Wafa Speaks Again
"The status of women is an inevitable outcome of Islamic teachings," says the courageous Wafa Sultan, speaking out about how women are property, and sanctioned abusees under Islam.
"Islam allowed men to marry infants in order to justify Muhammad's marriage to Aisha," she continues, and she's telling the truth. Where are all the human rights organizations, the feminists, protesting against the vile practices of Islam? Where is the United Nations? Oh, right -- too busy protesting about the Israelis defending themselves against the attacks from Gaza.
More about Sultan here. And here's what happens to little girls under Islam. Note that there's no mention of the word behind it, "Islam." From a story in Time by Vivienne Walt:
In a dimly lit corner of a Paris bar a delighted young divorcée describes in a soft voice how she spent the day throwing snowballs for the first time in her life. That is not remarkable. This is: Nujood Ali is just 10 years old -- and was, until recently, the youngest known divorced person in the world.Slender with thick hair and a shy smile, Ali made headlines in Yemen last April when she walked out on a man more than three times her age, to whom her father had married her off. It was an act driven by terror and despair. (See the top 10 crime stories of 2008.)
Nujood's ordeal began last February, when the family gathered to celebrate her wedding to a motorcycle deliveryman in his 30s. She first set eyes on the groom when she took her marriage vows. After spending her wedding night with her parents and 15 brothers and sisters, Nujood was taken by her new husband to his family village, where, she says, he beat and raped her every night. After two nightmarish months he allowed her to visit her parents, who rebuffed her pleas to end the marriage.
Nujood finally found her moment to escape one day, when her mother gave her a few pennies and sent her out to buy bread. Instead she took a bus to the center of the capital, Sanaa -- a city of 3 million people -- where she hailed a taxi and asked to be taken to the courthouse. She had never been inside a courtroom but had once seen one on television, she says, and knew it was a place where people went for help. There she sat silently on a bench, uncertain as to what to do, while crowds of people scurried past, scarcely glancing at the quiet child. It was only once the courthouse emptied during the lunch recess that the judge noticed her and asked why she was there. "I came for a divorce," she told him. Horrified, he took her to his house to play with his 8-year-old daughter, and granted the divorce two days later.
Commenter Charles Weatherly at the LAT blog lays out how Islam sanctions such barbarism:
Michelle, you asked:"what man in his right mind finds a 10 year old as a suitable wife?"
The answer: Muhammad, the founder of Islam.
Muhammad's favorite wife, A'isha, was only 6 years old when Muhammad married her.
Here are the verses from Islamic scripture detailing the marriage:
(Sunan of Abu Dawud, Volume 2, Verse 2116)
"A'isha said, 'The Apostle of Allah married me when I was seven years old. He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old.'"(Sahih Bukhari, Voume 7, Verse 65)
"Narrated A'isha that the prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated the marriage when she was nine years old."(Sahih Muslim, Volume 8, Verse 3311)
"A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle married her when she was six years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine (bride meaning sexually active), and her dolls were with her."Yes, you read that right, "her dolls were with her".
How can a modern, Muslim man marry a 10 year old? As the saying goes in the Muslim community, "if it's good enough for Muhammad, then it's good enough for me."
(Willie Nelson)
"Mama's, don't let your babies grow up to be Muslim child brides."Charles Weatherly,
Santa Barbara, California
"Muhammad's favorite wife, A'isha, was only 6 years old when Muhammad married her." Yes we know this but 6 years back then would be 16 now. Yes still kind of gorse but not quite as horrible as it sounds. The typical marriage age back then was about 14.
Also I'd like to point out that Yemen is a Muslim country (99%) and the judge who is almost certainly Muslim was "Horrified, he took her to his house to play with his 8-year-old daughter, and granted the divorce two days later." Now this kind of puts a solid hole in the Islam is all evil concept. So clearly not all Muslims are ok with old farts marrying 10 year olds.
Our average marriage age is 26.1 (wiki) but people still can and do get married at 16 I think the youngest legal marriage is 14 with parental consent. Judging all Muslims by these outliers would be the same as judging you and me by cousins Cletus and Clementine of deep woods Georgia or back woods upstate Vermont.
Are there injustices in the Mid east that have to be fought, yes and yes it sucks and yes we have to fight it but they are not our enemy as a whole, at least not all of them. Yaffa is a Muslim by her own word in the end of the first article.
vlad at February 6, 2009 6:01 AM
Is there anything new in this? Religion has been used to justify the worst in human behavior since we have stopping crawling on all four on the ground.
This being said, I don't see how we can find an excuse for this level of barbarity. I am always amazed by the silence from the Muslim world about this when we compare it to the outrage caused by an handful of cartoons. Something is rotten in the Kingdom of Allah...
Toubrouk at February 6, 2009 7:07 AM
Outlier Vlad? Proof please. Her family didn't seem to have a problem with it. What's the percentage of Muslims who find this acceptable? 2% or 35%? There are too many Muslims who take the Qur'an literally (it is meant to be taken literally). They don't rationalize it the way you just did. They really think it's ok to marry a 6 year old because Muhammed did.
As for being our enemy. That depends on what your ideology is. If you are a leftist who believes in socialism, then you probably have a lot in common with Muslims. If you love liberty ... not so much.
Charles at February 6, 2009 7:53 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/02/06/wafa_speaks_aga.html#comment-1625243">comment from CharlesThe Quran is intended to be taken literally, and Muhammed is supposed to be an example to live by. Muhammed had slaves, you're supposed to do it, too. Muhammed fucked children, you're supposed to do it, too. Lovely, huh?
Luckily or unluckily, Muslims are probably the most illiterate group on the planet, perhaps because a religion that breeds societies of child-fuckers who treat women like dogs is not a fertile place for democracy, literacy and scientific methodology. In fact, rational thought is frowned upon in favor of Quranic "medicine," which is really fucking hilarious (while pathetically sad). Take three raisins and call me in the morning!
Amy Alkon
at February 6, 2009 8:07 AM
Vlad, please note that "cousin-marrying hillbilly" is a term of derision in America. Not to mention vastly exaggerated.
Muslims (in the middle east, anyhow) are far more tolerant of pederasty and incest than most people are comfortable acknowledging. This may be cultural rather than religious, but given the genesis of Islam, it's entirely possible that such behaviours were codified in the Hadith and Quran for the purpose of getting people on board.
Which makes the Christian co-opting of pagan rituals look tame by comparison.
brian at February 6, 2009 8:13 AM
You know what Islam needs? A website like this for the Qur'an:
http://www.thebricktestament.com/job/god_tortures_job/jb02_07.html
I think the little Lego people really bring the Bible stories to life for me.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at February 6, 2009 8:29 AM
Sick sick sick. And Vlad, 6 years old hasn't been sexually mature in the human species ever. Not even in most primates below us. So it's never been corespondant to a 16 year old now. The age of puberty is actually dropping, so back then kids were probably less physically mature at 9 than kids are now. They might have been more socially mature in that they had responsibilities and weren't allowed to play all day, but that hardly excuses rape.
At least, if christians did what muslims do, we'd all be unmarried and presumably chaste like Jesus. That's better than raping children. I am so tired of people comparing us, as if there's no difference.
momof3 at February 6, 2009 10:15 AM
"Her family didn't seem to have a problem with it." Neither did the Mexican who sold his daughter for Gatorade and beer. He was in this country (illegally but still) and he sure as hell wasn't Muslim. I'm not arguing that the average Mid easterner isn't a cave dwelling savage. I'm just not sure the majority of Muslims coming here are ok with or support this behavior. As the article says.
"There are too many Muslims who take the Qur'an literally" Yeah and, not arguing that. That doesn't mean that the majority do. You have no more proof that the majority feel this way than I do that this is an outlier.
"Muslims (in the middle east, anyhow) " Again I'm not arguing that the whole region is filled with fucking nutter, just that not all Muslims are nutter.
"societies of child-fuckers who treat women like dogs is not a fertile place for democracy, literacy and scientific methodology." At one point the Mid East was the place for science and medicine when Europe used exersisums (sp) and science was considered heresy. The Area was heavily Muslim back then too. So something changed other than Islam to turn the place into the hell that we know now.
"Muslims are probably the most illiterate group on the planet" Right (I think it cause the illiterate are easily lead) so consequently they are entirely dependent on their literate brethren to read and interpret the will of Allah.
vlad at February 6, 2009 10:21 AM
"The age of puberty is actually dropping, so back then kids were probably less physically mature at 9 than kids are now." No. Puberty can start as early as 6-7 in humans. Primates can be 4 or less.
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/6/1988.full
The age of maturity appears to be related to availability of food. Being the bride of the profit would have given a lavish life style by modern standards and extravagant in the extreme for the time.
Child brides were practiced in India in the 14th century, a girl who was over 12 was considered to old. Which was not a Muslim country. Quit honestly in the villages in the rural China rural Africa, etc. The same thing is done today. The practice of child brides while savage has nothing to do with Islam.
"At least, if christians did what muslims do, we'd all be unmarried and presumably chaste like Jesus." You mean like priests?
vlad at February 6, 2009 10:39 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/02/06/wafa_speaks_aga.html#comment-1625275">comment from vladThis isn't the 14th century. The practice is barbaric, and rubber-stamped by the Quran and Islam.
Amy Alkon
at February 6, 2009 10:44 AM
"This isn't the 14th century." That depends on where you live. Bride burning still occurs in rural India and don't get me started on funky shit that happens to girls in Africa regardless of the Religious background of the village. We (westerners) maybe in a more enlightened age but large sections of the world is not.
Also rubber-stamped by rural villages out in the middle of fucking no where. Before the wide spread of education and literacy Christianity condoned the same thing. Primitives resort to violence.
The judge in the modern city in Yemen was certainly under Muslim influence if not one himself. The problem is education and literacy which is beginning to rise especially among girls in the Mid east. The militants are striking against them and we should strike at the militants. However the girls going to the schools are Muslim, the parents sending them are Muslims, and the teachers teaching them are Muslims.
vlad at February 6, 2009 11:03 AM
Vlad, that's why we shouldn't be letting these 14th-century barbarians into our country. They can't fit in a Western culture. If they want to live in that way, let them do it there. Our immigration laws are nuts.
kishke at February 6, 2009 12:16 PM
Three cheers for the judge. (Yes, I would like to think of his actions as routine and ordinary, but in the context in which he lives, they aren't.)
vlad, while puberty CAN start as early as age 6 in humans, that's pretty darn rare. The age of puberty has demonstrably been dropping over the last several generations, a fact which has occasioned much study; it does indeed seem to be related to percentage of body fat. While I'm sure that Aisha ate better than the average person of her time, she still almost definitely ate a diet lower in calories than the average Western girl today, and walked much more, leading to a far lower body fat percentage.
That having been said, the more important factor here is that, whatever Muhammad did, there are people willing to look for any excuse to marry off little girls. Which perpetuates a vicious cycle of low status of women, which in turn leads to a host of other social problems.
The...well, not funny, but ironic thing is, all of the Muslim women I know in the U.S. have not only attended college, but gotten professional degrees as a matter of course. If any of them had talked about getting married in high school, their parents would have pitched a fit - marriage is something you do after you enter law school, or med school, or business school. Note, though, that all of them live *here*. We're seeing more and more of a divide between socially functional cultures and socially dysfunctional cultures; I'm getting more and more pessimistic about the ability of the latter to evolve into the former.
marion at February 6, 2009 12:20 PM
There's a certainty about life in a place like Saudi Arabia that's comforting to humans.
Life in America is marked by uncertainty at every corner. What reason do they have to move from certainty to uncertainty? From their perspective, our risk-reward calculation is all wrong.
brian at February 6, 2009 1:43 PM
Gah. The argument whether or not a female is sexually mature detracts from the issue that she still had no say in the matter. Whatsoever. They treat their goats better than their girls and women; at least the goats get a beauty pageant to validate their desirability. The girls are less than goats to them....
...again, gah.
p.s. I've missed you guys!!! ~sniffs~
Juliana at February 6, 2009 2:41 PM
There's a certainty about life in a place like Saudi Arabia that's comforting to humans.
While I don't disagree with your point, I think the type of certainty in Saudi Arabia is far more comforting to the male humans that live there than it is to the female humans.
And, you know...if life in the Saudi paradise is so comforting, why are they producing guys who hijack planes and fly them into buildings? Why the perceived need to torture terrorists to get information out of them? Why the violence of the religious police? Etc. Just because the Saudis are scared of change doesn't mean they are comforted by their day-to-day life. In fact, one could argue that the society is destabilizing and producing suicidal terrorist types because most Saudis see no possibility for comfort anywhere. They hate how their lives make them feel, but they're terrified of the prospect of "modernizing" their society.
marion at February 7, 2009 12:22 AM
Marion -
All of that is precisely the result of the certainty their society provides.
The men and women of Saudi Arabia know that if they do what the imams tell them, they go to paradise.
Why do the women put up with being chattel? A combination of "Allah sez" and the fact that they don't have the physical power to force change.
Why do the men become shaheed. Because they know that they go straight to paradise when they die.
They aren't afraid of modernization. They honestly believe that the modern world is a temptation from satan to draw them from the true path to Allah.
And the reason we rough them up? Simple. Once they realize that Allah isn't striking us down, they start to doubt whether Allah's really on their side.
Turning them all loose like we have been emboldens them and they return to terrorism more convinced than ever of the rightness of their cause.
We should execute each and every one of them once they stop providing useful information. Barring that, simply stop taking prisoners. Then nobody can complain about the Geneva Convention.
brian at February 7, 2009 4:22 AM
> There's a certainty about life
> in a place like Saudi Arabia
> that's comforting to humans.
You're right... Fucker.
But...
> certainty in Saudi Arabia is far
> more comforting to the male
> humans that live there than
> it is to the female
Marion's right too. Angel!
Feminism is the fastest, cheapest, and surest path to modernization for any primitive culture. Humans do their best in competition, and nobody likes losing to a girl, not even another girl.
No... Please, no. Thank you. Thank you very, very much. I'm here all week... Please tip your waitress via PayPal, link at left. Thanks again. Thanks so much. Goodnight.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at February 7, 2009 6:26 PM
Don't miss this story. You don't have to be Muslim to be considered property.
Radwaste at February 10, 2009 5:50 PM
You obviously haven't met very many Muslims. You're not only prejudiced and biased - you're a real racist, too. Go out and make some Muslim friends. Reach out to them. And for God's sake, stop getting your information off of YouTube and Wikipedia! Go do some real research!
"Vlad, please note that "cousin-marrying hillbilly" is a term of derision in America. Not to mention vastly exaggerated."
- You're guilty of the doing the exact same thing, Amy, my friend. Exaggerating, generalizing, and pretending you know how Muslims think. Why don't you look into your own backyard and see how many cases of incest are present in your own country. And I certainly don't think Josef Fritzl was Muslim. Hmmm? Grow up and go explore the world! Get out of your little computer room and meet some real people. We all know that a whole bunch of Catholic priests, and Hindu temple leaders have sexually abused a whole bunch of little kids - we think of them as lunatics, because we've met nice religious people too. The bad ones don't represent the whole bunch. Know that every culture is not like yours, so don't act like you know all about it.
Sarah at May 3, 2009 12:10 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/02/06/wafa_speaks_aga.html#comment-1646133">comment from SarahSarah, nice try, but I'm actually informed about Islam, having read copiously about it since 9/11. Before 9/11, I thought of Muslims like I think of astrology buffs -- people who believe in something silly, but of no interest to me. It is not racist but factual to state the stuff I do. Feel free to dispute any piece of information I put out. I'm happy to correct anything that I'm wrong on. But, Mohammed himself took Aisha as a wife at six and had sex with her at nine, and Mohammed's actions are to be emulated by Muslims. Which is why you see cases of Muslims taking these child brides, and the primitive states like Saudi Arabia allowing it. There is incest in all cultures, but the Quran makes it okay. Joseph Fritzl, on the other hand, is in jail. I'm no friend to religion of any kind -- deplore the evidence-free belief in god -- but of all the religions out there, Islam is the dangerous one: with many, many followers who seek to convert or kill the rest of us, per the dictates of the Quran, and install "The New Caliphate" around the world. If you truly are a woman, you should be glad I'm sounding the alarm. Read Wafa Sultan, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Nonie Darwish, and other courageous people -- courageous because as apostates, they are supposed to be murdered by other Muslims. Do you not find this barbaric?
P.S. Something I've learned: People who use "Grow up!" or "Get a life" or accusations that information comes from YouTube or Wikipedia are generally people without an argument to stand on. You clearly don't have one.
What mosque do you belong to, incidentally?
Amy Alkon
at May 3, 2009 1:10 PM
Ah, turns out Sarah's commenting from India, the location where all those Muslims hugged all those people at the hotel. Isn't that what happened? And then they went on to hug more people at a Jewish Center. How odd that they'd go after Jews, and torture them in a horrible way. Oh, I mean, hug them.
Sarah, why are you speaking out here when you should be speaking out against the many who celebrate murder in the name of Allah? I'm just using my words (still a free country here, unlike so many Muslim nations). Why not use your time in a more valuable way, to speak out against homicide bombings and beheadings.
Hey, what do you think of the lady who took a kid by the hand and blew up a bunch of other ladies in a line for food AID in Iraq?
Is it "racist" to deplore such behavior -- murder in the name of religion that is endorsed by imams, but not by rabbis or priests in the name of their religions -- or is it just civilized and humane?
Amy Alkon at May 3, 2009 1:23 PM
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