You know, more and more, I have this fantasy that we'll have birth control pills ground up into all the drinking water, and you'll have to get a waiver from a battery of shrinks before you get to foist your offspring on the rest of us.

If only.

Here's the thing, though, if you're not enough of a person to break up with someone in person, what the hell was I doing with you in the first place? That's being disrespectful to the other person, and to yourself. Carrie Bradshaw said it best, something along the lines of you can stop worrying about being the bad guy, and have the break-up conversation, because not having the break up conversation? That's what makes you the bad guy. She's right, you know.

Or her writers were, anyway!

That's the point I was making at the top. It's the price of doing relationship business. It's the bill that comes due at the end of the meal. The correct thing to do is pay it, not put on a hat and sunglasses and slink out the service entrance.

You're missing something.

This means spammers can send you messages without ringing your phone. Some phone companies don't block those. Time to go buy ammunition.

A couple years ago, some guy I was seeing for about 6 weeks broke up with me via email. After the initial shock and disappointment I was so relieved - up until then I actually thought he was quality. In that single act he let me know he was in reality a jerk, and I was better off without him. I said as much in my reply, and I was actually laughing as I wrote it. About a month later he called, but I ignored him. Haven't seen or heard from him since.

OK, ladies help me understand this. What does a guy get from a face-to-face breakup? Because there are lots of downsides.

A lot of women go ape-shit crazy when things don't go their way. Lots of women think its acceptable to hit men and damage their property, after a breakup. There's the inevitable and pointless "how could you let this go on so long?" and "why did you waste my time like this?"

If this is the responsible and honorable thing to do, I see no evidence of it from women. I've never had a woman say, "at least he broke up with me in person, that showed character." As a guy, you fully expect to be reviled, in any case.

I can't see the benefit for a guy. Also, I can't see why it's a big deal to a woman.

I know most will level insult, but I'm asking an honest question.

> OK, ladies help me understand
> this. What does a guy get from
> a face-to-face breakup?

Can't answer for the ladies, but from the masculine side of things: Self-respect. You ought to be hanging out with women who don't "go ape-shit crazy" anyway. In an adjacent post Amy talks about how women should choose men who are decent to everyone whether they need to be or not. This is kind of the same thing.

Absolutely right, Crid. From having the guts to do the right thing. And in person, at least you can leave them with a hug as a parting gift.

And right, too, on not being with a woman who'd go ape-shit crazy. If somebody doesn't want me, the idea that I would get angry at them is just...nuts. I mean, don't they have a right not to want you? If you still want them, sure, you're going to be sad, upset, miserable. But, screaming and doing property damage?

If that happens to you, look at you, because you're dating unfit partners, and you need to figure out how to figure out they're unfit before they, say, douse your car with lighter fluid and toss the match on.

There's really only one of my ex-boyfriends I'm still in contact with (he calls from New York about once every six months to chat), and while I don't want any of them anymore, I'm fond of them all and don't wish any of them harm; quite the contrary. If you ever really care about somebody, you don't suddenly wish them ill because they're no longer in your life, even if they leave you and you still want them.

And I've had bad boyfriends, too -- in my 20s, that is. I don't blame them. I blame me. And that is how I was able to suss out where I went wrong and avoid bad boyfriends in the future.

We all have choices. If you choose not to look at who you're getting into a thing with, well, that's a choice, too. But, don't come crying to me when she steals your cat and cuts your shirts into tiny pieces. Well, you can, but I'm going to tell you it's your fault for being a poor judge of character.

Here's where I'm getting confused. In my view, dating is the process of discovering if a person is potential relationship material. This process includes vetting crazy women. I assume women qualify men the same way.

Formulating from RS's example, suppose I date a woman for six weeks. I determine she's prone to emotional outbursts, ape-shit craziness.

I can't see what self-respect I'd gain from risking some emotional meltdown. Nor do I see any error in mate selection because that's what dating was supposed to uncover.

We can't be held accountable for selecting incompatible people for dating because dating is the process by which we determine compatibility in the first place. We can expect that most people we date won't be long term relationship material.

Where am I going wrong here?

"OK, ladies help me understand this. What does a guy get from a face-to-face breakup? Because there are lots of downsides. A lot of women go ape-shit crazy when things don't go their way."

Jeff, you seem to assume that only women want the respect of an in-person break-up. As someone with brothers and a lot of male friends, I know that's not true. How would you feel if someone broke up with you by text message? Pretty crappy, I'm betting.

Breaking up in person is simply much more respectful. I've broken up with a number of guys in my day, and had a couple break up with me, and of course the conversation is difficult on both ends. However, in the long run, the break-upee feels more respected, and the break-uper feels more self-respect for having the balls to do the right thing. I'm friends with a couple of exes, and I think it's mainly because we treated one another with respect from beginning to end of the relationship -- especially the end.

You also seem to assume that only women "go ape-shit crazy when things don't go their way." Read the news -- there are at least as many batshit guys who react badly when women break up with them. And frankly, women often have more to fear from a batshit guy than a guy does from a batshit woman, physically speaking. You don't often hear about women killing their ex-boyfriends or their new girlfriends -- at least not nearly as often as you hear about men doing so to their exes. (Just read a story a few days ago about a guy running his car off the sidewalk to kill his ex-girlfriend's new boyfriend.) And is a batshit crazy person going to be less inclined for revenge if he/she is broken up with by text message? I don't think so.

All that being said, I think that relatively few people, male or female, go batshit. They might cry or get a bit upset, but most people aren't going to be slashing your tires or boiling bunnies -- at least in my world. Amy and Crid are right -- if your world is full of bunny-boiling women, you need to take a look at yourself and the kind of women you're choosing.

Also, Jeff, it shouldn't take 6 weeks to weed out batshit crazy. It might take 6 weeks to see if someone has potential for a long-term relationship, but I can generally weed out crazy in one date, maybe two or three tops.

One rule of thumb I have -- if they do something rude or seriously weird on the first date or so, they're history right away. They should have their very best foot forward at that point, and things will only get worse. It may sound draconian, and maybe I've let go of a good guy or so that way -- but I'm willing to take that risk.

Jeff, you seem to assume that only women want the respect of an in-person break-up...You also seem to assume that only women "go ape-shit crazy when things don't go their way." (Gail)

Maybe I'm making too much of a logical point here, but an unstated proposition doesn't imply that it's assumed. I would have erred if I had made a claim that required the truth of some unstated assumption and then later denied the very same assumption. I haven't done that. In fact, I don't agree with either of the assumptions you've invented here. That should put to rest any seeming on my part.

All that being said, I think that relatively few people, male or female, go batshit. They might cry or get a bit upset, but most people aren't going to be slashing your tires or boiling bunnies -- at least in my world. (Gail)

I generally agree. Two important qualifications come to mind: the legendary vindictiveness of the scorned woman, and the problem of false accusations. While I dont' think men are less vindictive, it is true that the law treats violent, ape-shit men very differently than violent, ape-shit women. Men are wise to be prudent about the matter.

Sometimes, it might be better to break up at a distance.

lso, Jeff, it shouldn't take 6 weeks to weed out batshit crazy. It might take 6 weeks to see if someone has potential for a long-term relationship, but I can generally weed out crazy in one date, maybe two or three tops. (Gail)

Men date differently than women. In particular, men fear Type II errors while women fear Type I errors. Men bias their mating strategies, accepting more false positives to eliminate false negatives. It may take a while for a guy to find out he's got a nut on his hands.

We're talking about only a month an a half here. Even dating once every weekend, that's something like a total of 25 hours or so with someone. If you did a few all day events, may more. Still, it's pretty easy for people to suppress their worst aspects for that amount of time.

And I agree with you on this, Gail: any weirdness or rudeness on the first date, and I'm out.

Jeff, you're right that the dating process should weed out the crazies, but it also should weed out the people that are OK but you don't see having a long term relationship with.

I have to agree with Gail, for the most part. If you've had more than two or three dates with someone you've developed at least some level of personal relationship, and the ending of that relationship should be done in person. Because its the right way to do it - civil and honest and up-front. It shows respect to the other person, and it does honour to you. I think Amy said earlier something to the effect that its the way you behave when nobody's looking that shows character. In this case its the way you behave when you don't have to; that is you could get away with dumping someone by e-mail but it denotes a certain lack of character. Whether character is something that's important to you or not also says something about you.

The goodbye could well go badly - if she likes you at all she's going to be unhappy - but you can deal with that, and so can she, if she's an adult.

And some women - the ones you should be hanging around with - tend to take note of guys who do the right thing, as opposed to the easy thing.

Jeff, you're right that the dating process should weed out the crazies, but it also should weed out the people that are OK but you don't see having a long term relationship with. (catspajamas)

Heh. I love that name!

Of course, you're right. I completely agree.

In general, I also agree that "civil and honest and up-front" is best. I do make exceptions for crazies, though.

In my view, the conversation had turned towards blaming people for discovering that a person was crazy during dating. I still think that's the very purpose of dating.

You've actually gone after my original question. You're explaining why we view a face-to-face breakup as the responsible and honorable thing to do. I've learned a bit, so thanks.

And some women - the ones you should be hanging around with - tend to take note of guys who do the right thing, as opposed to the easy thing. (catspajamas)

So the honorable behavior, the face-to-face breakup, is honored by women? This is the part I wonder about. Is it really? I have some number of personal experiences with groups of women talking about ex-boyfriends. I've just never heard "At least he broke up face-to-face" or something like that. Maybe women just won't say something like that when a guy is around?

I'd love to have a discussion about what constitutes honorable behavior from women in general. But we better not because it's off topic.

Thanks for your thoughtful response.

Well, not ALL women - but some women, certainly, take note of honorable behaviour. That's been my experience with the women I hang with, at any rate. We're a discerning bunch : )

Do we talk about it with men? Probably not so much. I tend to avoid talking about the exes when I'm with someone new. I think I read somewhere that was a wise policy (?)

From the web site of the "service" in question, a reason for divorce. Face to face divorce, once he's "bought his time":

Buy yourself some time
You go to a week long convention for work in Las Vegas and blow $5,000 the first night at the roulette table. You need to call your wife and tell her why she should hold off on making the monthly mortgage payment. Her voicemail will be much more understanding then she will.

About Slydial: I LOVE how the people who use it think they are being clever. There have been times that I KNOW when I've gotten Slydialed. It's kind of like you're saying to me, "I don't want to actually TALK to you. I just want you to listen to me."

Jeff wrote:
"I can't see what self-respect I'd gain from risking some emotional meltdown."

Depends on how important the high road is to you.

If she goes all fruit-loopy on you, at least you can walk away knowing that YOU did the right thing. If the woman's the kind who is going to key your car, she's going to do so no matter how you break up with her (face to face, or text message). I'd like to think these kind of people are in the minority. I operate under the assumption that the person I'm breaking up with is sane enough not to regard it as the most earth-shattering event in their life--and that they deserve to be treated with respect. I'd like anyone breaking up with me to think the same.

One small point, maybe tangential....

People who pair well often seem to "slip gears" during short careers of dating. They'll go out with a few people who are inappropriate or hurtful, and then quickly find the one who shelters their heart for five loving decades.

It's like studying multiplication in 3rd grade and mastering linear programming or differential calculus in 4th.

How they do that?

Luck of the draw, Crid. Sometimes.

I agree with Jeff in that it's not always appropriate to do the face to face -- if you truly fear a psycho reaction, for example. Yes, we can argue that we shouldn't have been in that relationship in the first place, but the fact is that we are in it now, and we have to get out. I know I wouldn't risk pointless physical injury in the name of honor.

The other good reason is when the relationship just isn't that big a deal. I dated a nice guy for three months. It always stayed in the realm of "nice." When he stopped calling, it hurt my ego a bit, but I wasn't truly upset about it. The act of not calling told me what I needed to know, and I let it go. There was no need for a dramatic reveal, and I'm OK with the way he did it.

What cowards!

Yes, I can see it if the guy/gal has gone psycho on you. Get home, lock your door and leave a message saying stay away from me. But that's the exception, not the rule. (Or if it's the rule, you'd better do some self-examination as to why you keep making the choices you do.) Yes, we've all seen those life-time movies (or heard the stories in the news) where the victim was nice enough to talk to them face to face one last time and didn't make it out of there alive. But that's when they were already breaking up because of some extreme behavior and, hence, a pretty stupid move on their part.

If someone breaks up with me by phone, I'd shrug them off as a loser I'm well rid of.

One thing, I don't get. Is it really necessary after only two or three dates? That's not a relationship yet so what's to end? If you've only been out on a date a couple of times, just say no thank you the next time they call. If they don't take the hint after a couple of attempts, then I'd say be more direct, on the phone. Why would you need to break up with anyone at all who you haven't a mutually exclusive relationship with?

Flynne, I'd agree, but their kids seem to do the same thing

Also good to remember that exes who find you decent are good references and may eventually even introduce you to somebody you're really into.

People who pair well often seem to "slip gears" during short careers of dating. They'll go out with a few people who are inappropriate or hurtful, and then quickly find the one who shelters their heart for five loving decades....How they do that?

Y'know, this is just today's theory that may be totally ditched tomorrow, but...I think the two situations you're talking about - hurtful/inappropriate relationships and deep, loving, lasting relationships - are in some ways the flip side of one another. The real opposite of true and enduring love isn't deep loathing - it's profound indifference. There's a reason that the notion of two people immediately hating each other who then grow to love one another has persisted the way that it has through fiction (even Shakespeare wasn't immune). To be hurt by someone, typically you have to connect with that someone in some way; to be loved by someone, the same is true.

So, you have people who consciously or subconsciously become open to connecting with someone in a significant way and fairly uninterested in dating someone just to avoid being single. It's just that they don't get things right the first few times around. Armed with the knowledge of the failures, however, one night they go to a bar or to a party or to the hardware store, skip past the non-desirables thanks to their recent experience, and end up chatting with someone for four hours until that person says, "I think this place is closing down - want to find an all-night diner and keep talking?" Etc.

I can't say I've gloried in my failed relationships, but I have definitely learned a lot from each of them - lessons that have served me well in my happy relationships. I know a few people for whom their first loves were their true, enduring loves, and I think that's wonderful, but most of us need some experience with failed love, if only to help provide some perspective when the true loved ones show signs of typical human imperfection.

> just today's theory that may
> be totally ditched tomorrow

That's why we're here, bar wisdom without Shania on the jukebox.

Or drinks. Or sports on cable on bigass LCDs.

I've never loved anyone I used to hate a lot. What I've learned from my failed relationship is what the fuck was I thinking?

failed relationshipS, plural. It would be fun to pretend I'd only bungled one of them

Lemme tells ya a little story, Cridmeister:

Back in the day, right out of high school, I met the man I am with now. I hung out with his younger sister a bit, and some other people we knew in common. Had a brief, very torrid affair with him (he was engaged to someone else at the time). I was an emotional wreck on his wedding day, and one of our mutual friends who wasn't at the wedding got me drunk and kept me from going to the church and making a total ass of myself (thanks, Kenny!).
We ran into each other from time to time, and I always told him to leave me alone, he was married, what the hell did he want from me, etc. and so on. We saw each other at a friend's wake 10 years later and the sparks were still flying. He showed up at my apartment, I screamed at him to leave. He sent me a card with his work number on it and the words "if you call, I will answer". I tore it up and threw it away, crying all the while. Never saw or heard from him again until...five years ago, when I was reading the online obits in my local paper. His father had passed. I wrote a short condolence note, addressed to his sister and him. Left my email address, thinking the sister would get hold of me. Didn't go to the wake or anything. Lo and behold, he emailed me. We started talking again, he told me his wife was leaving him once his daughter graduated from high school. Long story short (yeah, right!), we hooked up and have been together ever since. He told me he would love me for a bazillion years (and 2 days). Never in my life did I ever think we would end up together. Now I cannot imagine my life without him. All the crap I went through with the other guys I dated was worth it, for what I have with him now. We are still just as hot for each other as we were the first day we met. It is truly amazing. I say to myself every morning: I live an enchanted life and am abundantly blessed. o_O

But... did you miss the part about spammers?

"But at the same time, I wanted to avoid an awkward conversation."

In other words, she was weak, a coward and the man's dignity was sacrificed on the altar of her convenience. Not much more to it than that.