Other Countries Probably Wish They Could Suck Like America Does
Would somebody please get the message to Barbara Ehrenreich already?
Look, we've got problems, and plenty of stuff in need of changing in America, but all in all, it's better to be American than a citizen of any other country. Beyond the fact that this is a country where poor people have cars and dishwashers, just look at freedom of speech. We have miles and miles of free speech:
photo by Gregg Sutter
Think other countries have free speech, too, to the extent we do? Think again -- as Maclean's in Canada is dragged to a kangaroo court on a supposed "human rights violation" because Mark Steyn wrote, in a book excerpt Maclean's published, about Islam's threat to the west.
Sorry, but you violate somebody's human rights when you punch them in the nose -- or blow them up or behead them -- not when you, boohoo, float the idea that their backward and primitive beliefs are a threat to western culture and Enlightenment values...which, by the way, Muslim beliefs absolutely are...starting with the Quran directive to convert or kill the infidel (that would be us).
But, back to Barbara E., here she is again, whimpering about what terrible place America is in her latest book. Laura Vanderkam lays bare the ridiculousness in City Journal:
Writing about the prospects of young college grads, she says, "My son followed up his Ivy League education with years of phone answering and fact-checking before joining me as one of the tiny number of self-supporting freelance writers who do not have the advantage of a trust fund." Answering phones? The horror!Indeed, Ehrenreich herself is probably Exhibit Number One for the fact that there's a lot more to America than the "bleak landscape cluttered with boarded-up homes and littered with broken dreams" that she's intent on seeing. This is a country where a bright girl named Barbara from Butte, Montana, can grow up to become a best-selling author. And a black boy raised by a single mother can become the Democratic nominee for president. Such stories have no place in Ehrenreich's America. She falls into the trap of mourning "America's lost glory"--such as the golden age when Henry Ford made sure his workers could afford to buy his cars. These days, "the sad truth is that people earning Wal-Mart level wages tend to favor the fashions available at the Salvation Army." But Michigan's infant mortality rate for nonwhite babies in 1936 (Ford's heyday) was 71 deaths for every 1,000 live births. If that's a golden age, I prefer our current nightmare. Ehrenreich writes that she sang "America the Beautiful" as a child and "meant it," but during her childhood, Woody Guthrie was singing a verse of his classic tune (which she never mentions) about folks standing outside the relief office, wondering if this land was still made for them. Memo to Ehrenreich: It has always been fashionable to complain about how bad America is.
The truth is that since Ehrenreich's 1940s and 1950s childhood, American living standards have risen grandly. We are living longer and earning more. Yet in Ehrenreich's view, everything is falling apart, and America is about to "become one of those areas of the world prefixed by the mournful word former." It's a grim take--but thankfully, it's not universally shared. Senator Barack Obama, for instance, has described his own food-stamps-to-millionaire journey as evidence of what's right with America. Maybe in time the social critic who views herself as the champion of the working class will get the message, too.
This is this incredible place where, unlike in many countries in Europe, you aren't chained to a social station in life by virtue of who you were born to. I mean, look at Oprah and any number of other people who've come from nothing and who've gone on to a whole lot of something.
Oh, and P.S. I "tend to favor the fashions available at the Salvation Army." That's not a "sad truth." You can get some pretty groovy stuff there. In fact, somebody did a story on me for a libertarian magazine (not reason...and I think it'll be out before the end of the year), and for the photo, I wore a body-hugging denim Guess shirt I got at Salvation Army for $5, and a vintage necklace I bought on eBay for $3.
Oh yes, we have it soooooo in America. That's why I'm sitting on my ass in my lovely home on a paid Friday off, typing this message on my new computer (the old one shit the bed), and lamenting the fact that soon I'll be picking up my dear friend for lunch and using my new GPS while driving up the CT coast looking for a new restauant to try. Oh boo hoo, poor me. /sarcasm
Why is it that so many people are so friggin' pessimistic?? I LOVE my life, even the shitty parts I have to deal with (like Ex), because the shitty things help me appreciate the good things all the more. Of course, YMMV.
Flynne at August 1, 2008 5:26 AM
Heh. Meant soooooooo bad! o_O
Flynne at August 1, 2008 5:26 AM
"Why is it that so many people are so friggin' pessimistic??" That would cause they either don't travel abroad or when the do they go through vacation packages, which glance over the real state of the area to placate tourists. Nothing I love more than so dip shit college student extolling the virtues of communist Russia. How everyone had it so great back then and all the horros of WWII and the purges were an invention of our fascist government.
"My son followed up his Ivy League education with years of phone answering and fact-checking before joining me as one of the tiny number of self-supporting freelance writers who do not have the advantage of a trust fund." So just like most of us without trust funds (and many with actually) he had to do a bit of searching to find his career path. I'm guessing he would prefer the to be told that he had a specific job and that was it. The job is guaranteed but if you don't like it your a traitor to the people and will be ostracized or shot. Poor poor boy how does he live with himself everyday.
vlad at August 1, 2008 6:04 AM
Look, we've got problems, and plenty of stuff in need of changing in America, but all in all, it's better to be American than a citizen of any other country.
Maybe so.
(Although the US notoriously ranks second to last - with Hungary, Poland, Malta and Slovakia -among industrialized nations in low newborn mortality scores. Only Latvia has a more dismal record. I've looked at many comparative tables & they generally tell a similar story..feel free to throw in your own!)
But answer a paid polemicist like Barbara Ehrenreich with more polemics, and you sound as goofily unhinged as she does.
No one should ever seriously parrot Sean Hannity!
Colbert did a lovely sly item recently on Hannity's pottily-patriotic soundbite that the US was - from memory - 'the best greatest country ever created by God for mankind on the face of this earth'.
The funny thing is, Australians say the same about Oz, the French are notorious for saying it about France, ditto home lovin' Canadians I've met, and Germans, and Italians and Brits - and my brother knows no country could possibly top New Zealand!
Jody Tresidder at August 1, 2008 7:42 AM
You have smart and brave views( brave because the in thing in your circles, I'd imagine, is to be a lefty and that your views give you grief) and you really know how to get all rightiously indignant about Bank of America. But, when someone talked to you (on the phone) about an injustice that is far worse than what you have gone through with Bank of America, you told them to "get a life," and "move on."
What's the deal? Inconsistant hypocrite or just misinformed?
l at August 1, 2008 7:45 AM
Jody: The explanation for why the US moratilty rate is so high id here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_mortality.
The definition of live births is different. In many countries they simply count it as a still bearth while the US will count it as a alive birth.
"But, when someone talked to you (on the phone) about an injustice that is far worse than what you have gone through with Bank of America, you told them to "get a life," and "move on."" Just enlighten us filthy heathens what this injustice would be, Animal Rights or Abortion would be my first guess.
vlad at August 1, 2008 7:54 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2008/08/01/other_countries.html#comment-1575676">comment from lFirst of all, I'm not "a lefty" and you don't know fuck all about my "circles." I'm going to a dinner tonight where Chief Bratton and Ann Coulter sometimes show. And I've just become friends with a really cool sergeant/detective in the LAPD. P.S. She wears Manolos to work, not Birkenstocks. See, people are not as easily pigeonholed as tiny little minded people like you make them out to be. FYI, I'm a fiscal conservative, and socially libertarian, and I'm helping one of my friends, one of probably five Republicans in Beverly Hills, to catch on tape the people who were stealing her "Elect George Bush!" signs from her lawn (when, surely, they'll go after the McCain signs she'll soon put up).
Back to the topic at hand, Bank of America and the way you contend I'm a "inconsistent hypocrite" for not letting go, I'll say the same thing I said yesterday when you posted as "Ruth":
Who are you? What's your agenda? Do you work for B of A?
I didn't let the fact that I was the victim of a car thief or a hit-and-run driver roll off me either. I tracked both and had both prosecuted. When I was in court when Leo Laine, the hit-and-run driver was prosecuted, the judge thanked me, and said if it was only thanks to me that the guy was brought to justice. Perhaps, due to me, he didn't hit you.
I have a friend who dumped me this year. My best friend. After 15 years of friendship. I proofread the dissertation for his Ph.D. I'm really not sure why. I'm sad about it but I accept it. I mean, what else is there to do? Do you understand the difference between a human relationship that's over and a bank that is spectacularly negligent, and apparently not just as a fluke, and needs to be exposed for it? Do you need me to spell the difference out to you in one-syllable words?
Again, I'm not after Bank of America because I didn't get my money back. I could've taken out a loan and hired identity theft lawyer Mari Frank and probably gotten a big payout. But, that surely, per what Mari told me, would've meant me signing a statement of confidentiality. In other words, I'd be paid off to shut up -- I'd be okay, but other people wouldn't have any idea of my experience of Bank of America's "security": giving my money to thieves with a fake driver's license with the wrong expiration date. No PIN. The sig was not verified to be mine. SEVEN TIMES. Excuse me if I don't find that a fluke...seven separate times, in branches in Texas and around Sacramento.
Furthermore, I found out something important in my investigation: A BofA employee told me that California's BofA computers "aren't in the database nationally." That BofA's around the country don't have access to the same database. And in a test I had a friend run at a BofA in the midwest, they didn't even ask to see his license. No license check, no PIN, no bankcard, no signature verification. The teller just gave him the money. Then there was the test two girls who read me were inspired to do in another BofA branch. Similar level of "verification."
Don't you think this is something other BofA customers should know?
And who are you and what is your real agenda?
Did I suggest you "get over it" in a relationship issue -- maybe in a letter your boyfriend wrote? Do you not understand the difference between pursuing justice by trying to expose injustice and hanging on after a relationship is over?
And don't post under different names on my site -- different anonyweeny names -- and think I'm not smart enough to track you down. Asshat.
Amy Alkon at August 1, 2008 7:58 AM
"I'll say the same thing I said yesterday when you posted as "Ruth":" Where I can't find it. Amy what horrible injustice did you shrug off with you hate fueled indifference? How could you do such a horrible thing as give someone sound advice? Oh the horror!!!
Jumping up and down waving my hands done, still curious though.
vlad at August 1, 2008 8:12 AM
Okay, I just figured out who Ruth is and who "l" is above -- most likely either somebody who I just discovered has violated a restraining order against her (by posting something defamatory elsewhere on my site about that person), or the sister of the girl who has the restraining order against her, and I'll be sending the information on to the person who has the restraining against her.
Amy Alkon at August 1, 2008 8:15 AM
Sorry Amy but you are being much too ethnocentric for my tastes. "better to be American than a citizen of any other country"...blah. Bullshit and more bullshit and keep it to yourself. I am Canadian and quite proud and happy of the fact. Stuff your "American is best" bullshit. It may be for you, but the rest of us don't necessarily think so.
sorrybabe at August 1, 2008 8:17 AM
"Stuff your "American is best" bullshit." Kiss my furry immigrant white ass princess.
vlad at August 1, 2008 8:23 AM
Sorry Amy but you are being much too ethnocentric for my tastes. "better to be American than a citizen of any other country"...blah. Bullshit and more bullshit and keep it to yourself. I am Canadian and quite proud and happy of the fact. Stuff your "American is best" bullshit.
Do you think your level of "free speech" is really the ideal? Why not have an intelligent discussion about why you think your country is better and has more to offer -- tell us stuff, perhaps, we should emulate -- rather than have an exchange on the level of two drunks in the stands at a football field.
Amy Alkon at August 1, 2008 8:26 AM
Vlad, I'm with you there, but "furry"...? Now, every time you post...!
Amy Alkon at August 1, 2008 8:29 AM
And her lame-ass son wouldn't be a freelance writer if not for his mother, blazing the trail. He could have gone to law school, like his sister.
Barbara feels that the USA should have a public intellectual stipend, paid daily, for people like her. In France, her kid would be working for the government. In England, he'd be unemployed.
Kate at August 1, 2008 8:31 AM
Jody: The explanation for why the US moratilty rate is so high id here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_mortality.
The definition of live births is different. In many countries they simply count it as a still bearth while the US will count it as a alive birth.
Vlad,
Fair call.
I am familiar with the concept that the US is "punished" for, effectively, over-scrupulous accounting. If you look, however, only at the US figures - as a snapshot only of the US - there appears to be a woefully uneven country-wide quality of care.
I should say, though, that I am personally totally aghast at US healthcare. It's a rotten, criminally wasteful joke from top to bottom. Don't even get me started on the Ingenix (healthcare accounting) scandal in NY. I'm a bore - and a socialist, on this topic, and an evil immigrant ingrate to boot. And I don't give a shit what the US healthcare boosters here think. You're all wrong. Even though personally, I'm fine - because of outstanding work-connected coverage. But when I look at the way my family's costs are calculated, it makes me ill.)
As for Amy's BofA fight?
I admire her unconditionally.
I think it's (trivially) hugely entertaining, Amy makes me feel like lazy roadkill for all the times I've been ground down by official stonewalling from banks (though with UK banks, actually). I doubt she'll get legal satisfaction over the matter of the dereliction of the bank's basic duty - but I'm followed every riveting syllable here. So, thanks Amy. And keep going!
Jody Tresidder at August 1, 2008 8:45 AM
Don't doubt I'll get satisfaction -- it's just not instant, unfortunately...especially unfortunate, I believe, for all the people who still have money there.
And thanks.
Amy Alkon at August 1, 2008 8:48 AM
"Sorry Amy but you are being much too ethnocentric for my tastes. "better to be American than a citizen of any other country"..."
Uh...American is not an ethnicity. You are well named.
OTOH, I run into a lot of people who have taken American cictzenship, and I always ask them why. It's one thing if you come form some place where you have no real citizenship, but these are French and Mexicans and Chinese, and I have a hard time understanding why someone would give that up. Permanent legal residence here makes sense, but citizenship is like your family name.
Jim at August 1, 2008 9:32 AM
Just wondering what your opinion of the quality of life in the Netherlands was (not Amsterdam, but the rest of the country, since it seems you've traveled a lot in Europe and I've only been to London, Moscow, Leningrad (it was '81) and Romania. Everyone I've met from there and everything I've seen and read seems like it would be an awesome place to live. Plus, I hate cars and love bicycles;)
It seems there has been some trolling in these comments, so this article is relevant (and damn fascinating)...
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/03/magazine/03trolls-t.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Hasan at August 1, 2008 9:47 AM
In order to vote in some elections you need to have citizenship.
_ http://tiny.cc/iCvZe
"I should say, though, that I am personally totally aghast at US healthcare." For the under or uninsured I agree with you, horrific. However having great work related coverage I love the quality of care I have received so far, again in top level US hospitals (different story at say Leonard Moris NY). Cost is an entirely different matter.
vlad at August 1, 2008 10:09 AM
"citizenship is like your family name"
Yes - easily changed if you're not happy with it.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at August 1, 2008 10:11 AM
"Vlad, I'm with you there, but "furry"...? Now, every time you post...!" Yup picture wookie only shorter and a little wider :)
vlad at August 1, 2008 10:12 AM
Jim, Ethnocentric, if you look it up, doesn't always have to do with ethnicity. It can be the belief that your group, race, culture or country is superior. The definition varies by the place you look, but since country and culture are definitely included... whoever said that is not wrong.
Well, save for telling for Amy to shove it, which is quite immature.
I personally am Canadian, and there are a lot of things, bureaucracy-wise, that this country could work on... crap like the above article attests to that.
However, as far as quality of life goes, I think that 90% of Canadians are pretty happy with our country. Which is good, it doesn't hurt to be a little patriotic.
I'm fairly certain that most people from western countries roll their eyes when someone from a different country says "MINE IS THE BEST." There's no need to be an asshole about it. After all, if everyone's so happy to be where they're at, why fight, even if the other people are wrong?
may at August 1, 2008 10:19 AM
1st time commenter here.. go easy!
Her son sounds like a little entitled shit, who got his point of view from his entitled little shit of a mother. Who cares where he graduated from? Education isn't experience and you have to start at the bottom and work your way up. Having a degree can allow you to move up faster or higher (in some cases) but it doesn't give you a free pass to jump to the head of the line and be a CEO at 22, no matter how fancy or expensive your degree is!
I love America, yes it has flaws, but I'm happy here. I also haven't traveled much, so I'm a little sheltered compared to some. I'm sure people like me in other countries feel the same way about their own country.
And about Amy's BofA fight... I think it is great she is fighting and hope she is successful. I have $3 in a BofA account and I just do that because when I travel I sometimes put money in the account so I can go to an ATM without being charged a fee. My local bank is great but I refuse to pay ATM fees when I travel but I hate carrying a lot of cash on me.
Casey at August 1, 2008 10:21 AM
The last sentence of my previous comment was supposed to be:
"...why fight, even if other people are WRONG ON THE INTERNET? It's ridiculous."
I for some reason lost my train of thought and ended it mid-sentence. Awesome.
may at August 1, 2008 10:22 AM
"(Although the US notoriously ranks second to last - with Hungary, Poland, Malta and Slovakia -among industrialized nations in low newborn mortality scores. Only Latvia has a more dismal record. I've looked at many comparative tables & they generally tell a similar story..feel free to throw in your own!)"
Well, let me throw in this...do any of the countries measured against the US take in as many immigrants? I'll bet that skews the statistics a great deal.
the wolf at August 1, 2008 10:25 AM
sorrybabe:
Let me educate your arrogant Canadian ass.
Americans subsidize every aspect of your life. You get your drugs cheap because of us. You get to have a tiny military budget because of your proximity to us. You get your television from us.
P.J. O'Rourke put it far better than I ever could while berating a brit:
Excerpted without permission from "Holidays in Hell" - "Among the Euro-Weenies"
brian at August 1, 2008 10:31 AM
For the under or uninsured I agree with you, horrific.
I don't know, when my daughter was born 15 years ago I didn't have any medical insurance. I went to a clinic of doctors for my pre-natal care and they helped me with the arrangements with the hospital when it was time for my delivery. I, obviously, didn't have a private room and I was fortunate to have a very easy pregnancy and delivery, but everyone was very nice. It did take me a couple of years to pay everyone off, but I never got any harassing calls or anything and they were very happy to work with me to set up payment arrangements.
I'm certainly not saying our medical system is perfect or anything close, but I do think that a lot of people want to get expensive, unnecessary treatment and then don't want to pay. And then everyone else wonders why the simplest things are so expensive.
Kristyle at August 1, 2008 10:34 AM
Vlad,
Thanks for a conciliatory response!
(I didn't really feel like a comment war about US healthcare - and I don't have a clue how one begins to effectively dismantle this pernicious system...shit, there I go again! As I said, like you I'm a privileged, insurance-padded immigrant - and I'm still full of rage on the subject. So I'll shut up:))
Jody Tresidder at August 1, 2008 10:34 AM
P.J. O'Rourke put it far better than I ever could while berating a brit...
Brian,
That's why I'm a terrible liberal! O'Rourke's brilliantly rollicking epitaph for every cross-eyed bar room blowhard in this wonderful country of yours still makes me smile!
Jody Tresidder at August 1, 2008 10:47 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2008/08/01/other_countries.html#comment-1575767">comment from brianBrian, thanks - pure poetry. I have to get a copy of that.
Here's a link for anyone else who wants one:
Holidays in Hell: In Which Our Intrepid Reporter Travels to the World's Worst Places and Asks, "What's Funny About This" (O'Rourke, P. J.)
Amy Alkon at August 1, 2008 10:52 AM
"P.J. O'Rourke put it far better than I ever could while berating a brit:" And then someone like P.J. opens his mouth and I switch to unaccented Russian and hope no one notices to avoid being associated with him.
I love this country and the fact that it gives the freedom of speech to bombastic bigots. Just wish they did not feel the need to use there freedom loud enough to make me look stupid.
There is a difference between loving your country and hating everyone else's.
vlad at August 1, 2008 10:53 AM
Uh, Vlad, I believe he's exaggerating for humorous effect.
Amy Alkon at August 1, 2008 11:01 AM
I have been living in Germany off and on for about the last 18yrs. and can say that things are pretty much the same all over.
Don't get me wrong, I will always consider myself to be an American and have a deep love for my country. But, most European countries do have freedom of speech and equality in the workplace laws. They may not sound the same, but they are there. And I am rather happy living here.
America isn't the "Greatest Country in the World", it is the greatest country for Americans. Just like England is the best for the English and Germany or France is the best for there people. It will almost always be a matter of perspective.
Matthew at August 1, 2008 11:05 AM
Off topic..
Vlad,
Have you ever caught the 2007 David Cronenberg movie Eastern Promises? About Russian mobsters on the loose in London?
I Netflixed it recently & thought it was terrific entertainment (even though I didn't see the 'famous' plot twist coming, which apparently means I'm thick!).
Jody Tresidder at August 1, 2008 11:22 AM
"Uh, Vlad, I believe he's exaggerating for humorous effect." He is I know, but I have met enough people who talk the same way (bar room blow hards) that actually believe it.
vlad at August 1, 2008 11:26 AM
"Have you ever caught the 2007 David Cronenberg movie Eastern Promises?" Strange that you would mention that. I was going to pick it up tonight on my way home.
I love the US and any one who makes us and by association me look stupid erks me.
vlad at August 1, 2008 11:28 AM
Jody - I'll agree with you on the HMO and Medicare systems - they need to go.
And the very last thing we need is for the government to have anything but a cursory role in the medical industry from that point forward.
In other words, beyond consumer protection laws and accreditation, the government needs to stay the fuck out of it.
brian at August 1, 2008 11:37 AM
This is precisely the outcome that worries me.
Yes, they have treated her in the past. Now they don't want to pay for a treatment that doesn't meet their guidelines for life extension.
But that's not where the problem lies.
The problem lies with their response to her request for this treatment, which boils down to "Well, we won't pay for the experimental chemo, but we will pay for a doctor to drug you into a stupor or kill you".
I said many moons ago that if physician-assisted suicide became the law of the land that it would eventually be offered as a "treatment option" for the terminally ill.
I also said that this was more likely to happen (and likely to become compulsory) with a government-run healthcare rationing scheme.
Government health insurance: The customer service of DMV, the efficiency of the post office, the competence of the CIA.
brian at August 1, 2008 12:00 PM
"America isn't the "Greatest Country in the World", it is the greatest country for Americans. Just like England is the best for the English and Germany or France is the best for there people. It will almost always be a matter of perspective."
Wow, so you can list a small number of the most advanced and developed countries in the entire world as counter-argument ... have you travelled much? In reality there are over 200 countries, many of them ARE hellholes, and there are countless millions of people the world over who would desperately love to get into the US and become American. People are dying to get in ... figuratively and literally. (Here in South Africa if you claim that South Africa is the 'greatest country in the world' most people would think you have a mental disorder, millions are leaving, even though this is the most advanced country in Africa of about 50 countries on this continent alone.)
Of all the "modern Western" countries, America seems to (roughly) most closely approximate, particularly in spirit, libertarian ideals (though today it's far from libertarian, but still better than most comparable developed countries), and have the best protections therefor. And personally I'm a particular fan of the Second Amendment.
David J at August 1, 2008 12:11 PM
And the very last thing we need is for the government to have anything but a cursory role in the medical industry from that point forward.
In other words, beyond consumer protection laws and accreditation, the government needs to stay the fuck out of it.
But Brian!
I need your democracy-lovin' mission statement before we get down to brass tacks here!
(And I'm just a permanent resident alien without voting rights at present, remember!)
Jody Tresidder at August 1, 2008 12:17 PM
"it would eventually be offered as a "treatment option" for the terminally ill." I don't see anything wrong with it becoming a treatment option. I do completely agree with you on that it should never be even close to compulsory. An ethical doctor should give the patients the option but only when all reasonable (from the patient's and doctor's perspective) options have been exhausted. This does not mean that if all options are exhausted that the patient should be pushed into it.
If the doctor says that the only treatment option is a very expensive treatment that has a less than 5% success rate and won't improve my quality of life (or make it worse) I'd like the option to just end it.
While the tone of the insurance company letter was horrid I don't see anything ethically wrong with it, shit PR though. We will not pay for an experimental treatment that has little if any chance of success, not nice but reasonable. We will pay for palative care for you, again reasonable you have the choice of doing the palative care. Now had they have stopped there no one would be horrified, cold as their decision is. Now they add in the assisted suicide angle and people starts thinking they want to take granny out back and old yeller her.
vlad at August 1, 2008 12:22 PM
"Jody - I'll agree with you on the HMO and Medicare systems - they need to go." The thing is that in the case you listed without Medicare/Medicaid she would have gotten no treatment. So instead of no chemo but we will elevate the pain it becomes, your broke tough shit, we can't help you live or die.
vlad at August 1, 2008 12:32 PM
"it would eventually be offered as a "treatment option" for the terminally ill." I don't see anything wrong with it becoming a treatment option. I do completely agree with you on that it should never be even close to compulsory.
I completely agree with you, vlad. I remember going to visit my grandmother in the nursing home when I was a small child. She had had a series of strokes and could literally do nothing but move her eyes and the fingers of one hand and it went on like that for years. It's been my nightmare ever since to be kept alive like that in pain and unable to do anything at all. I have no idea if that is the case with the person referenced by brian, but the option of assisted suicide itself isn't the same as saying "well, you've become too expensive so we've decided to send you to that big farm in the sky."
Kristyle at August 1, 2008 12:38 PM
Vlad - absent government interference, there would be plenty of opportunities for her to receive care.
Say what you will about Americans, but we are the most generous people on the planet. I have no doubt that there would be private charities that would take care of the terminally ill without resorting to "well, this experimental drug might make your remaining time suck a bit less, but it's too expensive, so why don't you be a good little lady and die already".
It starts with some low-level flunky writing a letter. Eventually, these kinds of people end up in power, and then it's not so much a suggestion any more.
I give you the food police as a prime example of this tendency.
Also, it's been mentioned elsewhere that the drug company has hooked her up with a year of the drug for free.
brian at August 1, 2008 12:39 PM
"do nothing but move her eyes and the fingers of one hand and it went on like that for years." NOTHING has ever terrified me more, sorry you had to watch that. No one should ever have to go through that by decree of the federal government. Same coin different side. The right to self direction is precisely what we are talking about. The government must not have the right to simply execute someone who has only guilty of being sick. They should also not be allowed to torture you against your will in the name of preventing the former from ever happening.
""well, this experimental drug might make your remaining time suck a bit less, but it's too expensive, so why don't you be a good little lady and die already"." I don't know what drug it is but if it's chemo (which I'm almost certain of) then no it would make her remaining days worse with little if any chance of survival. Yes it should be her choice but if the drug companies are giving it to her any way why is she going through the state funded medical program.
vlad at August 1, 2008 12:52 PM
"why is she going through the state funded medical program." Sorry missed the last part of the comment I'm guessing they gave it to her after she was denied coverage.
vlad at August 1, 2008 12:58 PM
Yep. the big eeeeeeeevil drug companies step up when government and insurance fails.
brian at August 1, 2008 1:13 PM
you know what i hate? when someone says the United States has some problems, and people go off the chain and say, "oh, but we're better than others'.
So. f-ing. what.
pointing out someone else's flaws does not exculpate the problems this country faces.
j.d. at August 1, 2008 1:27 PM
"pointing out someone else's flaws does not exculpate the problems this country faces." No but if they have more serious or pervasive problems that would make this a better place than there.
Don't remember when any of us stated that the US did not have problems that need to be fixed, or that should not be fixed just cause it's better than the rest of the world. However the stuff that Ehrenreich is gripping about is not a problem.
vlad at August 1, 2008 1:37 PM
I don't know how much of a choice I have in my nationality - most Americans are not freely employable in other countries. (I can write and read French and Spanish, but have a hard time speaking the language.)
All I can do is try to make *my* country as good as it can be - I don't want the government listening in on my phone calls, telling me I can't watch "blasphemous" or "obscene" television or read the same kind of books, or attacking people in peaceful political rallies like the one you illustrate the story with.
The evidence on how "good" a country is is how many people are trying to get into a country vs. out....people complain about "illegals", yet they show that the United States is so much better than Mexico that people will risk their lives crawling through 110 degree deserts with predatory "coyotes" to get to our country.
The United States is good. We can be better, but we're not Zimbabwe (where hyperinflation rivals 1920s Germany) or Saudi Arabia (where gangs of religious thugs beat women who don't observe medieval dress codes).
Aaron V. at August 1, 2008 2:10 PM
> In many countries they simply
> count it as a still bearth while
> the US will count it as a alive
> birth
Fascinating
> and you sound as goofily
> unhinged as she does
You recommend paralysis in the face of bad rhetoric?
> I am Canadian and quite proud
> and happy of the fact.
By happenstance, you live under the shelter of the American military and security umbrella, much like a early-twenties college grad living in the room over Dad's garage. Presumably, we haven't seen the best you have to offer yet. But we're watching for it.
> I am personally totally aghast
> at US healthcare.
Not "totally"... You're still here. It's your very "personal" fulfillment that undermines your claims of distress. I, personally, am aghast at Cuban healthcare... And let's not even talk about, say, India.
> P.J. O'Rourke put it far
> better than I ever could
Ahem.
| ar•ri•viste
|
| Pronunciation: (ar"e—ve-st';
| Fr. a-re--ve-st')
| —n.,
| —pl. -vistes
| Pronunciation: (-ve-sts';
| Fr. -ve-st').
| a person who has recently acquired
| unaccustomed status, wealth, or
| success, esp. by dubious means
| and without earning concomitant
| esteem.
But more to the point, Brian, it's inexplicable and repugnant to see you writing things like this...
> You get your drugs cheap
> because of us.
... when you're relying on your achievement-minded neighbors for health care. And you do it with a smirk. You are the Canadian of your own personal life, yet you continually claim the grievance of the responsible & righteous conservative as your own.
I can't understand why you do that. Maybe you're blinded by shame.
> O'Rourke's brilliantly rollicking epitaph
“Epitaph”? You've found refuge in a graveyard? You're raising your children in a mausoleum? Tell us more, Jody.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at August 1, 2008 2:10 PM
> America isn't the "Greatest Country
> in the World", it is the greatest
> country for Americans.
No, Darlin', it's the greatest country in the world. But we're learning to be patient with the infantilizing forces in the human heart that want to deny it.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at August 1, 2008 2:11 PM
Whoops! Wrong link for the Parvenu Brian.
Sorry... Long week at work... I'll make it up to you guys sometime, promise
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at August 1, 2008 2:16 PM
A lie. I have 20 grand in the bank. It is you who is relying upon the good graces of others for your medical care, not I.
brian at August 1, 2008 2:29 PM
Dood, 20K isn't even a weekend in a shared room when it really hits the fan.
I miss Lena. Somewhere there's a webpage out there with typical illness & hospitalization costs, but I don't care enough to go find it.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at August 1, 2008 2:36 PM
"pointing out someone else's flaws does not exculpate the problems this country faces."
As vlad pointed out, we're not talking about any 'problem', except for the problem of some insanely distorted sense of entitlement - as if an expectation of trust funds and walking straight into amazing jobs from Ivy League colleges were ordained by God Himself and somebody had conspired to take them away (never mind most countries don't even have such quality educations at all).
David J at August 1, 2008 3:26 PM
> pointing out someone else's flaws
> does not exculpate the problems
> this country faces.
But it does a lot to describe the magnitude of the problem.
I, love, love, love Vlad's comment and infant mortality article in Wikipedia... Because I think it describes about 500% of the problems that people have in --and with-- the United States. (Hi, Jody!)
Life here is so fucking good. It's so reliable, and so carefully balanced, and so rewarding that people can't even see the machinery behind it anymore. Our aggressive infant mortality stats are the perfect example.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at August 1, 2008 5:38 PM
OT
Amy, I thought you might want to run with this story.
Major act of dhimmitude by Tyson Foods in Tennessee ...
http://www.t-g.com/story/1449487.html
Ken at August 1, 2008 7:25 PM
In a country where many guides to saving money include such tips as "eat out less" (as opposed to not doing so at all), I'd have to say, yeah, I think we're doing pre-tty well for ourselves.
That, and I lived next door to a family who had the crappiest house on the block but the best cars and stereo systems to go with them. Consider an earlier thing Amy wrote about some folks with granite counters that whined about not being able to afford insurance. A lot of us can, well, choose how to waste our money. Granted there's no perfect picture in any country, but I can think of the citizens of a few countries who wold, as the thing was titled, "Wish they could suck like America does."
JMoczy at August 1, 2008 8:48 PM
As for the livability of Amsterdam...have you heard anything about a Muslim problem there? I probably wouldn't last 15 minutes, speaking my mind. I frequently think of poor Theo Van Gogh, murdered by Mohammed Bouyeri in 2004 for his views on the backward death cult known as Islam.
Amy Alkon at August 2, 2008 1:12 AM
My parents have visited friends in Amsterdam twice and loved it. I guess, like everywhere else, there are good areas and not so good areas. Just yesterday a guy was stabbed 50+ times and then beheaded on a Greyhound bus just west of here - no Muslims involved. Not the sort of thing one expects to happen in Canada.
And on a really weird note: heard on the news tonight some woman in the US found a Cheeto that she thinks looks like Jesus on the cross. She announced she in not going to sell it on eBay, but she is going to rent a safety deposit box and keep Cheeto Jesus in it forever. Now there's a gal with too much disposable income!
catspajamas at August 2, 2008 2:18 AM
No, Darlin', it's the greatest country in the world.
No, no Crid! Don't be shy! You gotta give us the full Sean Hannity quote!
"America is the best greatest country ever created by God for mankind on the face of this earth!"
(You can, of course, leave out the God bit if you like.)
Jody Tresidder at August 2, 2008 8:28 AM
"My son followed up his Ivy League education with years of phone answering and fact-checking before joining me as one of the tiny number of self-supporting freelance writers who do not have the advantage of a trust fund."
So, let me get this straight. Her son thinks that because he went to an IVY LEAGUE school, he shouldn't have to begin his career with an entry-level position and work his way up? Sounds like mommy never made him EARN any rewards when he was growing up. The school systems are falling in with that habit, too.
There was an opinion column in my local paper discussing just that problem.
http://www.mccookgazette.com/story/1449584.html
For the record, I don't plan on letting my kids be that spoiled. Like I said in another thread, at some point you have to realize that you can't protect your kids from the world.
Sandy at August 2, 2008 8:57 AM
> You gotta give us the
> full Sean Hannity
This guy is a big figure in your life. I haven't made much time for him, m'self...
Y'know, Jode-meister, contrarianism isn't a mechanized process. You still have to think about stuff, and weigh meanings and purposes and (most of all) contexts. If you try to save yourself the homework by just deciding “I'll always disagree with this-or-that person,” then you'll soon get into trouble. Because you can't trust anyone to maintain a predictable moral path, whether in opposition to your own beliefs or to anything else.
As today. Because...
| America is the best greatest
| country ever
...boyfriend is right.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at August 2, 2008 12:39 PM
PS- That's why you live here, and raise your children here. Right?
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at August 2, 2008 12:40 PM
David J.- To answer your question, read the damn post. I live in Germany now, of course I have traveled. I have been through all of Europe and have traveled in Asia and Africa. I think that I can be counted as well traveled.
I said that most people will look at there country and see it as the best place to live. Of course there are places in the world that I wouldn't send my worst enemy to, but there are also some really nice places as well. It is only arrogance that disallows for others to think that there country or beliefs are the best. Yes, America has alot to offer to the world, but so do other places.
I am an American, and proud to be one; but I don't walk aroung acting like it is the best place on the planet. America does not have the best Health Care or Education systems in the world. We have a great country and we have much to be proud of, but when we let are pride get in the way of a desire to be better; then we are only endangering ourselves and our childrens future.
And as an afternote, Germany also has freedom of Speech. Grundrecht: Article 5.
Matthew at August 4, 2008 1:09 AM
> America does not have the best
> Health Care or Education systems
> in the world.
Au contraire, mon frère
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at August 4, 2008 1:23 AM
Crid- Au contraire, mon frére.
My fríends, according to the WHO (World Health Organization) the United States is Nr. 37
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
As far as childrens well-being:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-02-14-unicef-child-wellbeing_x.htm
I don't post this to justify anything, but thinking we are the best is not the reality we live in. We have to do better!
Matthew at August 4, 2008 2:36 AM
Aw Matthew, why bother? Why not just move?
(That's what Jody did....)
Furthermore, see Vlad's note above about spurious metrics.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at August 4, 2008 1:04 PM
Plus, it's fun to look at that list, and imagine how much money those nations would have for health care or anything else if the United States weren't guaranteeing their border security, the reliability of the shipping and communications, and price of their exports (etc etc etc)
The United States of America is where the action is. There's no need to be bashful about it. Actually, being coy gets people killed, so it's best to be blunt.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at August 4, 2008 1:07 PM
Matthew - the WHO studies all use self-reported numbers.
We know that the communist nations lie.
We also know that the Europeans have different definitions for success versus the United States.
You want a better comparison, look at time to treatment, survivability after treatment (especially cancer), and survivability for premature infants.
We beat everyone in all of those categories.
Look at innovations per year, and we kick them all in the ass again.
I don't know how much better you want us to do. Unless by "better" you mean "financed by the labor of others so I can buy more shit for myself". And Crid - that sentence comes with a pre-emptive shut the fuck up just for you.
brian at August 4, 2008 1:17 PM
Brian - I mean better because we have the best Universities in the World. We have some of the best doctors in the World, but they are hampered by rules and regulations at every turn. Who qualifies for care, who doesn't. It makes me sick to look at all the injustices we see in that field. HMO's denying care to people, because it might cost money to make them well. Not cool!!!
Crid - I am an American, living in a different country to practice my profession. I work in the International Hotel Industry, I go where the work is. Don't ever condesced to me, I was a soldier for close to 10 yrs. and earned my Purple Heart.
I am neither a Republican or a Democrat, I am an Independent who picks who he thinks will do the best job. At the moment I am not happy with either candidate, but time will show who really has the better ideas and plans for the future.
Matthew at August 4, 2008 11:16 PM
Well, don't say silly things.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at August 5, 2008 1:52 AM
Well, if you're voting ideas and not charisma, then the choice is obvious. Because everything Obama believes has been tried before - in the Soviet Union.
I'll leave it as an exercise to the man in unified Germany to look up how that little experiment worked out.
brian at August 5, 2008 5:25 AM
Brian,
The wonderful parts of the USA do not include your system of healthcare.
Your "ass kicking" comments apply to many aspects of life here - but not to the relationship between per capita healthcare spending - and results.
Your demented army of healthcare lobbyists continue to keep the system rigged, and I'd say 'shoot the fucking lot of 'em' except I'm a liberal on this issue, so that's out:)
Feel free to proclaim your happy patriotism on any other topic, feel free to rubbish commie country statistics, feel free to pin selectively critical immigrants like moi up against the pool table and tell us to go home, or whatever, if we dare to complain (a rude, but understandable response!) about healthcare here.
But quit insisting that (approaching) 50 million uninsured citizens in this country is a symptom of a system doing just dandy. It's not.
Jody Tresidder at August 5, 2008 6:39 AM
We are pretty far from the best in freedom, not just health care:
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/07/23/new_churchcomm/index.html
Kara at August 5, 2008 12:48 PM
No. You quit insisting that the number you cite contains any meaning at all.
Insurance does not equate to care. It doesn't equate to availability of care. And it doesn't equate to quality of care.
Show me the hospitals in the United States where there are vermin in the operating theater.
Show me the hospitals in the United States that close down in October for lack of funding.
Our health care system is bar none the best on the planet. The idiotic method of funding it while hiding the costs from the consumer is not. And any system that seeks to FURTHER hide the costs of care is EVEN STUPIDER.
Socialized medicine is stupid for the same reason socialism is. Socialism CANNOT WORK ON HUMANS. Any system that divorces actions from consequences IS GOING TO FAIL.
The answer to the so-called "health care crisis" in America is to get the government the fuck out of it.
Take away the employer tax deduction for health insurance benefits. Take away the locality restrictions on insurance purchases. Take away the minimum required coverage laws.
In other words, make health insurance, insurance.
What we have now is an elaborate scheme to transfer money and power to government owned and government protected bureaucracies at the expense of doctors and patients.
The only way to stop it is to get the government out of the way and stop them obscuring everything behind arcane semi-socialist bullshit.
You want socialized medicine? Go back to England. Otherwise, please stop suggesting that my country fuck itself over as hard as the land of your birth by adopting their failed policies.
brian at August 7, 2008 10:04 AM
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