August 13, 2008
Is It Racist If I Say This?
Are there certain conversations and observations that are off limits for certain people? Take this thing here, below. Is it racist, if I, a white girl, say it?
There is a crisis, to understate the matter, in the black community. About 75 percent (more in some cities) of black babies in the U.S. are born out-of-wedlock. That women should keep their legs closed until marriage is considered a naïve notion at best and a sexist/oppressive one at worst. Subversive is what it is.Some people are offended by the expression "keep your legs closed." Is it vulgar? Perhaps, but so is having babies with several different men without being married to any of them.
Confession: I actually didn't say the above. LaShawn Barber, who is not an "African-American" woman, but a BLACK woman, did. I've read her stuff over the years, and I thought I would link to/post some of it -- after the 600ish comments I had around midnight Tuesday night, accusing me of being a racist for suggesting that black leaders should condemn the behavior of women like Tarika Wilson, and for my suggestion that being around drug dealers puts oneself and one's children at risk.
Wilson, for the uninitiated, is the Ohio woman who was accidentally shot in a police raid on her house. At 26, she'd already had six children in eight years with five different drug dealer "daddies," and had taken up with yet another drug dealer boyfriend.
Do you have a problem with that behavior? If not, why not?
Here's a bit of a comment I made in the wee hours on Wednesday morning, in response to a commenter I'm now calling Bubbles, because he seems intentionally slow-witted (in his continuing attempt to get me to say I'm racist and my blog posting is racist). I wrote:
But, wait: if I use "litter" to describe a white woman's children, is that racist?I'm well-aware of the meaning of words, Bubbles. I simply refuse to write like a white woman who is terrified of being accused of being racist.
The problem with all of you accusing me of being racist is really that.
I use "litter" to describe the children of Catholic women and rich women and Muslim women in other blog posts here. It's about the number of the children not the race, religion, or socioeconomic background of the women.
The issue: The more children you have, the less care and attention you can give them. This is especially the case if you are a woman who is not married or in a longterm relationship with the children's daddy. It goes downhill from there when the children have multiple "daddies," all of whom are drug dealers.
Do none of you understand the value of a father in a child's life?
Here's more, from a LaShawn Barber blog item about an article by John Derbyshire. I particularly liked the way she started -- noting how calling somebody racist is a conversation ender; a way of knocking them down in lieu of intelligently discussing an issue. A whole lot of that going on here the other day!
Commenters who call anyone a racist in this comment thread -- Derbyshire, other commenters, etc. -- will be deleted. If you don't see your comment, that's why. Second offense, banned. Long time readers know I don't allow it. (Amy underline) It's a conversation killer used to intimidate and an easy way to avoid challenging an argument. If you don't know how to fomulate and articulate one, learn or leave.
I've banned only maybe four commenters since I've been blogging. Two, I believe, posted in other real people's names, pretending to be them. Two were just as annoying as fuck and nobody could take them anymore. Still, Barber's right about the racism label.
Barber continues:
Without stable families supporting, teaching, disciplining, and loving, the road to life success for any child is very difficult to navigate, though not impossible. With obvious disregard for marrying before having babies and the apparent acceptance of out-of-control crime rates -and charges of racism and "self-hater" against anyone who expresses such facts -- black as a group will never reach levels of achievement they could have reached had the promise of the Civil Rights movement carried over to subsequent generations. High moral character, strong families, hard work, educational attainment, and self-sacrifice for future generations -- these are vital to any race of people.
Thanks, LaShawn. Somebody's got to say it, and apparently, I'm just not tan enough.
Comments
LaShawn is 100% correct about that. So too with the labels "sexist", "anti-semite", and even "troll."
Being called one of these is a killer, and invites other people to dogpile and amplify the name calling. It invites official sanctions, and makes you have to defend all your further statements.
And as trump cards go, it's a beaut, because in addition to smearing you, dehumanizing you, and avoiding having to meet your argument, it isolates you nicely. It takes a lot of balls to stand up for someone called "racist", "sexist", "anti-semite" or "troll." "Why are you defending them? You must be a racist or troll too."
Outrageous claims require outrageous evidence. And so claims of racism, sexist, etc., require very strong evidence.
So yes, these are horrible conversation killers and dialog killers and are completely unfair tactics in almost every sort of argument.
Posted by: jerry at August 13, 2008 2:10 AM
LaShawn Barber, who is not an "African-American" woman, but a BLACK woman
An African-American is an American citizen who was born in Africa. An Italian-American is an American citizen who was born in Italy. And so on, and so on...
Posted by: VIC CARS at August 13, 2008 3:25 AM
VIC CARS - An African-American is an American citizen who was born in Africa. An Italian-American is an American citizen who was born in Italy. And so on, and so on...
I have always found it fasinating the lengths people will go to try to make them something more than they really are - African American, Italian American. Are you an American or not? That is the only thing that matters, not whether you come from Italy, France or dare I say it AFRICA. Screaming that you aren't an American but an African American isn't showing pride in the African culture but showing that you think that you have to be something more than you are. If we want everyone to be equal than stop creating niches for everybody with a complaint.
Be an American and try to make the your city, neighborhood and block a better place.
And please stop saying someone is a "Racist" just because we see problems with a single mother of 6 children living with a known drug dealer. I don't give a shit if she is white, black, asian or someother color I can't spell. She put her children in danger by living with a drug dealer, deal with the reality not what we wish she would have done.
Posted by: Matthew at August 13, 2008 4:00 AM
Amy Alkon,
I think this might have been mentioned before, but the previous thread was very long, so it's easy for it to have been lost.
If you remove all context, then nothing is racist. There are criticisms that are valid coming from within a group compared to from outside. There are things that you feel you could say to your family members that might not be appropriate for someone you are meeting the first time.
There are criticisms that you can level at yourself that are inappropriate coming from someone else.
And on another point, the way you keep defending your use of the word "litter" is besides the point. Telling a white person that they are as lazy as a Mexican for example, is racist. You obviously mean the word "litter" in a disparaging way. It's becoming clear that it is your intent that we should be comparing Tarika Wilson to some sort of animal.
Finally, to address the point as directly as I can. You are calling for the black community to condemn Tarika Wilson's choice of lifestyle - but really, what do you know about it? What do you know about Tarika Wilson? Go on, repeat your mantra about the six kids in eight years from multiple drug-dealing fathers. But outside of that, you know nothing. You know nothing about her story or her circumstances. You don't know how she ended up in the situation she was in. You can't even name one of those six children. And yet you feel justified in condemning her, and her community - which you also know nothing about - because of what?
Posted by: not even an mba at August 13, 2008 4:26 AM
Nope, it doesn't. What's racist is the attitude that white individuals can be judged by black individuals -- as individuals -- but not the other way around.
What the blacks who pull this race card ought to worry about are the white people who pretend to like everyone black no matter how vile that individual is. Newsflash: don't turn your back. It's the one who views you all as a group and doesn't honestly like or dislike individuals who happen to be black that are prejudiced. So if you have some liberal white dude crying for affirmative action and welfare for moms like this one, you'd do well to ask yourself why he/she doesn't think you can make it on your own without his great white handout. Somewhere down deep in this white liberal's subconscious, he doesn't think you can ever rise to the level he has -- which is just plain stupid and silly.
Whites who aren't prejudiced will have black people they like and admire, black people they don't like, and black people they are neutral about. You know, just as they also have white people they like and admire, white people they dislike, and white people they are neutral about.
La Shawn, well said!
Posted by: T's Grammy at August 13, 2008 4:33 AM
not even an mba,
You know nothing also. You assume anyone white doesn't know what it's like in the ghetto (I'm 50 years old so I'm using the expression of my youth). But if you look you'll find a few of us there with you. And, yes, it's hard in a black skin but try it in a white skin sometime. Are you actually going to sit there and claim white skins aren't marked -- aren't a blazing target every time they go out their door -- because I know otherwise through personal experience.
As a kid, I had a (literally) crazy sister who was the toughest kid on the block that was great protection. As an adult, I had black friends that had my and my daughter's back. But you are a target in a black neighborhood. That is why I have left. I'm not very comfortable in all-white neighborhoods either where everyone is expected to be very Pleasant Valley Sunday and looked down the noses at if they don't bother to keep up with the Joneses. I tend to like downtown areas where we all seem to mix better while being ourselves.
I learned as a kid that people are all the same when we got ganged up on for being white in the projects then moved to a small town and I saw the one black kid ganged up on. I thought then people are all the same; they're all assholes -- and I've seen nothing to change my mind in the 40 years since though I've grown more to say we're all the same we're all human.
Bigots come in all colors and creeds. Before you point the finger at Amy ask yourself this question, "Would I be angry at a black woman using this term to refer to a white woman who had 6 babies in 8 years with 5 different drug dealers?" Seriously, ask yourself that question, long and hard, because your own bigotry is showing.
In other words (and I'm an Atheist using this apt quote): let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Posted by: T's Grammy at August 13, 2008 4:47 AM
mba - I don't see what context has to do with racism. Are you saying it's ok for one type of person to espouse white superiority, but racist if another type of person does? Seems to me, it's racist whoever says it.
There are criticisms that you can level at yourself that are inappropriate coming from someone else. - true, but nothing to do with racism. It's inappropriate for me to tell you that you're overweight, say - but it's not racist. There's an appropriateness dimension, but it's nothing to do with racism.
Racism is not just categorising whole groups of people by "race", which usually means "colour." It also requires making value judgements about them which have no basis. "Black people are darker skinned than white people" is a non-racist statement because it has an objective basis. There's not much you can say that does have an objective basis though, because not much correlates with skin colour. Even things that do correlate tend to have a wide variance, ie there's more variation within groups than between them.
There's no justification for racism: but nor should you see it when it isn't there.
Posted by: Norman at August 13, 2008 4:51 AM
Actually we have a term for a white woman who pops out kids quickly. Actually I can think of two terms that can be used for a white women who has multiple kids. Both terms are used in Comedy routines, some white people actually like using the terms on themselves. Here they are
White Trash/Trailer Trash
Redneck
Actually I found using the term "litter" not racist. Thru I can say I found it a bit harsh. To me it conitates things like SLUT or LOOSE.
Posted by: John Paulson at August 13, 2008 5:04 AM
An African-American is an American citizen who was born in Africa. An Italian-American is an American citizen who was born in Italy. And so on, and so on...
Ah, NO. You can't be an American citizen unless you were born here on American soil, or took the American citizenship test and passed. Try to keep up. I'm an AMERICAN. I was born in Pennsylvania. In the United States of America. My ethnic heritage is English, Irish, Welsch, German, and Sioux Indian (of the Oglala tribe).
Posted by: Flynne at August 13, 2008 5:17 AM
Sorry, that should be Welsh, no 'c' in there. Need coffee. -_o
Posted by: Flynne at August 13, 2008 5:20 AM
"Ah, NO. You can't be an American citizen unless you were born here on American soil, or took the American citizenship test and passed. Try to keep up. I'm an AMERICAN. I was born in Pennsylvania. In the United States of America. My ethnic heritage is English, Irish, Welsch, German, and Sioux Indian (of the Oglala tribe)"
Uh, no, try reading the law before you quote it. Do you really think all the kids of the american military born while their parents were overseas are not citizens? If you parents have not given up their citizenship but are merely temporarily residing in another country, you are a citizen. There may be paperwork, but you do not have to take a citizenship test.
Posted by: momof3 at August 13, 2008 5:31 AM
Sorry momof3, I wasn't quoting any law; I had forgotten about military kids. So yeah, if your parents are in the AMERICAN military (which makes them American) and you're born in an American military hospital overseas, you're an American. But someone who was born in oh, ITALY, let's say, using VIC CAR's example, is ITALIAN until he emigrates to the USA and then takes steps to become an AMERICAN citizen. He's not automatically an Italian-American. I thought most people who read what I first posted would have known what I meant.
Posted by: Flynne at August 13, 2008 5:49 AM
T's Grammy,
Well sure you can make me look like an idiot if you get to put words in my mouth. If you look through the long thread that prompted this, and I know you have since you've commented in it, you'll see some of my beefs. But nowhere do I say that all white people are ignorant of blacks, their community or their issues.
This next part is for Norma too, so you can get a feel of the concept of context.
The answer to your question is "probably not". I'd probably consider said black person just plain ignorant. But if the same black person said that some white woman was a slaveowner just because she had a black maid - that is racist as fuck.
White person calling a black person a monkey - racist.
Black person calling a white persin a monkey - less so.
Black person calling a white person a pig - racist.
White person calling a black person a pig - less so.
More importantly -
Black person calling a black person a monkey - probably not racist. Just the same way that
White person calling a white person a pig would be.
Throwing a white sheet over your kid to make a ghost costume for Hallowe'en is all fine and dandy, unless you happen to live in a predominantly black neighborhood of the deep south.
When a close friend honestly tells you that you might have a weight problem - they are risking your friendship because they care enough to want to help - and it may be annoying, but it's usually obvious that the intentions are good. When a total stranger calls you fat that total stranger is an asshole. Even if the total stranger's intent is to alert you to your potential health risks (as if you didn't know) - still an asshole.
Really, it's not that hard a concept.
Posted by: not even an mba at August 13, 2008 6:03 AM
I love how Amy can still be a racist for saying things other black people say. It's bullshit to say a person can't say things ust because they are white instead of brown or black or whatever. Quite frankly, if blacks can call themselves niggers, we should be able to also. You want respect? Stop calling yourself that. If my husband wants to call his cousin a wetback (they're all brown) others should be able to also. If I call myself a bitch, it's open season for others.
Now, all that above is a bit extreme and certainly not applicable to the statements Amy made. They were valid, and said without any connotation about race except that the facts happen to be in THIS case the woman was black.
I am thinking about kid #4. I'm pretty sure I've said something about my litter before. Litter is not a racist word and certainly wasn't meant in a racist way. Get over it. Start making something of yourself, and maybe you won't have to BE so hypersensitive!!!!!!!!
And bravo LaShawn, and Bill Cosby, and others who are trying to build up and IMPROVE things for their fellow blacks, instead of patronizingly coddling them for not being able to achieve, and trying to keep them down and dependent.
Posted by: momof3 at August 13, 2008 6:06 AM
"Throwing a white sheet over your kid to make a ghost costume for Hallowe'en is all fine and dandy, unless you happen to live in a predominantly black neighborhood of the deep south."
Are you shitting me? We southerners' kids can't dress up as ghosts? Get the perma-chip off your shoulder and join the rest of us here, in the 2008, in the real world. Please.
Posted by: momof3 at August 13, 2008 6:12 AM
Here's the issue.
All you people are saying "well is this racist? Or is this racist? How about this?"
I mean what - like you need my permission? Here's a question for you - what do you think constitues racism? Do you believe that there is any racism in the US? Do you believe, like Radwaste does, that blacks are in trouble with the law ten times more often than non-blacks because they are racially predisposed to be criminals - by a factor of ten.
Here's a view from Lima, where the shooting took place:
http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080810/NEWS17/851774718
"I'm born and raised in Lima, Ohio, so they can't tell me nothing about this place and these crooked cops around here. I went to school with half of them," said Darla Jennings, the white mother of Wilson. "It's divided. It's always been divided. You don't see too many whites coming into the black community and vice versa."
Does that sound like a place free from discrimination and racism?
One in four people in Lima is black, zero in fourteen of the Lima SWAT Team is. A bystander was shot by the police. At the time, according to firearms instructor John Foy:
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080731/NEWS02/807310413
It would seem to me the deceased was probably complying [with the order to get down] at that point
Tarika Wilson is dead. She probably did make some serious mistakes in her life - but none of us know any of the details or circumstances about them. Using her as an example of what society should ostracize and shame - come on. Even put in the best possible light, that behavior is extremely petty.
Posted by: not even an mba at August 13, 2008 6:21 AM
Are you shitting me? We southerners' kids can't dress up as ghosts? Get the perma-chip off your shoulder and join the rest of us here, in the 2008, in the real world. Please.
You know, some people who were around when James Chaney, Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner were killed are still alive today. But I guess you're right - in the 2008 - racism has been eliminated in the United States. The KKK is a thing of the past. And when a white cop shoots a black woman holding a baby - that's totally justified.
Posted by: not even an mba at August 13, 2008 6:26 AM
mba - I really think you have mixed up a whole bundle of ideas - such as "context," "offensiveness" and "appropriateness" - into one word - "racist." And "racism" is such an important thing that mixing other meanings into it dilutes it and does harm to everyone who is a victim of racism by making it harder for them to say what is going on, or even to think about it.
I don't have time to tease them apart for you - perhaps later - must go to a meeting just now!
Posted by: Norman at August 13, 2008 6:32 AM
Wait, I called my half-hispanic daughter a "monkey-girl" in another post. Oh no, I am racist! I secretely look down on my own daughter for that AWESOME tan skin color she's got! Or maybe I just hate her cause she's never going to have to rub on stinky self-tanner. OR, wait, maybe I meant that she's a good climber! No, that coldn't be, that's be too......rational. And reasonable.
Posted by: momof3 at August 13, 2008 6:36 AM
"Sorry momof3, I wasn't quoting any law; I had forgotten about military kids. So yeah, if your parents are in the AMERICAN military (which makes them American) and you're born in an American military hospital overseas, you're an American. But someone who was born in oh, ITALY, let's say, using VIC CAR's example, is ITALIAN until he emigrates to the USA and then takes steps to become an AMERICAN citizen. He's not automatically an Italian-American. I thought most people who read what I first posted would have known what I meant. "
No, Flynne, much as I generally agree with you, you're still wrong here. You don't have to be military, you don't have to be born in the military hospital. US citizens give birth to US citizens, unless they choose to take another citizenship. UNLIKE here, where mexican citizens give birth to US citizens.
Posted by: momof3 at August 13, 2008 6:40 AM
"You know, some people who were around when James Chaney, Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner were killed are still alive today. But I guess you're right - in the 2008 - racism has been eliminated in the United States. The KKK is a thing of the past. And when a white cop shoots a black woman holding a baby - that's totally justified."
You know the names of some blacks killed by whites. Name me 3 whites killed by blacks. Can you? It happens oh, let's see, about 10 times as often. Hmmm. But does not make the papers or a huge, "racism" stink. Strange.
Posted by: momof3 at August 13, 2008 6:44 AM
Norman,
I don't think I have ideas mixed up - but I do see your point. I can certainly see the argument for reserving the word "racism" for egregious and blatant behavior. But that low level subtle discrimination that minorities are exposed to constantly everyday is a problem.
For example, when a store owner spends all his time observing the black teenager to make sure he doesn't shoplift anything, despite there being white or asian teenagers in the store as well - is that racism? Radwaste would argue that the statistics say the storeowner is right to be doing just that - but seriously, without knowing anything about these people, to automatically assume that the black guy is the problem - does that constitute racism, or should we use a different word, since that black teenager isn't particularly victimized.
Posted by: not even an mba at August 13, 2008 6:46 AM
I see what you're saying momof3. What I was saying is that if you're born to Italian parents in Italy, and then come to the US, you're still an Italian until you take steps to become a US citizen. I realize that Americans who give birth overseas have babies that are Americans; I took what VIC CARS posted to mean that he thinks someone of Italian descent who is born here is an Italian-American. I think that person is an AMERICAN. His ethnic background is Italian. Yeah I know, I'm being nit-picky. But I think it's things like this that divide us and perpetuate that divisiveness. YMMV
Posted by: Flynne at August 13, 2008 6:53 AM
momof3,
Keep prissily scolding other people all you want for being, as you put it, "hypersensitive!!!!!!!!" about race issues.
Those eight exclamation points can't dilute what you wrote about the dead woman at the start of the monster thread; She was scum who's life was a waste. The only real problem with her death is the 6 kids who will be on welfare their whole life. Or, more likely, delaing drugs like their daddies till they get shot or go to jail, where they will live off our hard-earned money the rest of their far-too-comfy lives.
That came across as plain nasty and provocative - especially from someone with your username.
Posted by: Jody Tresidder at August 13, 2008 6:53 AM
Ummm, momof3 - only one of those guys was black, the other two were jews. Edgar Ray Killen was finally convicted in 2005, almost forty years after charges were first laid. But since racism doesn't exist, the all-white jury who deadlocked in the sixties weren't affected at all by the Civil Rights Movement.
Posted by: not even an mba at August 13, 2008 6:54 AM
It's becoming clear that it is your intent that we should be comparing Tarika Wilson to some sort of animal.
I have said repeatedly that I used the same term to describe Catholics, rich white women, and Muslims who have many children. Yes, I think having many children like that is animal-like. Is it because she is black? No, it's because she has many children like that, same as the rich white women, etc. Calling me racist for it is ridiculous -- and as soon as I pointed out to all the people here because they have google alerts, or somebody e-mailed them that I am racist, they should have said "Ohhhhh! We get it." But you are determined to believe that I am a racist. I am not.
And you are someone who has had your brain infected by the P.C. virus. (Shockingly, I violate some "Illness As Metaphor" rule here, too.) It's this that you write, that I can't possibly judge Tarika Wilson's choice of lifestyle. Well, if that isn't the most asinine thing I ever heard. You write it this way -- like somebody who's had all sense removed from their brain and replace by potting soil:
You are calling for the black community to condemn Tarika Wilson's choice of lifestyle - but really, what do you know about it? What do you know about Tarika Wilson? Go on, repeat your mantra about the six kids in eight years from multiple drug-dealing fathers. But outside of that, you know nothing. You know nothing about her story or her circumstances. You don't know how she ended up in the situation she was in. You can't even name one of those six children. And yet you feel justified in condemning her, and her community - which you also know nothing about - because of what?
People who write me for advice and then don't like my answer frequently come up with similar bullshit: "You don't know me." But, yes I do. Action is character, to paraphrase Aristotle. You are what you do. This woman was not a good mother. I don't care if she baked bread for her kids' lunches every day and volunteered for the homeless. Putting out children without daddies, by multiple drug dealers, and having a boyfriend in your life who is a drug dealer when you have numerous children, makes you a TERRIBLE MOTHER. You put your life and you children's life at risk. Children without fathers are much worse off than children with fathers. This woman had terrible, terrible values.
I tell the girls at the inner city school I speak to -- some of whom are white, many of whom are Latina, and many of whom are black -- not to get pregnant really young and unmarried. That they need to develop themselves first, and get a career first, and that if that if they don't, they will likely be mired in poverty all their lives. How could I know that? Well, because that's how things tend to work out for women who have babies very young with irresponsible guys they are not married to. And those kids have a terrible shot in life.
Anyone who says differently is a lying, and has some sick motive for doing so. What's yours? Are you desperate to find racism anywhere? And if so, why?
Posted by: Amy Alkon at August 13, 2008 6:59 AM
What do we know of her situation?
She had multiple children by those least ethically able to be good fathers, the least likely to remain and be fathers anyway, and the most likely to put her and her children at risk from either killer competitors or in law enforcement raids.
Now that is a combination of stupidity, recklessness, and irresponsibility as a parent, a mother, an adult, take your pick.
That much we know about her situation.
How did she get in that situation?
A. By keeping her legs open for all the wrong men.
B. By not using proper preventive measures when she did so.
Don't tell me condoms and birth control are rare commodities or are to expensive. Kids are alot more so. That being the case, chances are they weren't in use. So she deliberately entered a destructive lifestyle, and dragged several fatherless children into it with her.
See aforementioned character failings.
So yes, I can judge, and so can everyone else, and so SHOULD everyone else, so that public condemnation of such irresponsible behavior might reduce its practice.
Shame isn't always a bad thing. Especially if there is plenty to be ashamed of.
What kind of futures are those kids likely to have, even if she'd lived?
Wanna bet none of them will run for president?
Want to bet that a common phrase they'll hear is, "meet your new cellmate"?
She gave them nothing but poor role models, and demonstrated nothing but poor life choices, it is tragic that she died as she did, but at least her contribution to the cycle of self destructive choices is at an end.
If only it had ended with the right choices, instead of the avoidable tragedy that came to pass.
Posted by: Robert at August 13, 2008 7:00 AM
I just LOVE that LaShawn says she is black, not that bullshit term, "African-American."
I am not German-Polish-chasedbytheCossacksaroundRussia-American. I am American, and if you happen to want to describe me, you'll probably mention that I have red hair and skin the color of fresh Wite-Out, as I live like a bat and wear French sunblock and use an umbrella if I'm going to be in the sun for any length of time.
I have a friend who is black, who is also not "African-American," because she is not from Africa, but St. Lucia. She is also not a P.C. idiot. Oh, and guess what? She'd look down on Tarika same as I am. Because of the woman's behavior. Because it is not civilized to have six children by five different daddies, all of whom are drug dealers, by age 26. Anyone who says this is an okay life choice should call the firemen with the jaws of life to extract their head from their sigmoid colon.
I'm reminded of the time I wrote something inspired by how hard the Cubans were trying to get to America, out of a desperate desire for freedom. I pointed out that you don't see Americans, for example, little old Jewish grandmothers from Miami in their big yellow Cadillacs floating the other way: "Oy, Irving, I forgot my heart medication at the condo!"
I got letters from people who read me in Florida, saying, "How lovely that you use your column as a platform for anti-semitism."
Right.
Mere mention of somebody's race or religion is not racism. I wrote to those people, "Shalom. If I learned anti-semitism, it was at Temple Beth El, in Birmingham, Michigan, where I won a high school scholarship for a summer in Israel. That's my bubbie I'm mentioning in my column. She drove a big yellow Cadillac and lived in Florida, and I thought she'd get a kick out of being in my column."
Posted by: Amy Alkon at August 13, 2008 7:11 AM
What kind of futures are those kids likely to have, even if she'd lived? Wanna bet none of them will run for president? Want to bet that a common phrase they'll hear is, "meet your new cellmate"?
Precisely.
Posted by: Amy Alkon at August 13, 2008 7:15 AM
Anyone who says differently is a lying, and has some sick motive for doing so. What's yours? Are you desperate to find racism anywhere? And if so, why?
I said it before, and I'll say it again - I would prefer to be wrong, even now after all my grandiose posturing, than to know that someone so harshly judgmental is dispensing advice in a syndicated column.
You say you're not racist. Okay - I take you at your word, despite the fact that almost all racists deny the charge. Now put up - give us a post excoriating the Lima police force as much as you've blasted the dead woman. You've already stated your view on no-knock raids - and you've already stated your view that your concern is for the children. Now put it at the top of a page.
Here we had 11 SWAT team members raiding a house where they knew there were children, and one of them fires blindly into a dark room - incidentally the room that all six kids were in at the time. And now that we've got a dead bystander and an injured infant, they have changed nothing in their procedures. In fact the county recently announced that they are going to get tougher on crime. So go ahead - show us that you recognize that there's plenty of blame to spread to all sorts of people, despite what color their skin is.
Posted by: not even an mba at August 13, 2008 7:19 AM
Reminds me of an Obama campaign worker being accused of being racist for calling a some children climbing a tree "monkeys." The problem is that all these children were black.
I think her comment was directed at their behavior, not their race.
"Litter" is racist? Ridiculous. You could describe a gaggle of children of any race as such. I once referred to the McCaughey septuplets as a "litter."
Guess what? The McCaugheys are white.
Can the word in question reasonably be applied to persons of any race? If the answer is "yes," then it's not racist.
If you had called her children any of the widely-used disparaging terms for black people, yes, that would be racist, and it would probably indicate you're a racist.
I never thought of this as difficult.
Jerry, the first reply in this thread couldn't be more spot on. It's well-nigh impossible to stand up to an accusation of racism. Any defense is viewed as denial or concealing it. (And at times, I understand why. Michael Richards made a extremely direct reference to lynching -- on the spur of the moment -- and called his heckler "nigger" at least half a dozen times. Then he has the nerve to tell us that he's not a racist. Okay, in addition to being a racist, he's also a moron.)
Posted by: Patrick at August 13, 2008 7:23 AM
Robert,
You do realize that one of the people running for President is of mixed-race, just like Tarika Wilson was, and raised by a single mother.
"meet your new cellmate" Ha ha ha. I guess your point is that no one ever rises above their situation or circumstances - even though you've made up a lot of what those circumstances are.
Even still, Tarika Wilson was regarded as a good parent - despite her circumstances.
I guess I'm not as certain as you are that those kids are better off with their mom dead.
Posted by: not even an mba at August 13, 2008 7:27 AM
Amy- I've never found anything you have said to be racist. I don't believe for a second that you are racist. That word gets so tossed around by easily offended people it has lost all real political and social meaning.
Regarding your post two days ago, this is a subject that is so sensitive most people lob softballs, but you walked in with a bag of bricks. I admire your honesty and agree with your opinion. The use of the word "litter" is your style, as anyone who follows your work should recognize.
Posted by: Eric at August 13, 2008 7:35 AM
PS- If this woman were white, I doubt anyone would think you would let her off the hook. So race had nothing to do with it.
Posted by: Eric at August 13, 2008 7:37 AM
A thought occurs to me. I do the math, I find that having six children at the age of 26 means that she spent the bulk of the time from her eighteenth birthday until the time of her death - pregnant.
Let that sink in. 6 children, aged 1 to 8. There was no mention of a pending seventh child, so let's assume therefore that she had six children in seven years.
While it doesn't technically meet with the definition of "litter", haven't we heard quite a bit of condescending rhetoric concerning white Christian women who do this?
Is that religionist? Or is it just pointing out something that is incredibly poor form, especially if one's circumstances do not allow one to raise those children in an environment conducive to having a future greater than "inmate # 1927528" or "would you like fries with that"?
There's a reason that "child of a drug dealer makes good" is the stuff ABC after-school movies are made of.
Because they are exceedingly rare.
But you can continue to believe that in order to criticize one side of a tragedy one must denounce all actors in that tragedy equally.
NEAM - go back to Reason. They like your kind there. Here? Not so much. We aren't really into the whole "I demand that you denounce Mr. X" schtick.
Shalom.
Posted by: brian at August 13, 2008 7:38 AM
Momof3: An African-American is an American citizen who was born in Africa. An Italian-American is an American citizen who was born in Italy. And so on, and so on...
Flynne: Ah, NO. You can't be an American citizen unless you were born here on American soil, or took the American citizenship test and passed. Try to keep up. I'm an AMERICAN. I was born in Pennsylvania. In the United States of America. My ethnic heritage is English, Irish, Welsch, German, and Sioux Indian (of the Oglala tribe).
Flynne, chill out. There's no contradiction here. Anyone who has attained American citizenship, whether by virtue of birth or legal immigration IS an American. You yourself implied as much when you said "took the American citizenship test and passed."
So, yes, an Italian-American is someone who was born in Italy, took the citizenship test and now lives here.
Sheesh, what an attitude! Amy, you got enough bandwidth for this ego? Talk to Gregg about it. You may need more.
Posted by: Patrick at August 13, 2008 7:39 AM
I just love this: "I said it before, and I'll say it again - I would prefer to be wrong, even now after all my grandiose posturing, than to know that someone so harshly judgmental is dispensing advice in a syndicated column."
Yes, let's have people who have no values and no judgement dispensing advice. People who will tell you that whatever you choose to do, that's just fine and dandy. You really do have your brain firmly impacted up your ass.
Next there's this: "You say you're not racist. Okay - I take you at your word, despite the fact that almost all racists deny the charge. Now put up - give us a post excoriating the Lima police force as much as you've blasted the dead woman. You've already stated your view on no-knock raids - and you've already stated your view that your concern is for the children. Now put it at the top of a page."
I have blogged before about my problem with the drug laws, and my problem with these drug raids. I think it's irresponsible of the police to go into a home with six children present with drawn guns to go after some piece of drug scum. But that's not what that post was about. I don't blog about every single issue in every single post. This one was about the way this woman's values contributed to her death and probably a terrible future for these kids.
I do think it's terrible she died, and I've said so. I've additionally said I don't believe it's every right to take a life, even of the worst scum: child-molesting rapist murderer. (ie, I don't believe in capital punishment.)
Furthermore, I've shown you three other examples where I call women who have multiple children the mothers of litters.
Finally, I've talked about a program that I have at an inner city school, my own program that I started, simply by calling a teacher and having her put me in a classroom to speak to kids one afternoon a month, in hopes of changing the cycle of poverty and terrible values -- like Tarika Wilson's terrible values.
That you persist in contending that I'm a racist in light of being shown these facts over and over and over again says a great deal about you...such as, that you seek to find racism where there is no racism; that you are probably just bone-desperate to do so. There's something sick in you and I suggest you explore that instead of flogging what's proven over and over and over again to be (see above) a dead horse -- the idea that I am racist.
I am white. I will continue to criticize anyone, white, black, or other, who has litters of children without daddies and lives with a drug dealer, imperiling her children and very possibly to very likely setting them up for lives of crime. (Don't children learn by example?)
Posted by: Amy Alkon at August 13, 2008 7:41 AM
MBA wrote "Telling a white person that they are as lazy as a Mexican for example, is racist. "
True. However, nobody here wrote that. Please, no straw men.
And wrote "You obviously mean the word "litter" in a disparaging way."
Yes. You said that yesterday. It's meant to be disparaging. You know that already. You also know from repeated references provided you that Amy has used it for black and white women alike.
Asked and answered. Stop repeating yourself.
Posted by: Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at August 13, 2008 7:42 AM
Hey guys,
Just to prove to y'all that I'm only slightly nutty and understand a bit about your perspective - I'll throw this in:
There are obvious, clear and blatant abuses by the Politically Correct crowd to police thought and speech. The David Howard incident for example - and basically all incidents where people aren't supposed to use the word "niggardly". That behavior is stupid and potentially very dangerous and the PC Crowd should be ashamed of it.
Posted by: not even an mba at August 13, 2008 7:43 AM
Re: niggardly...what is this, your idea of a substitute for conceding that I am not racist? You're wrong in your contention that I am, and you've been shown that every which way and Tuesday. I mean, come on, what kind of racist starts a program to help inner city kids succeed, totally of her own volition, by stalking a teacher and begging to be allowed to help?
There's something wrong with you, and it's evident in the way you are desperate to find me racist. Go fix that. Or go start a program like mine in an inner-city school where you live. You're wasting everybody's time here, and that's boring.
Posted by: Amy Alkon at August 13, 2008 7:50 AM
Flynne, chill out. There's no contradiction here.
Relax your own self, Patrick, I'm chill. Read my next couple of posts and you'll see what that I've explained. Really. The people around here get a boatload of exercise jumping to conclusions so rapidly! Myself included, I'll admit it.
You do realize that one of the people running for President is of mixed-race, just like Tarika Wilson was, and raised by a single mother.
MBA, you do realize that one of the people running for President who is of mixed race had a single mother who wasn't living with a drug dealer and 5 other children by different daddies.
Posted by: Flynne at August 13, 2008 7:54 AM
And his race is about as relevant to his (in)ability to be president as Tarika Wilson's race was to her (in)ability to be a responsible mother.
Posted by: brian at August 13, 2008 7:56 AM
Not even, when the hell did Amy even once claim that there was no racism? Show me the post.
The main reason that there are more blacks in prison than whites can be attribute to several things. The fact the black communities tend to be poorer, same goes for most minority communities. The "racist crackers owe me mentality" works great on some dip shit liberal not quite so good with the state trooper who pulled you over. If you refuse to follow the law out of personal principle (the same "blackness" that got OJ off) then expect to get fucked. Racial prejudice from a small number of cops, DAs, judges etc.
BTW you should really be concerned with actual racism and not an off color inflammatory remark that while it maybe racially insensitive is not racist by dint of being racially insensitive.
"White person calling a black person a monkey - racist.
Black person calling a white persin a monkey - less so.
Black person calling a white person a pig - racist.
White person calling a black person a pig - less so."
So your argument is that speech should be a function of race? Had Amy been black and said the same thing it would be ok? She's a bigot for saying that as a white women? Are you not seeing the hypocrisies.
Posted by: vlad at August 13, 2008 7:57 AM
MBA, you do realize that one of the people running for President who is of mixed race had a single mother who wasn't living with a drug dealer and 5 other children by different daddies.
Thanks for batting cleanup!
Posted by: Amy Alkon at August 13, 2008 7:57 AM
"Now put up - give us a post excoriating the Lima police force as much as you've blasted the dead woman. You've already stated your view on no-knock raids - and you've already stated your view that your concern is for the children. Now put it at the top of a page."
Not even:
I completely agree the Lima police are deserving of both blame and attention.
Amy, as the author of this site, chose to focus on the mother's behavior - she does this frequently. Amy (and many of her readers) promote what I like to refer as an "optimal family situation." Are some kids better off being raised by a single mother? If the dad is unstable enough to be committed for a time (like my father) then yes. If the father is an awesome guy with a stable job and many things to teach the kids? No - the kid should have the father.
An optimal family situation includes two loving adults who choose to have children for reasons beyond their own biological yearning and who are financially and emotionally prepared to take on every single hair-pin turn on the road of parenting.
Amy, on a regular basis, speaks against irresponsible parents who act in ways that are extremely sub optimal. This could mean buying a house on an adjustable rate mortgage when you're already in debt and don't have a steady job - then crying foul on Everyone Else when the bank comes knocking b/c the mortgage is in default. It includes parents who abuse substances. And parents who split up b/c "they deserve to be happy too." Yes, parents deserve happiness. But you owe it to your kids to give the marriage 1,000% before calling it quits because creating a stable, loving home life is the #1 priority when you decide to reproduce. It's possible to create a happy home even if you aren't "in love" w/ someone. You figure it out. That's what it's all about.
Tarika, no matter how you slice and dice it, was a terrible mother. You don't continue having children when you so clearly don't have the ability to provide the first with a stable home environment. White people can do this. Black people can do this. People in Africa, the U.S, Canada, and Mexico.
As humans we're all susceptible to making shitty decisions and having shitty judgment. Those w/ particularly bad judgment and decision making skills should NOT reproduce. It fucks. Kids. Up.
Not mentioning the police is a choice made by Amy most likely to highlight this particular issue of bad child rearing. She likes this topic and so do most of the readers here. It's a good one. An interesting one. And one more people should think about before they have sex.
Not mentioning the police doesn't preclude the idea that Amy (probably, can't speak for her) disagrees with their actions and finds Rambo-like officers to be deplorable types to have a weapon and chance to use it. That the cop is wrong and she doesn't make that the headline or highlight of the blog item doesn't mean shit.
Posted by: Gretchen at August 13, 2008 7:59 AM
Amy Alkon,
I'll give you credit, you engage your commenters regardless of whether they agree with and support you or not. And you do so vigorously.
I have blogged before about my problem with the drug laws, and my problem with these drug raids. I think it's irresponsible of the police to go into a home with six children present with drawn guns to go after some piece of drug scum. But that's not what that post was about. I don't blog about every single issue in every single post. This one was about the way this woman's values contributed to her death and probably a terrible future for these kids.
Only that the original offending post started with the question "Who Places A Lower Value On Black Lives?"
Don't you think the circumstances surrounding Tarika Wilson's death are relevant to that question? Or is Tarika Wilson's death only a springboard for you to launch into a lecture about what the only correct structure for a family could be?
As to my searching for racism where there is none:
You now have two posts on the subject - and have yet to address the issue that a cop discharged his weapon blindly into a room with a woman and her six children. You have yet to mention that young Sincere Wilson was injured. You have yet to describe Lima, Ohio at all let alone any of the communities there, black or not. And yet you still feel justified in calling for them to ostracize her, to disrespect the victim.
Yeah lady, I'm the one with the axe to grind.
Come on. I'm asking you put up a post with the views you have already announced before - just tied to this incident - where it is certainly relevant. Oh wait - that would impact your ability to look down on the dead mother.
Posted by: not even an mba at August 13, 2008 8:12 AM
"Oh wait - that would impact your ability to look down on the dead mother." No her doing so would be submitting to some race bating idiot. I'd be very disappointed if she did that.
Posted by: vlad at August 13, 2008 8:17 AM
Rinse and repeat, from my comment above:
I have blogged before about my problem with the drug laws, and my problem with these drug raids. I think it's irresponsible of the police to go into a home with six children present with drawn guns to go after some piece of drug scum. But that's not what that post was about. I don't blog about every single issue in every single post. This one was about the way this woman's values contributed to her death and probably a terrible future for these kids.I do think it's terrible she died, and I've said so. I've additionally said I don't believe it's every right to take a life, even of the worst scum: child-molesting rapist murderer. (ie, I don't believe in capital punishment.)
Posted by: Amy Alkon at August 13, 2008 8:19 AM
Here's my value judgment: I think momof3 should spend more time parenting and less time commenting. It's not that I agree or disagree with her numerous posts on this blog, it's just that she seems to spend a LOT of time in front of a computer for someone with little children at home. In my experience, having a mom who is not "present" and engaged in the day to day stuff is almost as bad as having no mom at all.
Posted by: RS at August 13, 2008 8:21 AM
You want a rinse and repeat?
Only that the original offending post started with the question "Who Places A Lower Value On Black Lives?" Don't you think the circumstances surrounding Tarika Wilson's death are relevant to that question? Or is Tarika Wilson's death only a springboard for you to launch into a lecture about what the only correct structure for a family could be?
Posted by: not even an mba at August 13, 2008 8:25 AM
Or is Tarika Wilson's death only a springboard for you to launch into a lecture about what the only correct structure for a family could be?
Yes.
Posted by: Amy Alkon at August 13, 2008 8:28 AM
You came to my blog and screamed about me calling you a "racist"...which I didn't. I just said you were talking ugly. Particularly, about someone who you don't know the whole story about, who is dead and cannot defend herself.
Pointing out the fact that you talk ugly about everyone is rather like putting lipstick on a pig.
You said:
"I use "litter" to describe the children of Catholic women and rich women and Muslim women in other blog posts here. It's about the number of the children not the race, religion, or socioeconomic background of the women."
The record stands corrected: You are a MISANTHROPIST.
Happy?
Posted by: Teresa at August 13, 2008 8:28 AM
Amy, making a comment based in fact can be construed in any way, if someone doesn't want to hear it. What happened to this woman was terrible. We cannot diminish that. There are 6 children who will be growing up without their mother. It does not change the fact that she had 6 kids by 5 different men. I mean, it happens once; you can say "These things happen." 6 times is a habit. This poor girl was pregnant for most of her adult life. Where was someone to tell her that you don't have to get pregnant by every man you sleep with? A mother? A grandmother? A friend? Hell, a SOCIAL WORKER?
Posted by: Deion at August 13, 2008 8:28 AM
The "only" stuff is bullshit, of course.
There are a lot of good structures for raising children.
A couple of primary things: Not having more children than you can care for, not having children without daddies, not having the children live in a dangerous environment, etc., etc., etc.
Posted by: Amy Alkon at August 13, 2008 8:30 AM
You came to my blog and screamed about me calling you a "racist"...which I didn't.
The truth is, you have about three comments on your blog and I didn't feel like commenting in an original way, so I just copied some stuff I wrote on my blog somewhere and threw it up there. I find you a lightweight as a thinker, and not worth my time.
You further write above: "The record stands corrected: You are a MISANTHROPIST."
I'm somebody with values, and who feels strongly that children should have daddies and all the rest I've said over and over and over again above.
Posted by: Amy Alkon at August 13, 2008 8:32 AM
Amy,
you would have made such a good mom.
Posted by: Rusty Wilson at August 13, 2008 8:39 AM
Gretchen,
Thanks for engaging me so civilly, especially considering how disruptive my presence probably is.
There's a lot of different arguments you've brought up. I don't think an unhappy marriage can provide a better environment for raising kids than a well balanced divorced couple could - but I can see and understand the argument.
But to the issue:
An optimal family situation includes two loving adults who choose to have children for reasons beyond their own biological yearning and who are financially and emotionally prepared to take on every single hair-pin turn on the road of parenting.
Who decides what constitues "financially and emotionally prepared"? I've met a lot of good parents who claim that no one is ever truly emotionally prepared to be a parent - I suspect that that's one point I'll get some agreement on here. Should it depend on the environment? Does a couple in Manhattan have a higher requirement financially than say, a couple in Lima, Ohio?
The household average income in Lima is about two-thirds what it is in the rest of Ohio. Does that affect what we might consider a viable home for children - or is it a flat fee? Should people in poor regions of the country never have any kids?
I totally agree that the greatest resource a kid can have growing up is loving and responsible parents. By the standards of the community where Tarika Wilson lived, well I don't know enough about either Tarika or the community where she lived - but I don't think it's imposssible that her kids were better off than most of the neighbors.
Posted by: not even an mba at August 13, 2008 8:42 AM
Here's a little thought experiment for Mr. NEAM.
Would you be so vociferously attacking the police if the deceased had been white.
Do you, in fact, believe that the only reason the cop blindly shot up the house was because the occupants were black?
Unless you believe that the reason for Tarika's death was solely her race, then the cop isn't really relevant then, is he?
And if you do believe that, then your problem isn't with Amy, it's with the Lima PD. I would suggest your energy would be better expended there than trying to get someone who is not a racist to just admit to being one.
Because I can't see Room 101 from here.
Posted by: brian at August 13, 2008 8:43 AM
"The record stands corrected: You are a MISANTHROPIST." Yes I hate stupid people, don't be willfully stupid and i won't hate you.
Here a though maybe if someone had given her the same unkind words that Amy used she'd still be alive. Maybe if her friends, relatives, etc. actually grew some stones put her feelings aside and said "Your fucking your life and the lives of you children. Put the crack passer dick down." She might have gotten her head out of her ass and gotten her shit together. Instead the praised her for being a good mother.
Posted by: vlad at August 13, 2008 8:45 AM
mba - [...] a cop discharged his weapon blindly into a room with a woman and her six children. You have yet to mention that young Sincere Wilson was injured. You have yet to describe Lima, Ohio at all let alone any of the communities there, black or not. And yet you still feel justified in calling for them to ostracize her, to disrespect the victim.
This is exactly the sort of thing that you can expect to happen if you choose to live the kind of life that Wilson did. It's not fair, it's not good, it's due to all sorts of complicated social issues ... but it's a fact. Did Wilson have any choice in the matter? Yes, some. Did she choose wisely? No. Who pays for her mistake? She and her children do.
Posted by: Norman at August 13, 2008 8:50 AM
Who decides what constitues "financially and emotionally prepared"?
I do. Here it is, just for starters: Not being an unmarried teen mother who fucks numerous disappearing drug dealers without birth control, and then jeopardizes her kids' lives by taking up with yet another drug dealer.
And vlad is exactly right with this below, which was a major point of my post:
"Here a though maybe if someone had given her the same unkind words that Amy used she'd still be alive. Maybe if her friends, relatives, etc. actually grew some stones put her feelings aside and said "Your fucking your life and the lives of you children. Put the crack passer dick down." She might have gotten her head out of her ass and gotten her shit together. "
Posted by: Amy Alkon at August 13, 2008 8:53 AM
Would you be so vociferously attacking the police if the deceased had been white.
You probably won't believe me but yes. I absolutely would be offended and vociferous if a no-knock raid ended up with a dead white woman and injured white baby and a getting off scot-free cop (of any race) and then the issue was used by someone to cast aspersions on the dead woman. Most definitely yes.
Do you, in fact, believe that the only reason the cop blindly shot up the house was because the occupants were black?
No. I believe the only reason the cop blindly shot up the house is because he knows he can - since the police are above the law.
Unless you believe that the reason for Tarika's death was solely her race, then the cop isn't really relevant then, is he?
I don't see how this follows. I think you're full of shit. Look, if you want to argue with the "brian's fevered image of not even an mba" you should probably do so in a way that doesn't prompt me to respond.
And if you do believe that, then your problem isn't with Amy, it's with the Lima PD. I would suggest your energy would be better expended there than trying to get someone who is not a racist to just admit to being one.
I think I've hashed out my problem with Amy Alkon. Righteous Bubba nailed it with his second comment in the previous thread:
Really, go back, reread, and see if you can figure out who puts the lowest value on black lives between the cop, the mom who was shot holding her child and you, using it all as grist for a sensationalist mill.
So she's on a crusade, and dead mothers only count for pithy afterwords, the important thing is to make sure only wealthy, married couples can reproduce. Fine - that's not racist, but it's pretty damn ugly.
Posted by: not even an mba at August 13, 2008 9:02 AM
Not even:
I definitely agree there are grey, subjective areas as far as what constitutes "financially and emotionally stable enough."
To answer your question - yes, a parent in NYC DOES have a higher financial requirement. Mainly because the cost of living is higher. So, if you earn $20k in NYC it won't go as far as $20k in Ohio. That said, most jobs do take that into account. I would probably earn more doing what I do in NYC than here in Boston. Likewise, I'd probably be paid less in Atlanta.
What is objective, however, are children's requirements. An iPod is not a requirement. Three square meals, plus a few snacks and good boots/coat/gloves etc. during a snow storm are requirements.
Being on welfare, by its very nature, means you aren't able to provide these things on your own. I'm not saying Ms. Wilson was on welfare I'm simply outlining my thoughts on what makes a person more ready than another to be a parent.
I won't argue that people are never prepared, emotionally, to be parents as it is unfathomably more exhausting and difficult than anyone could imagine (no kids, here but I can try and understand).
Now, that said, I have to say a person without enough foresight and personal introspection to conclude that continuing to carry children to term and keep them, knowing full well the fathers are incompetent losers, is emotionally stunted. To put it VERY nicely.
So while there is clear subjectivity on these things there are also extreme cases which can most definitely be judged objectively.
And also - about kids being happier w/ two happy divorced parents: I agree to a point. But I think people tend to take marriage and divorce too lightly these days. I absolutely agree w/ Amy (and Criddo, where are you anyway?) that people need to be smarter about picking their partners, ESPECIALLY when an objective of the relationship is having and raising children. Some marriages are toxic. Others just lost the spark. There are ways to salvage an ember in those specific marriages and make a pretty damned good home as loving companions with a higher purpose of raising excellent kids.
I just think people get idealize and romanticize marriage and when it isn't everything they dream it will be they call it quits. That doesn't benefit anyone. A little therapy and a LOT of effort can make a big enough difference to keep things GREAT - and that is a good place to raise kids.
As far as Tarika's kids: it kills me inside that there are kids being raised in such unstable, sad neighborhoods. Saying they were better of in their situation than in some other place is comparing "really, really bad" to "absolute worst."
It's like having your leg eaten off by a shark and then someone saying "well at least he didn't get your arm, too!" Like, no shit, Sherlock. Nice observation. Now get the hell out of my hospital room!
Posted by: Gretchen at August 13, 2008 9:04 AM
Ok, NEAM, by your own admission, the cop didn't care one way or the other for the blackness of the person he shot.
Therefore, he wasn't making a judgment at all of the value of a black person's life.
The woman, however, DID make a judgment on the value of her own life. She concluded that her life was worth risking to be with Man #6.
From where I sit, that tells me that she places a lower value on "Black life" (her own) than does the cop (who just shot with no concern for life at all, regardless of the color of that life).
And anything "righteous bubba" has to say is irrelevant to me. He's a marginal thinker at best, who seems to know only how to repeat the same meaningless untruth over and over again in the hopes that people will simply agree with him to shut him up.
You have promise, but your arguments are internally inconsistent.
Posted by: brian at August 13, 2008 9:07 AM
the important thing is to make sure only wealthy, married couples can reproduce.
I didn't get a DOG until I was in my late 30s, because I wanted to be sure I had the money and lifestyle where I could take care of any possible medical problem and not just leave her home alone five days a week. This is a good thing. Should you wait until you have the financial and emotional wherewithall before you have children? Absofuckinglutely.
In other words, yes, I think people should be as careful and prudent in having children as I am in having A PET.
I am stunned that black leaders don't speak out against women who do as Wilson did, and then pop up to speak out against cops -- cops who lay their lives on the line to protect them. Sure, there are bad apples in the police force, as there are in all lines of work. This seems to have been an accident brought on both by stupid policy and by the way this woman lived her life, the terrible "choices" she made.
I suspect the reason you don't see black leaders speaking out is that they'd lose their standing (and income) from the black community. I speak out at my peril against Islamism, especially, because I think it's the right thing to do. A pity we don't see many black leaders following my lead about problems in their own community. And they're not going to end up dead for doing it, but they might need to get a second job.
Posted by: Amy Alkon at August 13, 2008 9:09 AM
Therefore, he wasn't making a judgment at all of the value of a black person's life.
Yes he was, and he set that value at low - as well as the value for all the children in the room with Tarika. You want to argue that the cop isn't racist? Maybe he is and maybe he isn't - maybe knowing that the house was that of a black family cemented in his mind the knowledge that he'd get away with it. I don't know - so in this case I'll assume that he is not racist. Doesn't change the fact that, based on his actions, he clearly placed a ridiculously low value on the lives of the people in the room he fired on.
You have promise, but your arguments are internally inconsistent.
I have promise? Why thank you Master brian, does that make me your padawan? Gimme a break brian, the only thing that's internally inconsistent is your morality.
Posted by: not even an mba at August 13, 2008 9:15 AM
So she's on a crusade, and dead mothers only count for pithy afterwords, the important thing is to make sure only wealthy, married couples can reproduce. Fine - that's not racist, but it's pretty damn ugly.
Way to miss the point. Amy thinks people who actually WANT and can AFFORD to have children should have them, not poor misguided girls who spread their legs for any old drug dealer on the corner and have 6 kids within an 8 year span without any viable means of support, you miserable excuse for a mewling sycophant (oooo Gretchen, "Thanks for engaging me so civilly, especially considering how disruptive my presence probably is."). If you're aware of how "distruptive" you are, how about you just stop with your insipid sniping about the asshole cop angle on this and tell us all what you're really afraid of - that in this instance, you're not going to get the majority of us to agree with you.
Posted by: Flynne at August 13, 2008 9:17 AM
I'm not saying the cop isn't a racist, I don't know the man. What I'm saying is his racism, or lack thereof, is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.
Given that we've seem SWAT teams engage in the same exact behavior regardless of the age, class, or race of the persons raided, then your argument that we ought to be focusing on the cop is moot.
Amy chose to look at the other side of the coin - which is "why was this woman in a position where she was likely to be raided".
You came back with "everyone is in a position where they are likely to be raided", and attempted to change the subject. You did so in an effort to "prove" that Amy is a racist for using language you do not approve of to describe a reckless and selfish woman who just happens to have darker skin than Amy does.
My morality is internally consistent. I do not support government-sanctioned killing except in national defense. But I also don't shed a tear for those who die while partaking of high-risk activity. This applies equally to bungee jumpers and Tarika Wilson.
Posted by: brian at August 13, 2008 9:21 AM
I didn't get a DOG until I was in my late 30s, because I wanted to be sure I had the money and lifestyle...
Please, Amy:) Not the dog speech! Not now...
Posted by: Jody Tresidder at August 13, 2008 9:21 AM
Given that we've seem SWAT teams engage in the same exact behavior regardless of the age, class, or race of the persons raided, then your argument that we ought to be focusing on the cop is moot.
Exactly, brian.
Posted by: Amy Alkon at August 13, 2008 9:26 AM
Given that we've seem SWAT teams engage in the same exact behavior regardless of the age, class, or race of the persons raided, then your argument that we ought to be focusing on the cop is moot.
WTF?!?!
1. Lima, Ohio has a race problem. There are longstanding issues between the police force and the black community in the city. Between the polarized sections of the city. This is not a simple case, much like how most stories about race are.
2. You want this not to be about race or what?
3. Regardless - the answer to the question is still the cop places a lower value on black lives. In fact, that cop places a lower value on the lives of anyone that doesn't have a badge as compared to almost anyone else in the story (it's certainly believable that Anthony Terry saw human life, regardless of race, as worthless)
And yet you're saying the story should be "OMG check out the baby factory - what a worthless person she was!"
Eyes on the prize there - no babies until you're ready is the number one rule.
Posted by: not even an mba at August 13, 2008 9:38 AM
NEAM,
I'm going to have to agree with this point brian made, "I also don't shed a tear for those who die while partaking of high-risk activity. This applies equally to bungee jumpers and Tarika Wilson."
What you are saying is that because this woman was black and came from one of the poorer areas of Ohio, we should excuse the circumstances that she placed herself and her children in.
What the other commenters are saying is that Tarika Wilson made the choice to be there with her kids. Their lives were in danger in that place. Whether it be from cops, or a rival drug crew. Any person who makes such a choice shouldn't be martyred for making it. Their choices should be scrutinized.
Amy is simply analyzing the choices she'd made in her life that got her to that point and saying that someone should discourage that type of behavior, preferably someone to whom our community listens to. It needed to be said. What happened to her was an unfortunate consequence of her own actions and blaming the police officer and his gun aren't going to get us anywhere.
Please take off those blinders for a minute and give all credit where it's due.
Posted by: Deion at August 13, 2008 9:40 AM
Deion - Thanks. But I suspect our friend has been blinded by spending too much time with the arch-libertarians at Reason, and is unable to see anything but OMG! COPZ!
If Tarika Wilson had died in a drive-by from a rival crew, and Amy had written the same exact story, NEAM would not have shown up, because the blackness of the victim is ancillary to HIS story - which is Cops Bad.
And whatever your feelings on the "no knock" methodology, the part about this story that seems to attract the emotional attention is the presence of children in the house.
Amy was more interested in how those children came to be in the line of fire than she was in where the line came from.
And for this, according to some, she is a racist.
Posted by: brian at August 13, 2008 9:47 AM
What we NEED in this world mr not even an mba, is MORE harsh judgement.
What we DON'T need, is more mushy feel good pap masquarading as enlightenment & tolerance. A bad choice, a destructive choice, a selfish choice, those remain exactly what they are no matter how you dress it up.
I note that you add "Despite the fact that almost all racists deny the charge." Um, wouldn't a NONracist deny the charge as much so as an actual racist? How does one come through that circular logic of yours?
Now this senseless crap: "fires blindly into a dark room"
Here's a word I'm sure you're familiar with. "DUH!" It is a dark room, you're raiding a residence of a drug dealer. Are you telling me that drug dealers are such upstanding citizens that they would never kill to protect their trade, their stock, or their undeserved liberty, and that they would never use children as cover? Suffice it to say, it is a DARK room, and a bullet travels OUT of a dark room just as well as it does IN to it, the officer has a right to protect himself, and in a raid like that, there is a very real posibility of death.
How exactly could they change the procedure here to protect themselves in such hazardous conditions? I've gone through my fair share of training in securing a buildings and rooms, and I'll tell you this, you can do everything right in broad daylight, and still get killed in the chaos of an enclosed space.
None of those officers set out that day with the mindset, "I can't wait to shoot into the dark and hurt some kids and shoot their mother." They set out to take down a drug dealer, and hoped to come home at the end of the day, a dark room is a death trap, you get only a single heartbeat to decide, shoot or don't shoot, and you might die no matter what you do.
YES this was a tragedy, but it all would have been avoided, and that dealer gone down alone, if that stupid incompetent mother had decided to date an honest grocer instead of having dealer after dealer move in with her and her children.
SHE put herself and her kids at risk when she moved in with the bastard. The bastard put them all at risk when he decided he'd sooner keep slinging rock on the corner than get a real job. You can't blame the officers for doing their best to come home at the end of the day.
Yes by the way not even an mba, I do realize that, but therein lies my point, his family saw to him, they didn't take up with dealers and pop out kid after kid by other dealers, they busted their butts and did something productive, and Obama clearly learned from that example.
Kids in the circumstance that Tarkia Wilson PUT them in, don't generally do that.
I don't know if they're better off without her or not, its not enough that someone be "mother" they need to be a GOOD mother.
Now you tell me, what kind of things were those kids going to learn growing up with her sterling example (add as much sarcasm as you can at the end there)
I'm not saying its not a tragic death, but if the kids wind up living with somebody RESPONSIBLE, that doesn't put them in relationships with the daily possibility of drug raids, then yes, I'd say they'd be better off.
Posted by: Robert at August 13, 2008 9:47 AM
If a black woman got hit by a train when she's walking on the tracks, do the white train driver is a racist?
There's a panacea for the Black Americans out-there; if they are in trouble for any reason, they can claim racism. Regardless if the Black inmate population received a fair trial before landing in Jail, regardless of all the Affirmative-Action (I.E. institutionalized racism) they are enjoying and regardless of all the contraceptive solutions in the world, the "Race Card" is still strong and alive.
It is just like novocaine, it numbs them. At that moment, regardless of the effort put in any enterprise, if it fails, they are blameless. The whole "Race Card" covers all the sins. Who needs judgment when you can safely shift the blame to whitey?
Tarika Wilson was walking on train tracks for a long time. She had six children in eight years with six different petty criminals and she was living with one. This attitude is senseless and stupid. If she was white, the sticker "White-Trash" would had been stamped on her without much thinking but since she's black we can't even use the term "Litter"?
We need to wake-up. Tarika Wilson was just a dumb woman who din't realized that she was walking on railroad tracks. The train caught with her.
Posted by: Toubrouk at August 13, 2008 9:55 AM
I note that you add "Despite the fact that almost all racists deny the charge." Um, wouldn't a NONracist deny the charge as much so as an actual racist? How does one come through that circular logic of yours?
This is what I love -- people who think.
Posted by: Amy Alkon at August 13, 2008 9:59 AM
MEAM, the issue really is child endangermentwhen it comes to ahving a drug dealer for a boyfriend. If the norms of the cmmunity find that acceptable, then the whole community is screwedup, the whole culture of that community.
The situation is exactly analogous to parents who cook meth in their homes with small children around. Washington State finally began to make a dent in that when they started removing children from homes. And oh by the way, the parents who lost their children were overwhelmingly white and rural.
You may very well be unaware of this because you live on the other side of the country, and also frankly because there is not a network of community leaders denouncing the government for this policy, and also because the problems of white rural people get less press than about anything else in this country. I gather from your comments you would have to think carefully as to whether or not to call these parents unfit.
Posted by: Jim at August 13, 2008 10:00 AM
Brian, for you to refer to anyone as a marginal thinker is certainly the pot calling the kettle black, if I may be permitted a small bon mot.
Incidentally, Righteous Bubba is probably the sharpest blade on the entire innert00bz at the neat pink by rejoinder. The fact that you aren't equipped to recognize that is certainly not surprising, since the misAdvice Ungoddess you so clearly worship has herself minimal grammar and vocabulary skills.
Speaking of English comprehension and cognitive ability, I certainly hope ol' ma of 3 isn't homeschooling. And why does she have three kids? (Oops, excuse me: Three kids!!???!!!!!!!!-Is that enough punctuation to enable you to understand the emphasis?) Didn't you know what was causing alla them thar rug rats to be birthed? Amy will be around to your house to give you a stern talking to about that litter of yours any moment now, I'm sure.
Ms. Alkon, you may not be racist. I personally think you're an equal opportunity hater. I think you had some bad experiences as a child and are trying to get revenge on the people who hurt you(Catholics, maybe? You sure seem to have a hate-on for Catholics.) That's too bad, and I'm sorry for you that you had those experiences in life, but you shouldn't let your bad start in the world and the extreme unpopularity you experienced as a teen stop you from making your very best effort to develop the skills you need to become a happy, fully functioning human being: Empathy, compassion, and decency. That you would use the tragic death of a young mother to promote your indecent views about an entire community indicates that you haven't developed those skills.
By the by, the charity work you cite in the previous column doesn't mean shit if your motives are to throw your influence about and act as some kind of awful Lady Bountiful. The fact that you mention it as a means of discrediting those who point out the cruelty of your previous post is a fair indication that you're not doing the charity work out of the goodness of your heart, but to influence your somewhat limited acolytes' perception of you as a "good person" and to provide cover for your hate site.
One last thing: The fact that brian thinks NEAMBA is coming from a Libertarian site is hilarious. When did Libertarians develop compassion and a sense of social justice for people who can't get ahead in life? I must have missed that transformation. If such a transformation has indeed taken place, it is surely to their credit.
I'm done. This is all too depressing. Eventually one needs to avert one's eyes from the bloody wreckage strewn on the interstate.
Posted by: Candy at August 13, 2008 10:10 AM
brian,
you said:
If Tarika Wilson had died in a drive-by from a rival crew, and Amy had written the same exact story, NEAM would not have shown up, because the blackness of the victim is ancillary to HIS story - which is Cops Bad.
Sure, and if I had an mba, I'd have to change my handle.
You probably know Amy Alkon a whole lot better than I do, but I seriously don't see her claiming that guys doing a drive-by shooting placing a higher value on black (or white) life than whoever got shot. Even in order to support her crusade against bad parenting.
But go on pretending that I'm the one with shitty arguments.
Posted by: not even an mba at August 13, 2008 10:14 AM
I note that you add "Despite the fact that almost all racists deny the charge." Um, wouldn't a NONracist deny the charge as much so as an actual racist? How does one come through that circular logic of yours?
Um, yes a NON racist would deny the charge as well. But try and (for you Amy) think it through:
Accusatron 9000: You are a racist.
Racist: No I'm not.
Malfunctioning Accusatron 9000: You are a racist.
NONRacist: No I'm not.
So, when I add my statement, I'm just letting Amy Alkon know that her denial is worthless without anything backing it up.
Posted by: not even an mba at August 13, 2008 10:18 AM
"When did Libertarians develop compassion and a sense of social justice for people who can't get ahead in life? " So your though would be that those of us who climbed out of a hole by ourselves should financially and morally support those assholes that see being poor and fulfilled as their right? If you can't get ahead in life take a look in the mirror.
Compassion has it's limits and empathy doesn't apply. You can empathies with someone who is trying. She stopped trying after kid 3 or 4.
Posted by: vlad at August 13, 2008 10:20 AM
*By the by, the charity work you cite in the previous column doesn't mean shit if your motives are to throw your influence about and act as some kind of awful Lady Bountiful.*
And you got to this decision about Amy's classroom work by canvassing the kids she's helping? Because that's whose opinion counts.
Frankly I don't care if she's doing it to be on the cover of Paleface Interloper Magazine, if she's helping, she's helping.
Posted by: Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at August 13, 2008 10:23 AM
So, in addition to not being an MBA, you're also admitting to being a malfunctioning Accusatron 9000.
That would explain a great many things.
Candy - I get a migraine trying to think down to your level.
Posted by: brian at August 13, 2008 10:25 AM
Amy trying to defend herself from charges of racism is like me trying to prove that I'm not a Cylon. Nothing will be good enough for people who see racism everywhere.
Posted by: MonicaP at August 13, 2008 10:27 AM
Ms. Alkon, you may not be racist. I personally think you're an equal opportunity hater. I think you had some bad experiences as a child and are trying to get revenge on the people who hurt you(Catholics, maybe? You sure seem to have a hate-on for Catholics.)
Really? Tell that to my Catholic boyfriend, who graduated from Bishop Gallagher high school, and attended Our Lady Queen of Peace in Detroit until he went to school.
Do I also have a hate-on for rich white women? Because I used the litter term for them, too, when they squeeze out, well, litters of children.
Clearly, what I don't like is people who have children they cannot possibly devote adequate financial and emotional resources to.
I actually don't think about the kids who were awful to me, but I see their hatred of me and their treatment of me as a product of the nonthink promoted by religion. I encourage people to think rationally, and I rail against all god-centered religions: Judaism, Christianity, and especially, the death cult known as Islam.
Am I "cruel" in respect to the way I decry single mothers who fuck multiple drug creeps without condoms and extrude a passel of daddyless children? I sure hope so. And as somebody above said, maybe if her mother passed on similar cruel talk about this, she'd be alive today and thinking about moving up in her career and maybe meeting a nice man with a legal job and dating him and learning about his character, and then marrying him and having two children.
Two children: my architect/USC prof neighbor and his architect-turned-stay-at-home mom wife who does design jobs here and there from home struggle to support that many. They don't go to restaurants -- haven't in years -- and drink $3 wine, and rarely buy clothes for the parents...everything goes toward their kids. This is the right thing to do.
What if a kid needs to go to the dentist? What if six of them need to go? And by the way, kids need to go to the dentist for preventive care, and to learn to value their teeth. If you're a single, 26-year-old mother, knocked up by various disappeared drug dealers, how do you pay to send your kids to the dentist? Do you just let their teeth rot? Of course, there's always asking your current drug dealer boyfriend to do some big deal for you, maybe set up a bunch of little dealers to sell smack outside the elementary school. Not saying that happened -- just a just suppose.
But if you have a drug dealer in your life...what kind of example are you exposing your children to? And how can you, as a single mother with six children and no daddies, possibly teach those kids values and morality? Especially when your values and morality are so clearly lacking already.
My mother told me it was best not to have premarital sex -- and went into detail about why she thought this. Premarital families? Of six? Hello? Anybody home out there.
I happen to be a libertarian. I call myself a personal responsibilitarian. Personal and community responsibility are what I'm calling for here. Yeah, how terrible, how cruel, how disgusting of me.
A note to my regular commenters: Should I ever go soft in this department, please kick me back to terrible, cruel, etc.</