Touching.

Suicide killing seems to be the only contribution of Islam to world wide culture. Since extermination is out of fashion, we need to start building some serious walls between us and them.

"They too had grievances - but did you ever see children of survivors blowing up hospitals, hotels, schools, and restaurants?" The war that liberated Israel, which is why all this killing keeps going. Neither side is really innocent and there are innocents on both sides.

I think we should make it public policy that any one killed performing an act of terror will be sealed in a vat of pig tallow and buried in a concrete block.

"The Israelis do not glory at killing Arabs, " No argument there, not what I said. I was challenging the assertion that all the children of survivors did not commit terrorist acts against Arabs. "Neither side is really innocent and there are innocents on both sides."

Vlad - you have made two significant errors in your thinking.

1) The Israelis have not engaged in terrorist attacks against Arabs. They have engaged in military attacks against military installations. That civilians were put in harms way by Fatah and Hamas says nothing about Israel.

2) There is no such thing as an innocent Palestinian. Each and every one of them is indoctrinated from birth with Judenhassen. The greatest goal of every Palestinian male is to die while blowing up Jews. There are no innocents there.

Finally, Israel came to be in the wake of WWII, in which a people (in this case, European Jewry) were systematically gathered together for the purpose of being eliminated. The United Nations took some land which was captured from the losing side in that war (which conveniently happened to be the historical location of Israel) and created a state out of whole cloth. That state has been under a constant siege from the "Middle East" ever since.

Please explain to me how Israel bears any of the blame for the situation.

"The Israelis have not engaged in terrorist attacks against Arabs." Yes that is correct after the state of Israel had been formed and recognized. I was talking about the time before it was formed, British-Zionist conflict where terrorism was used.

"The greatest goal of every Palestinian male is to die while blowing up Jews." Then why are there any Palestinian males left. No there maybe slants towards to anti Semitic but all or even most Palestinian males do not blow themselves up.

Vlad, every American aspires to wealth and luxury. Not all of them attain it, or even work toward it.

Likewise, every Palestinian male aspires to martyrdom. Not all of them attain it, or even try to. But they all say that it is the greatest honor to be chosen to become shaheed.

And trying to compare the pre-Israel attacks to the Palestinians is a joke. That conflict was, at most, the same as the IRA, and for the same reasons.

"And trying to compare the pre-Israel attacks to the Palestinians is a joke." I wasn't. The author said the survivors and their children never committed acts of violence by "but did you ever see children of survivors blowing up hospitals, hotels, schools, and restaurants?" The IRA and the Palestinians are exactly the same. Freedom from (insert here) through the brutal killing of civilians. How are they different?

"Likewise, every Palestinian male aspires to martyrdom." based on what. That they all hate Israel I'll even buy but where are you getting that they all want martyrdom? It's a lot easier to blow yourself up than make millions. If they all wanted to do it they would.

I think I will talk about myself here.

I am a French-Canadian. I am the direct descendant of the French colonists of the "Nouvelle-France" colony that used to exist four centuries ago in North America. In 1762, the colony was invaded by British troops and then sold to the Empire by the French Crown so they can keep some island in the caribbean. So, our cause seems to fit the Palestinian's plight; invaded by an enemy who don't speak our language, don't have our religion and see us as potential traitors.

Now, let's look at what the province of Quebec offered to the world; medical breakthrough in pharmaceutical products, airplanes, video games, thinkers and artists. Montreal is not looking like downtown Gaza. Why? Because, on the way to modernity, we have let our grief and our religious ideas behind.

As long as the Palestinians will latch themselves on a religion preaching ignorance, sacrifice and hate, they will stay in their mediocrity. This is their choice as a nation.

Does anyone think, though, that Islamic preoccupation with killing Jews would actually stop if there was no Israel? If every single Jewish person in the middle east moved to, say, West Texas, wouldn’t the Muslim fundies still rant about the “evil” Jews and teach their children that the Jews are the enemy?

I think Toubrouk’s last line sums it up pretty well

May the Rabbi and his wife rest in peace and prayers for their little one left behind (there is a trust fund set up for their two year old, Moshe).

Great article on Totalitarian Islam and Multiculturalist Apologists by Caroline Glick in the Jerusalem Post.

Our World: The jihadist-multicultural alliance

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1227702394020&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

"I think Toubrouk’s last line sums it up pretty well" Yup, dead on.

he IRA and the Palestinians are exactly the same. Freedom from (insert here) through the brutal killing of civilians. How are they different?

Bullshit. Considering that prior to 1948 there was no such thing as a Palestinian, there isn't anything for them to be fighting for freedom from. Unless "freedom from autonomy" is a valid fight. You might want to spend some time brushing up on your 1940s history before you ham another foot in your mouth.

Oh, and for the record, while the IRA DID sometimes target civilians, killing civilians was not their primary goal. The Palestinians don't want self determination. They don't want piece with Israel. They don't even want a piece OF Israel. They want the Jews pushed into the sea.

I repeat - there is no such thing as an innocent Palestinian.

It's actually pretty simple. If the Palestinians lay down their arms, then peace will ensue. If Israel lays down its arms ... well ... enough said.

"They want the Jews pushed into the sea." And the IRA want to push the Brits into the sea. They don't want to share the land with England the want them out.

"Considering that prior to 1948 there was no such thing as a Palestinian" British Mandate of Palestine. The term has been used since roman times to refer to the region between the Med sea and Jordan River. No the area was referred to as Palestine long before 1948. The Republic of Ireland was declared in 1949.

As far as targeting civies. Yeah they are not as a general rule the primary targets of the IRA. Yeah there you got me that's fair point.

No, Vlad. The IRA want the British to leave. The Palestinians want the Jews to DIE.

Don't you think there's more than a semantic difference here? I mean "leave or we'll kill you" is different from "die or we'll kill you" in that in the second case you're fucking dead either way.

And the area was called "Palestine". The people who lived there did not call themselves Palestinians. They were Arabs, Jordanians, Druze, any of a hundred different names. None of which were "Palestinian".

All of these "refugee" camps are unnecessary. All that is needed is for their Arab brothers to take them in to their nations as citizens. But Jordan, Syria, Libya, etc. don't want that. The "Palestinians" are more politically useful to the pan-Arabic (and larger Islamic) goal of getting rid of the Jews if they are kept living in festering filth.

"The "Palestinians" are more politically useful to the pan-Arabic (and larger Islamic) goal of getting rid of the Jews if they are kept living in festering filth." In complete agreement. The problem is mainly from this and it is being intentional kept alive. IRA sympathizers can just as easily move out of Northern Ireland but choose not to.

"The Palestinians want the Jews to DIE." Here we simply disagree. The hatred the mid east direct towards us stems (in their own words at least) from our support of Israel, not jews but their state. Now the fundies want us all Muslim, slaves or dead is different. If you go on the assumption that all Muslims want us converted or dead regardless of what they say then yes, I just disagree.

Well, for those interested in Israeli history, Charlie Reese summed things up a little over ten years ago:
---------------
Question: Which country in the Middle East has nuclear weapons? Answer: Israel.

Q: Which country in the Middle East refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections? A: Israel.

Q: Which country in the Middle East seized the sovereign territory of other nations by military force and continues to occupy it in defiance of United Nations Security Council resolutions? A: Israel.

Q: Which country in the Middle East routinely violates the international borders of another sovereign state with warplanes and artillery and naval gunfire? A: Israel.

Q: What American ally in the Middle East has for years sent assassins into other countries to kill its political enemies (a practice sometimes called exporting terrorism)? A: Israel.

Q: In which country in the Middle East have high-ranking military officers admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war were executed? A: Israel.

Q: What country in the Middle East refuses to prosecute its soldiers who have acknowledged executing prisoners of war? A: Israel.

Q: What country in the Middle East created 762,000 refugees and refuses to allow them to return to their homes, farms and businesses? A: Israel.

Q: What country in the Middle East refuses to pay compensation to people whose land, bank accounts and businesses it confiscated? A: Israel.

Q: In what country in the Middle East was a high-ranking United Nations diplomat assassinated? A: Israel.

Q: In what country in the Middle East did the man who ordered the assassination of a high-ranking U.N. diplomat become prime minister? A: Israel.

Q: What country in the Middle East blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a U.S. ship in international waters, killing 33 and wounding 177 American sailors? A: Israel.

Q: What country in the Middle East employed a spy, Jonathan Pollard, to steal classified documents and then gave some of them to the Soviet Union? A: Israel.

Q: What country at first denied any official connection to Pollard, then voted to make him a citizen and has continuously demanded that the American president grant Pollard a full pardon? A: Israel.

Q: What country on Planet Earth has the second most powerful lobby in the United States, according to a recent Fortune magazine survey of Washington insiders? A: Israel.

Q: Which country in the Middle East is in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council resolutions and has been protected from 29 more by U.S. vetoes? A: Israel.

Q: What country is the United States threatening to bomb because ``U.N.Security Council resolutions must be obeyed?'' A: Iraq.
-------------

Americans are a generous people, but I have to ask this question again and again, particulary of those who protest "war for oil" in Iraq, non-involvement in Darfur or any other foreign action, real or imagined: How many American lives is another country worth?

Israel is on their own side, not ours.

Rad. Way to be one-sided.

The "Palestinians" are in violation of at least twice as many "Resolutions". They have violated the territorial integrity of Israel continuously since its formation in 1948. They have engaged in terrorist attacks on Israeli soil repeatedly. They have targetted civilians repeatedly. And most of the "resolutions" that Israel is technically in violation of have no recourse built into them. Unlike, say all of the ones against Iraq that threatened force if compliance was not forthcoming.

The additional land that Israel occupies was taken during defensive wars. To the victor go the spoils, and all that. However, They gave back a significant portion of that land. Doing so got them a peace deal with Egypt. They gave land to the Palestinians, and they got an Intifada for their trouble.

I sincerely doubt the Fortune survey. Were Israel as powerful as people wish to believe it was, there would not BE a middle east. You may not like this, but the foreign aid we give to Israel is the only thing that keeps them from flattening the middle east.

As far as the nuclear issue goes, Iran, Iraq, and Syria were or are developing nuclear weapons. All have refused to sign NTBT. North Korea, India, and Pakistan all violated the NTBT, and there were no sanctions or other punishments for said violations. The fact that Israel has not conducted a single nuclear test means that their failure to sign NTBT is immaterial.

Finally, regarding "reparations" - any land that people were displaced from was contingent upon them settling in new areas. I see no reason to hold Israel responsible for their failure to take what the UN offered them. After all, they were on the losing side of WWII. What they want, however, is all of the land in what comprises modern Israel. That's what "right of return" is all about. If they can't get Israel legislated out of existence, and they can't defeat it militarily, they'll do so with bogus and unverifiable claims of historical ownership of land, and force the Jews out demographically.

No matter how many anti-Zionist talking points you come up with, the Palestinians are still the bad guys here. None of this would be happening today if they'd taken their half of trans-Jordan and done with it what the Israelis did with theirs. Instead, within days of the creation of the nation of Israel, the entire middle east declared war on it, and lost.

Fuck them all to death.

As far as targeting civies. Yeah they are not as a general rule the primary targets of the IRA.

You might want to check the facts before you concede the point:

On December 11 1971, the IRA set off a bomb at a furniture store in Belfast, killing 2 and injuring 100.

On July 21, 1972 the IRA set off 22 bombs in Belfast, killing 9 and injuring 130.

On February 4, 1974 the IRA detonated a bomb on a coach on the M62, killing 12 - including 2 children.

On September 5, 1975 an IRA bomb exploded in the lobby of the Hilton Hotel in London, killing 2 and injuring 63.

On August 27, 1979 Louis Mountbatten was assassinated on his boat because the IRA was desparate to kill a royal (the Mountbattens are distantly related to the royal family). Killed alongside Mountbatten were two teenaged boys and an 83-year-old woman. Mountbatten was a decorated World War II hero and the last Viceroy of India before that country gained its independence.

On December 17, 1983, the IRA set off a car bomb at Harrod's department store. Six were killed and 75 were injured.

On November 8, 1987 the IRA killed 11 civilians and injured 63 more in the Remembrance Day bombing in Enniskillen.

The list goes on.... Terrorism is terrorism.

This is a decidedly less articulated response to the tragedy, but another one that is right within step of what I feel: http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=210920&title=mumbai-tragedy

Not like this could get any worse, but turns out, Rivka was 5 months pregnant.

Just wonderfully humane these fucking muslims. tourture and kill a pregnant woman.

Another perspective on the Mumbai attack, from someone who was there:

http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/12/01/mumbai-terror-taj-oped-cx_mp_1201pollack.html

brian,

Once again, two wrongs do not make a right. And the "other" side, of Israel being a fiercely loyal ally of the USA interested only in peace, has already been demonstrated.

Rad,

Just remember that the U.S.S.R. used to support Arabs in their war against Israel since day one. This is the main reason behind the U.S./Israel alliance.

Of course, two wrong don't make a single right. on the other side, when survival is the name of the game, being wrong means being dead. I don't know for you but if you give me the choice between being Ethical or being Alive, the choice is not hard to make.

Corollary: It is better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

Hear, hear!