doesn't cling, like a rat on driftwood, to the Anglo-Saxon experience.
You're proud of being black? I find that weird. You're proud of having skin more tan than mine? Should I be "proud" of being white? Personally, I just think of it as the skin I got handed down genetically from my parents and a good reason to avoid the sun.
Amy Alkon at July 27, 2008 8:10 PM
My family and friends told me not to do this, that the black experience is not something you can put into words.
Uh...why not?
(Forgot that bit.)
See, what we do around here is call people on their bullshit.
And FYI, people call me on mine plenty.
Amy Alkon at July 27, 2008 8:14 PM
Oh, and let me call you on your bullshit a little more. The black experience can't be put into words?
Please.
Ever see a foreign film? One from India, France, Germany, Russia? Maybe even a really old film from one of those places? You can understand what the person in the film is going through, right? I mean, unless you're learning disabled or something.
That's because we are all human and have human experiences.
I believe what you're saying with the bit on "the black experience" not being something that can be put into words is a number of the people here commenting, including me, are quite right, and you need to sneak out of here pretending otherwise.
Amy Alkon at July 27, 2008 8:39 PM
I seem to recall reading somewhere that the fastest way to stop being a victim of something was to stop feeling like one.
The way I see it is that the Black community at large seems to have a "Victim Complex". Everytime something bad happens it is blamed on racism or discrimination. The community at large needs to stop feeling like to victim and start taking responsibility for there own actions and start expecting more out of there young people.
I may be a White Man, but my parents made sure that I and my brother and sister grew up with the right values and morals. My parents never went to college, but my brother is an Electrical Engineer, my sister is a Registered Nurse, and I have an Associates Degree and a Bachelors Degree. We weren't handed any of this, we had to work for it. We were only given the guidance and a will to succeed from our parents.
Stop blaming everyone else, lace those boots up tight and get to work. That is the only way things are going to get better.
Matthew at July 27, 2008 11:23 PM
I never said "Amy you called me dumb." Someone else did, I was responding to her.
If I had come on here supporting what you wrote my ideas and opinions wouldn't be bullshit. They would be yours. I never said that what you were saying was crap. I said I didn't agree and I stated why I didn't agree. Clearly if I am not going to "yes Ma'am" to you, then I shouldn't say anything.
I used the phrase "the black experience" so that I wouldn't continue to hog up the space on your blog with my lenghthy post.
I am hardly whining. I am not blaming anyone, that is not partly to blame. I did point out areas where black people could do better. My post were long, so maybe you didn't read it.
I have laced up my boots and got to work. I consider myself very successful and know that I will only continue to do better. What I was saying is that I understand, since I have been and still am there, why others choose to give up.
I don't know why this happens. But whenever I get into a discussion with white people about black issues, they start counting out their black friends. I never said you didn't have any black friends nor did I say I didn't have non black friends. Why are you counting?
I am allowed to disagree with you. Just because you think Bill Cosby, a black man, agrees with you doesn't mean I have to. And just because Bill Cosby says it, hardly makes it the truth. Just like what I have said is my opinion, what he has said is his.
Renee at July 28, 2008 6:18 AM
But whenever I get into a discussion with white people about black issues, they start counting out their black friends. I never said you didn't have any black friends nor did I say I didn't have non black friends. Why are you counting?
See, you're on autopilot. I don't just have three black friends. I made the example of those particular three because they're so different, and have such different experiences -- except, perhaps, in this: I think the idea that they would be united under the banner of victimhood and not their achievements would be reprehensible to all three.
This was a point about this so-called "black experience" that white people supposedly just can't get.
Oh yeah, does that include the Jews who died supporting the civil rights movement? Or do they have special dispensation to understand "the black experience"?
I'm still really fascinated as to what this "black experience" is that I couldn't possibly comprehend.
Amy Alkon at July 28, 2008 7:25 AM
You are not reading. I didn't say you had three black friends. Even if I go by your post alone, you mentioned another black friend of yours earlier. It does not matter how many black friends you have. You are the one who started counting. I was just asking why.
You are allowed to talk about how you were called names as a child, and how now you are successful. I didn't tell you to stop being victim. It is as if I cannot speak about struggles and adversity without whining about my victimhood. Just because I am saying we are struggling and facing different kinds of adversity than you faced does not mean I am playing down our acheivements. I specifically posted what I have achieved. I named specific examples of what Africans have to be proud of. You decided my examples weren't good enough and that the cure for cancer died in the Holocaust, because Jews "tend to be people who are scientists, inventors, and people who work with their heads, not their hands." The rest of us, of course, are playing in the dirt .
Imagine the black experience as the equivalent of the Jewish experience except for with Black people. I have no idea what it is like to face anti semitic jokes, and slurs. I have no idea what it is to have had relatives at concentration camps, in fear day in and day out that it would be there last day. I have no idea and because I have no idea, I wouldn't tell you to stop talking about. I wouldn't tell you not to whine about it. I wouldn't encourage you to forget it and pull up your boot straps. (Ok maybe not you since you said "I really don't give a shit about Jewish history.") I do give a shit about Black history. You have no idea what is like to be black in America, just like I have no idea what it is like to be Jewish in America. Try offering me the same courtesy that I am offering you.
Renee at July 28, 2008 7:50 AM
Sorry, but diamonds and the pyramids? No, they don't really cut it.
I don't focus on past discrimination -- it's a way to avoid doing things in the future, sitting around all "Woe is us."
You have no idea what is like to be black in America, just like I have no idea what it is like to be Jewish in America. Try offering me the same courtesy that I am offering you.
Ah, but I'm not Jewish in America, I'm an American.
And you tell me you can never explain "the black experience" to a white person. Why not? What is it?
I suspect "the black experience" you're talking about is identifying as a victim and as part of a group of victims. I can understand why you would not want to explain that to anyone.
Amy Alkon at July 28, 2008 8:02 AM
Renee> What I was saying is that I understand, since I have been and still am there, why others choose to give up.
Just being able to "give up" is a LUXURY that only the truly privileged have (whether or not they realise how privileged they actually are).
When the line between "not giving up" and "giving up" is literally the line between life and death, then you will start to understand and appreciate what kind of opportunities, freedoms and privileges African Americans have, as Americans.
These people who have "given up" - they still mostly have roofs over their heads right? They still eat somehow? They're not starving en masse? They have drinking water somehow? Most have electricity? Who PROVIDES these things? What does it even mean to "give up" when you can fall back onto a cushion like that?
That doesn't mean you have to ignore your history, but stop blaming it. Yes, your history affected your ancestors, as is true for everyone. But how many generations does it take to lift yourself up by your bootstraps already?
Consider immigrants - do you know how difficult it is to emigrate? The typical immigrant to America faces enormous obstacles, most of them arrive poor, unable to speak English very well, with only third-world educations, facing far more racism and job opportunity limitations, have NO affirmative action they can rely on --- and within one or two generations at most the typical immigrant has, through hard work and diligence, lifted themselves up into middle class and fully integrated into American society. The average black American has a far easier starting point, you automatically have what millions of people basically give up their whole lives to attain --- so how many generations should it take for them? Slavery was abolished longer ago than my ancestors had to flee to a third-world country out here in 'the African bush' with nothing but the clothes on their backs because they were being slaughtered back home - and they were amongst the lucky few who got out - within two generations they went from absolute poverty in what was little more than the African bush to being successful doctors, engineers, business owners etc. And I never once, ever, and I mean EVER, heard any of my grandparents complain or even talk about how bad they'd had it when they started out -- they never even discussed such things, I presume they 'understood' that us new generations should just live our own lives without being burdened with the baggage of their past -- I didn't even know what they'd gone through until recently when I started investigating and learning about how they'd ended up in SA in the first place. Like Amy I never even bothered about that history. My family look FORWARD, not backward. It's all about what you're going to do, and whatever you do you better do it well. We acknowledge that life has sucked in the past and acknowledge the ways in which it still sucks --- but never with the expectation that we are *entitled* to live in a world that doesn't have these problems. I don't take anti-semitism personally because I realise how absurd it is, even though it can and does affect my life, well so be it. "Life is hard" is the minimum baseline expectation, over and above that you just do the best with what you've been given. You think whites have easy, laid-back privileged lives?
On the so-called issue of "counting friends", you missed the point of what Amy was trying to get at, and you totally ignored what she wrote. The way you put it, white people are not even allowed to EVER mention what any of their black friends do, because that immediately is just "counting friends" (what a ridiculous idea - as if you believe whites are all just trying to brag about how many black friends they have, and that this is the only reason a white person ever mentions a black friend? GIMME a BREAK.) How about responding to the valid points that Amy made when she mentioned those friends as examples.
David J at July 28, 2008 8:46 AM
Yeah I'd also like to hear what this "black experience" is.
Frogz at July 28, 2008 8:54 AM
David J, thanks -- so well put.
And that's exactly it -- it's about looking forward.
And sorry, if you have a dishwasher, a car, and new clothes you bought at the mall -- like so many "poor" people in America -- I can't really find it within myself to feel pity for you at how hard you have it.
And you got it, too, on my mention of a few of my black friends, and the ridiculousness that white people are not allowed to mention their black friends, because it's always seen as a brag about how many black friends they have...even if that's not why they're mentioning them at all.
Amy Alkon at July 28, 2008 9:08 AM
And if Renee can't tell us about "the black experience," maybe others can. This guy, for example:
onpointradio.org/shows/2005/03/20050330_a_main.asp
Notice that he grew up without a father...something I've speculated is responsible for many of the problems in the black community.
Amy Alkon at July 28, 2008 9:10 AM
From my second post, all you took from it was pyramids and diamonds. This is what I wrote
"In spite of all its problems, Africa has a lot to be proud of. There are pyramids in Africa. If you own a diamond it probably came from Africa. Nelson Mandela was born in, a prisoner in, and a president in Africa. African slave labor helped build this country. Life probably began in Africa. Black Americans were brought to this country from Africa. There is Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan. Malcolm X and Martin Luther King. Sojourner Truth and George Washington Carver. Barak Obama and Thurgood Marshall."
You can ignore your Jewish history, and present, because you can blend and just be another white American. David, my parents are immigrants. Thats why I said I am a Jamaican America. My parents and their parents and as far back as they can tell me are Jamaican. I would love to be just an American (ok no I wouldn't but for arguement sake), but I have an accent. Unless your deaf, I'm clearly not just an American. I have brown skin, so unless your blind, I can't blend in. I didn't separate myself from white Americans, they did it for me. I didn't say "wow, I want to be different" and then made up a name for myself. American history assigned me something different. Now that I embrace it, its obviously a problem.
Amy and David, neither of you want to be associated with the history of your parents or grandparents. You want to just be an American and let everything else fall to the way side. To me, that is crazy. How could you not care, relate or identify?
Amy listed her black friends because she thought that based on their achievements, attractiveness, and skin hue, they wouldn't have much in common. If thats not what she meant, it is what she said since that is all the information she provided about them. Just because people don't share those things does not mean "they'd have little to say to each other and none of them are so uninteresting that they'd have to bond over being from a people who've been persecuted." It is not all black people talk about. And of course, talking about black history would be considered "uninteresting" to someone who doesn't even care about their own history.
Giving up means settling and not believing you deserve more than what is around you. Believing that the neighborhood you were born in is the neighborhood you are going to die in and that you aren't worth anything. I don't know if other groups have that pervasive feeling running through them and everyone around them. I was saying that is what the Black people in my old neighborhood and so many other black neighborhood feel.
In the beginning, I was responding to the first commenter that "Sadly, I think Africans then & now might have a harder time thinking of things to brag about". I was telling him he was wrong. I don't know half of my history and I can brag. I don't know half of what successful black people are doing today (like Amy's friends) and I can still brag.
Renee at July 28, 2008 9:17 AM
Regarding the accent, my friends Sonja Lyubomirsky and Lisa Zunshine have accents, too. They are from Russia. Sonja came here when she was six. Not sure when Lisa hit these shores. They are both professors -- highly successful professors.
Lisa, in fact, is on a Guggenheim fellowship at Yale right now. As of late, Sonja travels the world giving talks about her research. Sonja's book: The How of Happiness: A Scientific Approach to Getting the Life You Want. Lisa's last book: Why We Read Fiction: Theory of Mind and the Novel (Theory and Interpretation of Narrative). Both of these books are fantastic. And Lisa has a new one coming out that I have yet to read, but will soon.
Sonja and Lisa are both originally Jewish, I believe, but I don't really know. They're Americans now, same as I am. And it seems their accents (Sonja's is quite slight) have not held them back an iota. The same goes for another Russian-born bloke who has the tiniest bit of accent, Constitutional scholar Eugene Volokh, who's a professor at UCLA's law school. P.S. He graduated from UCLA undergrad at 15, I believe. After coming here from Russia. Rather impressive!
So...maybe you'd better rethink about how that accent makes you not American. Maybe what makes you less American is how victimized you seem to feel, and how you feel it's your origins or skin color that are to blame -- that pyramid-sized chip you seem to have on your shoulder.
Don't be too quick to quote the hateful, divisive Malcolm X as a sign of black achievement. Here's a quote from this scumbag from a Playboy interview he did with Alex Haley in 1963:
malcolm-x.org/docs/int_playb.htm
The fact remains, black Africa is not a continent that has produced much more than violence (and don't forget the blacks who sold other blacks into slavery). In this country, black men are in prison disproportionate to their percentage in the population, and I don't think that's just because black people get picked up for crack while white people get a wrist-slap for cocaine.
There are serious problems in the black community and the black family -- unless, of course you believe that blacks are genetically inferior and prone to crime -- and pretending that there's some wealth of black accomplishment will not change that, and in fact, deflects the attention from where it needs to be.
Amy Alkon at July 28, 2008 9:44 AM
So if I mention my "victimization" then I can't mention my success in spite of. If I mention my success, I can't speak of my "victimization"? It is one or the other for you.
You are telling me Sonja and Lisa do not tell people they are Russian. When they stand up and teach their lectures, and their students listen, everyone is thinking, "Oh yeah, she is definitely an American." If someone said to them that Russians have nothing to brag about, they would say, " Yes Yes you are so right. How glad I am to be an American. Now I have something to brag about."
Saying that "There are serious problems in the black community and the black family" and completely ignoring the success stories from these same black communities, is unreasonable. I'd go so far as to say it's hateful. You mention your friends successes but then accuse me of "pretending that there's some wealth of black accomplishment." Blacks today are doing much more today than they were doing yesterday, but still not as much as they will do tomorrow. The ones of us who are successful shouldn't have to ignore our history so that you feel more comfortable. We should be able to say, "I accomplished this, inspite of." The ones of us who a less successful, should just shut up and be thankful they have a dishwasher, and new clothing.
Malcolm X was hateful because he wasn't trying to get blacks to hold hands with whites. He was telling us to do exactly what you say we are not doing. He argued that we should do for ourselves, create our own thriving communities and business rather than support yours. Create our own Chinatown and Little Italy. But he didn't say it in a way that made white Americans at the time feel safe. Not even just white Americans. What he was saying frightened black Americans too. (I mentioned other black leaders too. So before someone says Malcolm X is not someone to brag about from black history,because of his message, check out the rest of the list.)
Roland Fryer, you mention was successful, even though his mother left and his father was less than a capable parent. How do you know this? Because he said so. He is talking about his struggle and how he overcame. He didn't pretend that all he is, is who he is today or that he came from no where. You name him because he was successful and because you believe if he did, any black man can. Except you also say he got pulled over, and LET GO. If he hadn't he be a different story. Then you wouldn't even know his name, and he would just be another black man in poor black neighborhood, that you wish would get his shit together.
"black men are in prison disproportionate to their percentage in the population, and I don't think that's just because black people get picked up for crack while white people get a wrist-slap for cocaine. "
Of course you don't. If that were true, then it would be another example of black "victimization". And you are obviously tired of hearing about that.
Renee at July 28, 2008 11:25 AM
"Part of the problem could be, possibly, that the black people don't know where in Africa they came from, so can't point to the achievements of their particular cultures."
This, and a number of other quotes saying that your cultural identity is at least partially responsible for how you do in life is taking a self-pity dump in their comments. No one should NEED to point to the achievements that their ancestors made to take pride in themselves if they make the effort to achieve on their own merits.
Where you came from - your ancestral past - has little to no relevance on where you are NOW, and where you want to go in the FUTURE. To give it more importance than its worth is to limit yourself. It's like people changing their lives because they found out Shirley-McClaine-style they were some foreign prince in a past life. It has just as much bearing.
Your past has passed, and isn't really relevant to your future. The focus has to be on what you want, who you want to BECOME (not who you were or where you came from), and what you can do to achieve the goal. What relevance does my being German/Dutch decent have on the life I make for myself? Nothing.
I can give examples if you like, it will just take a while to compile an adequate list.
Jamie (SMS) at July 28, 2008 11:38 AM
"My family and friends told me not to do this, that the black experience is not something you can put into words. "
You are either admitting a rather startling limitation among millions of black people or insulting the rest of humanity's empathic capacities. All manner of human experience--love, torture, parenthood, war, lust, glory, shame--has been described in a manner that people grasp it even if they do not themvselves experience it at that moment. But you claim, apparently, that although I can read the Tale of Genji and appreciate much about that life, I cannot similarly grasp the life of the person living next door to me, because his melanin count is slightly higher?
So we have a class of people who are either so limited or so unique that their particular experiences are incapable of being understood by the billions of people living in the world with them this very day?
Nope. Not buying it.
That technique of debate you now employ is a way to evade having to explain a matter using facts, data, illustrative examples, logic, and appeals to commonalities, etc.
To advance your position you place the topic being discussed beyong us "other" benighted people. Therefore I must simply accept your invocation of a mysterious knowledge I allegedly cannot comprehend, or verify, or test. Etc.
Religions do that too, and I detest it equally there. It is a ploy typically aimed at obtaining greater social standing by one group claiming to possess special knowledge unavailable to others. Naturally, the claims are, alas, ultimately unquantifiable and unverifiable. Not surprisingly, those making such claims are often found later attempting to translate their claim of specialness into direct material benefits for themselves.
Turning now to the issue of affirmative action...
Spartee at July 28, 2008 12:22 PM
"Where you came from - your ancestral past - has little to no relevance on where you are NOW, and where you want to go in the FUTURE. "
I commend to you Thomas Sowell's works on race, economics and culture. He would likely disagree with your statement, but in a way you might find very interesting. After reading his stuff, I found debates about race, culture and economic outcomes to be much less interesting, unless people could address Sowell's data and ideas. Very few can, I find.
spartee at July 28, 2008 12:35 PM
I think it's kind of gross to be proud of your racial ancestor's achievements.
Like Amy, I'm a big fan of the Enlightenment, and of much European culture as well. How exactly that is supposed to rub off on me just because I too have white skin is a mystery to me. After all, I have contributed exactly zero to that record of achievement.
Honor it, learn about it, defend it, yes. But be proud of it? What claim do I have to that pride?
Todd Fletcher at July 28, 2008 12:41 PM
I would love to be just an American (ok no I wouldn't but for arguement sake), but I have an accent. Unless your deaf, I'm clearly not just an American. I have brown skin, so unless your blind, I can't blend in.
Speaking as an American who knows lots of other Americans with a variety of accents (including African) and skin colors, this sentence doesn't even make sense. I know Amy made the point about her neighborhood, and looking around mine in a totally different part of the country, we don't exactly live in a part of the world where how you look and how you speak is a requirement for citizenship (in fact, the new citizens I know are often better educated since they've had to work hard for what the rest of us got by birth).
So if I mention my "victimization" then I can't mention my success in spite of. If I mention my success, I can't speak of my "victimization"? It is one or the other for you.
Maybe the answer is to start thinking about how you are being "victimized?" By having police patrol your neighborhoods more often? If I were living in an area where crime was out of control and the best way for kids to earn money was to sell drugs I'd be insisting on more police patrols. But how dare they arrest people who are committing crimes! It might actually cause someone to re-think their path like Roland Fryer. But we can't have that, because then you won't be a victim anymore, you'd be taking some control of your own life.
And before I hear about my not understanding the "black experience" I'd like to say that I did grow up in a neighborhood like the one you've described and have been working full time since I was 15 to support two alcoholic parents and my younger siblings, and then my two children immediately thereafter. I haven't always made the best decisions, but I don't consider myself a victim either. Life isn't easy for a lot of us, but you can choose to whine about it and blame everyone else for not handing the world to you on a silver platter, or work hard and make life better. In America the opportunities are there if you're willing to stop playing the victim card and go for it - no matter what your skin color is. Most of the world is not that lucky (thanks, David J for the first hand example!).
Kristyle at July 28, 2008 3:20 PM
Renee> Amy and David, neither of you want to be associated with the history of your parents or grandparents. You want to just be an American and let everything else fall to the way side. To me, that is crazy. How could you not care, relate or identify?
BTW I'm not American, I'm South African, sorry if you missed that but it should give some additional context to some of what I've written.
Speaking for myself now, I don't think it's about "just being American" or "just being South African". When you said Amy doesn't know what it's like to be black in America, 'just like you have no idea what it is like to be Jewish in America', she responded "Ah, but I'm not Jewish in America, I'm an American" ... I think it's about what you see yourself as FIRST. I don't see myself as a "Jew in South Africa" (that would be framing myself from the get-go as an OUTSIDER, which of course would make it impossible to ever fit in, and it would be my own fault for defining myself as an outsider), I see myself as a "South African [first], who happens to also be a Jew". When you use the words "black in America", it almost has this ring to it that blacks are wandering and lost in some foreign land that is not theirs. Black Americans are not "foreigners in the land of America", they are "Americans (who happen to be black)".
NONE of the above views involve dissociating from your history, if you'd read my posts it should be clear I have not --- but it was my choice as an adult to re-associate with my history, I was not raised 'connected to it'.
David J at July 28, 2008 3:40 PM
"In all of us there is a hunger, marrow deep, to know our heritage - to know who we are and where we came from. Without this enriching knowledge, there is a hollow yearning. No matter what our attainments in life, there is still a vacuum, an emptiness, and the most disquieting loneliness." - Alex Haley (He is the writer, who wrote Roots and the Biography of Malcolm X)
Personally I do not understand how many of you believe you are an island and take no interest in your history. I wasn’t raised that way, so I can imagine not knowing about my grandparents, their parents and as far back as someone can tell me. And I am not alone. The National Archives (archives.gov) gets hundreds of visitors a week and thousands of documents containing information. Some people don’t know about their history and decide that is unacceptable. They want the information and they go and seek it out. You don’t care, and since you don’t, neither should I.
“You are either admitting a rather startling limitation among millions of black people or insulting the rest of humanity's empathic capacities.” I am doing neither. I was advised not to say anything because of exactly what is happening here. Saying something about black history, means I am whining. I am whining because hearing about it may make you uncomfortable. You just don’t want to hear about it anymore. That is fine, except I am not going to ignore it so you feel comfy. Spartee, please identify what you need references and supporting documentation for. I didn’t see anyone else include a reference section, but like Jamie says ” I can give examples if you like, it will just take a while to compile an adequate list.” Please however do not doubt that there is an adequate list.
“I think it's kind of gross to be proud of your racial ancestor's achievements.” I think it is gross not to. You are okay with learning someone else’s history and ignoring your own. When someone says you have nothing to brag about. You can nod and say “Yes, I have nothing to be proud of, but let me tell you what you can be proud of.”
“The focus has to be on what you want, who you want to BECOME (not who you were or where you came from), and what you can do to achieve the goal.” We celebrate Veteran’s day and Memorial Day to honor the soldiers that have fought and died to protect Americans. Do you celebrate that holiday? Why bother? Its in the past. There is Independence Day, which is also a part of American history. Do you celebrate? President’s Day? Suffrage movements? You pick and choose what history is worth noting and remembering. For me to choose to note and remember my history, is a problem for you, not me.
Renee at July 28, 2008 3:50 PM
Hmm, actually, since I'm white and in Africa, I guess the closest equivalent phrase would be that I am "White in Africa", heh. That sounds rather odd, and doesn't fit how I define my "experience".
You know the impression I sometimes get is that black Americans were emancipated --- but somebody forgot to tell them!
Half-joking there, but for the record I would be glad to trade places with any one of those black Americans who have "given up" - what an amazing opportunity that would be. I know I'd make a success of it even though I'd have an un-American accent for the rest of my life (in fact an African accent, technically).
David J at July 28, 2008 4:00 PM
*Personally I do not understand how many of you believe you are an island and take no interest in your history.*
LOL that's funny.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at July 28, 2008 4:30 PM
David J - I have a whole group of "White, Jewish, South African, New-American" friends, that all have accents, so you'd fit right in here!
Kristyle at July 28, 2008 4:39 PM
*Personally I do not understand how many of you believe you are an island and take no interest in your history.*
LOL that's funny.
"Personally I do not understand how many of you believe you are an island and take no interest in your history."
That might be funnier.
Nice judgment call, from what appears to be a lofty perch of moral superiority. I study my own family history plenty. I've listened to my grandparents tell me plenty. HOWEVER, that doesn't define or limit me in any way. Nor should it. It's best to take your fate in your own hands and take responsibility for your own future, rather than hang it on the past.
But I won't judge you as having an obsessive interest or dependence on history as you've accused many here of having NO interest.
Jamie (SMS) at July 28, 2008 6:39 PM
You are telling me Sonja and Lisa do not tell people they are Russian. When they stand up and teach their lectures, and their students listen, everyone is thinking, "Oh yeah, she is definitely an American." If someone said to them that Russians have nothing to brag about, they would say, " Yes Yes you are so right. How glad I am to be an American. Now I have something to brag about."
Neither one told me they were Russian.
After I knew Lisa a while, after we'd spent a good bit of time talking about science and reason and Theory of Mind and evolutionary psychology, I one day asked her where she was from because she speaks with an accent that sounds eastern European. It's not my first line of interest in a person.
Sonja never mentioned it, either. She was on the panel I moderated for the LA Times Festival of Books. I noticed that she had the tiniest accent and asked her (vis a vis the name) if she was Russian. I always admire immigrants who've made it in America -- from these ladies and their families, to Hector, the newest busboy at The Rose Cafe, who is working very hard to learn English in night classes at Venice High School.
These women, in my experience of them, are defined by their thoughts and their work, and where they are from is just a bit of detail about them. I find them to both be very honest and very analytical, and they'd surely both have opinions on what is good and bad in America and what is good and bad in Russia.
Have you ever even talked to Russians about how they feel about being here? I have. There was the elderly lady at the Schwarzenegger inauguration rally I covered for Pajamas Media. She talked to me about how grateful she was to be here, and how proud she was to be an American, and how she never took it for granted, and how she'd never missed a single opportunity to vote.
And then there was an old man, a guard at Kaiser, who told me he'd been in this country for 15 years. He, too, was grateful to be here, and told me a story, holding up a piece of typing paper, to describe what it was like in his years in Russia: "See this? They tell you eet is black, eet is black."
Russians actually have a great deal to brag about: You've heard, perhaps, of Leo Tolstoy, Doestoevsky, Tchaikovsky, Sergei Eisenstein, the Bolshoi ballet, the Russian space program? Just to name a few.
Amy Alkon at July 28, 2008 8:20 PM
Again: Let an Asian family, with mother, father, and siblings, adopt a black child and raise him with Asian values of hard work, family honor, and all the rest. How likely do you think it is that that child with black skin will become a drug dealer on a playground (because it's "easier" than flipping burgers) versus a Harvard-educated economist? Or just a productive member of society of some sort?
There's a Latina girl at the Rose Cafe I've been trying to help find scholarships to college. Her family is poor. She's a first-generation American, and her grandpa just died -- especially tough in a close, Latino family. She's gotten terrific grades at Santa Monica College, although maybe it would be "easier" to deal drugs or something. Instead, she's aspiring to be a psychologist or maybe study psychology and enter the law. She doesn't have it easy...but she's willing to work to become somebody.
Do blacks have it tougher sometimes? Sure. Then there's my young friend Maia lost her mom, my friend Cathy Seipp, to cancer when Maia was 17. Maia has it tough. Lots of us have it tough in lots of different ways. You can either sit around mewling about how tough you have it or you can go off and become somebody, and maybe do something that makes a difference in the world. Those are the kind of people all my friends, black, white, or other, are.
I agree that all you're doing, Renee, is ducking the request that you actually explain what the "black experience" is, along with a few other requests by pretending we just can't understand it. As Spartee and I pointed out, humans have a capacity to understand other humans -- even those of different races who speak different languages. I study the human experience, by the way, in evolutionary psych data, and the human brain and human psychology is pretty uniform across continents and cultures. In other words, this is all a bunch of evasive hoohah from you about how we wouldn't understand.
I think the truth is, there's a lot that isn't ideal in black culture, and you'd rather not admit that, despite the fact that this isn't some hateful forum...you sort of allude to some accusation that it is...but it isn't. I live in the neighborhood I do precisely because the kind of place I feel most comfortable is where it's a melange of people: different colors, backgrounds, native languages, customs, etc. It's interesting to me. I grew up in white suburbs in Detroit (until things got a little more colorful in high school) and found the white sameness stifling.
I'm not saying there's something seriously wrong with black culture in America (as is Bill Cosby, etc.) because I have some agenda against blacks, but because I see many problems and don't understand why they are allowed to persist...by the black community, for starters. Blacks are sold a bill of goods by the Reverend Wrights and Farakhans, who elevate themselves by preying on the facile desire by blacks to have whitey as a common enemy, when the greatest enemy of the black community is, if I had to guess, the lack of fathers who stick around.
Amy Alkon at July 28, 2008 8:47 PM
Renee when I read your comments about Asians I dismissed your opinion on the grounds that you have very little understanding of Asian history. What happens when you dont think of yourself as a race is that you are curious about everything, including the history of others. You are able to form an understanding of the mechanisims behind their culture and of your own. Despite being a foreigner I feel at home in Seoul.
(Reminds me that the "Latino" experience mattered in places like highschool where I was subjected to such horrible books as the House on Mango Street. I was somehow supposed to relate to such garbage and as rebellion I worshipped Doestoevsky's "The Idiot". )
Dont let your particular community hold you back.
Purplepen at July 29, 2008 12:10 AM
"Life probably began in Africa." -Renee
And your point to this as an arguement.
Not to be too specific but life actually began in the ocean and later adapted to the land. On a small island called Pangea. Your such a fan of history, look it up. But again, we are just speculating on something that doesn't have anything to do with the discussion on hand.
I am also curious about this whole "Black Experience" thing. I lived for a time in Japan, and am curious if the experiences could be similar. Or how about the fact that I am an American living in Germany. Fact is, most people have been confronted with some kind of discrimination. But, that doesn't give anyone the right to claim that there "People" are the victims or that someone is "Holding them back".
You are what you make yourself.
Respecting and being proud of your culture is a wonderful thing. But, that is just another way of not confronting the reality of the situation now. Do you honestly think that if you really educated the Black community at large about the African Culture and its History that it would change the way young black women and men would live? I personally doubt it very much.
History can show us the problems of our past but not guide us into the future.
Matthew at July 29, 2008 3:00 AM
"Life probably began in Africa."
You know somebody's reaching when they take personal, racial credit for evolution!
Purplepen asks a very wise question -- one I asked about Erin Aubry Kaplan, who, by the way, grew up privileged in Los Angeles -- far more privileged than I did in suburban Detroit, from what I hear. Yes, whitey held her back, but good...all the way to an job whining about how black people are held back by whitey on the pages of one of the major daily newspapers of America.
I'm still waiting for news on "the black experience."
Educating people about African culture isn't the answer. Educating people that children need an intact family, complete with a daddy who is not in jail for selling drugs, is the answer...at least, a lot of the time.
Amy Alkon at July 29, 2008 6:39 AM
Renee,
"“I think it's kind of gross to be proud of your racial ancestor's achievements.” I think it is gross not to. You are okay with learning someone else’s history and ignoring your own. When someone says you have nothing to brag about. You can nod and say “Yes, I have nothing to be proud of, but let me tell you what you can be proud of.”
I don't think you read my comment closely as I made it clear that I have deep regard for European culture. But I don't feel pride for it - because I did nothing to make it. Please explain why you are proud of something you did nothing to earn. Haven't you got something better to be proud of? I'm proud of raising my children, because I'm doing it myself. I worship The Well-Tempered Clavier, but I think it's more prudent to let Mr. Bach claim the pride for it.
Todd Fletcher at July 29, 2008 10:23 AM
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