LaShawn is 100% correct about that. So too with the labels "sexist", "anti-semite", and even "troll."

Being called one of these is a killer, and invites other people to dogpile and amplify the name calling. It invites official sanctions, and makes you have to defend all your further statements.

And as trump cards go, it's a beaut, because in addition to smearing you, dehumanizing you, and avoiding having to meet your argument, it isolates you nicely. It takes a lot of balls to stand up for someone called "racist", "sexist", "anti-semite" or "troll." "Why are you defending them? You must be a racist or troll too."

Outrageous claims require outrageous evidence. And so claims of racism, sexist, etc., require very strong evidence.

So yes, these are horrible conversation killers and dialog killers and are completely unfair tactics in almost every sort of argument.

LaShawn Barber, who is not an "African-American" woman, but a BLACK woman

An African-American is an American citizen who was born in Africa. An Italian-American is an American citizen who was born in Italy. And so on, and so on...

Thanks for the linkage, Amy! :D

VIC CARS - An African-American is an American citizen who was born in Africa. An Italian-American is an American citizen who was born in Italy. And so on, and so on...

I have always found it fasinating the lengths people will go to try to make them something more than they really are - African American, Italian American. Are you an American or not? That is the only thing that matters, not whether you come from Italy, France or dare I say it AFRICA. Screaming that you aren't an American but an African American isn't showing pride in the African culture but showing that you think that you have to be something more than you are. If we want everyone to be equal than stop creating niches for everybody with a complaint.

Be an American and try to make the your city, neighborhood and block a better place.

And please stop saying someone is a "Racist" just because we see problems with a single mother of 6 children living with a known drug dealer. I don't give a shit if she is white, black, asian or someother color I can't spell. She put her children in danger by living with a drug dealer, deal with the reality not what we wish she would have done.

Amy Alkon,

I think this might have been mentioned before, but the previous thread was very long, so it's easy for it to have been lost.

If you remove all context, then nothing is racist. There are criticisms that are valid coming from within a group compared to from outside. There are things that you feel you could say to your family members that might not be appropriate for someone you are meeting the first time.

There are criticisms that you can level at yourself that are inappropriate coming from someone else.

And on another point, the way you keep defending your use of the word "litter" is besides the point. Telling a white person that they are as lazy as a Mexican for example, is racist. You obviously mean the word "litter" in a disparaging way. It's becoming clear that it is your intent that we should be comparing Tarika Wilson to some sort of animal.

Finally, to address the point as directly as I can. You are calling for the black community to condemn Tarika Wilson's choice of lifestyle - but really, what do you know about it? What do you know about Tarika Wilson? Go on, repeat your mantra about the six kids in eight years from multiple drug-dealing fathers. But outside of that, you know nothing. You know nothing about her story or her circumstances. You don't know how she ended up in the situation she was in. You can't even name one of those six children. And yet you feel justified in condemning her, and her community - which you also know nothing about - because of what?

Nope, it doesn't. What's racist is the attitude that white individuals can be judged by black individuals -- as individuals -- but not the other way around.

What the blacks who pull this race card ought to worry about are the white people who pretend to like everyone black no matter how vile that individual is. Newsflash: don't turn your back. It's the one who views you all as a group and doesn't honestly like or dislike individuals who happen to be black that are prejudiced. So if you have some liberal white dude crying for affirmative action and welfare for moms like this one, you'd do well to ask yourself why he/she doesn't think you can make it on your own without his great white handout. Somewhere down deep in this white liberal's subconscious, he doesn't think you can ever rise to the level he has -- which is just plain stupid and silly.

Whites who aren't prejudiced will have black people they like and admire, black people they don't like, and black people they are neutral about. You know, just as they also have white people they like and admire, white people they dislike, and white people they are neutral about.

La Shawn, well said!

not even an mba,

You know nothing also. You assume anyone white doesn't know what it's like in the ghetto (I'm 50 years old so I'm using the expression of my youth). But if you look you'll find a few of us there with you. And, yes, it's hard in a black skin but try it in a white skin sometime. Are you actually going to sit there and claim white skins aren't marked -- aren't a blazing target every time they go out their door -- because I know otherwise through personal experience.

As a kid, I had a (literally) crazy sister who was the toughest kid on the block that was great protection. As an adult, I had black friends that had my and my daughter's back. But you are a target in a black neighborhood. That is why I have left. I'm not very comfortable in all-white neighborhoods either where everyone is expected to be very Pleasant Valley Sunday and looked down the noses at if they don't bother to keep up with the Joneses. I tend to like downtown areas where we all seem to mix better while being ourselves.

I learned as a kid that people are all the same when we got ganged up on for being white in the projects then moved to a small town and I saw the one black kid ganged up on. I thought then people are all the same; they're all assholes -- and I've seen nothing to change my mind in the 40 years since though I've grown more to say we're all the same we're all human.

Bigots come in all colors and creeds. Before you point the finger at Amy ask yourself this question, "Would I be angry at a black woman using this term to refer to a white woman who had 6 babies in 8 years with 5 different drug dealers?" Seriously, ask yourself that question, long and hard, because your own bigotry is showing.

In other words (and I'm an Atheist using this apt quote): let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

mba - I don't see what context has to do with racism. Are you saying it's ok for one type of person to espouse white superiority, but racist if another type of person does? Seems to me, it's racist whoever says it.

There are criticisms that you can level at yourself that are inappropriate coming from someone else. - true, but nothing to do with racism. It's inappropriate for me to tell you that you're overweight, say - but it's not racist. There's an appropriateness dimension, but it's nothing to do with racism.

Racism is not just categorising whole groups of people by "race", which usually means "colour." It also requires making value judgements about them which have no basis. "Black people are darker skinned than white people" is a non-racist statement because it has an objective basis. There's not much you can say that does have an objective basis though, because not much correlates with skin colour. Even things that do correlate tend to have a wide variance, ie there's more variation within groups than between them.

There's no justification for racism: but nor should you see it when it isn't there.

Actually we have a term for a white woman who pops out kids quickly. Actually I can think of two terms that can be used for a white women who has multiple kids. Both terms are used in Comedy routines, some white people actually like using the terms on themselves. Here they are

White Trash/Trailer Trash
Redneck

Actually I found using the term "litter" not racist. Thru I can say I found it a bit harsh. To me it conitates things like SLUT or LOOSE.

An African-American is an American citizen who was born in Africa. An Italian-American is an American citizen who was born in Italy. And so on, and so on...

Ah, NO. You can't be an American citizen unless you were born here on American soil, or took the American citizenship test and passed. Try to keep up. I'm an AMERICAN. I was born in Pennsylvania. In the United States of America. My ethnic heritage is English, Irish, Welsch, German, and Sioux Indian (of the Oglala tribe).

Sorry, that should be Welsh, no 'c' in there. Need coffee. -_o

"Ah, NO. You can't be an American citizen unless you were born here on American soil, or took the American citizenship test and passed. Try to keep up. I'm an AMERICAN. I was born in Pennsylvania. In the United States of America. My ethnic heritage is English, Irish, Welsch, German, and Sioux Indian (of the Oglala tribe)"

Uh, no, try reading the law before you quote it. Do you really think all the kids of the american military born while their parents were overseas are not citizens? If you parents have not given up their citizenship but are merely temporarily residing in another country, you are a citizen. There may be paperwork, but you do not have to take a citizenship test.

Sorry momof3, I wasn't quoting any law; I had forgotten about military kids. So yeah, if your parents are in the AMERICAN military (which makes them American) and you're born in an American military hospital overseas, you're an American. But someone who was born in oh, ITALY, let's say, using VIC CAR's example, is ITALIAN until he emigrates to the USA and then takes steps to become an AMERICAN citizen. He's not automatically an Italian-American. I thought most people who read what I first posted would have known what I meant.

T's Grammy,

Well sure you can make me look like an idiot if you get to put words in my mouth. If you look through the long thread that prompted this, and I know you have since you've commented in it, you'll see some of my beefs. But nowhere do I say that all white people are ignorant of blacks, their community or their issues.

This next part is for Norma too, so you can get a feel of the concept of context.

The answer to your question is "probably not". I'd probably consider said black person just plain ignorant. But if the same black person said that some white woman was a slaveowner just because she had a black maid - that is racist as fuck.

White person calling a black person a monkey - racist.
Black person calling a white persin a monkey - less so.
Black person calling a white person a pig - racist.
White person calling a black person a pig - less so.

More importantly -
Black person calling a black person a monkey - probably not racist. Just the same way that
White person calling a white person a pig would be.

Throwing a white sheet over your kid to make a ghost costume for Hallowe'en is all fine and dandy, unless you happen to live in a predominantly black neighborhood of the deep south.

When a close friend honestly tells you that you might have a weight problem - they are risking your friendship because they care enough to want to help - and it may be annoying, but it's usually obvious that the intentions are good. When a total stranger calls you fat that total stranger is an asshole. Even if the total stranger's intent is to alert you to your potential health risks (as if you didn't know) - still an asshole.

Really, it's not that hard a concept.

I love how Amy can still be a racist for saying things other black people say. It's bullshit to say a person can't say things ust because they are white instead of brown or black or whatever. Quite frankly, if blacks can call themselves niggers, we should be able to also. You want respect? Stop calling yourself that. If my husband wants to call his cousin a wetback (they're all brown) others should be able to also. If I call myself a bitch, it's open season for others.

Now, all that above is a bit extreme and certainly not applicable to the statements Amy made. They were valid, and said without any connotation about race except that the facts happen to be in THIS case the woman was black.

I am thinking about kid #4. I'm pretty sure I've said something about my litter before. Litter is not a racist word and certainly wasn't meant in a racist way. Get over it. Start making something of yourself, and maybe you won't have to BE so hypersensitive!!!!!!!!

And bravo LaShawn, and Bill Cosby, and others who are trying to build up and IMPROVE things for their fellow blacks, instead of patronizingly coddling them for not being able to achieve, and trying to keep them down and dependent.

"Throwing a white sheet over your kid to make a ghost costume for Hallowe'en is all fine and dandy, unless you happen to live in a predominantly black neighborhood of the deep south."

Are you shitting me? We southerners' kids can't dress up as ghosts? Get the perma-chip off your shoulder and join the rest of us here, in the 2008, in the real world. Please.

Here's the issue.

All you people are saying "well is this racist? Or is this racist? How about this?"

I mean what - like you need my permission? Here's a question for you - what do you think constitues racism? Do you believe that there is any racism in the US? Do you believe, like Radwaste does, that blacks are in trouble with the law ten times more often than non-blacks because they are racially predisposed to be criminals - by a factor of ten.

Here's a view from Lima, where the shooting took place:
http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080810/NEWS17/851774718

"I'm born and raised in Lima, Ohio, so they can't tell me nothing about this place and these crooked cops around here. I went to school with half of them," said Darla Jennings, the white mother of Wilson. "It's divided. It's always been divided. You don't see too many whites coming into the black community and vice versa."

One in four people in Lima is black, zero in fourteen of the Lima SWAT Team is. A bystander was shot by the police. At the time, according to firearms instructor John Foy:
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080731/NEWS02/807310413

It would seem to me the deceased was probably complying [with the order to get down] at that point

Tarika Wilson is dead. She probably did make some serious mistakes in her life - but none of us know any of the details or circumstances about them. Using her as an example of what society should ostracize and shame - come on. Even put in the best possible light, that behavior is extremely petty.

Are you shitting me? We southerners' kids can't dress up as ghosts? Get the perma-chip off your shoulder and join the rest of us here, in the 2008, in the real world. Please.

You know, some people who were around when James Chaney, Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner were killed are still alive today. But I guess you're right - in the 2008 - racism has been eliminated in the United States. The KKK is a thing of the past. And when a white cop shoots a black woman holding a baby - that's totally justified.

mba - I really think you have mixed up a whole bundle of ideas - such as "context," "offensiveness" and "appropriateness" - into one word - "racist." And "racism" is such an important thing that mixing other meanings into it dilutes it and does harm to everyone who is a victim of racism by making it harder for them to say what is going on, or even to think about it.

I don't have time to tease them apart for you - perhaps later - must go to a meeting just now!

Wait, I called my half-hispanic daughter a "monkey-girl" in another post. Oh no, I am racist! I secretely look down on my own daughter for that AWESOME tan skin color she's got! Or maybe I just hate her cause she's never going to have to rub on stinky self-tanner. OR, wait, maybe I meant that she's a good climber! No, that coldn't be, that's be too......rational. And reasonable.

"Sorry momof3, I wasn't quoting any law; I had forgotten about military kids. So yeah, if your parents are in the AMERICAN military (which makes them American) and you're born in an American military hospital overseas, you're an American. But someone who was born in oh, ITALY, let's say, using VIC CAR's example, is ITALIAN until he emigrates to the USA and then takes steps to become an AMERICAN citizen. He's not automatically an Italian-American. I thought most people who read what I first posted would have known what I meant. "

No, Flynne, much as I generally agree with you, you're still wrong here. You don't have to be military, you don't have to be born in the military hospital. US citizens give birth to US citizens, unless they choose to take another citizenship. UNLIKE here, where mexican citizens give birth to US citizens.

"You know, some people who were around when James Chaney, Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner were killed are still alive today. But I guess you're right - in the 2008 - racism has been eliminated in the United States. The KKK is a thing of the past. And when a white cop shoots a black woman holding a baby - that's totally justified."

You know the names of some blacks killed by whites. Name me 3 whites killed by blacks. Can you? It happens oh, let's see, about 10 times as often. Hmmm. But does not make the papers or a huge, "racism" stink. Strange.

Norman,

I don't think I have ideas mixed up - but I do see your point. I can certainly see the argument for reserving the word "racism" for egregious and blatant behavior. But that low level subtle discrimination that minorities are exposed to constantly everyday is a problem.

For example, when a store owner spends all his time observing the black teenager to make sure he doesn't shoplift anything, despite there being white or asian teenagers in the store as well - is that racism? Radwaste would argue that the statistics say the storeowner is right to be doing just that - but seriously, without knowing anything about these people, to automatically assume that the black guy is the problem - does that constitute racism, or should we use a different word, since that black teenager isn't particularly victimized.

I see what you're saying momof3. What I was saying is that if you're born to Italian parents in Italy, and then come to the US, you're still an Italian until you take steps to become a US citizen. I realize that Americans who give birth overseas have babies that are Americans; I took what VIC CARS posted to mean that he thinks someone of Italian descent who is born here is an Italian-American. I think that person is an AMERICAN. His ethnic background is Italian. Yeah I know, I'm being nit-picky. But I think it's things like this that divide us and perpetuate that divisiveness. YMMV

momof3,
Keep prissily scolding other people all you want for being, as you put it, "hypersensitive!!!!!!!!" about race issues.

Those eight exclamation points can't dilute what you wrote about the dead woman at the start of the monster thread; She was scum who's life was a waste. The only real problem with her death is the 6 kids who will be on welfare their whole life. Or, more likely, delaing drugs like their daddies till they get shot or go to jail, where they will live off our hard-earned money the rest of their far-too-comfy lives.

That came across as plain nasty and provocative - especially from someone with your username.

Ummm, momof3 - only one of those guys was black, the other two were jews. Edgar Ray Killen was finally convicted in 2005, almost forty years after charges were first laid. But since racism doesn't exist, the all-white jury who deadlocked in the sixties weren't affected at all by the Civil Rights Movement.

It's becoming clear that it is your intent that we should be comparing Tarika Wilson to some sort of animal.

I have said repeatedly that I used the same term to describe Catholics, rich white women, and Muslims who have many children. Yes, I think having many children like that is animal-like. Is it because she is black? No, it's because she has many children like that, same as the rich white women, etc. Calling me racist for it is ridiculous -- and as soon as I pointed out to all the people here because they have google alerts, or somebody e-mailed them that I am racist, they should have said "Ohhhhh! We get it." But you are determined to believe that I am a racist. I am not.

And you are someone who has had your brain infected by the P.C. virus. (Shockingly, I violate some "Illness As Metaphor" rule here, too.) It's this that you write, that I can't possibly judge Tarika Wilson's choice of lifestyle. Well, if that isn't the most asinine thing I ever heard. You write it this way -- like somebody who's had all sense removed from their brain and replace by potting soil:

You are calling for the black community to condemn Tarika Wilson's choice of lifestyle - but really, what do you know about it? What do you know about Tarika Wilson? Go on, repeat your mantra about the six kids in eight years from multiple drug-dealing fathers. But outside of that, you know nothing. You know nothing about her story or her circumstances. You don't know how she ended up in the situation she was in. You can't even name one of those six children. And yet you feel justified in condemning her, and her community - which you also know nothing about - because of what?

People who write me for advice and then don't like my answer frequently come up with similar bullshit: "You don't know me." But, yes I do. Action is character, to paraphrase Aristotle. You are what you do. This woman was not a good mother. I don't care if she baked bread for her kids' lunches every day and volunteered for the homeless. Putting out children without daddies, by multiple drug dealers, and having a boyfriend in your life who is a drug dealer when you have numerous children, makes you a TERRIBLE MOTHER. You put your life and you children's life at risk. Children without fathers are much worse off than children with fathers. This woman had terrible, terrible values.

I tell the girls at the inner city school I speak to -- some of whom are white, many of whom are Latina, and many of whom are black -- not to get pregnant really young and unmarried. That they need to develop themselves first, and get a career first, and that if that if they don't, they will likely be mired in poverty all their lives. How could I know that? Well, because that's how things tend to work out for women who have babies very young with irresponsible guys they are not married to. And those kids have a terrible shot in life.

Anyone who says differently is a lying, and has some sick motive for doing so. What's yours? Are you desperate to find racism anywhere? And if so, why?

What do we know of her situation?

She had multiple children by those least ethically able to be good fathers, the least likely to remain and be fathers anyway, and the most likely to put her and her children at risk from either killer competitors or in law enforcement raids.

Now that is a combination of stupidity, recklessness, and irresponsibility as a parent, a mother, an adult, take your pick.

That much we know about her situation.

How did she get in that situation?

A. By keeping her legs open for all the wrong men.
B. By not using proper preventive measures when she did so.

Don't tell me condoms and birth control are rare commodities or are to expensive. Kids are alot more so. That being the case, chances are they weren't in use. So she deliberately entered a destructive lifestyle, and dragged several fatherless children into it with her.

See aforementioned character failings.

So yes, I can judge, and so can everyone else, and so SHOULD everyone else, so that public condemnation of such irresponsible behavior might reduce its practice.

Shame isn't always a bad thing. Especially if there is plenty to be ashamed of.

What kind of futures are those kids likely to have, even if she'd lived?

Wanna bet none of them will run for president?

Want to bet that a common phrase they'll hear is, "meet your new cellmate"?

She gave them nothing but poor role models, and demonstrated nothing but poor life choices, it is tragic that she died as she did, but at least her contribution to the cycle of self destructive choices is at an end.

If only it had ended with the right choices, instead of the avoidable tragedy that came to pass.

I just LOVE that LaShawn says she is black, not that bullshit term, "African-American."

I am not German-Polish-chasedbytheCossacksaroundRussia-American. I am American, and if you happen to want to describe me, you'll probably mention that I have red hair and skin the color of fresh Wite-Out, as I live like a bat and wear French sunblock and use an umbrella if I'm going to be in the sun for any length of time.

I have a friend who is black, who is also not "African-American," because she is not from Africa, but St. Lucia. She is also not a P.C. idiot. Oh, and guess what? She'd look down on Tarika same as I am. Because of the woman's behavior. Because it is not civilized to have six children by five different daddies, all of whom are drug dealers, by age 26. Anyone who says this is an okay life choice should call the firemen with the jaws of life to extract their head from their sigmoid colon.

I'm reminded of the time I wrote something inspired by how hard the Cubans were trying to get to America, out of a desperate desire for freedom. I pointed out that you don't see Americans, for example, little old Jewish grandmothers from Miami in their big yellow Cadillacs floating the other way: "Oy, Irving, I forgot my heart medication at the condo!"

I got letters from people who read me in Florida, saying, "How lovely that you use your column as a platform for anti-semitism."

Right.

Mere mention of somebody's race or religion is not racism. I wrote to those people, "Shalom. If I learned anti-semitism, it was at Temple Beth El, in Birmingham, Michigan, where I won a high school scholarship for a summer in Israel. That's my bubbie I'm mentioning in my column. She drove a big yellow Cadillac and lived in Florida, and I thought she'd get a kick out of being in my column."

What kind of futures are those kids likely to have, even if she'd lived? Wanna bet none of them will run for president? Want to bet that a common phrase they'll hear is, "meet your new cellmate"?

Precisely.

Anyone who says differently is a lying, and has some sick motive for doing so. What's yours? Are you desperate to find racism anywhere? And if so, why?

I said it before, and I'll say it again - I would prefer to be wrong, even now after all my grandiose posturing, than to know that someone so harshly judgmental is dispensing advice in a syndicated column.

You say you're not racist. Okay - I take you at your word, despite the fact that almost all racists deny the charge. Now put up - give us a post excoriating the Lima police force as much as you've blasted the dead woman. You've already stated your view on no-knock raids - and you've already stated your view that your concern is for the children. Now put it at the top of a page.

Here we had 11 SWAT team members raiding a house where they knew there were children, and one of them fires blindly into a dark room - incidentally the room that all six kids were in at the time. And now that we've got a dead bystander and an injured infant, they have changed nothing in their procedures. In fact the county recently announced that they are going to get tougher on crime. So go ahead - show us that you recognize that there's plenty of blame to spread to all sorts of people, despite what color their skin is.

Reminds me of an Obama campaign worker being accused of being racist for calling a some children climbing a tree "monkeys." The problem is that all these children were black.

I think her comment was directed at their behavior, not their race.

"Litter" is racist? Ridiculous. You could describe a gaggle of children of any race as such. I once referred to the McCaughey septuplets as a "litter."

Guess what? The McCaugheys are white.

Can the word in question reasonably be applied to persons of any race? If the answer is "yes," then it's not racist.

If you had called her children any of the widely-used disparaging terms for black people, yes, that would be racist, and it would probably indicate you're a racist.

I never thought of this as difficult.

Jerry, the first reply in this thread couldn't be more spot on. It's well-nigh impossible to stand up to an accusation of racism. Any defense is viewed as denial or concealing it. (And at times, I understand why. Michael Richards made a extremely direct reference to lynching -- on the spur of the moment -- and called his heckler "nigger" at least half a dozen times. Then he has the nerve to tell us that he's not a racist. Okay, in addition to being a racist, he's also a moron.)

Robert,

You do realize that one of the people running for President is of mixed-race, just like Tarika Wilson was, and raised by a single mother.

"meet your new cellmate" Ha ha ha. I guess your point is that no one ever rises above their situation or circumstances - even though you've made up a lot of what those circumstances are.

Even still, Tarika Wilson was regarded as a good parent - despite her circumstances.

I guess I'm not as certain as you are that those kids are better off with their mom dead.

Amy- I've never found anything you have said to be racist. I don't believe for a second that you are racist. That word gets so tossed around by easily offended people it has lost all real political and social meaning.

Regarding your post two days ago, this is a subject that is so sensitive most people lob softballs, but you walked in with a bag of bricks. I admire your honesty and agree with your opinion. The use of the word "litter" is your style, as anyone who follows your work should recognize.

PS- If this woman were white, I doubt anyone would think you would let her off the hook. So race had nothing to do with it.

A thought occurs to me. I do the math, I find that having six children at the age of 26 means that she spent the bulk of the time from her eighteenth birthday until the time of her death - pregnant.

Let that sink in. 6 children, aged 1 to 8. There was no mention of a pending seventh child, so let's assume therefore that she had six children in seven years.

While it doesn't technically meet with the definition of "litter", haven't we heard quite a bit of condescending rhetoric concerning white Christian women who do this?

Is that religionist? Or is it just pointing out something that is incredibly poor form, especially if one's circumstances do not allow one to raise those children in an environment conducive to having a future greater than "inmate # 1927528" or "would you like fries with that"?

There's a reason that "child of a drug dealer makes good" is the stuff ABC after-school movies are made of.

Because they are exceedingly rare.

But you can continue to believe that in order to criticize one side of a tragedy one must denounce all actors in that tragedy equally.

NEAM - go back to Reason. They like your kind there. Here? Not so much. We aren't really into the whole "I demand that you denounce Mr. X" schtick.

Shalom.

Momof3: An African-American is an American citizen who was born in Africa. An Italian-American is an American citizen who was born in Italy. And so on, and so on...

Flynne: Ah, NO. You can't be an American citizen unless you were born here on American soil, or took the American citizenship test and passed. Try to keep up. I'm an AMERICAN. I was born in Pennsylvania. In the United States of America. My ethnic heritage is English, Irish, Welsch, German, and Sioux Indian (of the Oglala tribe).

Flynne, chill out. There's no contradiction here. Anyone who has attained American citizenship, whether by virtue of birth or legal immigration IS an American. You yourself implied as much when you said "took the American citizenship test and passed."

So, yes, an Italian-American is someone who was born in Italy, took the citizenship test and now lives here.

Sheesh, what an attitude! Amy, you got enough bandwidth for this ego? Talk to Gregg about it. You may need more.

I just love this: "I said it before, and I'll say it again - I would prefer to be wrong, even now after all my grandiose posturing, than to know that someone so harshly judgmental is dispensing advice in a syndicated column."

Yes, let's have people who have no values and no judgement dispensing advice. People who will tell you that whatever you choose to do, that's just fine and dandy. You really do have your brain firmly impacted up your ass.

Next there's this: "You say you're not racist. Okay - I take you at your word, despite the fact that almost all racists deny the charge. Now put up - give us a post excoriating the Lima police force as much as you've blasted the dead woman. You've already stated your view on no-knock raids - and you've already stated your view that your concern is for the children. Now put it at the top of a page."

I have blogged before about my problem with the drug laws, and my problem with these drug raids. I think it's irresponsible of the police to go into a home with six children present with drawn guns to go after some piece of drug scum. But that's not what that post was about. I don't blog about every single issue in every single post. This one was about the way this woman's values contributed to her death and probably a terrible future for these kids.

I do think it's terrible she died, and I've said so. I've additionally said I don't believe it's every right to take a life, even of the worst scum: child-molesting rapist murderer. (ie, I don't believe in capital punishment.)

Furthermore, I've shown you three other examples where I call women who have multiple children the mothers of litters.

Finally, I've talked about a program that I have at an inner city school, my own program that I started, simply by calling a teacher and having her put me in a classroom to speak to kids one afternoon a month, in hopes of changing the cycle of poverty and terrible values -- like Tarika Wilson's terrible values.

That you persist in contending that I'm a racist in light of being shown these facts over and over and over again says a great deal about you...such as, that you seek to find racism where there is no racism; that you are probably just bone-desperate to do so. There's something sick in you and I suggest you explore that instead of flogging what's proven over and over and over again to be (see above) a dead horse -- the idea that I am racist.

I am white. I will continue to criticize anyone, white, black, or other, who has litters of children without daddies and lives with a drug dealer, imperiling her children and very possibly to very likely setting them up for lives of crime. (Don't children learn by example?)

MBA wrote "Telling a white person that they are as lazy as a Mexican for example, is racist. "

True. However, nobody here wrote that. Please, no straw men.

And wrote "You obviously mean the word "litter" in a disparaging way."

Yes. You said that yesterday. It's meant to be disparaging. You know that already. You also know from repeated references provided you that Amy has used it for black and white women alike.

Asked and answered. Stop repeating yourself.

Hey guys,

Just to prove to y'all that I'm only slightly nutty and understand a bit about your perspective - I'll throw this in:

There are obvious, clear and blatant abuses by the Politically Correct crowd to police thought and speech. The David Howard incident for example - and basically all incidents where people aren't supposed to use the word "niggardly". That behavior is stupid and potentially very dangerous and the PC Crowd should be ashamed of it.

Re: niggardly...what is this, your idea of a substitute for conceding that I am not racist? You're wrong in your contention that I am, and you've been shown that every which way and Tuesday. I mean, come on, what kind of racist starts a program to help inner city kids succeed, totally of her own volition, by stalking a teacher and begging to be allowed to help?

There's something wrong with you, and it's evident in the way you are desperate to find me racist. Go fix that. Or go start a program like mine in an inner-city school where you live. You're wasting everybody's time here, and that's boring.

Flynne, chill out. There's no contradiction here.

Relax your own self, Patrick, I'm chill. Read my next couple of posts and you'll see what that I've explained. Really. The people around here get a boatload of exercise jumping to conclusions so rapidly! Myself included, I'll admit it.

You do realize that one of the people running for President is of mixed-race, just like Tarika Wilson was, and raised by a single mother.

MBA, you do realize that one of the people running for President who is of mixed race had a single mother who wasn't living with a drug dealer and 5 other children by different daddies.

And his race is about as relevant to his (in)ability to be president as Tarika Wilson's race was to her (in)ability to be a responsible mother.

Not even, when the hell did Amy even once claim that there was no racism? Show me the post.

The main reason that there are more blacks in prison than whites can be attribute to several things. The fact the black communities tend to be poorer, same goes for most minority communities. The "racist crackers owe me mentality" works great on some dip shit liberal not quite so good with the state trooper who pulled you over. If you refuse to follow the law out of personal principle (the same "blackness" that got OJ off) then expect to get fucked. Racial prejudice from a small number of cops, DAs, judges etc.

BTW you should really be concerned with actual racism and not an off color inflammatory remark that while it maybe racially insensitive is not racist by dint of being racially insensitive.

"White person calling a black person a monkey - racist.
Black person calling a white persin a monkey - less so.
Black person calling a white person a pig - racist.
White person calling a black person a pig - less so."
So your argument is that speech should be a function of race? Had Amy been black and said the same thing it would be ok? She's a bigot for saying that as a white women? Are you not seeing the hypocrisies.

MBA, you do realize that one of the people running for President who is of mixed race had a single mother who wasn't living with a drug dealer and 5 other children by different daddies.

Thanks for batting cleanup!

"Now put up - give us a post excoriating the Lima police force as much as you've blasted the dead woman. You've already stated your view on no-knock raids - and you've already stated your view that your concern is for the children. Now put it at the top of a page."

Not even:

I completely agree the Lima police are deserving of both blame and attention.

Amy, as the author of this site, chose to focus on the mother's behavior - she does this frequently. Amy (and many of her readers) promote what I like to refer as an "optimal family situation." Are some kids better off being raised by a single mother? If the dad is unstable enough to be committed for a time (like my father) then yes. If the father is an awesome guy with a stable job and many things to teach the kids? No - the kid should have the father.

An optimal family situation includes two loving adults who choose to have children for reasons beyond their own biological yearning and who are financially and emotionally prepared to take on every single hair-pin turn on the road of parenting.

Amy, on a regular basis, speaks against irresponsible parents who act in ways that are extremely sub optimal. This could mean buying a house on an adjustable rate mortgage when you're already in debt and don't have a steady job - then crying foul on Everyone Else when the bank comes knocking b/c the mortgage is in default. It includes parents who abuse substances. And parents who split up b/c "they deserve to be happy too." Yes, parents deserve happiness. But you owe it to your kids to give the marriage 1,000% before calling it quits because creating a stable, loving home life is the #1 priority when you decide to reproduce. It's possible to create a happy home even if you aren't "in love" w/ someone. You figure it out. That's what it's all about.

Tarika, no matter how you slice and dice it, was a terrible mother. You don't continue having children when you so clearly don't have the ability to provide the first with a stable home environment. White people can do this. Black people can do this. People in Africa, the U.S, Canada, and Mexico.

As humans we're all susceptible to making shitty decisions and having shitty judgment. Those w/ particularly bad judgment and decision making skills should NOT reproduce. It fucks. Kids. Up.

Not mentioning the police is a choice made by Amy most likely to highlight this particular issue of bad child rearing. She likes this topic and so do most of the readers here. It's a good one. An interesting one. And one more people should think about before they have sex.

Not mentioning the police doesn't preclude the idea that Amy (probably, can't speak for her) disagrees with their actions and finds Rambo-like officers to be deplorable types to have a weapon and chance to use it. That the cop is wrong and she doesn't make that the headline or highlight of the blog item doesn't mean shit.

Amy Alkon,

I'll give you credit, you engage your commenters regardless of whether they agree with and support you or not. And you do so vigorously.

I have blogged before about my problem with the drug laws, and my problem with these drug raids. I think it's irresponsible of the police to go into a home with six children present with drawn guns to go after some piece of drug scum. But that's not what that post was about. I don't blog about every single issue in every single post. This one was about the way this woman's values contributed to her death and probably a terrible future for these kids.

Only that the original offending post started with the question "Who Places A Lower Value On Black Lives?"

Don't you think the circumstances surrounding Tarika Wilson's death are relevant to that question? Or is Tarika Wilson's death only a springboard for you to launch into a lecture about what the only correct structure for a family could be?

As to my searching for racism where there is none:

You now have two posts on the subject - and have yet to address the issue that a cop discharged his weapon blindly into a room with a woman and her six children. You have yet to mention that young Sincere Wilson was injured. You have yet to describe Lima, Ohio at all let alone any of the communities there, black or not. And yet you still feel justified in calling for them to ostracize her, to disrespect the victim.

Yeah lady, I'm the one with the axe to grind.

Come on. I'm asking you put up a post with the views you have already announced before - just tied to this incident - where it is certainly relevant. Oh wait - that would impact your ability to look down on the dead mother.

"Oh wait - that would impact your ability to look down on the dead mother." No her doing so would be submitting to some race bating idiot. I'd be very disappointed if she did that.

Rinse and repeat, from my comment above:

I have blogged before about my problem with the drug laws, and my problem with these drug raids. I think it's irresponsible of the police to go into a home with six children present with drawn guns to go after some piece of drug scum. But that's not what that post was about. I don't blog about every single issue in every single post. This one was about the way this woman's values contributed to her death and probably a terrible future for these kids.

I do think it's terrible she died, and I've said so. I've additionally said I don't believe it's every right to take a life, even of the worst scum: child-molesting rapist murderer. (ie, I don't believe in capital punishment.)

Here's my value judgment: I think momof3 should spend more time parenting and less time commenting. It's not that I agree or disagree with her numerous posts on this blog, it's just that she seems to spend a LOT of time in front of a computer for someone with little children at home. In my experience, having a mom who is not "present" and engaged in the day to day stuff is almost as bad as having no mom at all.

You want a rinse and repeat?

Only that the original offending post started with the question "Who Places A Lower Value On Black Lives?" Don't you think the circumstances surrounding Tarika Wilson's death are relevant to that question? Or is Tarika Wilson's death only a springboard for you to launch into a lecture about what the only correct structure for a family could be?

Or is Tarika Wilson's death only a springboard for you to launch into a lecture about what the only correct structure for a family could be?

Yes.

You came to my blog and screamed about me calling you a "racist"...which I didn't. I just said you were talking ugly. Particularly, about someone who you don't know the whole story about, who is dead and cannot defend herself.

Pointing out the fact that you talk ugly about everyone is rather like putting lipstick on a pig.

You said:

"I use "litter" to describe the children of Catholic women and rich women and Muslim women in other blog posts here. It's about the number of the children not the race, religion, or socioeconomic background of the women."

The record stands corrected: You are a MISANTHROPIST.

Happy?

Amy, making a comment based in fact can be construed in any way, if someone doesn't want to hear it. What happened to this woman was terrible. We cannot diminish that. There are 6 children who will be growing up without their mother. It does not change the fact that she had 6 kids by 5 different men. I mean, it happens once; you can say "These things happen." 6 times is a habit. This poor girl was pregnant for most of her adult life. Where was someone to tell her that you don't have to get pregnant by every man you sleep with? A mother? A grandmother? A friend? Hell, a SOCIAL WORKER?

The "only" stuff is bullshit, of course.

There are a lot of good structures for raising children.

A couple of primary things: Not having more children than you can care for, not having children without daddies, not having the children live in a dangerous environment, etc., etc., etc.

You came to my blog and screamed about me calling you a "racist"...which I didn't.

The truth is, you have about three comments on your blog and I didn't feel like commenting in an original way, so I just copied some stuff I wrote on my blog somewhere and threw it up there. I find you a lightweight as a thinker, and not worth my time.

You further write above: "The record stands corrected: You are a MISANTHROPIST."

I'm somebody with values, and who feels strongly that children should have daddies and all the rest I've said over and over and over again above.

Amy,
you would have made such a good mom.

Gretchen,

Thanks for engaging me so civilly, especially considering how disruptive my presence probably is.

There's a lot of different arguments you've brought up. I don't think an unhappy marriage can provide a better environment for raising kids than a well balanced divorced couple could - but I can see and understand the argument.

But to the issue:

An optimal family situation includes two loving adults who choose to have children for reasons beyond their own biological yearning and who are financially and emotionally prepared to take on every single hair-pin turn on the road of parenting.

Who decides what constitues "financially and emotionally prepared"? I've met a lot of good parents who claim that no one is ever truly emotionally prepared to be a parent - I suspect that that's one point I'll get some agreement on here. Should it depend on the environment? Does a couple in Manhattan have a higher requirement financially than say, a couple in Lima, Ohio?

The household average income in Lima is about two-thirds what it is in the rest of Ohio. Does that affect what we might consider a viable home for children - or is it a flat fee? Should people in poor regions of the country never have any kids?

I totally agree that the greatest resource a kid can have growing up is loving and responsible parents. By the standards of the community where Tarika Wilson lived, well I don't know enough about either Tarika or the community where she lived - but I don't think it's imposssible that her kids were better off than most of the neighbors.

Here's a little thought experiment for Mr. NEAM.

Would you be so vociferously attacking the police if the deceased had been white.

Do you, in fact, believe that the only reason the cop blindly shot up the house was because the occupants were black?

Unless you believe that the reason for Tarika's death was solely her race, then the cop isn't really relevant then, is he?

And if you do believe that, then your problem isn't with Amy, it's with the Lima PD. I would suggest your energy would be better expended there than trying to get someone who is not a racist to just admit to being one.

Because I can't see Room 101 from here.

"The record stands corrected: You are a MISANTHROPIST." Yes I hate stupid people, don't be willfully stupid and i won't hate you.

Here a though maybe if someone had given her the same unkind words that Amy used she'd still be alive. Maybe if her friends, relatives, etc. actually grew some stones put her feelings aside and said "Your fucking your life and the lives of you children. Put the crack passer dick down." She might have gotten her head out of her ass and gotten her shit together. Instead the praised her for being a good mother.

mba - [...] a cop discharged his weapon blindly into a room with a woman and her six children. You have yet to mention that young Sincere Wilson was injured. You have yet to describe Lima, Ohio at all let alone any of the communities there, black or not. And yet you still feel justified in calling for them to ostracize her, to disrespect the victim.

This is exactly the sort of thing that you can expect to happen if you choose to live the kind of life that Wilson did. It's not fair, it's not good, it's due to all sorts of complicated social issues ... but it's a fact. Did Wilson have any choice in the matter? Yes, some. Did she choose wisely? No. Who pays for her mistake? She and her children do.

Who decides what constitues "financially and emotionally prepared"?

I do. Here it is, just for starters: Not being an unmarried teen mother who fucks numerous disappearing drug dealers without birth control, and then jeopardizes her kids' lives by taking up with yet another drug dealer.

And vlad is exactly right with this below, which was a major point of my post:

"Here a though maybe if someone had given her the same unkind words that Amy used she'd still be alive. Maybe if her friends, relatives, etc. actually grew some stones put her feelings aside and said "Your fucking your life and the lives of you children. Put the crack passer dick down." She might have gotten her head out of her ass and gotten her shit together. "

Would you be so vociferously attacking the police if the deceased had been white.

You probably won't believe me but yes. I absolutely would be offended and vociferous if a no-knock raid ended up with a dead white woman and injured white baby and a getting off scot-free cop (of any race) and then the issue was used by someone to cast aspersions on the dead woman. Most definitely yes.

Do you, in fact, believe that the only reason the cop blindly shot up the house was because the occupants were black?

No. I believe the only reason the cop blindly shot up the house is because he knows he can - since the police are above the law.

Unless you believe that the reason for Tarika's death was solely her race, then the cop isn't really relevant then, is he?

I don't see how this follows. I think you're full of shit. Look, if you want to argue with the "brian's fevered image of not even an mba" you should probably do so in a way that doesn't prompt me to respond.

And if you do believe that, then your problem isn't with Amy, it's with the Lima PD. I would suggest your energy would be better expended there than trying to get someone who is not a racist to just admit to being one.

I think I've hashed out my problem with Amy Alkon. Righteous Bubba nailed it with his second comment in the previous thread:

Really, go back, reread, and see if you can figure out who puts the lowest value on black lives between the cop, the mom who was shot holding her child and you, using it all as grist for a sensationalist mill.

Not even:

I definitely agree there are grey, subjective areas as far as what constitutes "financially and emotionally stable enough."

To answer your question - yes, a parent in NYC DOES have a higher financial requirement. Mainly because the cost of living is higher. So, if you earn $20k in NYC it won't go as far as $20k in Ohio. That said, most jobs do take that into account. I would probably earn more doing what I do in NYC than here in Boston. Likewise, I'd probably be paid less in Atlanta.

What is objective, however, are children's requirements. An iPod is not a requirement. Three square meals, plus a few snacks and good boots/coat/gloves etc. during a snow storm are requirements.

Being on welfare, by its very nature, means you aren't able to provide these things on your own. I'm not saying Ms. Wilson was on welfare I'm simply outlining my thoughts on what makes a person more ready than another to be a parent.

I won't argue that people are never prepared, emotionally, to be parents as it is unfathomably more exhausting and difficult than anyone could imagine (no kids, here but I can try and understand).

Now, that said, I have to say a person without enough foresight and personal introspection to conclude that continuing to carry children to term and keep them, knowing full well the fathers are incompetent losers, is emotionally stunted. To put it VERY nicely.

So while there is clear subjectivity on these things there are also extreme cases which can most definitely be judged objectively.

And also - about kids being happier w/ two happy divorced parents: I agree to a point. But I think people tend to take marriage and divorce too lightly these days. I absolutely agree w/ Amy (and Criddo, where are you anyway?) that people need to be smarter about picking their partners, ESPECIALLY when an objective of the relationship is having and raising children. Some marriages are toxic. Others just lost the spark. There are ways to salvage an ember in those specific marriages and make a pretty damned good home as loving companions with a higher purpose of raising excellent kids.

I just think people get idealize and romanticize marriage and when it isn't everything they dream it will be they call it quits. That doesn't benefit anyone. A little therapy and a LOT of effort can make a big enough difference to keep things GREAT - and that is a good place to raise kids.

As far as Tarika's kids: it kills me inside that there are kids being raised in such unstable, sad neighborhoods. Saying they were better of in their situation than in some other place is comparing "really, really bad" to "absolute worst."

It's like having your leg eaten off by a shark and then someone saying "well at least he didn't get your arm, too!" Like, no shit, Sherlock. Nice observation. Now get the hell out of my hospital room!

Ok, NEAM, by your own admission, the cop didn't care one way or the other for the blackness of the person he shot.

Therefore, he wasn't making a judgment at all of the value of a black person's life.

The woman, however, DID make a judgment on the value of her own life. She concluded that her life was worth risking to be with Man #6.

From where I sit, that tells me that she places a lower value on "Black life" (her own) than does the cop (who just shot with no concern for life at all, regardless of the color of that life).

And anything "righteous bubba" has to say is irrelevant to me. He's a marginal thinker at best, who seems to know only how to repeat the same meaningless untruth over and over again in the hopes that people will simply agree with him to shut him up.

You have promise, but your arguments are internally inconsistent.

the important thing is to make sure only wealthy, married couples can reproduce.

I didn't get a DOG until I was in my late 30s, because I wanted to be sure I had the money and lifestyle where I could take care of any possible medical problem and not just leave her home alone five days a week. This is a good thing. Should you wait until you have the financial and emotional wherewithall before you have children? Absofuckinglutely.

In other words, yes, I think people should be as careful and prudent in having children as I am in having A PET.

I am stunned that black leaders don't speak out against women who do as Wilson did, and then pop up to speak out against cops -- cops who lay their lives on the line to protect them. Sure, there are bad apples in the police force, as there are in all lines of work. This seems to have been an accident brought on both by stupid policy and by the way this woman lived her life, the terrible "choices" she made.

I suspect the reason you don't see black leaders speaking out is that they'd lose their standing (and income) from the black community. I speak out at my peril against Islamism, especially, because I think it's the right thing to do. A pity we don't see many black leaders following my lead about problems in their own community. And they're not going to end up dead for doing it, but they might need to get a second job.

Therefore, he wasn't making a judgment at all of the value of a black person's life.

Yes he was, and he set that value at low - as well as the value for all the children in the room with Tarika. You want to argue that the cop isn't racist? Maybe he is and maybe he isn't - maybe knowing that the house was that of a black family cemented in his mind the knowledge that he'd get away with it. I don't know - so in this case I'll assume that he is not racist. Doesn't change the fact that, based on his actions, he clearly placed a ridiculously low value on the lives of the people in the room he fired on.

You have promise, but your arguments are internally inconsistent.

I have promise? Why thank you Master brian, does that make me your padawan? Gimme a break brian, the only thing that's internally inconsistent is your morality.

So she's on a crusade, and dead mothers only count for pithy afterwords, the important thing is to make sure only wealthy, married couples can reproduce. Fine - that's not racist, but it's pretty damn ugly.

Way to miss the point. Amy thinks people who actually WANT and can AFFORD to have children should have them, not poor misguided girls who spread their legs for any old drug dealer on the corner and have 6 kids within an 8 year span without any viable means of support, you miserable excuse for a mewling sycophant (oooo Gretchen, "Thanks for engaging me so civilly, especially considering how disruptive my presence probably is."). If you're aware of how "distruptive" you are, how about you just stop with your insipid sniping about the asshole cop angle on this and tell us all what you're really afraid of - that in this instance, you're not going to get the majority of us to agree with you.

I'm not saying the cop isn't a racist, I don't know the man. What I'm saying is his racism, or lack thereof, is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Given that we've seem SWAT teams engage in the same exact behavior regardless of the age, class, or race of the persons raided, then your argument that we ought to be focusing on the cop is moot.

Amy chose to look at the other side of the coin - which is "why was this woman in a position where she was likely to be raided".

You came back with "everyone is in a position where they are likely to be raided", and attempted to change the subject. You did so in an effort to "prove" that Amy is a racist for using language you do not approve of to describe a reckless and selfish woman who just happens to have darker skin than Amy does.

My morality is internally consistent. I do not support government-sanctioned killing except in national defense. But I also don't shed a tear for those who die while partaking of high-risk activity. This applies equally to bungee jumpers and Tarika Wilson.

I didn't get a DOG until I was in my late 30s, because I wanted to be sure I had the money and lifestyle...

Please, Amy:) Not the dog speech! Not now...

Given that we've seem SWAT teams engage in the same exact behavior regardless of the age, class, or race of the persons raided, then your argument that we ought to be focusing on the cop is moot.

Exactly, brian.

Given that we've seem SWAT teams engage in the same exact behavior regardless of the age, class, or race of the persons raided, then your argument that we ought to be focusing on the cop is moot.

WTF?!?!

1. Lima, Ohio has a race problem. There are longstanding issues between the police force and the black community in the city. Between the polarized sections of the city. This is not a simple case, much like how most stories about race are.
2. You want this not to be about race or what?
3. Regardless - the answer to the question is still the cop places a lower value on black lives. In fact, that cop places a lower value on the lives of anyone that doesn't have a badge as compared to almost anyone else in the story (it's certainly believable that Anthony Terry saw human life, regardless of race, as worthless)

And yet you're saying the story should be "OMG check out the baby factory - what a worthless person she was!"

Eyes on the prize there - no babies until you're ready is the number one rule.

NEAM,

I'm going to have to agree with this point brian made, "I also don't shed a tear for those who die while partaking of high-risk activity. This applies equally to bungee jumpers and Tarika Wilson."

What you are saying is that because this woman was black and came from one of the poorer areas of Ohio, we should excuse the circumstances that she placed herself and her children in.

What the other commenters are saying is that Tarika Wilson made the choice to be there with her kids. Their lives were in danger in that place. Whether it be from cops, or a rival drug crew. Any person who makes such a choice shouldn't be martyred for making it. Their choices should be scrutinized.

Amy is simply analyzing the choices she'd made in her life that got her to that point and saying that someone should discourage that type of behavior, preferably someone to whom our community listens to. It needed to be said. What happened to her was an unfortunate consequence of her own actions and blaming the police officer and his gun aren't going to get us anywhere.

Please take off those blinders for a minute and give all credit where it's due.

Deion - Thanks. But I suspect our friend has been blinded by spending too much time with the arch-libertarians at Reason, and is unable to see anything but OMG! COPZ!

If Tarika Wilson had died in a drive-by from a rival crew, and Amy had written the same exact story, NEAM would not have shown up, because the blackness of the victim is ancillary to HIS story - which is Cops Bad.

And whatever your feelings on the "no knock" methodology, the part about this story that seems to attract the emotional attention is the presence of children in the house.

Amy was more interested in how those children came to be in the line of fire than she was in where the line came from.

And for this, according to some, she is a racist.

What we NEED in this world mr not even an mba, is MORE harsh judgement.

What we DON'T need, is more mushy feel good pap masquarading as enlightenment & tolerance. A bad choice, a destructive choice, a selfish choice, those remain exactly what they are no matter how you dress it up.

I note that you add "Despite the fact that almost all racists deny the charge." Um, wouldn't a NONracist deny the charge as much so as an actual racist? How does one come through that circular logic of yours?

Now this senseless crap: "fires blindly into a dark room"

Here's a word I'm sure you're familiar with. "DUH!" It is a dark room, you're raiding a residence of a drug dealer. Are you telling me that drug dealers are such upstanding citizens that they would never kill to protect their trade, their stock, or their undeserved liberty, and that they would never use children as cover? Suffice it to say, it is a DARK room, and a bullet travels OUT of a dark room just as well as it does IN to it, the officer has a right to protect himself, and in a raid like that, there is a very real posibility of death.

How exactly could they change the procedure here to protect themselves in such hazardous conditions? I've gone through my fair share of training in securing a buildings and rooms, and I'll tell you this, you can do everything right in broad daylight, and still get killed in the chaos of an enclosed space.

None of those officers set out that day with the mindset, "I can't wait to shoot into the dark and hurt some kids and shoot their mother." They set out to take down a drug dealer, and hoped to come home at the end of the day, a dark room is a death trap, you get only a single heartbeat to decide, shoot or don't shoot, and you might die no matter what you do.

YES this was a tragedy, but it all would have been avoided, and that dealer gone down alone, if that stupid incompetent mother had decided to date an honest grocer instead of having dealer after dealer move in with her and her children.

SHE put herself and her kids at risk when she moved in with the bastard. The bastard put them all at risk when he decided he'd sooner keep slinging rock on the corner than get a real job. You can't blame the officers for doing their best to come home at the end of the day.

Yes by the way not even an mba, I do realize that, but therein lies my point, his family saw to him, they didn't take up with dealers and pop out kid after kid by other dealers, they busted their butts and did something productive, and Obama clearly learned from that example.

Kids in the circumstance that Tarkia Wilson PUT them in, don't generally do that.

I don't know if they're better off without her or not, its not enough that someone be "mother" they need to be a GOOD mother.

Now you tell me, what kind of things were those kids going to learn growing up with her sterling example (add as much sarcasm as you can at the end there)

I'm not saying its not a tragic death, but if the kids wind up living with somebody RESPONSIBLE, that doesn't put them in relationships with the daily possibility of drug raids, then yes, I'd say they'd be better off.

If a black woman got hit by a train when she's walking on the tracks, do the white train driver is a racist?

There's a panacea for the Black Americans out-there; if they are in trouble for any reason, they can claim racism. Regardless if the Black inmate population received a fair trial before landing in Jail, regardless of all the Affirmative-Action (I.E. institutionalized racism) they are enjoying and regardless of all the contraceptive solutions in the world, the "Race Card" is still strong and alive.

It is just like novocaine, it numbs them. At that moment, regardless of the effort put in any enterprise, if it fails, they are blameless. The whole "Race Card" covers all the sins. Who needs judgment when you can safely shift the blame to whitey?

Tarika Wilson was walking on train tracks for a long time. She had six children in eight years with six different petty criminals and she was living with one. This attitude is senseless and stupid. If she was white, the sticker "White-Trash" would had been stamped on her without much thinking but since she's black we can't even use the term "Litter"?

We need to wake-up. Tarika Wilson was just a dumb woman who din't realized that she was walking on railroad tracks. The train caught with her.

I note that you add "Despite the fact that almost all racists deny the charge." Um, wouldn't a NONracist deny the charge as much so as an actual racist? How does one come through that circular logic of yours?

This is what I love -- people who think.

MEAM, the issue really is child endangermentwhen it comes to ahving a drug dealer for a boyfriend. If the norms of the cmmunity find that acceptable, then the whole community is screwedup, the whole culture of that community.

The situation is exactly analogous to parents who cook meth in their homes with small children around. Washington State finally began to make a dent in that when they started removing children from homes. And oh by the way, the parents who lost their children were overwhelmingly white and rural.

You may very well be unaware of this because you live on the other side of the country, and also frankly because there is not a network of community leaders denouncing the government for this policy, and also because the problems of white rural people get less press than about anything else in this country. I gather from your comments you would have to think carefully as to whether or not to call these parents unfit.

Brian, for you to refer to anyone as a marginal thinker is certainly the pot calling the kettle black, if I may be permitted a small bon mot.

Incidentally, Righteous Bubba is probably the sharpest blade on the entire innert00bz at the neat pink by rejoinder. The fact that you aren't equipped to recognize that is certainly not surprising, since the misAdvice Ungoddess you so clearly worship has herself minimal grammar and vocabulary skills.

Speaking of English comprehension and cognitive ability, I certainly hope ol' ma of 3 isn't homeschooling. And why does she have three kids? (Oops, excuse me: Three kids!!???!!!!!!!!-Is that enough punctuation to enable you to understand the emphasis?) Didn't you know what was causing alla them thar rug rats to be birthed? Amy will be around to your house to give you a stern talking to about that litter of yours any moment now, I'm sure.

Ms. Alkon, you may not be racist. I personally think you're an equal opportunity hater. I think you had some bad experiences as a child and are trying to get revenge on the people who hurt you(Catholics, maybe? You sure seem to have a hate-on for Catholics.) That's too bad, and I'm sorry for you that you had those experiences in life, but you shouldn't let your bad start in the world and the extreme unpopularity you experienced as a teen stop you from making your very best effort to develop the skills you need to become a happy, fully functioning human being: Empathy, compassion, and decency. That you would use the tragic death of a young mother to promote your indecent views about an entire community indicates that you haven't developed those skills.

By the by, the charity work you cite in the previous column doesn't mean shit if your motives are to throw your influence about and act as some kind of awful Lady Bountiful. The fact that you mention it as a means of discrediting those who point out the cruelty of your previous post is a fair indication that you're not doing the charity work out of the goodness of your heart, but to influence your somewhat limited acolytes' perception of you as a "good person" and to provide cover for your hate site.

One last thing: The fact that brian thinks NEAMBA is coming from a Libertarian site is hilarious. When did Libertarians develop compassion and a sense of social justice for people who can't get ahead in life? I must have missed that transformation. If such a transformation has indeed taken place, it is surely to their credit.

I'm done. This is all too depressing. Eventually one needs to avert one's eyes from the bloody wreckage strewn on the interstate.

brian,
you said:

If Tarika Wilson had died in a drive-by from a rival crew, and Amy had written the same exact story, NEAM would not have shown up, because the blackness of the victim is ancillary to HIS story - which is Cops Bad.

Sure, and if I had an mba, I'd have to change my handle.

You probably know Amy Alkon a whole lot better than I do, but I seriously don't see her claiming that guys doing a drive-by shooting placing a higher value on black (or white) life than whoever got shot. Even in order to support her crusade against bad parenting.

But go on pretending that I'm the one with shitty arguments.

I note that you add "Despite the fact that almost all racists deny the charge." Um, wouldn't a NONracist deny the charge as much so as an actual racist? How does one come through that circular logic of yours?

Um, yes a NON racist would deny the charge as well. But try and (for you Amy) think it through:

Accusatron 9000: You are a racist.
Racist: No I'm not.

Malfunctioning Accusatron 9000: You are a racist.
NONRacist: No I'm not.

So, when I add my statement, I'm just letting Amy Alkon know that her denial is worthless without anything backing it up.

"When did Libertarians develop compassion and a sense of social justice for people who can't get ahead in life? " So your though would be that those of us who climbed out of a hole by ourselves should financially and morally support those assholes that see being poor and fulfilled as their right? If you can't get ahead in life take a look in the mirror.

Compassion has it's limits and empathy doesn't apply. You can empathies with someone who is trying. She stopped trying after kid 3 or 4.

*By the by, the charity work you cite in the previous column doesn't mean shit if your motives are to throw your influence about and act as some kind of awful Lady Bountiful.*

And you got to this decision about Amy's classroom work by canvassing the kids she's helping? Because that's whose opinion counts.

Frankly I don't care if she's doing it to be on the cover of Paleface Interloper Magazine, if she's helping, she's helping.

So, in addition to not being an MBA, you're also admitting to being a malfunctioning Accusatron 9000.

That would explain a great many things.

Candy - I get a migraine trying to think down to your level.

Amy trying to defend herself from charges of racism is like me trying to prove that I'm not a Cylon. Nothing will be good enough for people who see racism everywhere.

Ms. Alkon, you may not be racist. I personally think you're an equal opportunity hater. I think you had some bad experiences as a child and are trying to get revenge on the people who hurt you(Catholics, maybe? You sure seem to have a hate-on for Catholics.)

Really? Tell that to my Catholic boyfriend, who graduated from Bishop Gallagher high school, and attended Our Lady Queen of Peace in Detroit until he went to school.

Do I also have a hate-on for rich white women? Because I used the litter term for them, too, when they squeeze out, well, litters of children.

Clearly, what I don't like is people who have children they cannot possibly devote adequate financial and emotional resources to.

I actually don't think about the kids who were awful to me, but I see their hatred of me and their treatment of me as a product of the nonthink promoted by religion. I encourage people to think rationally, and I rail against all god-centered religions: Judaism, Christianity, and especially, the death cult known as Islam.

Am I "cruel" in respect to the way I decry single mothers who fuck multiple drug creeps without condoms and extrude a passel of daddyless children? I sure hope so. And as somebody above said, maybe if her mother passed on similar cruel talk about this, she'd be alive today and thinking about moving up in her career and maybe meeting a nice man with a legal job and dating him and learning about his character, and then marrying him and having two children.

Two children: my architect/USC prof neighbor and his architect-turned-stay-at-home mom wife who does design jobs here and there from home struggle to support that many. They don't go to restaurants -- haven't in years -- and drink $3 wine, and rarely buy clothes for the parents...everything goes toward their kids. This is the right thing to do.

What if a kid needs to go to the dentist? What if six of them need to go? And by the way, kids need to go to the dentist for preventive care, and to learn to value their teeth. If you're a single, 26-year-old mother, knocked up by various disappeared drug dealers, how do you pay to send your kids to the dentist? Do you just let their teeth rot? Of course, there's always asking your current drug dealer boyfriend to do some big deal for you, maybe set up a bunch of little dealers to sell smack outside the elementary school. Not saying that happened -- just a just suppose.

But if you have a drug dealer in your life...what kind of example are you exposing your children to? And how can you, as a single mother with six children and no daddies, possibly teach those kids values and morality? Especially when your values and morality are so clearly lacking already.

My mother told me it was best not to have premarital sex -- and went into detail about why she thought this. Premarital families? Of six? Hello? Anybody home out there.

I happen to be a libertarian. I call myself a personal responsibilitarian. Personal and community responsibility are what I'm calling for here. Yeah, how terrible, how cruel, how disgusting of me.

A note to my regular commenters: Should I ever go soft in this department, please kick me back to terrible, cruel, etc.

Troubrouk,

here's your wonderful insight:

If a black woman got hit by a train when she's walking on the tracks, do the white train driver is a racist?

There's a panacea for the Black Americans out-there; if they are in trouble for any reason, they can claim racism. Regardless if the Black inmate population received a fair trial before landing in Jail, regardless of all the Affirmative-Action (I.E. institutionalized racism) they are enjoying and regardless of all the contraceptive solutions in the world, the "Race Card" is still strong and alive.

It is just like novocaine, it numbs them. At that moment, regardless of the effort put in any enterprise, if it fails, they are blameless. The whole "Race Card" covers all the sins. Who needs judgment when you can safely shift the blame to whitey?

Tarika Wilson was walking on train tracks for a long time. She had six children in eight years with six different petty criminals and she was living with one. This attitude is senseless and stupid. If she was white, the sticker "White-Trash" would had been stamped on her without much thinking but since she's black we can't even use the term "Litter"?

We need to wake-up. Tarika Wilson was just a dumb woman who din't realized that she was walking on railroad tracks. The train caught with her.

Maybe if the train tracks went through her doo and up into her room, and di so with no warning or announcement then you might have a point. A no-knock raid on a house known to have children inside followed by live fire into a dark room. Maybe you don't understand this - but this is a shitty shitty bad bad situation. It's clearly negligent. It's shocking that it wasn't found to be criminally so - except that we're dealing with a white judge and an all-white jury.

But let's forget about race for a while - you think I'm obsessed with it, so I'll drop it just for you.

A veteran police officer with ten of his SWAT team mates execute a no-knock search on a building known to have children in it. One of the officers fires into a dark room because he believes he's being fired upon - despite seeing no muzzle flashes. He kills a woman holding a baby - and injures the baby as well. The room fired on has five other children under the age of 8 in it. At the end of the day, the warrant produces a small amount of crack cocaine with a street value of less than a thousand dollars.

Does the policy of no-knock warrants need review? Is that a bigger or smaller issue than the fact that the dead woman was a bad parent?

I note that you add "Despite the fact that almost all racists deny the charge." cHow does one come through that circular logic of yours?

I was going to say exactly the same thing, but since you have, I'll just turn around and refute that point.

Wouldn't a non-racist deny the charge as much so as an actual racist? Of course not, a good non-racist should accept the fact that he or she is a racist.

You probably know Amy Alkon a whole lot better than I do, but I seriously don't see her claiming that guys doing a drive-by shooting placing a higher value on black (or white) life than whoever got shot.

People do not target my architect neighbors and their children for drive-by shootings. They do not live a lifestyle where they would endanger their children. Doing so would suggest they do not place a high value on their children's lives.

If this woman cared about children, she would've had them in the best environment possible for the children to have successful, healthy, happy lives: Waiting until she was a mature adult with a career and a husband to move to a safe neighborhood and have one or two children, which she would raise with great care, teaching them morality, and taking them to the dentist, and seeing that they weren't in harm's way, around drug dealers.

So, in addition to not being an MBA, you're also admitting to being a malfunctioning Accusatron 9000.

Sure. I'm a malfunctioning Accusatron 9000. In fact I even have the extra XXXTREEEMMM Outrage Kit with scale model action figures.

For all you folks who have accused me of "missing the point", I think you have something to tell brian.

"The David Howard incident for example - and basically all incidents where people aren't supposed to use the word "niggardly"."

Just so we're all clear, including David H., the words "niggardly" and "nigger" have nothing to do with each other. "Niggardly" (meaning ungenerous or stingy) has been around for centuries is likely based on the Norse words "nig" and "hnoggr" (miserly). "Nigger" is a corruption of the word "negro", which was derived from words that mean "black".

As for painting Amy, and others here, with the "racism" brush:

Those of us that have spent some time on Amy's site know that she is not racist. I for one would not be spending time here if I thought she was racist.

And no, this case is not simple. Few things are.

The choices and decisions we all make in our lives, regardless of our race, background, upbringing or living conditions, can and often do come back to haunt us. Tarika Wilson's choices and decisions, and those of her boyfriends, in the end contributed to her and her children being present when the police raided her house. Simply put, if you smoke you're statistically more likely to get cancer.

Her choices, as regards her many children and their completely inappropriate fathers, were at the very least poor. They would be still be poor choices if she was pale mauve with stripes.

Amy's referring to these many children as a "litter" is no doubt offensive to some. It is not inherently racist. It is a commentary on this woman having child after child after child by inappropriate fathers. There aren't many words besides "litter" that mean "a whole bunch of babies", which is the point she was making - the quantity, not the colour.

Whatever Tarika Wilson's choices she didn't deserve to die, and the fact that her life choices contributed to her death on some level does not negate all the other stuff that happened. It also does not excuse the behaviour of the police.

In the final analysis the person responsible for Tarika's death is the cop who fired at her. From accounts of the shooting this officer likely behaved badly (weapon on auto) and may have reacted badly (out of panic, fear, poor training, stupidity, or some combination). He should be held accountable and has not been. The reasons for the lack of accountability could be any combination of racism (black victim, white cop, white jury), lack of evidence, police cover-up, fear of retaliation by the police, corruption - we may never be completely sure.

The fact that the cop got off does not prove that the shooting itself was racially motivated, and it does not prove that Amy is racist. It is simply deplorable.

That's okay brian. I know it hurts you to think. That's probably why you don't do much of it. It feels so good when you stop.

Ah, the birds are singing outside, and I'm going to clean house and then go walk in my neighborhood, a lovely older urban neighborhood peopled by black folk, Africans, Bosnians, rather wealthy white people, some quite poor white people, and lots of Hispanics both documented and undocumented. They are all, to a person - even the drug dealers and us single-parent full-time college students -better people than most of the regular Alkon commenters. (I feel free to generalize here, it's obviously the mode on this site.)

Ciao!

Does the policy of no-knock warrants need review? Is that a bigger or smaller issue than the fact that the dead woman was a bad parent?

It's a different issue. One that thanks to Radley Balko's excellent work, is discussed at many sites, including I think, this one.

But now you're claiming the fallacy of the excluded middle as a virtue.

Amy and others should be free to discuss the issues they wish to discuss, and even discuss multiple issues at the same time, without having to meet someone else's agenda or priority list, or triage list or risk being called names.

It's not an either-or situation.

No knock searches are horrible AND we can discuss that this woman was a terrible parent.

Amy Alkon,

Okay then. What's the standard? I'm in my thirties, so I'm well overdue in considering having kids. What income level do I need? I'd guess that you'd place my maturity level at too low too, so Advice Goddess, what would be considered as a sign that I'm ready. Oh, and since you're model family requires two parents, I am in a stable long-term monogamous relationship and have been for many years. Now tell me, how much mooolah is required before I can be considered a responsible potential parent.

Also:

http://www.lukeford.net/profiles/profiles/amy_alkon.htm

A really good interview with Amy, where the author writes: "I try to bait Amy into something bigoted but I fail miserably. It's just not in her bloodstream."

Sure. I'm a malfunctioning Accusatron 9000. In fact I even have the extra XXXTREEEMMM Outrage Kit with scale model action figures.

For all you folks who have accused me of "missing the point", I think you have something to tell brian.

Brian! NEAM is a childish troll who plays with action figures and thinks he's an intellectual whose arguments aren't subject to disagreement!

But then, you knew that.

And Candy is a holier-than-thou thoroughly modern girl who can afford to live in a vastly diverse neighborhood that she can take all the credit for, because, you know, she's showing how unbiased and non-racist she is, and how intellecutaly enlightened she is, just by living there! She's totally prejudice-free! Of everything! She's so much better than the rest of us! We should be so lucky to be blessed with her postings here!

/sarcasm

PS - Now watch for the barrage of "what-a-piece-of-shit-Flynne-is!" posts. It'll be fun, I guarantee it! I'll just sit back and wait for it, because my gods, I'm such a clueless asshole, and have no concept of enlightenment or any kind of intellect whatsoever! I'm so base! I'm so obstuse! I'm so [choose your derogaroty adjective)! What fun! o_O

not even an mba,

I think Amy would say however much money you have is enough, as long as you and the other person remain committed to making sure that whatever child you produce is nourished physically and emotionally, are able to provide all the boundaries your child needs to grow up well adjusted and with a healthy respect for society's laws, and the wherewithal to make the hard, but right, choices for them. And give them the ability to think and act for themselves within the boundaries of law and order would be an added bonus that will serve him or her well all through his/her life.

But the abilty to feed, clothe, and shelter all of you without government assistance would just excellent. I left that part out.

Candy are going to make good your promise you uneducated baby maker. Ah the joys of accepting the fact that I'm a self serving classiest pig and a worse person than the average drug dealer :)

"Now watch for the barrage of "what-a-piece-of-shit-Flynne-is!" posts. " I'm thinking those will mainly be directed at me now.

Deion,

It's certainly not inconceivable that Tarika Wilson met the requirements you listed, or at least would have if no-knock raids, where bystanders are fair game if they're close enough, didn't produce so much collateral damage. Although it certainly is a stretch for Anthony Terry, it's not impossible that he met most of them too.

So I guess it comes down to the fact that it's okay for the police to kill whoever they want so long as they're looking for drugs. After all that's the only explanation for why Tarika Wilson is so obviously a horrible parent.

It's okay, vlad, we can share! Oh and I meant "obtuse" in my previous post. My fingers sometimes get away from me when I'm typing, but I can usually spell. o_O

So I guess it comes down to the fact that it's okay for the police to kill whoever they want so long as they're looking for drugs. After all that's the only explanation for why Tarika Wilson is so obviously a horrible parent.

Oh. my. gods. You didn't just post this, you ignoranus. You have now proven beyond any minute shadow of a doubt that you have missed every point of Amy's posts in every way conceivable. Way to go, jackass.

"It's certainly not inconceivable that Tarika Wilson met the requirements you listed, or at least would have if no-knock raids, where bystanders are fair game if they're close enough, didn't produce so much collateral damage." Did you miss the whole "with a healthy respect for society's laws" part of her comment?

Flynne,

Wouldn't want to disappoint:
"what-a-piece-of-shit-Flynne-is!"
You are such a clueless asshole, and have no concept of enlightenment or any kind of intellect whatsoever! You are so base! You are so obtuse! You are so [choose your derogaroty adjective]! What fun! o_O

That do the trick for you?

How about - all the things I've said here, they're still here. You want to make me look like an idiot? Please do. I find it hard to believe that I could have commented so much without leaving enough garbage for someone to throw in my face - but no one's left a mark. Come on you staunch defenders of Amy Alkon's honor, here's your business degree-free dragon, all full of himself with ego enough to blot out the sun. I'm waiting.

"So I guess it comes down to the fact that it's okay for the police to kill whoever they want so long as they're looking for drugs. After all that's the only explanation for why Tarika Wilson is so obviously a horrible parent."

Stop guessing - it doesn't come down to any such thing, and nobody has said so. How is this an "explanation" of anything???

There aren't many words besides "litter" that mean "a whole bunch of babies", which is the point she was making - the quantity, not the colour.

But "a whole bunch of babies" isn't the usual definition of "litter" either, catspajamas!

It usually means a whole bunch of babies squeezed out by the same animal at the same birth.

So if you suddenly had a litter, you'd need a fairly roomy pair of, um, pajamas!!

Jody: So, suggest a more appropriate word. Still, not the point: the term was intended to reference the quantity of kids, presumably overa short time period. Still not racist.

*So I guess it comes down to the fact that it's okay for the police to kill whoever they want so long as they're looking for drugs. After all that's the only explanation for why Tarika Wilson is so obviously a horrible parent.*

I think it's high time American education included mandatory coursework in logical thinking and argument --- starting in the 6th grade and repeating every year until graduation.

That was a really poor post.

Choosing to have a kid with a drug dealer (or five drug dealers), keeping him as a boyfriend, and letting him live in your place? Not sure that makes you a bystander. Magic 8 Ball says, "Very doubtful."

(If Carmela had been shot during a Federal raid on Soprano's compound, would Carmela have been a bystander?)

"You are such a clueless asshole, and have no concept of enlightenment or any kind of intellect whatsoever!" Your a half literate race baiting butter dumpster :) We can all resort to name calling none of which is productive but it can be amusing.

Ohh, pre-emptive strikes!

Flynne, vlad,

I stand by my statement. You don't know shit about who Tarika Wilson was, you don't know shit about what her beliefs were, you don't know shit period. All you can say is what a horrible person she must have been to have had so many kids in such a horrible way.

Is it obvious that she was a bad parent? The only people who knew her and have commented on her parenting skills have praised them. When she was confronted with clear danger of many armed men swarming her home, she stayed with her kids - she died holding her baby. Maybe you guys are right, maybe she was an abusive evil woman who slapped her kids around and called them worthless every day - but you don't fucking know that.

Her biggest mistake, based on the evidence presented, is that she placed her family in a situation where the police were likely to shoot the crap outta anything. Only the idea that the police should be shooting everything up because theres a couple of grams of crack in the house is FUCKING STUPID.

But please go on about missing the point and being an ignoranus.

"That came across as plain nasty and provocative - especially from someone with your username."

Yes, I have kids. AFTER I got married, AFTER we could support them. It pisses me off that a decently large chunk of my husband's paycheck every month goes to paying for OTHER people's kids they had no business having and can't support and don't really care about anyway, apparently.

As I stated in a comment on the other thread, I save my sympathy for those deserving of it. Not people who put themselves in harm's way and then get harmed. AFTER a life of other really stupid decisions on their part.

I have the same opinions of whacked out methheads letting their white kids run rampant through the streets in dirty diapers. They are scum too. Should they die, the world's better off.

And I did say I was sorry for her kids, because they are kids and helpless about the situation they've been thrust into. Even though they are statistically a lost cause already.

I used to be a bleeding heart liberal. Then I moved into our little 'hood here. Now, I see the fucked up decisions these people make, and have NO sympathy whatsoever.

And what is with people knocking Amy's stance on single moms, saying widows have no choice?? When has she ever talked bad about widows? She is against people CHOOSING to be single moms. And that does include a lot of divorcees, who get divorced because they just aren't "excited" anymore. Not all divorcees, but a lot of them.

Yeah, moar of you. Come on, and pile on. I obviously said something dumb...

Only do try and address the quote in context. Then again, you've already admitted to not understanding the meaning of the word "context" so whatever.

Your statement makes no sense, and you don't know shit about who Tarika Wilson was either.

And a lot of people have said a whole lot more than "what a horrible person she must have been to have had so many kids in such a horrible way", or have you not been reading?

"The only people who knew her"??? Seriously? And nobody has criticized her parenting skills, because we have no evidence on which to do so.

And again the stupidity/incompetence of the police in no way diminishes the fact that she made a string of stupid choices having multiple kids with multiple drug dealers.

In fact, that cop places a lower value on the lives of anyone that doesn't have a badge as compared to almost anyone else in the story...

Let's see, the cop places a lower value on the life of a drug dealer or the drug dealer's cohort than on his own...yep, he's racist.

Storming into a drug dealer's den has got to be a nerve-wracking experience (no matter the level of SWAT-like training you have).

I'm betting most SWAT teams don't sit around the station house chatting about the overwhelming majority of drug dealers who surrender immediately and cooperate peacefully.

On the contrary. Drug dealers typically amass large amounts of weapons and show very little compunction in using them.

They don't amass these weapons because they're hobbyists. They amass them because being raided by bullet-spraying rival gangs is a normal hazard of the job (like carpal tunnel to an EDI clerk).

Choosing to live with a drug dealer is choosing to live with his hazards (rival gangs, police raids, overdoses, etc.). Subjecting your children to those hazards is irresponsible parenting.

Perhaps she couldn't wait to have kids until she had finished college and had a job. Perhaps she couldn't move to the suburbs and raise her kids in a white picket fence neighborhood. She could have made an effort to avoid living with (and having more kids with) drug dealers. She could have tried to get help from the church and community leaders that professed such love and respect for her in the aftermath of her being shot in a drug raid.

Jerry,

You should take your Magic 8 Ball and show it to Lima Police Chief Gorlock. He thinks Tarika Wilson was a bystander too. But he's probably a cop-hating anarchist like me too.

Now tell me, how much mooolah is required before I can be considered a responsible potential parent.

It depends on where you live. Kids deserve to be fed healthy food, to be taken to the doctor when they are sick, to be given dental care, and to live in a safe neighborhood and to be given healthy associations and protected from crime and bad influences. If you have enough money to do this, and the character to raise ethical, educated, good citizens, and you also have a partner to help you in this, and you provide your kids with a loving stable home and a relationship with you that makes for secure attachment in your kids (see Bowlby) I'm all for it. Otherwise, kindly restrain yourself to feeding the squirrels, or, if you qualify for caring adequately for a pet, get a cat.

We can already see you're not very rational, so that is a minus, but there are many irrational people who still qualify as adequate or even good parents.

And I know, all many people require in parents is a working sperm shooter and working ovaries, but to me, that's not parenting, it's a recipe for fucking out little tragedies with legs.

You want to make me look like an idiot? Please do. I find it hard to believe that I could have commented so much without leaving enough garbage for someone to throw in my face - but no one's left a mark. Come on you staunch defenders of Amy Alkon's honor, here's your business degree-free dragon, all full of himself with ego enough to blot out the sun. I'm waiting.

I think you do a swell job of making yourself look like an idiot without any help from the rest of us. Just reading your posts proves that. You keep throwing out straw man arguments, and people keep refuting them, and you're just as oblivious and obtuse as when you first posted. Good luck with that ego-enough-to-blot-out-the-sun thing. Where'd you get that from, '300'? Great movie, the CGI was fabulous.

"You don't know shit about who Tarika Wilson was, you don't know shit about what her beliefs were, you don't know shit period." No we don't know shit about what she thought or what she believed. We are not judging her on what she though or felt, we judge her on her actions which were inherently dangerous. How the hell can you judge someone for what they feel, what they say and do is different.

Well, no, I guess it's not inconceivable. But its highly unlikely. I guess maybe I should have included specifically that showing your children that engaging in, or benefitting from the sale of drugs is ok, is not the way to raise them in a nourishing environment. I don't give a damn if Anthony Terry was the father of half of them.

There are multiple reasons that she was a terrible parent; the least of which being that she had not fully realized the maturity it takes to raise 1 child, let alone 6.

This incident, while tragic, was not the extreme overuse of force that happened to Sean Bell. All the fact that there were children there meant was that the police should have taken a lighter tact, which I'm sure they did, still accidents do happen.

I could argue that even if no shots were fired and everything went down peacefully that she would STILL have those children taken from her because of where she had them living.

You can have your point of view. All I'd like to see you do is point your outrage somewhere it would be better served. Like at young women like Tarika Wilson, who should see this as a cautionary tale for the lives they lead. Not at people who see her faults and speak on them.

catspyjamas,

I have stated repeatedly that I don't know shit about Tarika Wilson. But I do know this - I'm not the one saying that her decisions were the reason why a cop shot her.

And please note it's "the only people who knew here and commented on her parenting skills". That's a much more specific group.

Whereas there are plenty of people who didn't know her from their own newspaper delivery boy and who have said that she's a horrible parent and bears at least part of the blame for being shot.

"Maybe you guys are right, maybe she was an abusive evil woman who slapped her kids around and called them worthless every day - but you don't fucking know that."

Not even: There are a few ways to be an incredibly bad parent. I don't need to know her "personal belief system" to judge the decisions that we all DO know she made. Namely, continuing to become pregnant, keep the children and raise them in a dangerous environment with a lack of positive role models.

Abusive parents are bad parents (been there done that - it sucks!). But to me, the environment in which she CHOSE* to raise her children is akin to abuse. They don't have a snowball's chance in hell at a good life (good = stable, healthy, happy, productive).

*Chose = she specifically chose because she had the children and continued living there. Maybe she might have gone to a shelter or had fewer children and worked an extra job or lived with one of those relatives who give her such high praise. Bottom line, while her life might not have included a future at Harvard it didn't have to be where it was. Because she decided to have it that way. Society didn't do it to her. She did.

Her parenting *skills* are irrelevant. The cop is irrelevant *TO THIS SPECIFIC CONVERSATION*. The cop is important to the many conversations that can be had regarding this specific story. But we're talking about bad parents. And what makes bad parents.

Cops shouldn't cowboy up with weapons. Cops should be trained...

...but a reasonable person can reasonably expect that living with a drug dealer could end up with severe law-enforcement consequences and/or thug consequences.

Now, drug raids, drug policies and bad police officers are a separate topic which are important and relevant to the story...but not the ideas about Ms. Wilson as a parent.

If she wanted drug dealing legalized then props - I support her doing that. But maybe it's wiser to abstain from living with drug dealers while it's still incredibly illegal and the persons involved are usually not too chipper...and carry guns...

I think you're shifting the goal posts, though I think I aided and abetted and may have initiated that with my Carmela Soprano analogy.

The Chief of Police is discussing her shooting, where she was a bystander.

You were discussing her merit as a parent, saying she is innocent of charges she was a bad parent, and we are saying that her participation with these drug dealers was her choice and that she's not a bystander in that.

RS: "Here's my value judgment: I think momof3 should spend more time parenting and less time commenting. It's not that I agree or disagree with her numerous posts on this blog, it's just that she seems to spend a LOT of time in front of a computer for someone with little children at home. In my experience, having a mom who is not "present" and engaged in the day to day stuff is almost as bad as having no mom at all."

Heard of preschool? Blackberrying while waiting in the pick-up line? Naptime? My kids were accepted to the top academic school in Austin. Did NOT happen b/c their mom "isn't present". Are you at work? Maybe you should work.

But yes, you are right that mentally absent mothers are almost as bad as no mother. Whether the absent one is watching her soaps, or addicted to internet, or whatever.

"Jody: So, suggest a more appropriate word."

No thanks, cp!

But I would genuinely like to know whether Any would ever consider introducing her thoughts on the death of this woman as an "appropriate" discussion subject during one of her talks to inner city schools.

(btw, I don't think Amy is racist. But she does sometimes produce flypaper columns attracting some very nasty comments.)

My hunch is that Amy would not.

On the practical grounds that her reasoning might be misconstrued, and her then defensive audience might not hear anything of enduring value she had to say.

And on the same topic, while I am here and do engage my kids and read to them, etc, I also don't hover all over them to the point they can't do a damn thing for themselves, or entertain themselves. It's a balance. Kids need some space too.

In my experience, having a mom who is not "present" and engaged in the day to day stuff is almost as bad as having no mom at all."

How about having a mom who takes you and your siblings to live with her drug dealing boyfriend? Where does that fall on the "bad parenting" scale with you?

(sigh) Her decisions aren't "the reason why a cop shot her". We don't know what his reasons were. Her decisions are simply, as are all decisions, a contributing factor to what happened to her. Its not a matter of blame - its a matter of realizing that what you do in your life can have consequences.

I bike to work every day. I don't wear a helmet for reasons of pure vanity, although I realize that if I did wear one it would reduce my chances of sustaining a head injury. If I now get hit by a car, and am injured, the reason for my injury is that I got hit by a car, but my failure to wear the helmet is certainly a contributing factor.

I have stated repeatedly that I don't know shit about Tarika Wilson. But I do know this - I'm not the one saying that her decisions were the reason why a cop shot her

Oh bullshit: "So I guess it comes down to the fact that it's okay for the police to kill whoever they want so long as they're looking for drugs. After all that's the only explanation for why Tarika Wilson is so obviously a horrible parent."
Posted by: not even an mba at August 13, 2008 11:08 AM

NONE of us are saying that her decisions are the REASONS WHY a cop shot her (pay ATTENTION now), we're saying that she got shot because she was in the wrong place at the wrong time, with her children, BECAUSE of her decisions. That's not the same thing. Why do you refuse to comprehend something so simple?

Amy Alkon,

Thank you. That was a reasonable response, and it could certainly be argued that that was way more than I deserved. Now I ask, are you absolutely certain that Tarika Wilson was a huge failure in these regards? Seriously. I know that I'm not addressing some of your slower commenters - you've said yourself that it's important to think things through.

If it were not for the authoritarian regime that is the War on Drugs, not only would Tarika Wilson be alive, but she'd still be the mother of six. Based on what you know - can you say that she's a horrible mother?

And while you're thinking it through, since I'm so needy and demanding, please bear in mind the level of proof you should be considering to issue a call for her to be shamed and ostracized by society - despite already having six kids.

But I would genuinely like to know whether Any would ever consider introducing her thoughts on the death of this woman as an "appropriate" discussion subject during one of her talks to inner city schools

I wouldn't. I think it's a much better motivator to tell kids they'll end up poor with a horrible job -- and after I've made what I do, and just jobs that are fulfilling and meaningful, look exciting, fun, and possible.

I tell these kids about my hard times -- working as a chicken (in a chicken suit), working as a mover for $5 an hour -- as a way to get where I was going. I point out that I did my struggling in my 20s, when I slept on a sleeping bag on a door on two milk crates at one point, because I couldn't afford a bed. I also point out that that's the time you can sleep on somebody's floor, and that now, at 44, it's just not an option anymore.

If you get pregnant in your 20s, before you have time to develop yourself and your career, you screw up this timetable, and then you have these little beings you're responsible for. You probably never become what you could be.

That, in light of telling them how I get to write in coffee shops, and go to France and sit in cafes with my little dog, and be on the radio and TV...and not because I was rich, but because I work really hard, and because I put in my time in my 20s...that's a much better motivator.

Flynne: we're saying that she got shot because she was in the wrong place at the wrong time, with her children, BECAUSE of her decisions.

not even an mba: Her biggest mistake, based on the evidence presented, is that she placed her family in a situation where the police were likely to shoot the crap outta anything. Only the idea that the police should be shooting everything up because theres a couple of grams of crack in the house is FUCKING STUPID.

Please tell me the difference. The only different that I can see is that I believe the police shouldn't be allowed to break into your house and shoot you.

If it were not for the authoritarian regime that is the War on Drugs, not only would Tarika Wilson be alive, but she'd still be the mother of six.

She'd be alive only until the next gang decided to take out the competition or tried to move in on her boyfriend's territory. Or a desperate addict needed the contents of her purse for his next fix.

The fact that drugs are illegal is not a contributing factor to Tarika's death. The fact that she lived with a drug dealer is.

Based on what you know - can you say that she's a horrible mother?

Yes.

Again, if she had six boyfriends who were Subway managers, or bus drivers, or architects, or vice presidents of accounting firms, it's unlikely she'd be dead today, and it's unlikely her children would be motherless. (Who, by the way, do you think is going to care for those children now? Do you think she had disability insurance through Lloyd's of London, like my late friend Cathy did, because she had ONE daughter to take care of? That's being a good parent.)

You are what you do.

Tarika Wilson was a bad mother.

"Only the idea that the police should be shooting everything up because theres a couple of grams of crack in the house is FUCKING STUPID." They shouldn't be, and we have no idea how much crack they thought was in the house. You're speaking from hindsight here.

"Please tell me the difference. The only different that I can see is that I believe the police shouldn't be allowed to break into your house and shoot you." They shouldn't, except under clearly and legally defined circumstances, and nobody here has suggested the should.

NEAM: The difference is that you refuse to see the difference! The difference is, if you aren't living in a house with a drug dealer, chances are you won't get raided and/or shot at! OF course the police shouldn't be allowed to break into your house and shoot you, but that's the risk you take when you deal drugs or hook up with a drug dealer. WHY don't you want to see that? Even if I were a rich white bitch. Ever see the movie 'Scarface'?

Amy Alkon: Tarika Wilson was a bad mother.

Okay. And thank you again for taking this seriously. I complemented your ability to handle trolls before, and I do so again.

I personally don't understand how you came to this. Altough I've read a lot of stuff about this case, I don't feel I could make that determination.

In my own defense, at the minimum, I got your commenters to think a little bit more, and I got them to stop calling her a crack whore for a while. And at best, you have to admit that I've been entertaining.

"If it were not for the authoritarian regime that is the War on Drugs, not only would Tarika Wilson be alive, but she'd still be the mother of six." This would only be correct if she did not then associate with a different criminal (pimp, hitman etc.) for purpose only she understood. If we knew why (or presumed) she associated with the dealers then your argument has merit. If she either liked the precived security or the money she'd have done it regardless, just a different kind of criminal. We know that she was not with them for the drugs. If she was a user then your argument would be spot on, if the drugs were cheap and easily available.

"I got your commenters to think a little bit more, and I got them to stop calling her a crack whore for a while. And at best, you have to admit that I've been entertaining." I'll give you that one. You started with the name calling but otherwise agreed.

As to the rest of you - enjoy your narrative where junked up Tarika Wilson was planning on using baby Sincere as some sort of bludgeoning tool to attack the SWAT Team - obviously he'd have been a deadly weapon since he'd be so covered with scars from where they were injecting him full of heroin.

Enjoy your circle jerk of spite, and enjoy the fact that Tarika the promiscuous is dead - maybe she'll serve as an example to other girls who want to be promiscuous. After all, promiscuity should be punishable by death.

And enjoy your authoritarian dream world where the police can do no wrong - or even if they can, the best bet is not to question it at all.

You may now consider this dragon slain. The force of your lack of arguments has me scurrying back to the compassionate libertarian catholic anarchist Black Power lair that I must have come from. But in the end - wasn't a good time had by all - well except for Tarika Wilson and her family.

.... "bludgeoning tool" ??? Is NEAM even reading anyone's posts? And WTF does promiscuity have to do with it?

*And at best, you have to admit that I've been entertaining.*

No, you haven't. You've been incomprehensible, illogical, circular, insulting, and rude. Your arguments have consisted of straw men and ad hominem attacks wherein you paraphrased or sarcastically re-stated the positions of others and then attacked them as if they actually held these newly-invented positions of yours.

Ultimately you have refused to admit the flaws in your logic. Declaring victory and leaving the field with self-awarded commendations is a meaningless bit of ego protection. Stop complimenting yourself, you don't deserve it.

Noto bene -- I can tell from some of your posts that you'd like us to see the tragedy of the situation. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't care about it, but the universal law is that of cause and effect --- how did she cause herself and her child to be put in the line of fire in a crack house? She moved into a crack house.

Bad choice. Bad result.

.... "bludgeoning tool" ??? Is NEAM even reading anyone's posts? And WTF does promiscuity have to do with it?

Yeah, I know catspajamas. I think he only sees what he wants to see, no matter what he reads. I never once accused Tarika of being a crack whore, although I did allow that promiscuity was probably a contributing factor to her having 6 children. he even thinks we're stupid enough to not question authority in a "dream world where the police can do no wrong - or even if they can, the best bet is not to question it at all."
*shrugs* I don't know who he thinks he's trying to impress, but whereas he once vilified Amy, I think now he might even like her! Go figure. o_O

I personally don't understand how you came to this. Altough I've read a lot of stuff about this case, I don't feel I could make that determination.

This is surely because you are of the mush-minded belief that one shouldn't make "value judgements" about other people.

Teen mother has numerous babies with a nearly a half-dozen different drug dealing men, and takes up with another drug dealer, putting those kids lives in jeopardy and providing a seriously bad example. I have to wonder who was supporting those kids? Were these kids on welfare, or was one of the boyfriend supporting them with drug sales? A woman who consorts with numerous criminals can't be teaching her kids to be upstanding citizens and work hard for a legal living, now can she? I could go on, as I have above.

What kind of moron thinks they don't know enough, on these above actions alone, to say as mothers go, she was a terrible one?

Working ovaries and the ability to spread your legs for some uncondomed drug dealer do not a mother make.

Yep, I think I detected flickers of admiration towards the end. And please, PLEASE let it be the end ; )

enjoy your narrative where junked up Tarika Wilson was planning on using baby Sincere as some sort of bludgeoning tool to attack the SWAT Team - obviously he'd have been a deadly weapon since he'd be so covered with scars from where they were injecting him full of heroin

You know, if you don't have a big scarlet M tatooed on your forehead for moron, perhaps you should consider it.

I think it's terrible this woman was killed, and I think it's terrible judgement on the part of the police to serve a warrant for the boyfriend in a house where there were six children.

What's being said here is this: live/consort with a criminal and you put your chidren at risk. Couldn't be more obvious.

Dear God. This has been like reasoning with autistic ferrets.

Thanks, MonicaP! o_O *wipes Fresca from monitor, keyboard and shirt*

MonicaP is racist towards ferrets!!! And the autistic! (Sorry, couldn't help myself : D )

*Dear God. This has been like reasoning with autistic ferrets.*

Well, you can't really reason with mine, but good lord you should hear them play Mozart on the toy piano. Stunning.

Thanks a lot you humorless goats. Fucking killing my joke. I appreciate that you're used to over-the-top nonsense, but learn to recognize hyperbole when it injects a baby full of heroin.

And now I'm done.

"Dear God. This has been like reasoning with autistic ferrets." Damn it now my boss knows I'm on the internet. Electrical schematics don't result in hysterical laughter.

Apparently accusing someone of racism is like waving a magic wand - presto! No need to argue, now you got them on the run.

Only the magic is wearing thin. Alert to race baiters: your glory days are over.

Believe it or not, somebody once wrote a letter to the editor about me for making a remark about autistic monkeys.

http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2004/04/14/the_culture_of.html

Oh and Candy??? Are you a stripper (supporting that daddy-less kid while working your way through school, right!) or do you just pretend to be one?

I actually already HAVE my degree. Got it BEFORE I had kids. Also, got married before I had kids. Guess your condom broke. Tough luck there.

Ok, that was low. I'm sure you love your kid, and better to have it than abort it. But do not throw rocks at those of us who are way ahead of you both in life and education. Having values, and judging those who do not, is a good thing. If someone killed your kid, would you think they just had no other choices in life and shouldn't be judged?

It's OK. I, myself, am an autistic ferret, and I feel I can speak for the autistic ferret community.

"It's OK. I, myself, am an autistic ferret, and I feel I can speak for the autistic ferret community."

'Nuff said - no problem at all then.

Technically Monica Would be specist twords farrets as they are of a different species

@not even an mba -you wrote
Lima, Ohio has a race problem. There are longstanding issues between the police force and the black community in the city. Between the polarized sections of the city. This is not a simple case, much like how most stories about race are.

Technically Lima doenst have a race if the black community has a problem with racist cops. Did you not read the articles?

No one from Lima, white or black, wants to be a cop, the police cheif said most of the police forces officers are out of towners.

Why does no one from Lima want to police their own streets?
Why has no one asked this question

Be more specific NEAM. Please quote where someone said "her decisions were the reason why a cop shot her". That sounds like a shortcut from what has actually been said to what you think it means.

We have a reason the cops were there: to do a no-knock raid. We have a reason the cop gave for shooting: it was dark, he thought he was being fired on, etc. Those are not the reasons a cop shot her.

We DO know that Tarika Wilson's current boyfriend was a known drug dealer. That is a fact.

We also know that drug dealers are targetted for arrest by police. And that in many cases, dangerous, no-knock raids are undertaken in order to complete that arrest. That is a fact.

Finally, we know that she demonstrated a pattern of choosing drug dealers as boyfriends. That is a fact.

What has been said more precisely is that if she had chosen otherwise she and her children would not have been in a situation where she might be caught in a police raid and been shot, accidentally or otherwise.

And you keep saying she was judged a good mother as stated by members of her family, so we cannot judge otherwise because we didn't know her. I disagree. I can make a different judgement if my objective measure of what makes a good mom excludes multiple, fatherless children and living with a drug dealer. As someone said, I don't care if she baked fresh bread every day, I cannot judge anyone who makes those decisions as a "good" mother. She could have been really "nice". She could have been really "kind". She could have "had a good heart". But those decisions cannot equal "good mother" in my judgement. She put children at risk = bad mother.

That you disagree with that measure of judgement is clear.

Ackk...I'm so late in my comment its all been said. Sorry. Work can be such an interference!

"Dear God. This has been like reasoning with autistic ferrets." Damn it now my boss knows I'm on the internet. Electrical schematics don't result in hysterical laughter.

I wouldn't say that. I've seen some pretty hysterical schematics in my day.

I've seen LOTS of hysterical code in my day.

And you get some strange looks when you start to look at someone's code, and you fall out of your chair laughing and gasping "I can't believe he did that!"

We don't need to make you look like an idiot NEAM, you do that just fine all by your lonesome.

The raid on her home was the natural result of living with a drug dealer. Now she had to know that, and it wasn't a moment of lonely weakness, she'd BEEN doing that since 18. Frankly it is amazing that it hadn't happened before.

The cop who fired into the dark room didn't do so because he didn't value anyone else's life. He did it because he DID value his own. You can't just assume the best, no, you assume the worst and you protect yourself.

Is it obvious she was a bad parent?

HELL YES!

There is no such thing as a good parent that has child after child by men who will NOT be there to be fathers, whose careers endanger their children's lives, and put them deliberately in harms way. A good mother does NOT have a drug dealer sleeping in the room next to her children. That is totally the OPPOSITE of good mother. She made bad choices, she taught bad choices, and she had a bad end. Why is that surprising?

"The only people who knew her and have commented on her parenting skills have praised them."

Those same people thought her life choices and choices of partners were good ideas. Consider your source genius.

The cop who fired into the dark room didn't do so because he didn't value anyone else's life. He did it because he DID value his own. You can't just assume the best, no, you assume the worst and you protect yourself.

Is it obvious she was a bad parent?

HELL YES!

Hard to add anything about it. That line of argument should had been put to death days ago. The lady set herself in a precarious position and ended-up dead. Simple.

"Do you believe, like Radwaste does, that blacks are in trouble with the law ten times more often than non-blacks because they are racially predisposed to be criminals - by a factor of ten."

I'm amazed that anyone so bereft of reason can even type.

It's not my "belief". That's in the Bureau of Criminal Justice Statistics. You, NEAM, ignored that. I suggest that this is because it conflicts with your personal views, nothing more, because you're trying to trivialize the existence of those stats.

I've shown you why the police raid a drug dealer's home, since you didn't know why he wasn't taken on the street. You ignored that.

I've shown you how a kneeling figure is still a threat during a raid. You ignored that.

I've shown, in so many words, how your continued assertion that the police think what happened was OK is so much flame bait. Your response? Yet more nonsense about everything being hunky-dory at the police station.

You're still here, wasting air and bandwidth, trying desperately to be seen as having something worthwhile to say - without once having looked things up, or apparently spoken to anyone of experience. If you have, you haven't repeated anything they told you.

Apparently - and here, I'm being careful not to put any words in your mouth as they are absurd enough already - your utopia consists of drug dealers treating a woman as a revolving door, with her continuous help, in an inviolate sanctuary immune from prosecution from the law.

Of course that's not true. What IS true is that you don't have any alternative to offer, having spent all your time emoting rather than reasoning.

Were I in position to compel treatment, I would require you to attend one of these classes - that is, provided you can meet the entry requirements.

The key to the outrage attending this incident is that people cannot understand what happened. If you're going to be an advocate one way or the other regarding the use of deadly force by anyone - the police in this case - you should know what you're talking about before outgassing. So far? No.

How about having a mom who takes you and your siblings to live with her drug dealing boyfriend? Where does that fall on the "bad parenting" scale with you?

Can't even remember who made that comment - but I agree that's about the worst parenting example. On a scale of 10 (with 10 being the worst parenting choices) that would be about an 8. I understand Amy's point of view and I agree with it.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with momof3 comments, just hornswaggled that a mom of 3 spends her precious alone time making numerous comments on this blog. She must have someone clean her home and cook her meals, because that's what I did when my kids were napping/at preschool/etc. when they were young. (They're all grown now. I need to find a hobby and get off the internet.)

Not that it matters momof3, but I never even read this blog while at work, much less post comments. If you have time to post comments while still making a wonderful home for your family, then good on you.

Lima, Ohio has a race problem. There are longstanding issues between the police force and the black community in the city. Between the polarized sections of the city. ... No one from Lima, white or black, wants to be a cop, the police cheif said most of the police forces officers are out of towners. ... Why does no one from Lima want to police their own streets? Why has no one asked this question?

...tearless Lima, the strangest, saddest city thou can’st see. - Herman Melville (Moby-Dick)

Just wanted to point out hat isnt one quote Conan

The first three sentences were from not even an mba

Just a week or so ago I wrote a post on this very subject, What is the white thing to do?

The picture is very bleak, bleaker in fact, than Amy could convey in this one incident. Slanging her is a perfect example of shooting the messenger.

The upshot of the thread? A council of despair.

Gretch: Shoot me an email

"I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with momof3 comments, just hornswaggled that a mom of 3 spends her precious alone time making numerous comments on this blog. She must have someone clean her home and cook her meals, because that's what I did when my kids were napping/at preschool/etc. when they were young. (They're all grown now. I need to find a hobby and get off the internet.)"

My my, I think I've made a conquest. Someone sure is interested in how I spend my time. My house is spotless, BTW, it's for sale right now so it has to be. Given my southern mom upbringing, it would be acceptably clean even if it wasn't for sale. I roasted a turkey 5 days ago. Then the next night had turkey endhiladas. Turkey chili. And we ate out one night. Since you're so hornswaggled as to what I do for my family and with my time :) I don't know many women that roast a turkey outside of nov/dec.

I am also president of a non-profit group. (www.austinmoms.org for those so obsessed with me they need to know more)

And I even manage to have sex with my husband often enough to keep him faithful. Go me. I think it just tales me a loooooot less time to read than it does you. Cause this little fun site I stumbled on one day doesn't really take more than 20 mins a day. And that only when I find it such an interesting topic.

y'know

Hmpf, madness.

Really, how this woman's irresponsibility could even be argued over is beyond me.

Situations don't arise mystically out of nowhere, we make our own beds.

She apparently only had drug dealer men in her life...OK, so what does that mean?

Well, it means she wasn't looking for dates at a county library or her child's school, god forbid she should think to date a teacher. She probably wasn't asking out the grocer or the fruit stand guy or the pizza delivery folks either....

And she apparently somehow had enough time to meet not just one...but what was it...SIX different drug dealers?

Any single parents on this site? Question, how much time do YOU have to date seriously? Probably not much with very young children, even LESS on minimal income.

Yet somehow this woman found a new dealer virtually every year, and popped out a new kid almost every time. (All of this paid for how?)

Now odds are she wasn't running into these characters at her work place, (I am assuming she was employed) so where was she going, the local corner to pick up rock slingers? And when? Did she work during the day or night, how much of the kids time at home did she spend with them? Was "Mommy be back" the first cogent sentence the eldest could say to his junior?) I don't know, but I can only imagine what it must have been like wondering what new adult would be thrust headlong into my life out of nowhere.

And did these men each live with her for the time they were with her? How does a developing child deal with that kind of revolving door parental presence, even when its responsible people, not dealers? Not in a good way I'll say that.

Do we get to ask ourselves "what were you thinking?!" yet?

While you think about that, think about this, dealing drugs is bad juju, nothing good or respectable about it, and the people who do it rarely have a sterling moral character except for that one flaw. They aren't selling drugs on Saturday night and donating their time to orphans on Sunday morning. Hell no, what other violence or flaws of conduct or character did they inflict upon helpless children?

Think a drug dealer is above slapping a kid that gets into his stash? Or just annoys him? Oh but she'd never allow that...uh huh, and just how else is she going to keep feeding whatever kid she'd most recently brought into the world? Pregnant nearly every year, I wonder how much she actually worked?

The more I think about this particular case...

The more I have to come to the conclusion that this particular woman screwed up her life every step of the way, she didn't make one mistake, she didn't even make 5 or 6, she made conscious choices in the wrong direction every step of the way, ending it all prematurely when she stayed in a dark room during a raid on her live in dealer boyfriend.

The cop who shot her didn't set out that day to take a life, and he didn't fire into a dark room hoping to kill anyone. He fired into that room because he could not tell if he was being drawn on or not, drug dealers can and DO kill, and being an officer of the law is no protection, because he could not see if he was about to die or not, he chose to act preemptively, as ANY sane person would, not just hope it was a dealer with a conscience, he fired, she died.

Ironically, if the kids get responsible guardians, maybe they'll grow up to be responsible people.

Not dealers like the revolving door "daddys" that mommy kept bringing home after they're done dealing.

Amy - I've asked in various postings, out of genuine interest, and you've yet to answer.

1. When you write ". . .Not having children without daddies, not having the children live in a dangerous environment, etc., etc., etc." are you saying that lesbian couples should always remain childless? Are two daddies ok, or is that terrible, too?

2. Is it ok to start a program at a high school in a poor neighborhood or does it have to be the "inner city," which I maintain you keep using as a euphemism, as many people do, for poor and, usually, minority? Otherwise why assign a geographic rather than economic term to it?

3. If children learn by example -- which you say above by way of explaining why this woman shouldn't have lived as she did (no argument from me there -- a woman who brings home drug dealers or even man after man is not a good mother, almost by definition. Ditto for dads) -- then how can you be so unforgiving of people who had the bad fortune to grow up in those circumstances and . . .learned by example. I don't think it's an either/or. I don't think a childhood in poverty or other horrible conditions is an excuse. I do think it's sometimes an explanation.

Disagreement over language and the absolute ruin you seem to insist all fatherless children face, I've read enough to know you're no racist. Cell phonist, obnoxious kid-ist, bad driverist, yes, but were it so that more people were.

mba - Do you believe, like Radwaste does, that blacks are in trouble with the law ten times more often than non-blacks because they are racially predisposed to be criminals - by a factor of ten.

No. "Race" has no scientific meaning. I think it more likely that they are culturally disposed to be criminals. In the UK we have "sink estates" where the problems are similar - perhaps not so extreme, and not colour-related. I don't seem how a person growing up in a place with rotten city architecture of rotten buildings and rotten families and no examples of beauty, truth, honour, courage can have much chance of bettering themselves. A few manage, but the rest have broken, beastly lives. No-one here knows what to do about it. My friend deals with children whose parents have died or simply abandoned their offspring; her stories melt my heart, turn my stomach and infuriate me all at once. But all her hard work is no more than a sticking plaster; and state benefits (though well intentioned) may well contribute to the continuation of the sordid state of affairs.

Does that answer your question?

(VIC) An African-American is an American citizen who was born in Africa. An Italian-American is an American citizen who was born in Italy. And so on, and so on...

(Flynne) Ah, NO. You can't be an American citizen unless you were born here on American soil, or took the American citizenship test and passed.

What are we doing, arguing over the definition of a citizen? I literally meant a "citizen," in the legal sense. If I meant "resident," I would've said so.

'S okay, VIC, momof3 took me to task for that waaaaaay back at the beginning of the thread. My misunderstanding, etc. and so on. Mea culpa. Done.

not even an mba -

I don't have time to dissect these arguments, and even if I did, they are being capably handled by others. But since you want to throw some names around, here are a few you might consider

Heather Mueller
Brad Heyka
Jason Befort
Aaron Sander
H.G. (The survivor, whose name has never been released)
Channon Christian
Christopher Newsom

And so.many.tediously.many.more.on.and.on.and.on.

Robert, I take your point and go one further: Even if she DID only know drug dealers (which is very unlikely as you point out), it's not a law that you HAVE to date. And even if you date, you do not have to get pregnant. And even if you get pregnant you do not have to give birth. And even if you give birth, you don't have to raise the child (I'm talking adoption, not leaving it at the side of the road!). And even if you keep the child, you don't have to repeat this four, five, six, or more times!!!

Just wanted to point out hat isnt one quote Conan

The first three sentences were from not even an mba

That's why they're italicized.

"Ah, NO. You can't be an American citizen unless you were born here on American soil, or took the American citizenship test and passed. Try to keep up. I'm an AMERICAN. I was born in Pennsylvania. In the United States of America. My ethnic heritage is English, Irish, Welsch, German, and Sioux Indian (of the Oglala tribe). "

that puts you one up on john "born in panama" mccain.

Ah, mike, as I told VIC, I was already taken to task for my error. Mea culpa and all that. Also, I am not running for president. I'm not one up on anybody.

Wow, it really struck a nerve with you, didn’t it?

What you don’t seem to realize is that there are ways to broach the subject without using dog-whistle words that make people think you’re just a racist bitch.

What you don’t realize is that you could have simply apologized for having all the sensitivity of a cinder block and using such a pathetically poor choice of words, and moved on to proposing some actual steps we as a society can take to deal with the problem, or showed some sensitivity to the plight of an undereducated, pathetically poor, product of urban ghetto life.

But noooooo… you had to get all defensive ‘n’ shit about your “blame the victim” essay. Sure, there’s plenty of Black folks who declare that the Black community needs to foster more responsibility within their own society, Barak Obama among them (I’m surprised you didn’t reference his Father’s Day address.) And one of the major proponents of such an idea is Louis Farrakhan, though I doubt you'd like to give him the credit for such proclamations as, “Put down your drugs and pick up your books, put down your guns and pick up your children!” at the Million Man March.

But you act as if all the poor woman had to do is put on her coat, pack up her six children and walk out the door and go… where? Oh, right… she should have never hooked up with drug dealer/daddy #1 in the first place. She should have packed up herself and gone… where? To her urban ghetto public school with the cracked walls and flooded toilets and uncredentialed teachers with no textbooks? To a community college she couldn’t afford, even if there was one she could get to with no car or money for even a bus fare? To a crappy minimum wage McJob where she couldn't make enough to feed herself, much less any children? She should ignore the fact that the only men in her neighborhood with money she’s ever known are all drug dealers, who regularly use violence and threats of violence to intimidate their girlfriends?

No, what’s important is that we assign blame and use the cleansing power of guilt to make it all better. Yeah, that’ll work…

If none of those things are possible Joe, how is it that some people DO make it from such backgrounds? I don't think anyone ever suggested it was easy. What is unfortunate is that living such a way is excused so quickly as unavoidable. Maybe if it wasn't such an easy and acceptable excuse, more people might consider taking different paths than the easy one. I understand the tone may bother you, but is that message really so bad?

"White person calling a black person a monkey - racist.
Black person calling a white persin a monkey - less so." How so? IMHO, it's just as racist.
"Black person calling a white person a pig - racist.
White person calling a black person a pig - less so." How so? IMHO, it's just as racist.

"All you people are saying "well is this racist? Or is this racist? How about this? I mean what - like you need my permission?" There seems to be this little racist thing labelling us racist if we don't run it by your PC meter first -- as in if we criticize a black person for exactly the same thing we'd criticize a white person for. In other words, I'm free to call my sister out for being the slut she was but if I call Tarika out for the exact same thing, I'm racist. I'm with Amy on this. I'll be damned if I will. I'll be damned if I don't treat black people as individuals exactly as I do white people.

"Here's a question for you - what do you think constitues racism? Do you believe that there is any racism in the US?" Yessiree, bob, I sure do. But I'm not racist enough to think that only whities are racist. I'm finding you pretty goddamned racist, I gotta tell you. Not that you give a shit. I'm just a honky bitch judging you as an invidual by the words you put on a computer screen. How fucking dare I? Who the hell do I think I am to pass judgment on you?

Oh, but of course, the more we claim not to be prejudiced is just more proof that we are. Damned if we do and damned if we don't. Gee, I wonder why. Couldn't have anything to do with your racism fuels the false belief that all those crackers are bigots, could it? Any Caucasian considers one black woman a crack 'ho must think they all are. No, nothing similiar there to thinking all whites are privileged, is there?

"You probably won't believe me but yes. I absolutely would be offended and vociferous if a no-knock raid ended up with a dead white woman and injured white baby and a getting off scot-free cop (of any race) and then the issue was used by someone to cast aspersions on the dead woman. Most definitely yes." What if the woman and children were white but the cop black?

"It's certainly not inconceivable that Tarika Wilson met the requirements you listed, or at least would have if no-knock raids, where bystanders are fair game if they're close enough, didn't produce so much collateral damage. Although it certainly is a stretch for Anthony Terry, it's not impossible that he met most of them too." Um, no, they didn't. Not even close. I guess you missed not only the bit about being law abiding but about being there for said kids -- which dope dealing/using engenders. (And, please, anyone who lives with 6 is using, addicted, I don't know, but at least using and more likely than not addicted. Those of us who spur dope also are kinda of turned off by dope dealers. Just because her mommy didn't know she was using doesn't mean she wasn't.)

Oh, and speaking of her mommy, frankly, I'm doubting she was a good mother either. If my daughter had 6 babies in 7 years time (even with MBA's not drug dealers) I wouldn't be praising her parenting skills, I'd be saying what the hell's the matter with you? If even one were known to me to be a drug dealer, I'd be suing for custody even with the slimmest evidence. When my daughter became sexually active, I asked her point blank was she ready to parent, she said she'd have an abortion, I told her I didn't believe she would for one second so how did she plan to take care of baby if she did (note my moniker) especially if daddy didn't stick around. She got pregnant and guess who picked up the slack? At 1 child with a guy who has in the past been a bit of a fuck-up but who has for years now been flying the straight and narrow and I still ask what the fuck were you thinking? Result of that and being forced to live with the consequences of baby #1, it's been 4 and 1/2 years now and baby #2 does not yet exist. I am holding my breath even though I mostly think she's learned her lesson on that score because she obviously doesn't always listen and/or think rationally before acting. But I sure as hell am not condoning and applauding her for having a baby before she was ready even though it comes nowhere near to comparing to Tarika and, you think, that maybe, just maybe, the fact that I'm not might play some small part in her not repeating stupid behavior. Like I said previously, her and me. She learned the hard way and I didn't undo that by saying way to go even though it wasn't. I can love her and T without acting like she acted responsibly when she didn't.

However, unlike his other grandmother, I would never call T a mistake behind his back let alone in front of him (as she did). I don't think of him that way even though his birth should have been prevented. I think of him as a surprise and a very pleasant surprise at that. Whether or not he should be here, he is and he's a great kid. But I'm damned if I'm going to act as if my daughter didn't screw up. She did.

(Yeah, I know NEAM'S cut and run, or says he has, but I started this as I responded to posts before his "flight" and thought I'd submit anyway. He can read or not. I'm saying what I'm saying regardless.)

Now, however, maybe I can spend something less than all day on it.

Oh, and Momof3, ignore it. I did my cooking and cleaning (and often enlisted her "help") while my daughter was awake and indulged my since childhood bookworm habit and my teleholism when she was asleep.

Actually, it is that easy. Go to a shelter, apply for assitance. Because God knows us tax payers should support this nonsense. But, still, preferrable to increasing the abuse.

And many do just that. Put on their coat, pack up their few possessions and walk out the door to at least no drugs and no man knocking them and their kids around. Once out of said situation, you'd be amazed at how able you are to pull your shit together, get off welfare and take care of yourself and your kid(s).

Been there, done that. Even my slut sister has but we don't count, do we? We were just the white trash in da 'hood.

What you don’t realize is that you could have simply apologized for having all the sensitivity of a cinder block and using such a pathetically poor choice of words, and moved on to proposing some actual steps we as a society can take to deal with the problem, or showed some sensitivity to the plight of an undereducated, pathetically poor, product of urban ghetto life.

The velvet-glove sensitivity is part of the problem.

And the first step that society needs to take to deal with the problem is to start dropping cinder blocks on people's feelings and telling them to get off their ass and DO something.

Amy! You're in a hole! Stop digging!

Joe Max you fucing moron, did you not read the article?

It was HER house, she was renting it. She didnt have to move all she would have had to do is NOT INVITE HIM IN in the first place

Why dont you use the amorphous mass that sits inside your skull and READ

Here's some advice, Goddess.

Usually wearing a white hood is considered offensive, but in your face, it would be an improvement.

I get busy at work and getting ready for back-to-school so I can't keep up with the blog and look at all the fun I missed! I'll start by saying as I was reading down the comments I spent a lot of time sputtering at the computer screen, but fortunately, plenty of people were able to respond to the foolish comments in a timely manner so I didn't have to shake my fist for long. But a couple of items:

NEAM, you haven't posted lately, so you may have left, but one comment you keep making that has me bugged is "The only people who knew her and have commented on her parenting skills have praised them." Well, honestly, what did you expect her mother to tell the newspaper reporter right after she was killed? "We're actually quite glad this happened, since her continuing to shoot out kids like some kind of broken PEZ dispenser had us all very concerned."

The actual facts make it clear that she was a horrible mother. It doesn't matter if she told someone else she loved the children, her actions clearly demonstrate she only loved herself. There is no way a 26 year old woman in her situation could have provided for six children emotionally or financially. And the fact that she was living with a string of known drug dealers shows that she didn't care about their physical safety either. You can continue carrying on about how horrible we all are because we "don't know her situation" but we do in fact know her situation quite well. The facts are there for anyone to see, you have just decided to ignore them.

And to Joe Max:
She should ignore the fact that the only men in her neighborhood with money she’s ever known are all drug dealers, who regularly use violence and threats of violence to intimidate their girlfriends?

Here's a crazy thought, if all the men that she's ever known treat women like that, maybe she should go to someplace where there are men that don't. Then those men would learn that behavior doesn't work and would modify it. Is it hard? YES, but so what? Nobody said life was supposed to be easy, and myself and probably at least a couple of the other women (and maybe some men) on this board are proof that it is possible. Stop trying to blame everyone else and start taking some personal responsiblity for your life. If you are in a bad situation, change it.

Friendly Advice, that was the intellectual equivalent of "You're a poopy head." Got anything else?

"blah blah blah ....just a racist bitch."

Joe Max, you historical illiterate, this use of "litter" to describe clutches of kids goes back at least to the Middle Ages to describe the children of peasants, long befroe any English-speaker had ever seen black people, long before slavery and race baiting. It's classist, not racist. Sheesh.

And as Brian pointed, apologies just feed the passive-aggressive, moralizing, controlling, race-chasing Church Ladies of the world, who really need to be fed rat poison instead.

Amy, keep telling it like it is.

The greatest and most crippling barrier to black achievement is the persistent, self indulgent belief that white people are the barrier to black achievement.
A lie goes halfway around the world while the truth is still putting it boots on, and this is one truth that is (at long last) fully dressed and walking out the door.

"I'm well overdue in considering having kids. What income level do I need? "

I have a 1 year old. From my experience you need to have a spare $1,200 per month. And, embarassingly, that's without saving for college. Economies of scale: the second would probably cost me around $1,000 per month. Don't have it, so I don't have a second kid.

On topic: I just don't care enough about nabbing each and every last drug dealer that I'm willing to write off these deaths as collateral damage. Not in my name (god, did I just say that?) Plus, that could have been me and my baby. Like Ryan Fredrickson, I have some tomatoes growing in the garden and a misdemeanor or two laying about the house. I'm quite confident in my defense lawyer's abilities, but that won't matter if I'm dead on the floor.

If only the converse to this discussion were true: that living a felony-free life ensures you won't experience a midnight no-knock raid.

>>I have some tomatoes growing in the garden and a misdemeanor or two laying about the house.

I tried "tomatoes" at college but was never a great fan. Cucumbers, on the other hand...:)

On a serious note, I agree smurfy.

Smurf and Jody,

Those are good points. I absolutely agree with ending the drug war - it is ineffective at best, counterproductive at worst and is one of the many, many federal initiatives currently making a mockery of the constitution. No argument from me there.
But lets not make the mistake that the cries of "whitesheetwearinraciststhatdontcarenuthinboutthelivesofblackfolks" would cease if the drug war were called off. Then we would be seeing images of the "ravages of drugs on inner city (largely black communities" and enduring accusations of "apathy" towards the problems it causes and the lives of black children 'cause us crackers don't care enough to do something about drugs. Further, more than one black "leader" would be saying from the pulpit that we legalized (or decriminalized) drugs to make it easier for black folks to kill themselves, because (of course) that is what all us white sheet wearin' crackers want.
The same dynamic is in existence today -
either we are racists because the police (for whom I am NO apologist) heavily patrol crime ridden black areas and lock up thugs (this is "preying on the black community," and "entering their neighborhoods like an occupying force"), or, in the alternative, we could pay no special attention to those desperate areas and be accused of not caring if black folks kill each other.
There is no winning. None.

"I absolutely agree with ending the drug war"

Not me, I'm closer to brian. But can we scale it back to reasonable? Of course we'll all draw the line at a different point, depending on our stake in this and how much drugs scare us.

Wow! Is all I can say. Sorry Amy, but what you said *WAS* racist. You can use attack as a form of defence all you want but it changes nothing. Has anyone noticed how the 'white community' (there is no such thing as a community based on skin colour alone) aren't ever told to do something about an individual (they don't know) who has messed up?

If you discussed this woman's case in relation to her social position, personal circumstances, educational achievement, environment etc alone it would have been fine. However, you appear to have linked her race to it which makes it racist. I'm a black woman born and raised in Switzerland but living in the US, should I be doing something about this woman?, seeing as I share her skin colour similar to hers? Do I know anything about the ghetto or drug dealer boyfriends? You probably know more than me about these things, maybe you should do something as you're part of the American community (just like her) which supersedes the AA community. This is an American problem, see her as an American first then think of soultions practical ways *YOU* could help her kids, your fellow citizens, from repeating her mistakes instead of huffing and puffing and calling human beings a 'litter'.

nat - sorry to be the one to inform you of this, but you're not a member of the "black community".

See, being black isn't the only membership criteria. But then again, thought was never the liberals strong point, so I suppose we can forgive you there.

And if you'd been paying attention, you'd be aware that the Sharptons of the world refer to white people just as monolithically as you assume Amy is referring to black people.

But the same answer as above applies there too.

Smurf,

I think that is a perfectly respectable position, within which reasonable minds could find common ground. Unfortunately, not enough people seem to be willing to have that conversation.

Nat says - This is an American problem, see her as an American first then think of soultions practical ways *YOU* could help her kids, your fellow citizens, from repeating her mistakes instead of huffing and puffing and calling human beings a 'litter'.

Unfortunately Nat, that is exactly what whites have been calling for - but see, we are racists if we don't see blacks as Americans first (when it benefits the race hustlers to protest that they are Americans first ) and at other times we are racists for not seeing them as black first (when it benefits the race hustlers to protest that they are black first).

Nat says: Do I know anything about the ghetto or drug dealer boyfriends?

I've a strong feeling you do not. So I'll take your "advice" with a strong dose of salt.

Opportunism is not a black fault, or a white fault. It is a human fault. The symbiotic opportunism between "black power" and "white guilt" becomes clearer by the day.

WolfmanMac,
Trying to be honest here - not score petty points (I like your courtesy at the moment!). I also feel - and maybe it's what Nat is getting at (above) - that you couch your arguments in strikingly abstract terms.

(That's fine when we're talking "drug war". I can logically see the free-for-all horror etc that you allude to etc. That's a huge subject. Abstract is all we've got!)

But on a deeply personal level, I feel Amy keeps asking the wrong question. It's not whether she IS racist, but whether her words could be easily construed as such.

I don't think I anxiously police my thoughts or words when I'm in the company of middle-class friends who happen to be black. The particular family I'm thinking of here would shake their heads in despair too - at all the circumstances surrounding this killing.

But I honestly wouldn't dream of bombastically lecturing them about the responsibility the dead woman bears for her sordid death on the margins of society, & how the indignant reaction of her Lima community exemplifies the crippling "blame whitey" ideology of the Black Power brigade and its fellow travelers.

All I'm saying here - and it's not very much, I guess - is that it's important and useful for me to always have cherished friends in mind when these discussions veer into the abstract.

I can (just) imagine their reaction if I started spouting off in these terms.

It's not a happy thought.

This is an American problem, see her as an American first then think of soultions practical ways *YOU* could help her kids, your fellow citizens, from repeating her mistakes instead of huffing and puffing and calling human beings a 'litter'.

Again, I give a talk one afternoon a month at an inner-city school. You may be as black-community-oriented as some white people, as a black girl from Switzerland, but the fact remains that there IS a black community here in America and blacks are in prison at a far greater percentage than their number in the population. And see what (black) LaShawn writes: "About 75 percent (more in some cities) of black babies in the U.S. are born out-of-wedlock."

Is that racist, too, to note that -- or is it okay because she's black?

Now if racism is "animosity toward people of other races," do I have animosity toward white people if I say they have something in common, or am I just observant? Can you really look into my brain and see if I have some animosity toward black people? I mean, you're accusing me of this, so on what basis?

My problem with you and so many posting here calling me racist is what mush brains you all are. Your post reflects a low-level ability to reason.

"(there is no such thing as a community based on skin colour alone"

Many Jews and many blacks fit into a community -- share common cultural values. Many, not all. I was born Jewish, and I am an atheist, and I am not part of the "Jewish community." Is there one? Of course. Same as there's a black community, whether or not you are a part of it.

And then, of course, there's the vast community of mush brains across America that you are clearly a part of. Sadly.

I see that a wrongful death lawsuit was filed 8/5. I expect a defender will win instantly with the observation that a history of drug involvement was there for the target of the raid, and that the shooting was accidental. The jury will be shown that a crouching figure looks like a threat to any reasonable person ordered to raid a house where violent resistance is expected.

The point is expected to be made that police tour some neighborhoods of Lima differently. I think we can count on the attorneys to pick the stupidest people on the planet - people who can't figure out that the entire neighborhood looks different for a reason: crime.

Needless to say, I don't think any of the fine young men with whom Ms. Wilson associated care for their offspring at all. We won't see them at trial.

If I'm wrong, great. All they have to do is show up and say what they want.

Nat,

With all due respect, why should I help Tarika's kids? I didn't bring them into this world and I'm not responsible for them. Pity neither was their mommy -- or their daddies.

They are innocent victims but that does not make them my responsibility.

I have quite enough with the two people in this world who are here but wouldn't be if not for me. Namely my own offspring.

I can see doing something like Amy is -- could I'm not so I can't really claim that I would be but I do think it's admirable of her -- but I flat out refuse to have you lay the responsiblity for this irresponsible crack whores babies on me. I didn't make them.

And I can't carry the weight of the world on my shoulders.

If I was childless like Amy and more successful like her, I do think it's possible I might do something like that but since I'm not and I'm not, I can't really swear I would for sure.

But I'm already overtaxed because of the burden irresponsible assholes like the ones that made these babies put on our society. I'm not quite to the point where I want to stage another tea party in the harbor (though it's starting to feel like we need one) but I'm damned if anyone's got the right to tell me I've any further responsibility to support these crack whore's babies. I don't.

Tell you what, you want to give to them, give. Give until it hurts, give until you have to live in Crack Central with them if you like. That's your choice. (And somehow I suspect you ain't giving the shirt off your back while you preach your socialism at me.)

People complain. When people complain, they are likely to receive advice. It's likely to be advice they don't like, because if they were already doing whatever the advice said to do, there would be nothing to complain about (or they would be working on changing what they are unhappy about instead of complaining). So either complain and expect to get advice you don't like, or stop complaining.

Besides, getting a whole lot of "yeah, you're right, the world sucks, poor baby" isn't terrifically helpful. Amy is actually quite supportive, in an "I'll kick your butt for you anytime you need it" kind of way. That's how I took this post - thought-provoking and an attempt to make a positive difference.

Funny how advice from people about how to solve problems like minorities getting killed by the police, poverty, and the like are thorougly criticized and "racist", even when coming from Bill Cosby. I guess suggestions like "change your lifestyle" are just too difficult to follow. So, maybe white people should just change the entire world so that all minorities' problems are solved without them having to change their lives in any meaningful way.

I'll get right on that.

PS - Wow, this is an amazingly long series of comments. You got people hopping - good job, Amy! Love your work.

I need to knock up more white babes...

Well, I don't know if that is going to work for me, but definitely worked for you! :) Brilliant post!