"the Islamic faith, which has done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the better, including my own country."

That statement begs the "3 things" question.

As in: Name 3 things Islam has done to shape the U.S. for the better?

I bet Obama's head would explode trying to answer that question or at the very least his teleprompter would blow a fuse.

Of course, the lapdog press would never ask him that so his teleprompter is safe.

I know everybody around here is scared of teh mooslims. But if you don't grasp the merits of playing nice with the Turks (a NATO member), then you're really crazy. From strategic perspective, we must distinguish between parts of the Muslim world we can and can't work with.

Oh, and Sean, if you can't name at least a few good things this Islamic world created, you're a piss-poor student of history. But that's OK, keep it ign'ant - that's always win.

Cheezburg -

Name ONE thing that the "Islamic world" created.

One. Besides mandatory clitorectomy and garbage-bag dresses with eye-slits, that is.

And playing nice with the Turks is kinda pointless for a bunch of reasons. First, NATO is toothless, and is standing in defiance of the US. Second, Turkey has an Islamist (as in muslim brotherhood) leader. He's not likely to be interested in further westernization of Turkey. In fact, EU membership is pretty much out of the question for Turkey right now.

The parts of the muslim world we can work with are probably limited to Albania and Egypt at this point.

al-jabr (algebra)

Guess they don't teach engineers where the math came from.

Playing nice with Turks is a good idea. If you think the conflict between Islam and the West is going to go on for a while, then you need to think beyond current leadership.

Cheezewhiz,

Name 3 things Islam has done to better the USA.

Go ahead, we'll wait.

I've listed one. So two more: crop rotation, and the windmill.

cheez - Algebra came about in the very beginning of Islam, and was pretty much derivative of the works of ancient Greece and Egypt. And within 200 years of the creation of Islam (when they really got cooking on the whole conquest thing) pretty much all intellectual, cultural, and technological development halted. Which is why the Europeans were able to come out of the Dark Ages and kick the living fuck out of them.

OK, so even being generous and granting you one, I'd have to say it was a case of inevitable discovery. Still doesn't justify the President sucking up.

Oh, and if history is anything to go by, the only way Turkey changes leadership now is through yet another military coup. This is not a regime we want to be cozy with.

North American Indians were doing crop rotation when we got here in the 1500s, and there's no indication that they had any contact with the Arab or Islamic world.

Have you got something more recent, say in the last 500 years perhaps?

geez guys, use your heads.

It isn't that Islam never added anything to the world, it's that they are no longer doing so. There was a period where their culture flourished...
But that was 1000 years ago, cheezeburg. Somewhere along the way, they wandered into the dark ages and haven't emerged yet. I'd have to say what they are really needing is a "Reformation" but where is their Luther or Calvin? That might start them on the road to distangling their cultures from their religion. It took hundreds of years for this to happen in the west.

On the other hand, the guys in power AREN'T illiterate, and they may have already moved to post modern ideas of power. They don't want to move their people forward, they want to consolidate their power. Power over the masses, and power over women... then the takeover of the world.

These guys want the global caliphate only if they get to rule it.

Meanwhile we got a problem. Much of the Muslim world tends to walk away from secular governments. Those are the governments we need to partner with. This is true of the Turks. We can encourage that all we want, but in the end they have to want it. Wherein lies the rub. It's hard to vote for a secular government when the imam is holding a gun to your head...

If the Muslim world is a monolith, all of them would-be terrorists, then we might as well get around to wiping it out. If you think otherwise (and we better hope that's the case), then it's probably worth being respectful to NATO allies, even if they aren't BFFs. It's not like we haven't ever cozied up to far more distasteful regimes than that of Turkey to advance our strategic objectives in the past.

Have you got something more recent, say in the last 500 years perhaps?

That wasn't the question!

OK, if we assume that derivative works count as "create", and we count a marginal muslim (Persia after recent conquest), then you can have Algebra, and therefore my conditions were met.

You named ONE thing. It was 1200 years ago.

Perhaps we can say that Islam WAS a great civilization then. Because they certainly aren't today. Sure, there are individual muslims who are engineers, scientists, mathematicians, etc. And they are almost exclusively located outside the Islamic world.

"One. Besides mandatory clitorectomy and garbage-bag dresses with eye-slits, that is."

Those things go way back before Islam, but the question is why Islam didn't do more - anything - to stop them. Although the garbage dresses with eye slits make some kind of sense in places with continuous wind and continuous dust. Just barely.

The intellectual death of Islam was declaring that interpretation of the law was finsihed. So while Judaism went on to abolish the honor kilings prescribed in the Torah,a nd lots of other practises, Islam festered, and that attitude poisons every other kind of intellectual endeavor.

For awhile after 9/11 there was this buzz the "understand Islam" better and try to see soem good in it. We were treated to list of Islamic firsts, things the supposedly arrogant europeans got from Islam (becaue that's the measure of everything, how Europe got this or that; it's the center of the world after all.) Everyone one of them turns out to have come from India, pre-Islamic Iran or Greece.

"Although the garbage dresses with eye slits make some kind of sense in places with continuous wind and continuous dust. Just barely." - Jim.

If that were true, you might see a guy wearing one, except you don't see guys wearing mobile sweat tents.

>>It isn't that Islam never added anything to the world,

Yes it is

>>There was a period where their culture flourished...

And oddly enough its called pre-islamic

And didnt we have this conversation a few months ago?

Wow.

Just like somebody claiming prayer cured their uncle, if you're going to claim a religion did something good (or bad), you have to show the direct connection.

Have some discipline.

No you know I'm not a fan of Religion in any shape or form. I think it's served it's purpose and should now be allowed to wither away.

I also don't think it's going to happen, such is life, people do love to cling to ideas against the evidence.

But I think with Islam it's important that we convince people within the religion that if they are going to exist in the modern world then chunks of it need to change. The Reformation destroyed the power of the Christian church and I think Islam needs it's own Reformation where they take chunks of the Quran and go 'Well yeah sure it was OK to kill or convert unbelievers centuries ago but we aren't desert nomads any more'

Just as the laws in the Old Testament have been generally ignored (except for the food bits) I think the same needs to happen with Islam.

Personally I think the western world should be embracing Islam but stopping a couple of it's rather dim ideas. Firstly the whole, you can't criticise religion thing, balls to that, if your beliefs can't take criticism you need some new ones. And secondly is the whole separate set of laws, I don't mind a relgion having a set of rules for marriages and stuff as long as it also adheres to the laws everyone else adheres to.

So, for instance, rape within marrige is a no no, women are not chattels, it doesn't matter what religion you follow.

And unfortunately it's the last two areas I think we, especially here in Europe, are failing on.

Sigh.

"but where is their Luther or Calvin?"

Luther, splitting the church into factions, and Calvin, insisting that you and your life are as filthy rags before the Lord, might be akin to what they've already got.

I'd suggest a healthy dose of Buddhism, a couple of blended fruity rum drinks, and a hot date. These folks need to unclench.

I think the Alhambra in Granada, Spain, is really pretty. It has some nice gardens and a nice view.

I also like prayer rugs, Islamic art (geometric designs), and Arabic calligraphy - though it's a bitch to read.

But otherwise, I think Islam and Sharia should be outlawed as a terrible political regime. I see the situation Obama as a politico is in, and I can understand his strategy. I only hope it works.

On another note, I read this today in a student paper:

"There is a time and place for everything, and religion is expected to be practiced in private. Religion and sex are both deeply personal things; we don’t allow people to have sex on the sidewalks, even if they are standing out of the way of pedestrian traffic."

- http://www.dailynexus.com/article.php?a=18617